Canadian and other Foreign visitors to the US, why do you tip less?
 

I used to give the phenomena a pass, because there was the issue of unfavorable currency exchange rates, now that is not an issue.

I would like to know why you dine in our restaurants and patronize other horpitality service businesses, and for the most part, tip significantly less than American residents do for these same services?

It is a big deal, because, I work on a professional wait staff, in a fine dining establishment. My partner and I have five tables assigned to us. We tip out a busboy, food runner, and bar staff. The two of us share between us, 75 cents of every gratuity dollar you leave us. Our hourly rate has not changed, since it was lowered in 1997. It is a floor, in states without seperate minimum wage statutes, of $2.13 per hour. This floor was not changed in the recent federal minimum wage increase legislation.

My point is, we are at your mercy. You come into our establishment, and you are assigned a table. According to the following data, I can expect, on average, a "pay cut of 21 to 25 percent if you are seated at one of my tables, vs. an American patron.

In the "Canadian" thread, there was a strong reaction from some posters, at the idea that your nationality would be used as a code word for another group that has earned a reputation for tipping below average.

There was a comment there, about tipping according to a local, Canadian tax rate. The tipping calculation in the US is not much more complicated. If your meal check total is 56.60, just take ten percent, $5.66, or even $5.50, and simply double it. It is also no incovenience to respond to your request to add 18 or 20 percent gratuity. We won't cheat you, we promise, and we won't cringe when we hear the accent of the next of your countrymen who happens to be seated in our section.

To other foreign visitors, Canadians at least have an excuse, they are our neighbors, and they think of themselves as being well versed in our cultural norms, and to a great degree, they are, it is our common, North American culture.

But, what about you? What is your excuse for dining and leaving your serve a ten or even a five percent tip? It makes you look "dodgy", indifferent by design. Why do you so predictably act this way? Why do you pass, the obligation, by default, of providing the service level that you enjoy, on to the native resident population.

Our owner loves your business, why shouldn't he? He doesn't have to take a pay cut for the privilege of doing business with you.....

Tipping data:
An article on a website with a canadian URL:

I tip 10-15% depending on service. As I said in the other thread, if you don't like the extra money I give you, I've got two words for you:

Learn to fuckin' type

I guess I should comment on whether I think in general people do. Everyone I know tips similarly to me, so I have to say I don't feel there's a basis for the contention Canadians tip less.

Maybe those that do are trying to stick it to America for years of a piss poor loonie.

If you come here, acquaint yourself with our customs, you will have a more enjoyable visit.

It is ironic that you took such a strong exception to the use of the term "Canadian", in the other thread in this forum.

I've provided data supporting the notion that you tip below par, vs. the Canadian average, and you are apparently stealing the service when dining at an American restaurant, and costing your server an opportunity to wait on a less hostile customer.

Please order and eat quickly, skip the coffee and dessert, pay the check and move along. You only rent the seat, and you negatively impact the earnings of the poor schmuck who is serving you.

It is so easy to identify customers who have had the work experience of waiting tables for tips.

If nothing else, I know you will be approaching your next sit down restaurant experience with an enhanced insight, whether it influences your tipping habits or not. If you linger at the table, after you eat, I hope you recall our discussion, if for no other reason, than because it will aid you in reading your server's mind.

So do you expect me to tip more than 15%?

It's also apparent tonight that your humour detector is broken. Either that, or you've never seen Resevoir Dogs... or both.

In any case, you need to go wash the sand out of your vagina and go preach to someone who cares about your high and mighty proclamation that Canadians are cheap.

It's not '"my" proclamation. I've provided data showing average tipping precentages. Canadians tip, less on average, according to the data from a Canadian website. You've posted that you tip 1/6, on average, less than the average Canadian.

If you have recent data showing that Canadians tip more, on average than what I've provided, and I have experienced, anecdotally, please share it, or post data showing Americans on average, tip insignificantly more than Canadians. As of now, I'm left with the impression that, if I had the experience of serving you, I could expect to receive 5/8 of an average gratuity.

Sorry, I have no vagina, and I don't joke about deadbeats taking up space while they are shortchanging me. Thankfully, most people don't.

I'd like to take a minute and comment on some of the other things you said, because I think it's quite telling you have some kind of bias against Canadian restaurant diners

I see what you did there...

Stealing service, and hostile to boot... Yep, we're about one step shy of hauling out our hockey stick and two-handing the server over the head before we take a crap on our table and leave.

You provided data supporting your opinion, yes. However, I know how I act and operate in American restaurants. I've dined many times south of the border. Sometimes with people that post on this forum. I suggest you ask them what their impression of THIS Canadian was while he dined in one of your fine establishments.

Beyond that, you're just making yourself look ignorant.

Oh, and you didn't respond if you expect me to tip more than 15%, which is my standard tip... And the standard tip expected when I ask people I know who work in the industry.

Usually 10-15%. My parents usually just paid whatever the sales tax was (until recently, 15%) plus or minus whatever change made an even number. I personally don't like it when restaurants tack on the tip at the bottom of the receipt as if to show the customer that its part of the bill to be paid. I can calculate 15% in my head, I don't need the restaurant to remind me of custom. Besides, you can usually expect a tip. The fact that open discussions can be had based around how much to give someone that provides a service lends credit to the notion that tipping is widespread.

Besides, I'm not quite sure, but maybe Canadian restaurant servers are paid a higher minimum wage so to make an equivalent take home pay, the tip does not have to be as significant? So, these habits go across the border with the traveler. From what I just googled, anyone that serves alcohol in Ontario makes a minimum wage of $6.95 per hour.

That being said, I can't imagine working at a job where your take home pay is so dependent on a customer's arbitrary evaluation of your service tacked to a scale that is in no way predictable.

On a side note, I find your accusations inflammatory because you immediately put Canadian travelers on the defensive regarding their tipping habits. Don't paint a picture with such a wide brush.

I work in the Atlanta market, I provided 2005 data on the average tipping percentage there. It is not much different in the other US cities mentioned.
In a fine dining niche with a professional front of the house staff, people with college and culinary school education who consider their position as a career, average gratuities are above what is quoted in the US survey. Nine out of ten of the diners who I serve, tip at least 20 percent on the check total.

