Aladdin Sane

Isn't it hilarious the reaction you get for making one little, tiny criticism about Canadians? THEY GO NUTS! "If you say we are bad tippers, you must hate Canada and, well, USTWO, AMERICANS ARE CRAP! NANNANABOOBOO! Take that, Yank!

I haven't had this much fun since the Studio 54 days of Margaret Trudeau!

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Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

Martian

Yeah! Look at those stupid Canadians, and how offended they get when they're stereotyped! They're worse than black people!

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

Ace_O_Spades

If you actually read the thread Aladdin you'd realize that we're trying to convince host and others that by and large, we tip the accepted %. Just like Americans, there are a % of us that don't, and there's a % that tip over. We're trying to convey that sweeping generalizations are bad, no matter what your stance.

If that's going nuts, then I think we should all go nuts a bit more... don't you think?

I hate getting into pissing matches with Americans, it's no fun, it makes me feel immature, and it damn sure lowers my appreciation for my neighbours to the south. Especially considering most Americans I know are decent folk.

But do you expect us to just roll over and let an entire thread dedicated to the deprecation of our population go unchallenged? It's clearly the minority of Canadians that tip below average.

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Feh.

silent_jay

Ever mention Iraq to an American? Ever start a thread about Iraq on this board and not have the neo-con point of view? Yeah it isn't just Canadians who have this reaction. I'd hardly say we're going nuts by the way, we're the ones being called asshole and bitchy Canadians in this thread, so take a good look at your fellow countrymen before you comment on who is going nuts.
That's the thing, he doesn't want to read the thread, he'd rather come in here and make snippy comments every now and again than actually bother to look at the topic.

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Absence makes the heart grow fonder

Aladdin Sane

:O)

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Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

m0rpheus

Indeed. Servers do make less but the general minimum wage here in Ontario is (as of March 1st 2007) $9.50. Server minimum wage is $8.25.
Taken from http://www.labour.gov.on.ca/english/...s/fs_wage.html
I had no idea that servers in the states make so little (then again I don't visit the states often). Maybe this is why you feel we are such "bad tippers" because we believe that servers are getting paid the same as the kid at McDonalds (Student minimum wage under 18 is $8.90) so maybe, just maybe you should do a little more than said kid if you want a good tip.

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"it never got weird enough for me." - Hunter S. Thompson

Charlatan

This speaks volumes about why a Canadian would pay 15% to 20%. Where I come from, 15% is acceptable because we pay a reasonable wage to our servers to start with. It is also drilled into our heads (here anyway) that a tip should be 15% of the bill.

The insanity of paying a server $2.50 I just can't fathom.

As for fine dining (as I believe Host was speaking about), I would be hard-pressed to believe that a two or three-star Michelin restaurant pays their servers anywhere near $2.50. I would expect that a top restaurant would pay much more as their servers have a lot more to do (and know) than a regular restaurant. I should also be noted that 15% of some of the bills that can get racked up at establishments of this nature is a significant amount of money.

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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Fly

oh hey.................i can help with that.

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BASTARD

SterlingStudios

abaya

I've read all 209 posts, and I'll say it again (because it appears my post was lost in the melee): I'm an American, and when I'm in America, I'm still going to tip 15%, maybe lower... but not an effing cent more, no matter how great the food or service is. I was a waitress myself. I remain unconvinced that Canadians are any more assholish than your average American, or any other citizen of the world. I see absolutely no moral imperative to pay 20% as a tip, ANYWHERE. And I'm done.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Leto

are you already married? Oh ya, you are eh?

(damn)

blahblah454

abaya I know it doesn't need to be said as it is already common knowledge, but you rock!

I think that perhaps something should be done about the wages Americans get. Tips aside, I think it is criminal to pay your workers so little. To me that is just greedy restaurant owners trying to make as much money while paying as little as possible. I don't know how something so absurd as paying your employees $2.50 an hour ever became the norm.

If my meal cost was offset due to the low pay rate at the restaurant then I would probably be more inclined to tip more, but as long as they charge $10 or so for a burger I could of made at home in 10 min for about $1 then the tips stay in the 15% area. Not to mention the fact that probably 3/5 times I am in a restaurant I complain about either the food or the service (complain to myself and my party).

