Martian

This is a good point. On the other hand, I'm all for efficiency. If it's something that matters, take effective action. To use our very own forum as an example, I might take action against a spammer by using that handy 'report post' button in the lower left corner. This is effective action, as it solves the problem and deals with the offender. Replying with a rant against spammers, on the other hand, may make me feel better but accomplishes nothing.

In the grand scheme of things, some fool on a cell phone isn't really that big of a deal to me in most situations. It's one of those things that I'd probably just ignore on the premise that this person isn't worth taking the time and effort to deal with the problem properly. However, I can see by this thread that I am apparently in the minority with that sentiment. I can understand feeling the need to do something about it, but what does snapping at the person accomplish, other than making one feel better? How does it solve the problem? I feel confident in asserting that the girl in the OP will not change her ways based on the encounter. After all, ignorance arises from an inability to appreciate any perspective apart from one's own, and nothing relayed seems to have created an effective deterrent from her perspective.

I suppose the question, then, is what would constitute effective action in this situation. My first response would be to report the situation to the staff and allow them to exercise their authority in dealing with it (akin to the real-world 'report post' button). If the staff were already aware of it and not taking action, then I don't really know what the next step would be.

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I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
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- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

Plan9

Yes, yes... Halx = designated genius.

These situations are only minor annoyances and yet very important.

Do we police ourselves or designate someone as "The Man" to police us?

...

I prefer blunt force trauma.

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Martian

I don't generally do the Halx worship. Although admitting that might get me banned, or something. Or maybe mobbed by angry users?

I really tend to think of it as a minor annoyance myself, which is why I said I probably wouldn't bother. It's not worth my time. But if one feels the need to take action, what is the action that will result in maximum impact?

Blunt force trauma is your answer to everything. The part that surprises me is how often it works.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

ShaniFaye

and to me carrying on a phone conversation in a library is unforgivable for obvious reasons

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Plan9

Wanna fight?

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Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Halx

I wouldn't have drilled in the point. I completely agree with letting the person know that they were being rude by raising the noise level in a quiet zone, but I don't agree with going any further. As Martian points out, there is a limit to an individual's authority regarding house rules. Touching someone else's property (not to mention using it in a threatening manner) without their permission is not within that limit.

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allaboutmusic

Well it's not something you see everyday, but people do get the shit beaten out of them for no reason here. Verbal abuse is pretty commonplace, and I can think of two people I know personally who have had teenagers come up to them and smash their nose in, and walk off. I used to teach at an inner city school in south London and took the bus home. I'd say that I saw an altercation of some kind on the bus every couple of weeks. Granted, not the most upmarket area.

funydjane

Yes, but it's a right-media perpetuated myth that standing up for yourself or even leaving the house puts you at high risk of being physically injured. Crime is going down, not exploding like you hear everywhere.

I've explained myself. Care to say why libraries need to be completely silent at all times to the point of making them worse and fulfilling their purpose?

ShaniFaye

Where did I say completely silent? I said I dont want to listen to numerous phone conversations while I am trying to concentrate on research....same as others dont want to listen to conversations while they are concentrating on a movie

Its just plain rude....if you feel the need to talk on the phone take it outside

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I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

funydjane

When did I say it is acceptable to have phone conversations in a library?

ShaniFaye

I guess the same place I said a library had to be completely silent

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I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

Martian

I am hereby meeting my responsibility as a member and attempting to uphold forum guidelines by derailing an altercation. Opinions are not things that we hold for the sole purpose of offending each other and it is entirely possible for two people to disagree about something and still get along.

Now ladies, I suggest you hug.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

ShaniFaye

Hey now, I already apologized so there!!!

(and for the record I said quiet....not silent :P )

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I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

Nimetic

Ah. This is an interesting point.

Halx, I think you are technically correct. On the other hand, we are all human. And sometimes a little bit of over-reaction, although illegitimate as you say, does seem to get the job done.

ursae_

I work in a library and am a student -- I'm very happy to hear you responded like this.