Some customers tip less than 20 percent on bottles of wine, after the first bottle.

I recall when I was working in NYC, eight years ago, the average response in a tipping survey of restaurant patrons, was just above 18 percent.

Some restaurants in some markets are reduced, because of the practices of their customers, to adding a mandatory gratuity to each guest check, to reduce server turnover.

Most trust customers to tip an average amount, and in my experience, almost all do, above the average percentage in this market. I am sharing my anecdotal experience, and articles I have read.

You can and will, do whatever you want. My work is in one of the few areas where compensation is not agreed upon, before the work starts. That gives you the advantage. You have the option of taking the advantage, but there will be a reaction if you do that. You won't see it, because you decide how much to pay your server, at the end of the transaction.

The server's reaction manifests itself in other ways, since decent establishments have a strict prohibition against servers reacting negatively to or even discussing the amount of a tip, after the fact, with a customer.

On a side note, this entire thread just reminds me of Mr. Pink's rant in Resevoir Dogs.

Here's me, playing the world's tiniest violin for Host's tipping woes....

Generally, I tip 15% if you suck, 30%+ if you're good. It also varies depending on the type of service.

Drinks must tip high. Expensive dining should always be 20% or more. Regular dining should be 15%-20% depending on quality of service. Haircuts are 15% rounded up the the next $10 ($40 haircut = $50 total, or $40 + $10 gratuity).

I might tip 10% if the waiter ejaculates on my date, but not for anything less. The lowest I'll tip is 15%.

Remember, it's not the waiter's fault that you're a dirt-poor Canadian.

Couldn't it just as legitimately be that it's not the Canadian's fault that you're a dirt-poor waiter?

The fact that the sentiments and data contained in this thread seem to be a surprise to you, is noteworthy.

It's a "just so you know", that seemed valid and appropriate, because of the discussion on the other thread. I'm in my fourth calendar year of actively posting here. I've never discussed tipping practices or average percentages before, and I would not have now, if the other thread didn't influence me to initiate this one.

I don't quite understand the admission, and then the determination behind it, about tipping well below the US average, when patronizing restaurants in the US. The service providers in these sit down restaurants don't haggle with you before serving you, in fact, there aren't many lower pressure transactions to experience in the US. They serve you, no questions asked. Most suffer silently if you overstay your dining phase, and not a word is said if you choose to leave a sub-average tip.

But, why would you? Why would you single out the server, the one cog in the chain who posts no price in advance, and has no choice but to accept whatever you decide to pay to him, in exchange for his or her service.

It is a one-way relationship, truly built on trust. The server trusts that you have familiarized yourself with local customs to act in a uniform way, the same as a local would. There is no penatly if you decide to be indifferent or conduct business the way you are accustomed to conducting it in your own country.

There is a subtle consequence....fallout, as discussed in the other thread. You can't hurt me, the average per customer check I deal with is $75, tax included, but you seem intent on shortchanging the powerless, the person who serves you with no pre-condtions and no negotiating power.

Now you're thinking more about it, too.

My thought's exactly, don't like the tip I leave, give it the fuck back, I'll use the money, don't like you make shitty money as a waiter, get a better fuckin job, not smart enough, or don't have the ambition to get a better job, suck it the fuck up and deal with it.

wow ! I guess the thread title's question has been answered.

I tip less when I visit US restaurants, because I can get away with it, and I don't give a shit how you people in the states tip, or what you think of me for shortchanging your servers. You live there, you make up the difference, I'll freeride while I visit.

I hope that there is no more offense taken in reaction to what has been posted in the other thread, now that we've had this "give and take" here.

Each country has its own habits. In Iceland, for instance, there's no tip whatsoever. So I would imagine Icelanders would not be very good tippers when they're in the US. It's not about people of a certain nationality being 'cheaper', it's about growing up in a different environment with regards to tipping. I do think the US system is pretty bad since it underpays the waiters and therefore they really depend on the tips.

+1. It works differently in different places. A friend of mine worked at a restaurant here in the UK where the waiting staff received ZERO percent of the service charge. Unfortunately they were all migrant workers and so felt like they couldn't say anything. I therefore always leave tips in cash.

I should stress that that is likely not the norm here - just a rogue greedy restaurant owner who clearly doesn't care about his staff.

Maybe it's just payback for the way Americans act in foreign countries. :P

Doesn't seem to be the case....

If anyone from outside the US is still willing to answer a question, I would like to know if you have ever inquired via the internet or other reference source, or discussed tipping etiquette in the US, in anticipation of a visit or because of actually visiting the US?

If you have wanted to know about when and what percentage to tip in US restaurants or in other situations, did you also seek information on other facets of US etiquette or local customs?

If you did not ask about tipping before you came to the US, did you try to find out information on how much Americans routinely tipped when they dined in one of their restaurants, while you were visiting, or since?

If you did not inquire about US tipping etiquette in anticipation of a visit to the US, did you ask about other US practices and customs, so that you could "fit in" more smoothly during your visit, or be more knowledgable about American society?

Here are answers to a question of how much to tip, for comparison:
Responses to tipping question in yahoo.ca "answers":
and the answers on http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...8233831AA9KVrv

Ok, I guess I'm going to get clubbed over the head for saying this, but I question the whole obligatory tip notion.

I work all day and no-one ever tips me. Why not, I do a hell of a good job! If you're not getting paid well enough, take it up with your boss. I know it's the way this service works, but why? You work in the place, you get a pay-check. So tell me, why do I have to tip you?

I usually tip 10-20% by the way. In Portugal about 10% is the expected amount.

With all due respect, you're quoting a survey of hotel managers. I've found by and large that Londoners hate American tourists. Londoners are usually in a hurry: we rely on public transport, it takes ages to get anywhere, and missing a train can mean a long wait. American tourists ARE usually the ones blocking train station exits etc... and it's obvious that they are Americans because they are about twice as loud as anyone else. My commute to work takes me an hour and a half every day, and at least once a week I am delayed by a group of American tourists while trying to catch a train.

I am speaking here as an American living in London, so I'm not saying this as someone who hates Americans - it's just what I have observed. I realise that there are probably many wonderful American tourists, but the inconsiderate ones naturally draw attention (and ire).

