sapiens

It seems clear to me that it is not a "gift horse". The tip is part of his wage. Being allowed to control such a large portion of a waiter's wage is a benefit given to diners in the US- you have say in how much you pay for a service rendered.

silent_jay

Ahhh so it's a benefit then, enough said then be happy with what you get, it is after all, up to me.

__________________
Absence makes the heart grow fonder

Leto

Just to clarrify and turn down the heat a bit, I think the intent of the OP is a query as to why visitors (and yes mainly Canadians) seem to ignore or be ignorant of the local tipping customs in the US.

It was not an intention or opportunity to snipe about super power this, or arrogant tourist that, or (good grief) a discussion about relative health care systems (yet again). Nor is it a chance to be condescending and holier than thou. I think that is beneath all of us here in this forum - I hope! Host has provided some valuable insite on this matter.

The logical outcome of a group of people (Canadians) behaving in a predictable and less than acceptable local manner (regardless of the cause) around tipping will be to engender a reaction that is unpopular.

I find it sad that I get lumped into a group of tightwads because I am Canadian. But, it seems that 15% gratuity will put me in that group because the data that Host has provided (let's ignore the source for now) indicates that this is below the US average of 18.7%.

If I want to have good service in a US restuarant I should be circumspect as about my origins (no wearing a Maple Leaf on my back, no loud boorish behaviour that would typify me as a tourist as it seems that tourists tend to be like this anywhere) and hope that my lack of accent doesn't give me away.

That's reality. The same reality will ensure that I don't drive a rental car in Miami, or book a vacation at a Mexican resort, or key in my PIN at an ATM without covering my hand.

highthief

Surely you are not calling your fellow posters "assholes"?

That's surely not within the spirit of the TFP ...

__________________
Si vis pacem parabellum.

filtherton

I think you guys are confused. While ustwo make speak with a certain swagger, he does not in fact speak for the certain portion of american tourists who behave badly. As far as i can tell he is just one person, so all this pot and kettle business in response to him calling out poorly behaved canadians is intellectually lazy.

I would also like to request that if you do tip, tip in canadian dollars.

silent_jay

Why not, he's already called us bitchy Canadians, seems about the usual.

__________________
Absence makes the heart grow fonder

pan6467

Let's see, I go to a restaurant pay exorbitant prices for a dinner I could have made at half the cost and I am expected to add 20% to whatever the bill is?

Sounds like a tax to me.

I tip by service. If the server is polite, does a good job, allows me to feel comfortable and allows me and who I am with privacy, I'll tip well.

If the waiter treats me like shit, makes me feel like he/ she has better things to do or gets orders wrong, interrupts conversations and does so rudely, etc. I'll leave the tip I want.

Look, to me a tip is something I give out to show appreciation for the service. I expect the server to at the very least show appreciation for my business. It's one of the few ways I can truly show what I feel about a service.

I refuse to feel the "need" or "requirement" to tip. If the tip is mandatory, then add it to the price of the food and pay the servers more. If an establishment decides to add 17.5% as a courtesy so that I didn't have to figure out the tip.... I will NEVER do business there again. That establishment took away my right to decide for myself what I value the service at. They obviously do not care about my business.

Also, when I have wanted a TGIFriday's but didn't have that much money and was cheap on the tip, I tell the server this up front and usually they have understood, if they didn't and I got service I felt was different than the norm. I left nothing.

I don't think this belief system is just here in the US.

Not to threadjack but, this from the beginning bugs me, we can open a new thread for this:

Ummm, does this go for Illegal Immigrants also? Or do you have double standards for Legal visitors and people who illegally come here to live.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Fly

you don't have to like our system of tipping either but.......it's how it's done.





and if it was great service...you'd get "rewarded" with a great tip.


it is that easy folks.........suck it up.





thank you...............

__________________
BASTARD

SterlingStudios

Infinite_Loser

Slightly off-topic: If the service is absolutely terribly, I've been known to leave a $.02 tip.

Edit: If an American went to, say, Canada and refused to follow typical customary practices, (s)he would probably receive the 'stupid American' label. Yet, if that same Canadian came to the U.S. and didn't follow typical customary practices, then it's because he's not obligated to? Ehhh... Maybe I'm missing something

(Granted, I'm not the greatest tipper in the world, so disregard what I say.)