Still...
"What really shocked me, though, was that this fluently English-speaking, well-educated Californian had no idea that it wasn't appropriate to talk above a whisper in a library, much less chat on a cell phone."

what is this trash about?
Would an immigrant speaking broken English not have been expected to know better than to be rude in a library?
Libraries are not exclusive to the U.S., and I assure you common courtesy is not either.

Shauk

Color me rude then.

I have important calls that are sometimes time sensitive.

I don't buy in to "unwritten rules"

I will assume nothing about needing to be quiet in a library if there are no signs that indicate that as a policy. I've been on buses with 50 people that weren't talking and that shit annoys me, I hate living in such an anti-social society that everyone has to avert their eyes 5 degrees and slightly downward and take care not to sit too close to another person due to being in such a PC society now.

Now, if she was just babbling and interrupting your concentration, it would have been much simpler to take the direct approach and ask her to get off the phone while she was still on it instead of making a public spectacle of it. It would at least given her the option to go out front to finish the call.

and to WK

did you seriously say to use the cell phone in the car?
thats illegal in some states (like WA for example)



anyways, if there isn't a posted rule or request to not use the cell phone (like there are at any movie theater) then goddamnit, I'm going to use the service I'M PAYING FOR every month if I get a call.

meh.

in the same breath though, I do take care to be polite to people in the area if they look like they can't be disturbed.

Willravel

There are some places not to use a cell phone. The library is one of them.

This is an unwritten rule along the same lines as "Don't wake up on fire" or "stop throwing rocks at that hungry lion" is an unwritten rule.

Had I been in genuinegirly's shoes, I would have probably said, "You're either an asshole or an idiot, because those are the only two groups of people that would use their cell phone in a fucking library."

Shauk

well admittedly i'm a bit of an asshole at times but is there a reason that a library must be quiet? I find it eerie. Maybe it's my tenacity to be stuck in a creative music mood 24/7 but silence is like walking death to me.

PonyPotato

A reason for a library to be quiet: People are fuckin' reading and studying, duh.

http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2005...1505194124.txt

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Willravel

That's why god gave us the iPod. I always have mine with me.

Shauk

so, is it impossible for someone to hold a quiet conversation on the phone?

I dunno about you but I often don't need to talk any louder than I need to talk to the librarian when the mic is half an inch from my mouth.

I don't deny that it should be quiet, I only question the reason why. Again, I have no problem with my ability to tune out and focus on what i'm reading or studying. Hell I can listen to music and watch tv at the same time, read a book and music at the same time, I guess I don't "get it" with this "omg sensory overload" barrier of sanctity that people append to the library. I just don't think cell phones are the culprit here, loudmouths on the other hand...

Maybe it's just "my generation" or something, but I've come to the conclusion that if I desire "alone time" or "quiet time" that the safest place is the bathroom. Second place, Bedroom.

I've never expected a PUBLIC place where you introduce the chaos factor of a multicultural merging and different backgrounds to ever be a quiet place. I always viewed it as a facility to get in, get your shit, check it out, and take it to a quiet place. I have never been to a quiet library, it's a place where information resides, and humans exchange information via speech as well as writing.

Don't take me too seriously though, I'm not one of those people who spend a lot of time at a library, I dont impose my beliefs on others in public facilities and I wouldn't hang out somewhere where others would do that to me anyway.

Baraka_Guru

Shauk, some people don't have the luxury of their own private bathroom, or quiet bedroom. People go to the library because it is one of the few places where quiet is upheld as a code of conduct. I come from a big family. I went to a big university. I've always had loud roommates. The library really was a sanctuary.

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Grasshopper Green

On the rare occasion that I am in a library, it is to study and do research, NOT just to read a book, I can do that at home. I can not fully concentrate when someone is talking nearby. Whispering...fine. Shuffling papers, fine. Talking on a cell phone? Not fine.