Host, you should probably keep in mind that if tipping is not a part of the culture for someone else, they are unlikely to do research on it until they are made aware of it. You don't know what you don't know. Do most Americans research the details of Sharia law before visiting the Middle East?

Also, remember that Americans have a terrible reputation for being completely ignorant of cultures elsewhere. This is not to excuse anyone else's behaviour when in the US, but to put a little perspective on things.

:lol:

Yeah, I have to say - I'm embarassed for many Americans when I'm abroad, especially the way many deal with wait staff. Can't count the number of times I've cringed hearing a Yank go after some poor server or desk clerk for something obviously not their fault.

Usually, Yanks are OK, but once they leave the US many do seem to lose their marbles. Probably fear.

Anyway, I tip 15% for standard service. For every fuck up you make, you lose 5% (so, take forever to offer me a drink, screw up the order, whatever - 5% off). Three screw ups (a common occurence at the local Milestones) and you get no tip. I add 5% for every positive "above and beyond" moment.

Maybe you should move to a country where you don't have to act like a beggar seeking alms in order to get by?

Living across the pond, waiters and servers get paid more than they do in the US. Trying to leave a tip, a waitress ran back to give me my forgotten money. After explaining that it was for her, she, as well as most other servers, refused it.

I was shocked. It just doesn't really work that way over here.

I tip between 15% and 20% depending on the service, the food, the ambiance... If I didn't enjoy myself, the tip is lower.

I don't care that waiters make less and have to live on tips. That really isn't my problem. A tip is simply To Insure Promptness.

I like it where I am now. The service charge is included in the bill so I don't have to worry about it.

As for tipping other service industry types... I see no need to tip a hairstylist, delivery person or taxi driver. Quite frankly, I think that Americans over tip and tip too often.

Wow, it's obvious that far to many people here haven't been servers. Statements such as "If you don't like my tip, then give it back" and other similar sentiments are unbelievably ignorant, selfish, and short sighted. If you're going out to eat the waiter is providing you a service: (s)he is getting you drinks, getting you appetizers, making sure that side salad that doesn't come with bacon on it suddenly comes with bacon on it because you asked, they're refilling not only your drinks but everyone at your table and everyone else's at anywhere from 2 to 15 tables, they're putting up with the people that come in and order $100 worth of food and then leave $1 tip, and they're doing this while making $2.13 an hour.

If you don't want to tip, then stay home & cook dinner yourself. The old adage of leaving 15% just doesn't cut it anymore as the server not only has to make tips for themselves, but they must also tip out the bartender, the bus boys, and sometimes the hosts. When most people go out to restaurants they don't tip based on the service, but instead based on the cost of the meal. If it's an expensive meal then it kind of works out (sometimes), but too often they come and spend $30 on dinner only to leave a mere $5 tip. If the service was bad then by all means, leave a crappy tip, but if your drinks where always full and the bread sticks where always at the ready then please take care of the person taking care of you.

When you walk into a diner you know before hand that you're going to have to tip. Don't feed servers that bullshit about the worlds smallest violin trying to be funny.

And then all the servers will be out of a job, along with the cooks, sommeliers, etc., if everyone followed that advice.

I can't see paying anything less than 20% unless I receive crappy service. If I can't afford it, I won't dine out. It's always a budgeted cost.

I live in a heavily touristed area and certain establishments that are known to attract Canadian tourists will tack the tip onto the bill because the servers often get shafted.

Good or bad, in the US, most servers are paid what amounts to a stipend. They get paid (tips) according to how well they've done their job. In very few places, they're paid well and great service is expected. But why it's done and if it's 'right' is an entirely different thread.

When traveling, following the local customs is the way to go. If you intend to revisit a particular establishment, you definitely want to be sure to tip well. :p

I don't know what to say. I'm Canadian and tip 20% unless the service was terrible.

If my tax based theory doesn't hold up then it's probably a combination of cultural difference (as Charlatan alludes to) and vacationers coming in with a well gouged chip on their shoulders. Travelling is expensive so I can understand why a tourist would be a little stingey when he has the chance.

That's 16%. Low, but not below the 15% threshold. 20% is only $6 so I appreciate that it's frustrating to work so hard for so little.

I wonder if many Canadians find American waitstaff too overbearing with their upselling and super-sized friendliness. I'm confidant that this rubs most Canadians the wrong way and could negatively influence the tip. I understand this sort of thing is mostly directed by management but there it is. When Wal-Mart came to Canada, they had a PR struggle on their hands because of the professional greeters, which was a new concept. It was considered suspicious and insincere, more at home in a small town store than a superstore.

Memo to Perkin's Restaurant management. I don't want a fucking slice of pie for breakfast. Back off already!

I'll keep trying to buck the stereotype though. It's the best I can do.

As a former waiter, I tip 20+% if its good service, 15% for average and only rarely less than that.

My previous employer had a rule that all tips were to be no more than 15%. If more than 15%, the excess was deducted from the expense reimbursement. This really blew. I always round up when mentally calculating tips. And always got dinged by it.

Each country has its own customs. In Japan, there is no tipping. But any savvy traveler should know what his destination's customs are before visiting there.

Same.

And to whomever said it was "ignorance" which allowed people to tip 15%, as they have no idea what it's like to be a waiter, I think you're sorely mistaken.

If I wanted to be in charge of a waiter's pay and be concerned whether they were being paid enough, I'd own a fucking restaurant.

A tip is a gift, an acknowledgment that someone did something to make me more comfortable that they weren't otherwise obligated to do. I tip 15-20%, but it's not because I know or even CARE how much they're getting paid. How much they're getting paid is not my concern; how I want to SPEND my money, is, however.. and I will tip based on quality of service.

good service.....you get a great tip.

shitty service........well,you'll be bitching about a shitty tip.



man that was easy.........

I tend to follow this same guideline. I do throw a couple of bucks at hairstylist, delivery and taxi though, but I don't base it on a percentage, its usually 3$ across the board.

As a former kitchen worker, and a current Canadian, I both agree with and abide by this statement.