__________________
I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

pan6467

I guess that's putting in your 2 cents.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

ShaniFaye

I will take this one step further.....If I see any notification that they automatically add the gratuity (except in the case of a large party) I will get up and walk out...and never go back for the exact same reason

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

Willravel

They do this in the UK, so don't make up your mind until you've had REAL bangers and mash with a REAL beer. OMG, sooo good.

ShaniFaye

In the UK its dif....thats the norm there so I would comply with it.

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

Bossnass

I just did a cursory search to see what there was to see;

from http://www.vidaamericana.com/english/tipping.html "Tipping in America: How to Tip in the U.S."

And from the definitive source; Tipping.org, http://www.tipping.org/tips/restaurant.html

And from one of host's linked articles;
So to summarize, most Canadians tip at least 15%, and the Canadian standard as referred to in that article is 15%. The established American standard is 15-20%. Higher for fine dining, as Host represents, but for regular dining, 15-20%.

The tipping standard for fine dining is 18.7-20+%, but I think there has been a lack of clarity that the OP was establishing tipping rates for finer dining.

Finally, for the average dining experience, it should be noted that Canadian servers are being paid a higher wage and earning comparable tips. As a result, the idea that tipping based on performance isn't offensive. I'll also reiterate that yahoo.ca and most posters in this thread were in reference to average dining, not fine dining.

Punk.of.Ages

Isn't that what this thread is about? Complying with the norm of the society you enter? When in Rome, right? I learned that concept in elementary school.

Everyone's getting all uppity about this subject, but I think almost everybody is pretty much agreeing here. Almost everybody has stated that about 15% is a good tip given for good service. Some go a little higher some go a little lower.

I just don't see where the intensely heated argument is coming from.

__________________
"The fact is that censorship always defeats its own purpose, for it creates, in the end, the kind of society that is incapable of exercising real discretion..." - Henry Steel Commager

"Punk rock music is great music played by really bad, drunk musicians." -Fat Mike

Ace_O_Spades

You win the thread.

Bang on.

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Feh.

host

Bossnass, you've made an informative, well articulated post, however, if you are more correct than incorrect, in what you are telling us, what is all of this "noise", including in a prominent newspaper in western, and from sources around the internet?

The information is available in your country, and it is not just me, saying what I've said:

silent_jay

It's almost like I'm psychic
Call me NOW!!! It's Cleo.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...2203639AAsJXBq
Looking through Yahoo Answers, one person mentions Canadians, out of 33 results, one person out of 33, yep that sure is a lot of 'noise'.

From The Stained Apron:
http://www.stainedapron.com/newcourse.htm

__________________
Absence makes the heart grow fonder

host

Your own major newspaper, the Vancouver Sun, does a recent story containing claims identical to the ones I made in the thread OP. Bossnass decided that the credit card data in <a href="http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_13139.aspx">this article</a> displayed in the OP, actually meant:
when, actually the article he interpreted and the Vancouver Times story, and feedbeck from around the net, say something different, and so do many posters on this thread.

It appears more likely the the Canadian typical maximum tip percentage is 15 percent, and that percentage is at best, 83 percent of an AVERAGE 18 percent tip in the US. It is 79 percent of the AVERAGE tip in the market where I work, and I don't work in an average restaurant.

When you are escorted from the bar to a seat at a table in my section, I can expect to be docked 2 percent of your bar tab from the tip you leave, if you leave 15 percent, because the bar receives a 17 percent tip on your drink tab, regardless of the tip amount you leave. I can expect your maximum tip, if you are satisfied with food and service, to be 79 percent of the average tip in my market, at the average restaurant. The information about your tipping habits, compared to those of US patrons, has been published in your newspapers. Your reaction is to say, "be happy with what I give you, stop whining, I don't give a shit if you don't like it, find a better job".

You enjoy the superior buying power, because of the strength of your currency, yours and the Europeans. Stop taking up seats in our restaurants, and cutting our fucking compensation!

silent_jay

host, this is the internet, you can find a story saying it's alright to fuck sheep if you want to, you can find a story to support any view. You have actual Canadians in this thread telling you what we tip, yet you keep going back to a story in a newspaper, I guess actual Canadian input from actual Canadians doesn't mean as much as written word from a newspaper.

Have you not seen what the Canadian posters in this thread have said we tip? I'll refresh your memory:
And from that list and The Stained Apron, it seems us Canadians are right on track.
It's quite obvious you're going to continue to have this hard on for Canadians and see us as bad tippers, which doesn't bother me in the least, you can think what you want, we're not going to change your opinion here no matter what we post, as I said before, you're the best cut and paste man on the board, you'll just go out and find another 'study' or story to support your argument and go on your merry way.