Ustwo

So easy to spot them.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

silent_jay

What are you on aboot?

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Absence makes the heart grow fonder

host

All the "stuff" on the internet that supports my contention, right down to the "what's the difference between a Canadian and a canoe?".... you're right, that "stuff" is all "made up", and I'm wrong...it's just all a malicious plot to smear Canadians and other foreign visitors.

We'll be happy to welcome you, and serve you and take that pay cut and lost opportunity to serve a local who, in my market, is documented as tipping an AVERAGE of 19 percent at an AVERAGE restaurant....

Just extend one courtesy to us...we had a staff meeting several years ago, and management asked us to agree to a proposal that would improve service by offering the guests the opportunity to simply and immediately leave the bar and be escorted to the dining room when the table they were waiting for, or their reservation time, became available, WITHOUT having to ask for a bar tab, and sit through an added payment transaction.

We recognized, however, that eliminating one of two payments for our bar/dining patrons was in the interest of improving service. The bar staff, of course, wanted 19 percent multiplied times the bar tab of each guest, deducted from the bar checks that they transferred to us to consolidate with the dinner checks, deducted from our total tip on those transactions.

We weren't comfortable, taking a risk of mandatory 19 percent deducts because our experience was that some of our guests tipped lower than average. We compromised by agreeing to a deduct of 17 percent on the amount of each bar tab transferred to dining room checks.

So....stick to your guns....you know what you know. We'll take the pay cut when we serve you, and lose the opportunity to serve a local patron who will routinely tip 25 to 30 percent more than you (19 or 20 percent, vs. your 15 percent max.). There are enough locals and American business travelers to make up for the effects of your "principles", on our bottom line, not to drive us into some other line of work, just yet. When you write in the amount of the tip, after you've enjoyed your dining experience, consider that you've paid our owner every penny he asked for, and his supply chain, and all of the salaried and higher wage earning "non-tipped" employees, as well.

The only ones you've executed a pay cut, vs. the opportunity to be compensated to the level of the average that they normally received for their work in crafting your dining experience, were the waitstaff, the only ones who trusted you to do right by them....or not.

You'll "show us !", you've made it quite plain, and our other clientelle will help us make up for your lower, more principled tipping, but if we can persuade you to consider one thing....please pay your bar tab before you walk from the bar to your table. I've experienced tips so small from guests with larger bar tabs, that I've actually lost money serving them, and you've already assured me that, no matter what, your tip will be 2 percent less than what I have to pay back the bar for the 17 percent deduct on bar tabs.

During the 1996 Olympic games here, all restaurants simply added an 18 to 20 percent gratuity to each check, because it was anticipated that foreign visitors would become an increased portion of guest demographics, since many local patrons planned to be away during the period of the games to avoid the anticipated congestion. After the games, the restaurant owners ended this practice, and since, waitstaff is completely at your mercy, so....come on in, and "fire away" at us. At least now we know that how you tip isn't because of low currency exchange rates, or because you are unaware that the local patron at the table next to you tips an average just above 19 percent here. You tip the way that you do, because you can!

silent_jay

All the stuff in this thread that destroys your contention, you're right that 'stuff' is all made up, it's just a malicious plot by the Canadians of this board to fuck you over. You stick to the arguments that support your contention, and ignore the actual Canadian data in this thread, keep going the usual way host, like Ace said, maybe we'll just get tired of you regurgitating the same old BS and give up like most people do why argue anything with you.

Host this is pointless as I've already said anything we post isn't going to lessen your hard on for Canadians, you have an issue with what we tip, the alternative is you could get fuck all, be thankful for what you get rather than pissing and moaning about something we didn't have to leave.