"Our owner loves your business, why shouldn't he? He doesn't have to take a pay cut for the privilege of doing business with you....."
--> Correction. That's not a paycut. That's a gift that you've come to expect as a given, and go all huffy about when it's not automatically given to your expectations.

Maybe they're just tipping the way they are used to tipping at home. They might even be stretching their budget a little to even visit wherever you are working, and tips would be #1 on needless expenses for these people.

I've worked as a waiter for a 2 years here in Belgium... If I made the equivalent of $1 each hour in tips, then I was lucky. There is no 10% or 20% tipping around here. I can only agree with Mr. Pink on the whole expected tipping idea that runs rampant in the US.

Expect to not get a tip at all unless both the customer feels like tipping, AND you work your butt off for him.

I find this funny, it's like someone whinnying they're boss isn't paying them enough and they want me to cover the difference. So because the sever has to pay out more people now 15% isn't good enough? Don't think so, I'm not the one who took the job as the waiter and your finances are not a worry of mine.

I've had a personal belief for a long time.

Everyone should be a waiter/waitress for at least six months to see how life is on the customer service end. I think we would have a much less assholish society.

Worked in customer service before, didn't make great money at all, but I also didn't expect others to make up the difference on my shitty pay.

Nisses, I think you're missing one of the points host made in the OP--not all servers in the United States make minimum wage (it varies widely from state to state, depending on local labor law). The way it's set up is that servers in a lot of states make less than minimum wage--the tips they receive are meant to make up what they're not paid by the restaurant. So imagine getting a few tables that don't tip or don't tip well, and only getting paid $2-3/hr. Tipping is so rampant that local labor laws are based around the expectation that servers are getting at least 15% in tips per table they serve.

I had the great fortune when I did kitchen work to work somewhere where I was paid minimum wage and got a share of the tips. But I understand that's not the case everywhere in the United States.

On the flip side every waiter cheats on their taxes.

When I worked for a national chain we were told as long as we claimed about 8% tips it would never be an issue.

If we forgot to clock out, the manager would clock us out and 'punish' us by claiming 15% as tips.

And I did make more than 15%, in fact I did very well. Where you 'lose' isn't in the tipping really but the set up times and closing times when the restaurants not busy. So for the first say 3 hours I was making less than minimum wage, for the rush I'd be making maybe 3-4 times minimum wage, and then at closing I was making just above it.

I never paid that much attention but my wife kept meticulous records to see what she was really making, and in 1995ish it was 8.50 and hour all said and done (the good, the bad, the ugly days combined).

For an establishment with only moderate cheque totals it wasn't bad, and its not the kinda place you make a career out of.

So shouldn't the argument be that servers should earn more per hour? Minimum wage in BC is 8/hour. Perhaps you guys should entertain the possibility that your sore ass is from getting pounded by the government's low minimum wage, not from getting pounded by "cheap" visitors to your country.

A good waiter makes more than that, so such would only help the crappy ones and make the good ones find other work. I'm willing to bet the average take home pay after taxes and such is greater for the US waiter.

If you aren't getting better than minimum, find another restaurant, they are ALWAYS looking for people.

But at least it prevents a server from earning LESS than 8/hour, a common theme I'm beginning to see as to why people are so reliant on tips

very simple to me...they don't know the custom..
they might not be able to afford it...they don't care...
they want to send a message of sorts...infitum..

sheeshmeister in a ...I'll stop now.

If you are making less you need to ask yourself why work there in the first place or if you are the only one making less ask yourself why you get less than the other workers.

You are protecting the crappy ones with your idea, I'm protecting the hard working ones.

TBH I had fun as a waiter for the most part, and yea I got stiffed now and then but it was a minority of the time and I never made less than minimum age on average and usually did far better, I got better tips than my wife ;).

People tip 10% - 30%? I'm not a foreigner, but if you get $3 from me-- Regardless of the bill-- Consider yourself lucky.

See your argument here makes no sense, in light of the fact that this thread centers around the idea that some people won't give you the tips regardless of how well you serve them.

My idea protects everyone from bad tippers, and enables the stronger ones to make a decent living

your stance is a philosophical one. I tip, but don't think that it should be the case. Why do I tip? because it is expected. How much do I tip? The exact amount (15%) which, by the way, DOES cut it. I tip based on cost of the meal and very rarely on the level of service.

If I find the service lacking (for example last Saturday at East Side Mario's) I speak to the server. Usually it turns out to be a problem further down the chain. The incident at East Side Mario's was an issue with the cook, and the waitress apologized profusely, and gave us a promo discount. In that case, I still tipped her a FULL (notice I use the term Full for 15% as that is the accepted rate here) 15% on the pre-discounted price of the meal.

NEVERTHELESS, I still do not like to tip. I think that the cost of the meal at the restaurant more than covers my desire to not eat at home and prepare my food myself.

That the industry has perpetuated the notion that we need to download additional cost to the end user I find disgusting, and only through solidarity (via hold back of gratuities) can we ever force change and make restuarants pay wait staff a living wage! DINERS UNITE!

Oh, Host, I did do research on tipping practices when I went to Jamaica, US, Korea, Sri Lanka etc to be sure. I find that the US and Canada are fairly sympatico, but 20%??? really now.


ya the tipping of my barber.... I heard that etiquette demands that you don't tip the owner of the establishment. Never. It's bad manners. However, I always give an extra $4 to my barber (two toonies) for my $14 haricut. I've noticed that I don't have to make appointments anymore. If I walk in, a chair is always available.

Pizza, I give $2 all the time. Taxi? Can't remember the last time... except for an airport limo, and it was 15% of the fare (expensed to the company).

oh yes, at Christmas I left a $10 Tim Horton's card for my mail man, hanging on my mailbox. I sure hope he's the one that got it.

They're making you food without spitting in it if you tip 15% or more. It not, then you're paying $3 or mucus and saliva, if you're lucky.

It's officially customary to provide 15%. If you tip less than that, you're communicating one of two things:
1) Your service sucked
2) I am a cheap bastard

This is the country in which you live. If you don't like it, maybe you should make more money so that you can tip like an adult. Or go to Canada.

But how can they spit in your food if it's already in your belly by the time you pay? Just sayin...