Talk all you want in the store...on the bus...in a restaurant. I might find it rude or uncouth, but I'm not going to get that upset about it. In a library...it's discourteous and uncalled for.

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Willravel

Psst... I'm 24.

Baraka_Guru

Yeah, I'm of the same generation, too.

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Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
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Bossnass

I've spent way too much time in libraries. Even with a large well lit desk and a comfortable chair in my 'den' at home, I've found a quiet carrel in a library is the most effective place to learn and study. I'm fortunate enough to have attended a large enough university that there were half a dozen decent libraries with clearly posted 'quiet' and 'silent' floors. I haven't been to a Public library for years, but I don't think I've ever been to a library that didn't have some sort of signage requiring quiet.

As much as I've tried to have my headphones on, sometimes I just couldn't focus with any distraction (Calc IV and Differential Equations II come to mind, years later. Reviewing a bid document last month too). If I can hear you with my ear plugs in, then we have a problem. I've shhhed. I've asked nicely. I've said 'hey, this is a library- shut the fuck up'.

Mileage varied, but I have very low tolerance of cell phone users. Put it on vibrate, then leave it sitting on a hard surface? You're a moron. You think you can chat in the library? You're a moron. Because it is a 'public space'? Yeah, you know.

That makes three.

Fotzlid

I find cellphones in general to be an annoyance.

Small electronic leashes.

I find it amazing that so many people have so much important stuff to talk about that they can't wait till they get home.

blah blah blah blah

STFU already

your conversations aren't that interesting

Shauk

right cuz I wanna wait till I go home to find out that someone was trying to invite me to a social engagement while I was still in downtown seattle, or I wanna wait until I'm in Renton after work to check the message from my future landlord saying he needs an additional 40$ for a credit check so he can give me the keys to my house so I can start moving over the weekend, saving me an extra 20 mile trip, or...

I dunno, people don't call me for stupid "omg I got my nails done today" bullshit anyways.

Fotzlid

then, based on what i overhear all the time, you are an exception.

ShaniFaye

so lets see...are churches, funerals, and school classes ok for those of you that dont seem to care about respecting "quiet" places"

I have to say my mind here...this thread is totally pissing me off, thank god I have taught my 14 year old to have more respect for other people than some people here. Just because there are places where the "public" gather, it doesnt make them appropriate places for cell phone use.

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PonyPotato

QFT.

And when it comes to the "generational" thing, I'm 22. I had the worst roommates in the history of the world my freshman year at OSU, and thankfully there were libraries and quiet study rooms where I could go to regain my sanity and get stuff done.

Shauk, have you ever actually used a library for its intended purpose? Not just picking up books and leaving? I think you might be more inclined to understand the argument against cell phones if you've had to sit through 10 conversations about absolutely nothing/who got laid by whom on Friday night/how drunk so-and-so was at that party, etc. Sure, the occasional "yes, that meeting time is fine, see you then" is important, but you are still disturbing library patrons in a quiet area by answering it. The best solution? Grab a seat near a "loud" area (elevator, front desk, etc.) and stand up and move away from the quiet area to answer your phone. It's common courtesy, and it should be seen more often!

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Redlemon

Yes, it is impossible. When two people are having a conversation, it is a constant level of sound, and it is easier for a third party to tune it out. A phone conversation, on the other hand, has only one side, with pauses. The start / stop / start nature of one side of the conversation is significantly more intrusive to the third party.