As one of the articles I posted said, 15-20% is appropriate, so it seems all the Canadians in this thread are right on par.
Even your own data, search Canadian on the 'Distressed waitress', you'll find 2 complaints, search Yahoo Answers, you'll find one, ONE mention of Canadians, so you see host your own data that supposedly backs up your accusation, doesn't back it up that well at all. You can use the posts that support your argument, but before throwing around stupid accusations you may want to make sure more than 2 people on a link have complaints about Canadians. Oh yeah that Yahoo Answers was 1 out of 33, one out of 33, yeah that back your argument up so well.
You don't actually read what is being posted to you do you? 15% max? Have you read no other posts in this thread beside your own?
Would you like some cheese with that wine?
Were these Canadians (of course they were), or were they your beloved local Americans who save you with their gracious tips. The tip may not be 2% less, you seem to be ignoring the fact that many of us have said we tip between 15-20%, some tip more, so you're not assured of getting a lesser tip, even though your hard on for Canadians probably has you convinced it will.

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Absence makes the heart grow fonder

abaya

Host, don't get me wrong, I'm usually sympathetic to a lot of what you post. But this casting of all the waitstaff workers in America as being "us" is a bit much. I WAS one of those "us" people, and I did not share your opinion at the time.

Did you miss that I worked as a waitress for several years, when I didn't GET an hourly wage, not least because part of the time, I was working underage at my parents' restaurant? ALL I got were tips. And I still got 10-15%, most of the time... and never, ever thought it was strange, nor did it influence me to treat customers like shit.

Sure, I got the occasional 20%+ tip, which of course I wasn't about to turn down, but that was maybe one table a month. I certainly didn't expect it from every table, every night. (And I don't remember having more than a handful of Canadians in our restaurant, in all the years that I worked there--they were all Americans.)

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Jinn

I think you just summed up all 200+ posts.

Expecting someone to give you a certain amount of money for something that wasn't arranged before you gave them said thing is silly, whether it's food or not.

If I do something for someone (fix their computer, for example), I'd be silliness for me to expect them to pay me a certain amount, just because of an implicit social rule. I should've pre-arranged payment if I'm going to be upset for not being paid, or not being paid enough.

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"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

silent_jay

Canadians must be streaming to the Atlanta area by the tens of thousands for our 15-20% tips to hurt hosts bottom line so much.
My favourite part has to be this line and it pretty well sums up why you get what I leave: "and its amount is at the discretion of the person being served", that's right hos, my discretion, not what you usually get, or what the norm is, it is what I want to leave at that particular time.

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Absence makes the heart grow fonder

Ustwo

I find most people bitching about tipping tend to be poor, too poor to really afford to eat out at said establishments. Are you poor, I'm just trying to see if I can validate this belief.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

silent_jay

Nope, not poor at all, I work hard for my money and am not going to give it away, my parents taught me the value of a dollar.

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Absence makes the heart grow fonder

Ustwo

Ah so you are just cheap.

Poor people have an excuse.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Mantus

Living in Toronto, Ontario and working in the service industry it’s certainly apparent that Canadians are in fact cheap. Why don’t they adhere to American tipping averages when they visit? Probably because they don’t know better. There is also a certain disdain towards the service professions among Canadians that has been exemplified in this thread. On top of this, Canada has always been painted as a cultural mosaic rather than the American melting pot. Many cultures don’t tip and no one is there to correct them on their behavior.

My solution has been simple: I seek out customers who tip more than twenty percent and make sure to give them the best service possible in order to boost the percent of my tip even higher. You really get what you pay for when you come to my bar. I find this to be a fair position because it allows me to offer genuine value rather than expecting a flat rate on my service. This is the only way a bartender in Toronto can break the 40k/year mark (after taxes).

silent_jay

Not cheap at all, do you not know the value of a dollar? Do you not work hard for your money? Do you just give said money away?

I've already said I tip between 15-20% so if that makes me cheap then cheap I am, but if your wages don't pay your bills, rather than bitching for me to boost up your pay rate with something I don't HAVE to leave, it may be time to re-evaluate things and find another way to make money. Hey host I hear selling crack pays big bucks, maybe the crack heads will tip you 20-30% which you seem to think you're worth.

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Absence makes the heart grow fonder

Martian

Emphasis mine.

I know that's a typo, but when I read it I can't help but picture silent_jay as a pimp. It really adds a whole new level of hilarity to the discussion.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

silent_jay

We doin' big pimpin'

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Absence makes the heart grow fonder

host

It's $2.13 per hour, unless an individual state enacts a different "tip offset" scheme into the minimum wage law in that state.