Repeat business. When you think about it, it's the repeat poor tipper that would be the biggest problem for a waiter. One meal's tips isn't much to lose, but several? That adds up. And it adds up to saliva. In your soup. :expressionless:

But one should tip out of respect, not fear. These little fuckers are busting their ass and it's something that is a custom. It's a part of being an adult. Clean your nails, brush your teeth, and tip your waiter. Skipping any of those is really immature.

Agreed, and I also agree that making a habit of tipping well pays dividends in the form of better service and friendly waitors / better seating.

I was just making a sideways observation.

Still though, I must confess I had no idea that there was so much animosity in the USA over this. It's rather amusing to be honest... If anything it makes me realize I should probably hide the fact I'm Canadian if there is such widespread hatred in the food service industry. Still... my standard 15% tip continues. Don't like it? Lobby for higher wages.

Or maybe the wait staff should get better jobs and make more money so they can live like adults and not have to depend on random people for their money. Like I said before, if they don't like my tip, give it the fuck back, I'll use the 5 bucks.

Or maybe you should get a job where paying 15% would just be a drop in the bucket. It goes both ways, but at the end of the day it's just something you do if you're not an asshole. Knowing that you're not an asshole, I'm sure you do it.

fuck that.........i tip appropriatly........am a proud Canadian....


and if no one likes my tip..........kiss my hairy ass.


:rolleyes:



and if the service sucked.........your tip sucked........and i probably wouldn't return to dine in your establishment anyways........




so spit away.....

Not enough to really make that big of a difference.

DESPITE those types I still made more than 15% pretty much any night. The job of a waiter is only worth so much, I'd rather be the best and make a lot more than average.

Some servers don't deserve making a higher set wage,due to the quality of their service, and the current system makes them find work elsewhere.

I'm speaking of avoiding the spit and grime that apparently will be visited upon us BEFORE we even have a chance to tip, by virtue of being Canadian and therefore "cheap" in the American service industry's eyes.

I'm a proud Canadian, but I also don't like eating dirty food.

Damn Canadians.

Perhaps the thread should be titled "Americans - why do you put up with inferior service and have arbitrarily high tipping customs?" Maybe "Stereotype group vaguely supported by a host-quoted article, defend yourself'"

I've worked in the service industry. My wife, sister, and brother have all been servers at one time or another. I eat out a couple times a week and my wife and I have a standing Friday date night to have a decent meal together. I start at 20% and add/subtract based of service. More often than not, it is higher. If it ends up being lower, we don't go back to that establishment. It has been 0-100% in the past. I know people need to tip out, I've done it myself. If you are a shitty server and don't provide a reason, I'm not going to tip. Although I've only not-tipped once.

I think the entire concept is flawed. The custom started as a bonus to those that provided exceptional service. In a service industry where a tip is automatic, there is no motivation to the server to provide average or even adequate service.

I know you can make a decent living as a server. I know you make more money than other servers when you do a good job, as you should. I know most people in the food service industry pay minimal taxes. If you're a career server (as opposed to 'first jobs' and 'putting myself through x), then you shouldn't be concerned about low tips. I've never been to a fine dining establishment and had poor service or tipped anywhere below 20%. But I've pretty much stiffed the airhead college girl at Earls and the old bitch at the diner.

Maybe they'd get be able to get better jobs if they could afford to finish school on their parents' dollars. Or if their husbands didn't leave them caring for a child on their own.

Most 'wait staff' is working their way towards something better. Or at least trying.

There's nothing to suggest the service here is inferior, bossnass.

You're right will, it does go both ways, they could get better jobs, I could get a better job, I leave them their 15%, they seem happy, I seem happy, it all works out in the end.

Why? Everyone in my market, "is with the program". From the OP:
You visit our city, our local patrons support what we do for them, they return time and again, and you benefit from the highest level of service in the world.

We assume nothing, but we know what we average in each transaction. When you take up a table, during the time you are there, no else can be seated.

Read the comments in this thread, and in the two comparison Yahoo answers pieces. The Canadians who have posted in this thread, and in the Yahoo answers box, seem commonly to be resistant to tipping, to tip less, and to specifically mention that they are "prepared" to top less than 15 percent if they are dissatisfied with their experience in any way.

Almost no poster identified in a profile or a posted admission, as Canadian, mentions ever tipping 20 percent, but almost all mention reasons for deducting from the amount that they tip, and there are more mentions of a "10 to 15 percent" tipping range.

That just is not the way that it is done here, except by foreign visitors. Put yourself in my place, if you can. The average tip in my market is just above 19 percent, but I work in fine dining, the highest rated, best food, wine and service venue.

You come in, prepared to tip "up to" 15 percent, if you are completely satisfied. From the start, you're taking up 20 percent of my earning potential, in a 5 table station. You automatically are reducing my income from your table by at least 20 percent below what the average tip in our market is. (Remember...just over 19 prcent is average in this market, but this is a fine dining venue, so our average is higher.)

Not only are you not willing to learn or adapt to the local tipping custom, you are unapologetic, even obnoxious, proposing "remedies" for a "problem" that only you are the source of. If you didn't know, now you do.

At least give us some kind of relief, if you have to ignore how the people seated around you are tipping, here in the US. Come early, before 6:00PM, or later, after 9:00 PM, and don't stay for coffee and dessert.

I started a thread asking foreigners to explain why they tip less, when visiting the US and dining in our restaurrants, and you have posted why. You're here on holiday, why all the anger and resentment, resistance to our customs The service would suffer and meal and drink prices would be higher, if
tipping at the average US level was less than it is.

I don't encounter the service deficiencies when I dine out, and certainly not in the restaurant I work in, that so many of you have posted about as a reason to tip less.

Read your posts, if you were me, and detected your accent at one of my tables, early in your dining experience, would you be all that excited to be serving you, compared to one of our local patrons?

We don't auto grat you, haggle over the tip, we don't even mention it, because we expect that you will hold up your end of the transaction, based on how we do things here. Some of you have stated that you are satisfied that your tipping percentage is the norm, is satisfactory.

But, you post it, kind of like the way you tip. "Dodgy", in that you say it is so, but you offer nothing to support your claim. If you have data to counter the two linked article excerpts I posted, please provide it. Otherwise, you appear similarly to the way you tip.