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Shauk

Churches:
Funerals: I've seen cell phones used at funerals before, the U.S. is a large place, and the workforce isn't always going to allow for time off. Sometimes people need to call the person that missed the funeral to grieve with them remotely. This is kind of an exception, but I mean would you flip out at the widow who's on the phone crying to her daughter who's 2000 miles away?
Aside from the "ceremony" itself, funerals aren't always quiet, it's people talking in many small pockets about the person who died, and usually only briefly before it goes off on a tangent of some sort. The only "silence" is the ceremony of giving a moment of silence.

it's amazing what people don't hear if you think this is "silence"

School Classes: Theres no unwritten rule, it's generally quite fucking clear as to what is acceptable and not in classrooms.

wow what a passive aggressive post.

don't mention me by name or anything but still go on to be like "my 14 year old is better than you"

and people say i'm rude? for challenging people to provide a reason for silence?

Hell, for the sake of argument, lets take a look at a wikipedia entry for Library

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library


not once is there anything mentioned about being a place for people to quietly do anything. It goes on to state, the sole purpose of the library is to be a collection of information, it also goes on to state that "Library patrons may not know how to use a library effectively. This can be due to lack of early exposure, shyness, or anxiety and fear of displaying ignorance. In United States public libraries, beginning in the 19th century these problems drove the emergence of the library instruction movement, which advocated library user education"


I may be pissing people off in this thread but I think the way people are so "Matter of factly " posting stuff about libraries being quiet and saying that their sole purpose is to do stuff like homework, or write some paper about something that some teacher assigned to xyz student for no other reason than to have something to assign a grade to, without any information aside from their personal upbringing and opinion pieces to back it up is a bit bold.

I'm borderline insulted in return that instead of a debate, i'm met with a passive aggressive insult to my experience in life and my "respect" for others is put in to question.


If you must know, i've never even used my phone in a library, so keep that in mind before people start jumping my shit about this topic.

and that's exactly what I'd expect I'd do.

Barstool

Personally, I think phone etiquette is out the window these days. It's a damned shame. I get offended when someone's phone goes off at dinner, or when someone has "call waiting" and a second phone call interrupts our conversation (Sorry, the other line is ringing, BRB!). Ugh.

PonyPotato

I went to brunch with one of my friends this morning (and two of her friends I'm not very close to). She spent at least five minutes on the phone while the three of us are sitting there waiting for her to answer a question asked before her phone rang. Rude? Yes.

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ShaniFaye

Lets see...I dont think I said anything about the visitation, I said the funeral....which means the actual service at the funeral home, church or grave side.

How was what I said p/a? I think I VERY plainly stated that I have taught my child to respect others and I'm not going to apologize that you dont see to feel others are due the same respect, I teach her to make sure that her behavior goes with the posted rules of a location.

And just because the libraries you've been in dont have signs doesnt mean all of them dont, in fact I've never been in one that DIDNT and that goes for public libraries as well as university libraries and specific research libraries

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I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

Shauk

I rest my case

genuinegirly

Martian, you're my hero.

I tend to give a little slack to someone who doesn't seem to come from the same general educational background as me. Not meant in offense, just saying they had been through the same education I had, and yet didn't understand a very basic rule. I probably wouldn't have said anything to someone who was carrying on a phone conversation in Swahili, for fear of running into a language berrrior.

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snowy

Both the university library here and the public library here have large signs saying no cellphones here. Once you step through the foyer and into the library, quiet is expected. Now, in my library, I know that the 3rd floor overlooking the entrance to the library tends to be the noisiest place because that's where people in groups get together to study. But if they're going to be holding conversations, most people get a study room, and take the conversation behind closed doors. There are also 2 quiet floors (out of 6 total) where no conversation is allowed, period. If you are caught being noisy, or talking on a cellphone, you will be asked to leave--regardless of where you are in the library. Even in the computer commons, there are several signs reminding people that the library is a study environment, and as such should be kept quiet. They deliberately opened a "collaborative learning center" within the library for people doing group work so that their noise would be kept minimal in the rest of the library.

Every university library I've been in has had a similar policy.

As for where you'll find me in mine...5th floor (quiet floor), at the back, in a study carrel with "PINK TACO" scrawled across it in Sharpie. No, I didn't do it, but it still tells me which carrel is mine.

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