The "real world" situation is the exact opposite of what you would be "hard-pressed" to believe. The average guest check (per seat) is triple or quadruple the norm, at that Michelin rated restaurant (there are so few of those, in the US, and they are concentrated in such few cities, that the term is not a good one to describe US fine dining...<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restaurant_rating">see US ratings</a>), and other near caliber venues, driven at least as much by sales of expensive wine and champagne as by higher food menu pricing.

People who work for tips in these top tier restaurants, except in a few markets, NY City and Las Vegas, where some are unionized and receive an actual wage and benefits, are unaffected, compared to everywhere else by the tiny hourly wage. These staffs our professionals, because they do average 19 percent of gross sales, plus tax, as a gross tip. There are no "college students" waiting on you, and the servers are primarily college degreed males, over 30 years of age.

They are paid $2.13 in the top tier restaurants here, as in almost all other local "sit down" businesses of any level of quality, because the owner can pay like that and still have plenty of applicants for the positions. In every front of the house position not requiring direct dialogue with guests, the staffing is almost exclusively Mexican illegals. They work extremely hard and fast, and since they know of any job openings before outsiders do, hiring is restricted to their friends and family because management loves their hardworking cooperative (timid) attitudes. They are paid $2.13, and we pay them the rest from our tips. They average, before deductions, $100 per shift, and double that amount on convention nights in the best stations.

They are imposed on us, we joke that we could pull up at a Home Depot on our way to work and bring our own handpicked support staff into work with us and pay them $50 per night as subcontractors. These highly paid (for their skill, language fluency, and education levels) workers only rarely advance because they do not attempt to become fluent in English. The ones assigned to the best stations make more than the waitstaff working in the worst stations (the ones where the anticipated poor tipping guests are escorted to be seated...), and they have no job risk or responsibility, compared to the waiter who is fired or disciplined after management receipt of a complaint letter from some irritated individual who did not get that personalized birthday dessert per the instructions on the reservation slip, didn't like the location of their table, or felt slighted because their waiters spent more time with the party of ten than with their "two top" (five times more time was spent at the other table....)

When I encounter an especially friendly, articulate, outgoing, and attractive store checkout line cashier, I am sometimes tempted to ask, "what are you doing, working here?" and then follow with, "why...the illegal immigrant workers where I am employed, probably make twice the amount you make", but I don't.

This turned into an unplanned narrative, but I'm trying to point out that it doesn't follow that the best restaurants would pay a higher wage; it is the lowest rung places that must do that to slow staff turnover, and.... the impact from foreign visitors and other poorly tipping guests is on the staffs in the restaurants where a $50 per week difference in tips earned is enough to effect economics to the point where the job is not worth continuing to show up for, especially if it costs $5 or $6 per day to travel to and fro.

The difference between a 15 percent and a 19 percent tip, on an average check of $15 per head can have that effect. If you wait on a large party and it is half your cover for the night, in an average priced restaurant a lower tip has a huge impact, and so does a $2.13 hourly wage. Mitigating that is the tendency for lower level server to receive more cash tips and enjoy more discretion in how much they are required to tip out to their busboy or food runner. Tip distribution procedures tend to be written in stone at top level venues, and 95 percent of cash flow is in the form of easy to track credit card transactions.

So many claim that they prefer to experience the tip built into the menu pricing. Do you think the owners would do that without a markup for themselves? Do you think in better restaurants, the staff would be motivated with a fixed, guaranteed income, to avoid doing what Ustwo described in an earlier post? The US restaurant service "system" is truly a model of capitalistic incentives vs. a more socialist model.

You have the power to prompt the best service, via the amount that you tip,
T.I.P.S. (Tip to Insure Prompt Service), but you arbitrarily want to set too low of a top limit on how much you tip, an unlimited lower limit (down to .02 cents....) and you seem to have a tendency to walk into a place with a chip on your shoulder. You state that you would prefer not to have to tip at all, and many of you maintain that there is no problem, we're just imagining that you tip reluctantly and below average...you don't tip too little, the people at the other tables tip too much and "spoil" the waitstaff, turning them into greedy, entitlement seeking sloths. Thank god for the owners, putting them back in their place, with that $2.13 per hour.