Most Canadians in the thread say they tip 15-20%. I said 20+/-. I tip frequently 20+.

If I tip less, it means the service was inferior. In accordance with the presumptions in the thread (All Canadians tip less, all servers should automatically get 20%), I think the presumption that American service is inferior is equally sound.

I've only dined in a few states (Montana, Idaho, Washington, Maine, New Hampshire, Nevada, Colorado, Florida), and I have no recollection the % I tipped, but if it was an inferior tip it was in response to inferior service.

So you'd tip 15% for inferior service? That's not unreasonable.

I find it amusing that an American is asking someone from another country to learn and adapt to local customs. Ahhh so we're the only source of the problem? Not the rest of the foreigners? Good to see the true host is coming out. Like I said before, don't like my tip I'll gladly take it back and use my money on something I want.

To be fair, our waiters aren't invading Iraq.

Hehe, now that would be an invasion, white coats and puffy hats, flinging freedom fries at the masses.

Hey, they'd only want 20%. Right now we're trying to take a lot more than that.

I cant stand the whole tipping thing, I think its stupid and I wish I lived in a country where it wasnt done. Tipping is not mandatory as much as some people would like to think it is and I will tip what I feel like. My norm is 15% but I have absolutely no qualms about not leaving one.

I put in my order, I fully expect the person who brings it to my table, no matter who it is to make sure its right before it leaves the kitchen. If my order is wrong and I have to send it back....you're pretty much guaranteed no tip, if I had alcohol at said meal I will personally go tip the bartender myself

/my two cents
and Im American

AHH...I betcha they are all Scotsman in disguise...
all that nickel squeezin and such carries over...(i hope that sounds like a joke)

It seems we have shifted the conversation to other ideas of tipping practices..
which is good...I'm still thinkin bout something..later..

Well just so you know because, obviously you don't......

The waitstaff may have screwed up your meal but the kitchen may have as well or if they have production staff the guy may have brought out the wrong one to your table. Only the first is the waiters fault, and shit happens, being a bitch about it and not tipping is your prerogative, but it still makes you a bitch since its almost always an honest mistake not due to laziness.

As for the alcohol, you just fucked the waiter/ress. Most places the waiter is required to tip out to the bartender. By directly giving the tip to the bartender you have now not just stiffed the waitstaff in question, you have taken money from them.

Congratulations, you are part of the problem.

So not paying for shoddy service is being a bitch? fine im a bitch then and have no problem with that. If I see you write down I want a salad with no onions on your little ticket and it comes out with onions, thats not an honest mistake, its takes how long to compare your ticket to what you're bringing out? If I order steak and you bring me a hamburger and i have to TELL you that you brought me the wrong thing....again, it takes how long to check the order before its brought to the table?

Like I said...tipping is not mandatory, its a gratuity, a "thank you" and Im not gonna thank a person for screwing up my dinner by giving them money.

Its really very simple....pay attention to the service you're giving and you'll get thanked

That is not true, it's contradicted in the Canadian article in the op, it's contradicted at the yahoo.ca "Answers" quote box, and it's contradicted in the majority of the posted comments of folks with Canadian places or graphics in their profiles.....if you think I am wrong, show me where you got the support for that statement...."most"

Shani, you know that waiters are paid less in wages because gratuity is expected by management, right? So in effect, a lack of a 'thank you' actually translates to making less than one should make in such a position.

Edit: it should also be said that if you can't afford to tip at a restaurant, you really shouldn't be eating there. If you make $12k a year, your first choice should not be a $100 a plate dinner where you'd have to provide at least a $15 tip.

of course I know that, I worked in the payroll industry for years and I handled several eating places, I know exactly how they are paid and how they are supposed to report their tips etc.

Sorry if some of you think its wrong to expect a person to do their job correctly but I dont (I never said there were not some exceptions, I said "generally"). Its a chance a server takes when they take the job.

It comes off as vengeance or something. I have trouble understanding that. They're getting your food, and they're making almost nothing hourly. What do you gain, aside from saving a few bucks and sticking it to the man?

Do all of you low tippers go to museums and concerts with a "recomended donation" and say "fuck that, you can't make me pay, I'm only giving you a dollar?"

You don't have to tip. If you don't want to tip, go to McDonalds or Pizza Hut. If you're only going to tip 10%, I think you should tell your waiter, so he or she only provides you with half the service he or she normally would.

In our current system, going to a restaraunt involves two financial transactions: You are paying the restaraunt for the food, and you are paying the waiter (who is basically an independant contractor hired by you) to bring you the food. If you can't afford to pay the waiter, eat someplace cheaper. Eating at a table enters you into an implied social contract with the waiter that you will pay them about 15%-20% of the value of the food and drinks they bring you.

I've never worked in the food service industry, but it baffles me when people get self righteous about paying for services rendered, merely because they aren't forced.

Ace: 10-15
wakelagger: 10-15
highthief: 15+-
Charlatan: 15-20
fresnelly:20
fly:good service= great tip, shitty service= shitty tip.
Daval: 15-20
Baraka: 20+% to 15%
silent_jay: approx 15 (Edit- sometimes 20% for special service!)
Leto: 15
Bossnass 20+-

Yeah, thats most Canadians in this thread at 15-20.

I make no claims on your linked articles or yahoo.ca. I would doubt that the yahoo.ca answers are representative.

And I repeat my belief that the basic presumption of a 18.7% base rate for tipping is flawed. I'm certain I could find many examples (and links of 'proof') of current American trends, customs, and policies that you believe to be flawed.

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I'm generally not a bad tipper, but I've seen enough of both sides of the transaction to have strong opinions on the topic.

I worked as a cook for various restaurants for five years. If you are a bad tipper, I don't recommend making repeat visits to any restaurant. If you're an asshole before you get your food, I recommend not eating anything that comes out of the kitchen. Spitting does happen. Worse happens.

As far as the OP goes, I don't base my tips on percentage. I'm horrible at percentages anyway. I have a system. Considering I only really go out to eat when I go on dates, the average meal ticket I pay for is around $50.00. If I had exceptional service I tip $20.00, if I have really good service I tip $15.00, average service I tip $10.00, bad service I leave $5.00, horrible service you get a nice shiny penny.

Also, when I refer to service, I mean my experience based on the things my server is in control of. I know when something is the cook, or somebody else's fault.

I think basing your tip on service is a very good idea. If you're a server and you don't make good money, it's because you're not very good at your job.

I just have to say, I love this thread. Host's replies show he is obviously quite worked up about this. It's rather amusing seeing a baby flail around whining about the fact we're not observing the American custom of tipping 20+%

I wish I knew where you worked so I could come at 7:00 pm, eat dessert and coffee, then leave without giving a tip

Simply to spite this thread.

20% tip? For the birds, unless you go ABOVE and beyond. Don't like it? Then I've got some salty nuts for you to suck on.

I was thinking the same thing earlier thinking about this thread.

I didn't think of my self so much as a employee but as someone using the restaurant to allow me to do my trade and thats how I approached the job.

Careful, Ace. Host is many things, but a baby is not one of them. Proper tipping is a sign of maturity.

20% tip maybe if the meal includes a bj or something.

Yeah, I thought about editing my post, but I think it conveys my frustration over the service industry's expected 20% handout.

Probably uncalled for... and I can't wait for the huge long Host reply either.

I guess I'm not that mature if I refuse to tip 20%

I've been saying this for a long time too.

When i delivered sandwiches i always remembered who consistently didn't tip well/at all. When a sandwich was ordered, the order-taker usually gave the eta as 45-60 minutes. The folks who tipped well got their stuff in 15 minutes, the ones who tipped poorly, or not at all had 45-75 minutes to wait. I remember a couple times taking a box full of sandwiches with me on a tour of the lovely minneapolis parkway system before bringing them to their final destination.

When i worked at coffee shops, the folks who didn't tip didn't get good service- i was never rude, just pokey, maybe a bit less precise in my duties. It makes sense to me that if you're going to attempt to be a regular you should also attempt to foster goodwill in the folks who serve you.

The worst was when i was a valet. If you ask me, when deciding whether to tip the guy who is going to park your car or the guy who has just gotten your car and handed you your keys, go with the guy who is going to park your car- he has a lot more control over whether your car will be parked in a place where it is less likely to get scratched and more likely to be easily retrievable. Not that i ever scratched a car or put one in a position to get scratched, but you'd be surprised at the machiavellian natures of the the prototypical valet.

I tip 15-20%, depending on the service and the health of my checking account. If i ever get out of school and get a decent paying job i imagine i will tip more.

Has it ever occurred to you that most servers and such are high school or college age students just trying to make some money while attending school. Stop being a jackass and tip or stay home. If you can't afford to leave a decent tip then perhaps YOU should be the one getting a better job.

Everyone doesn't have to agree that tips should be the norm, in fact I really don't care if you hate tipping or not. However since you're aware of the custom before you ever leave the house then if you're against it...don't go! If you don't like Clinton then you're not going to vote for her, if you don't like Toyota's then you won't buy one, if you don't like tipping then don't go out to eat. It's real simple.

I think that almost goes hand in hand with what many people are expressing in this thread. It's only common (I use that term loosely) courtesy & out of respect for a complete stranger that one doesn't beat on their car. Sadly such notions are foreign to far too many people and that manifests itself in both tipping, valet parking, customer service, and many many other fields of employment. Some might say that these people should "get a better job", but if everyone was a doctor or a lawyer then who would be that lowly scumbag that makes sure your trash is taken from the curb each week? People have no respect for jobs that they deem beneath them and it's sad.

I really dont get you people that think you need to give money no matter what kind of service you get, but thats your way of doing things not mine, I dont believe in rewarding bad service, if you want to call that "vengeful" then fine...we will agree to disagree.

Canada is proud and an unappreciated country. I can empathize with the Canadian posters' sensitivity about being singled out - especially when they apparently tip 15% for proper service. Many guests from abroad - even Americans who don't frequent restaurants - are unfamiliar with tipping practices.

Any waiter who has spent time in the industry may get nervous about waiting on groups that get flagged at poor tippers, but I feel that service may suffer due to that bias.

Why isn't server's wages built into the cost of food and drink? A report by Cornell Hospitality School (which I can't find the link to) states that restaurants with tips are perceived to be cheaper. I surmise that those who do not tip or only leave a pittance for even the best service would be discouraged from dinning out at the new, non-negotiable prices.

I find Canadians to be kind and thoughtful both inside and outside the restaurant. I've only left the US once (Tokyo and Beijing) and was annoyed by my American peers bellyaching, "Why can't they do it like they do at home. This is stupid." I winced at their ugly, provincial way of thinking. After reading some of the posts here, I'm shocked at some of the "ugly Americanisms" coming from non-Americans who have a reputation for being cosmopolitan and urbane. (I'm also shocked at some of the "better than you" attitudes.)

I'm lucky to work at a great steakhouse where I've been able to work my way through school on my own dime. The guests are great and I'm able to give them impeccable service. Canadians aren't anyone to look down upon: I remember providing a sumptuous dinner for two with a final bill of $2,000.

My heart does go out to host who has apparently been burned after providing perfect service and getting a bruise to the ego/ setback to the retirement fund at the end of the meal. I know what it's like to work under the sword of Damocles. Minding all the details. Pampering beyond expectation. Navigating the inferno of a restaurant. Making experiences. Then only to be used in the end.

But it's worth it. I love taking care of you. I love seeing your eyes sparkle on your 20th wedding anniversary. I love the uproar of laughter from a girls night out. I love welcoming you back home from Afghanistan where you held onto a small tin of Morton's mints to remind you of the good life that we have here in America. I love it.

In the end, recognize bad and good service. Tip accordingly. It's an honor system. Understand other cultures and when in Rome do as the Romans. Everyone can learn to better apply the later.

This is where the cultural difference lies. Looking at the American system from the viewpoint of the rest of the world, the problem isn't that I'm not tipping - the "problem" is a strange system where you are relying on goodwill or social compliance. It doesn't make sense to have to tip the cashier at the supermarket a percentage of your grocery bill, the pump attendant a percentage of your gas bill.