You should consider that you are seeking out the least powerful to exact a price from. Why not go up to the manager and ask to see the owner, or ask if the manager has the authority to knock ten percent off your bill, or comp your drinks or appetizers, because you think that the prices are too high, compared to similar venues in your country. <h3>You don't do that, it's just easier to short the service staff, the only people in the restaurant, and in the country, who give you the benefit of the doubt, the trust and respect, to compensate them for their work, as you see fit,</h3> with no consequence to you, except in forums like this, or in jokes behind your back, about canoes and "Canadian" juries.

The_Jazz

I was saving this to use on myself, but what the hell....



Crompsin, I expect your input on this.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

silent_jay

All this from host just sounds like whining to me, oh pity me the man doesn't pay me enough and you guys don't GIVE me enough of a tip.

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Absence makes the heart grow fonder

Fly

i'm going for lunch this afternnon w/ a buddy...........i sure hope the service is good so i can "REWARD" our waitress with a tip of "MY" choice.




cry me a river and piss me a pond........

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BASTARD

SterlingStudios

host

Yeah, and here is my stealth posting ID:

I am heartened though, because the servers in you own country are equally discouraged by the tipping habits of your countrymen, and he is cushioned by the fact that he makes at least more than 3 times my hourly wage.

flstf

I usually tip 20%. I sometimes get confused for room service and some places in Europe where gratuity is included. When I tip when I shoudn't I sometimes feel like Vinnie.

Everyone should tip like Vinnie.

[Vinnie palms off a $100 bill to Barney]
Barney Coopersmith: You don't tip FBI men!
Vincent 'Vinnie' Antonelli: Sure you do!

Leto

that was just for you

silent_jay

Wow, one person, you really try to twist information to suit your own needs, much like your Yahoo Answers article with ONE mention of Canadians and your Distressed Waitress link with 2 mentions of Canadians, seems you are just grabbing at straws, and I'd hardly say my countries servers are equally as discouraged seeing as only 1 has agreed with you.

By your reasoning, We're right, we've already had one American former server who has said she didn't EXPECT a tip of 20% or more and all she lived off were tips, so yeah I guess if one person agrees with you you're right. Here'll I'll show you abaya's post again just in case you missed it, or were ignoring it because it doesn't support your argument, my guess is you're ignoring and hoping we miss it:
Hmmmm notice didn't EXPECT it from every table, whereas you seem to expect the maximum all the time.

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Absence makes the heart grow fonder

highthief

And I am heartened by the American posters like abaya who have worked as servers who think you're as off base as ever.

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Si vis pacem parabellum.

Leto

Anybody notice a certain quid pro quo in this discussion? Perhaps we are all the same? Do ya think? eh?

The_Jazz

We're not the same. You're Canadian. You're funnier and not nearly as repressed about sex as we are. Then again, we've got college football, so I guess it all works out in the end.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

pan6467

Wow, I never knew people hated Canada here. I guess they watched Canadian Bacon once too many times. (The tower in Toronto is truly a nuke aimed at the White House and they plan to bankrupt America by tipping waitstaff less than the "required" 20%.)

This all is starting to belong in humor, can't believe some people are that upset over tips. Here's an idea, give better service and stop bitching abut who tips and how. Tips are supposed to show appreciation of a job, if you do a shitty job, why do you believe you still should get 20%? If you bitch abut what you d get, then you'll never truly appreciate what you have, it'll never be enough.

You chose to work in the industry, you knew the pitfalls and consequences, you knew you would have to rely on tips, deal with it.

I am a drug counselor, I work at an agency that gets it's money from the voters taxes. I made $20,005.95 last year, my wages won't increase that much after I get my LCDC or my Master's. I know that, I accept that, I'm not going to bitch when voters decide not to pass a renewal levy (someday I am sure it will happen). I can only work hard, do my best, serve my clients to the best of my ability and let my job speak for itself. That's how I can justify my job and my pay.... no one owes me shit. That's the way EVERYONE'S job is. Waitstaff is no different, if you provide a substandard service you deserve substandard pay. If someone whether they are Canadian or not decides you only deserved a 10% tip, live with it and figure out why. Don't bitch because they "only" left 10%.... you may miss what they are trying to tell you and end up watching yourself get more of those tips.

But you won't listen to me, you'll come up with more bullshit why everyone "has to/needs to tip you more" BUT you will refuse to come up with any reason why people should.

I've heard you look like him to, same clothing styles and haircuts.....

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Martian

Your argument here is fundamentally flawed and emotionally driven.

First of all, that acronym (which I've always thought was kind of stupid, but we'll go with it); tips are, as you state, 'to insure prompt service.' So if the service isn't prompt or is otherwise sub-par, what would my tip be covering? Why should there be a lower limit to the amount I tip? If the level of service you offer me is less than stellar, I have no incentive to give you any sort of gratuity; there's nothing to be rewarded.

Mexican illegals are just that, illegal. If you're going to advocate a capitalist system, it would seem that you should deal with that first, rather than complain about how they have it so much better than you and then expect your customers to offset the difference out of pity.

And I don't think anyone has suggested that the managers are doing a positive thing by underpaying wait staff. In fact, I seem to remember saying just the opposite and I think most of my countrymen are expressing a similar sentiment. $2.13/hour is a criminal wage in most of the Western world. Why would you be willing to accept such abysmal pay? Unless your tips really do make up the difference in which case I reckon the whole thing is a non-issue and this entire thread is so much white noise. In any case, I refer you to the story blahblah454 relayed back on page 4. In Alberta (which, by the way, is easily the most conservative province in the country) wait staff at a top rated establishment make as much as or more than licensed tradesmen. Hell, even at a family restaurant a server who is sufficiently charismatic and diligent can make an excellent wage, because his tips are added on top of his $8-$10 hourly wage. This is exceedingly simple math. $2/hour+tips vs $8/hour+tips, which one will net you a higher paycheque at the end of the day?

Aside from that, I'm not really sure what you're saying. Are you saying that if you neglect one party in favour of another (regardless of relative sizes), the neglected party shouldn't feel slighted? Are you saying that refuse to seek employment in another field because you make more at your job than you would in other unskilled labour positions? And are you saying that you prefer to be paid an almost non-existent hourly wage, or simply that you accept it because you know that your position can easily be filled if you're dismissed?

I do have a lot of respect for waiters. I'm not trying to demean the job itself, I know you work hard. Whether you brand me an asshole or not, I'm the guy who will always say please and thank you when asking for a refill and who's likely to be understanding if your performance is negatively impacted by a situation outside your control. I'm also the guy who's going to reward your performance in a very direct fashion. You get a good tip for good service, you get a poor (or non-existent) tip for poor service. This seems to be what you yourself are advocating in your assertions of capitalism and customer control. Am I interpreting that incorrectly? Perhaps if you are consistently getting shorted on tips you should look to yourself for the reason, rather than blaming your customers and labeling them all cheapskates.

I have consistently referred to your position as unskilled labour, because that's precisely what it is. I don't know if that's what you're taking umbrage at, but I assure you it's not meant to be offensive. I am well aware that unskilled does not equate to easy. At the same time, however, unskilled does mean that it's a job that nearly anyone can do. There's very little involved in waiting tables that can't be taught to nearly anyone in a reasonably short timeframe. Thus, as your position requires no uncommon abilities in high demand, it only makes sense that it would pay a low wage. I do not agree with setting a wage that's less than a third of the standard minimum rate, but expecting a king's wages for waiting tables seems a bit unrealistic to me regardless of what sort of establishment you work for and unloading all this excess vitriol on your customers is ultimately just a form of self-pity, from what I'm able to tell.

You seem to be taking this whole thing very personally. While I can empathize, personalizing the discussion does not lead to an unfettered exchange of ideas. On the other hand, all of this hostility you're exhibiting towards your potential customers is a bit illuminating, to say the least.

Jazz, I just want you to know that... you're my hero.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

The_Jazz

At the risk of an even further threadjack -

If you break into "The Wind Beneath My Wings", I'm going to have to smack you.

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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

silent_jay

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Absence makes the heart grow fonder