I know you're supposed to tip the bellhop who brings your luggage to your room (and I do), but if you tip them, then why not tip the builders who carried the bricks to the building site of your house? Because that cost is built into the cost of your house, of course. As far as I am concerned, tipping a bellhop is a device used to show off, to state how superior you are: "I'm so rich that I pay someone to carry my luggage for me instead of pulling my Samsonite into the lift on my own."

Hence the alternate system where the cost of being served is built into the price of the product. Does that put up prices? Sure... but the consumer would have had to pay that anyway according to the compulsory-tipping system. If you get great service, then leave a tip and it really means something. If you get bad service, then speak to the manager, or simply don't eat there again.

That having been said, whenever I have been back in the US I always tipped 15-20%. I know that the job is hard, and I appreciate the way service staff feel about poor tipping in the light of how the system works so I pay out... but I still think it's a really, really stupid system.

I'm sorry - I have to take issue with this.

I worked for a couple of years in retail - all the shit of food service but nobody gave me a present if they really liked the way I got their cans of soup.

I worked part time in a nursing home as a student to pay my way - nobody gave me a gift because I was really good at wiping their liquid shit from their chair.

Food service is not the only service industry.

Why do people in food service think they automatically DESERVE a present?

I think my pay could be better, but if I insisted that my customers pay a 15% service charge for the honour of buying from me, I'd be in prison for corruption.

To answer the OP, I tip for good service - I add about 10% if it was good. But my choice of what is good may not be the same as yours - if you hassle me (as all US waiters that ever served me did) about refills or send five people to ask if I'm enjoying my meal - you get less, or none.

I add my tip to the cheque/card - that way it can be honestly shared through the kitchen staff etc.

If I'm in a dine & dash mood, I expect rapid no frills service, and I expect to pay what's on the menu.

If it's obligatory that we all pay 15%, and 25% for great service, then put the frigging prices up on the menu.

If your pay sucks, leave the job and as an earlier person has posted - learn to type.

I worked hard to get a job that is not on minimum wage, if you are in a crappy job, work hard to better yourself.

I sympathise, and if you do a really good job, I'll be generous - but it's not automatic.

You know the name for a gift you cannot choose to ignore? A tax.

Have you read my posts yet? I already said I fuckin tip 10-15%, stop being a jackass and read my posts. I can afford to leave a decent tip, I tip the norm, what is decent to you may not be decent to me. I don't need a better job, I'm not the one pissing and moaning because people didn't GIVE them enough of a tip, be happy with what you get, the alternative is that you could get sweet fuck all.

I'm fairly certain, though i haven't done the math, that if tipping were to end tomorrow, there would be a decrease in service quality, as well as an increase in prices in all industries that rely on tipping. A lot of people work in tip-jobs because when tips are good you can make a lot of money. They work hard under the assumption that they will be rewarded with a tip- take that away and you have someone who only needs to make sure that they don't annoy you enough for you to ask to speak with the manager. On the other side, i think that if no one tipped, the cost of eating out would increase since employers would have to raise their wages to compensate for the fact that a lot fewer people would be willing or able to work for sub or close to minimum wages. Then tipping would essentially be compulsory, and the folks who don't believe in it wouldn't be able to get what is essentially a free ride from those who do.

Just want to point out that Bossnass does admit to being a generous tipper. Just mentioning.


Host, I find your argument to be compelling and logical. A lot of people are missing the point that you are asking why visitors don't educate themselves on the local customs (in this case of the US). I know that a lot of Canadians automically assume that our southern cousins are very similar to us, and in most of our customs, so that our average tipping amount seems to be adequate, and non-controversial.

I for one never considered that I would have to research tipping practices in the US, but would definitely have to if I went to, Let's say France. But after reading this, I will definitely take more notice.

It does seem that tipping in the US is somewhat inflated. and Bossnass... are you nuts???

WTF?

You're happy to pay 15% even if you admit the service was shitty? :oogle:

Can you explain? I'm confused.

A woman after my own heart....

We're being inconsistent. On the one hand people explain that you should tip high, so the barstaff and kitchen staff get their share.

Next someone says that if the meal sucked, it wasn't the waiter's fault, but the kitchen or barman, and so the tip should be just as high.

I'm puzzled...

15% is a minimum. I still got food and they still worked so it's not as if I'm paying for nothing. My default tip for food is 20%. For alcohol, my default tip is 30%. For a haircut, it's 15% rounded up to the next $10.

You got a higher wage, but yes there are other customer service jobs out there, no need to be offended.


Because at the time I was getting something like 2.50 an hour and a tip was built into my pay, even by the federal government. It wasn't a present.

Ummm I could charge 15% more in a heartbeat if I liked at my work, without going to prison, but its a competition thing. No idea why you go to prison for higher prices.

You know when I worked as a waiter I got to know the door staff VERY well, they kept the Europeans from my section if possible.

Doesn't work that way, most establishments you tip the kitchen/bar based on your sales %, not your tips. If you get crappy tips or great ones it doesn't matter, you paid a set %. No cheating was possible that way.

Well now you know.

Its not a minimum wage job. If everyone acted like you the base pay would be higher to make up for your cheapskatedness and the prices on the menu would be directly higher plus you would get shittier service. I think its amusing you found American service to be too smothering, my guess is you are used to crappy service by now.

So that would be your full generous 10%?

No, its an honor system. If you get crappy service you are not expected to tip well. It gives you the ability to decide what that persons labor was worth to you under the circumstance. A tax you gotta pay shitty service or otherwise, and thats what your attitude would end up resulting if everyone was like you. If your non-minimum wage job is so fantastic, you can afford the % and you now know how the system works. Instead you are trying to say how it SHOULD work according you to, and it doesn't.

Yeah, a little. But I've dealt with assholes on the other end, and I actually did really appreciate it when I (or my then girlfriend now wife) earned a decent tip. And in the couple years or so, we've started to have way more income than we expected to have- and are also more busy than we expected to be- and we enjoy being able to go out for meals. I've been regular enough and tipped well enough that we get exceptional service at a couple local places. Better tables, the odd comped drink or appetizer/dessert, getting in on a busy night without reservations, etc.

Also keep in mind that I have no qualms with tipping poorly when appropriate.