__________________
Absence makes the heart grow fonder

Bossnass

Your links barely support your assertion, if at all. The article in the OP I referenced, along with the other two sources in the same post, do actually say what I 'interpreted' them to say.

You recommend that Canadians have due diligence in American tipping customs. I believe that my previous post did just that. I wouldn't expect a potential tourist to search for a random newspaper article asserting a higher rate to be the source used.

Yeah, Host, I'm done. It is a stereotype. You have a prejudice that you are trying to justify. I recommend you endeavor to perform your chosen occupation to your normal standards regardless of the accent you may hear. Thank you. Good luck.

blahblah454

silent_jay

From your own story:
78% of Canadians tip the standard 15%, so 22% don't, doesn't really support your hard on for Canadians all that well now does it?
Notice the words personal decision, what you normally get has nothing to do with what you're going to get from me or the next person or the next person.

__________________
Absence makes the heart grow fonder

ShaniFaye

but only if you tip them when you're done

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

Martian

That actually peripherally raises an interesting question. Is it possible that certain ethnic groups tip less because the servers, who are expecting a poor tip anyway, provide sub-optimal service?

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

Ace_O_Spades

This thread was over after Leto's last post. Everything now is just going to be a host cut-and-paste-a-thon, and more pissing matches back and forth across the border

__________________
Feh.

silent_jay

And it has to be more than 20% or you'll be considered a cheap asshole.

After searching 'The Shitty Tipper Database', it seems there are only complaints about 2 Canadian parties in the whole 'database' http://www.bitterwaitress.com/std/in...&fromfromid=58
That's not too bad at all if you ask me, only 2 complaints.

__________________
Absence makes the heart grow fonder

ShaniFaye

oh god, Im sorry....thats the funniest thing I've read all day hehehehehhe cheap asshole hehehehehe

oh...I can sleep well tonite

/sorry I couldnt help myself

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

silent_jay

I couldn't help myself either Shani, this thread needs to chuckle a little more, guess it'll be up to the Canadians (and a few Americans) to handle that part.

__________________
Absence makes the heart grow fonder

little_tippler

Instead of getting all worked up about it, what I want to say is this:

I do tip good service in restaurants. I tip as a show of appreciation for good service. If you spit in my food because I haven't tipped, or haven't tipped you as much as you want, then you are lousy at your job and have no pride in your work. Shame on you.

I still don't see how above-and-beyond service automatically merits a tip (you could mention bonuses but those are paid by your employer and not an external source - important difference), in any job, and a huge one at that (If I got tipped 20% for my job that would be pretty awesome!).
I do a great job regardless of my pay; I don't earn as much as I feel I should for the tasks successfully and well completed, I work overtime for no extra pay, and I go above-and-beyond regularly, because I have pride in my work and enjoy what I do - and I don't expect tip for this, or demand it!

I don't think waiters are lowly and I am always respectful of them as long as they are also respectful of me. Maybe the OP has an issue there.

I particularly dislike the self-righteous attitude of the OP in relation to this topic because I still don't see how it is your right to get tipped.

I should not have to pay for a large percentage of your wages, take that up with your boss (you probably make more by the hour than I do).

The OP says that people who question the notion of tipping are arrogant but I think it is very arrogant to expect tip when I still feel you haven't given me a solid enough reason to have to do so. Maybe it shouldn't be called a tip?

I doubt any waiters/waitresses anywhere outside of the U.S.A. would be so adamant about this topic.

I am not Canadian.

__________________
Whether we write or speak or do but look
We are ever unapparent. What we are
Cannot be transfused into word or book.
Our soul from us is infinitely far.
However much we give our thoughts the will
To be our soul and gesture it abroad,
Our hearts are incommunicable still.
In what we show ourselves we are ignored.
The abyss from soul to soul cannot be bridged
By any skill of thought or trick of seeming.
Unto our very selves we are abridged
When we would utter to our thought our being.
We are our dreams of ourselves, souls by gleams,
And each to each other dreams of others' dreams.

Fernando Pessoa, 1918

jorgelito

You know, I wonder about this too, actually alot. I think it is a very important point. What about it people? Can any servers and diners (ethnic ones) shed some light on this?

Ace_O_Spades

Kinda like a self-fulfilling prophecy... I like the idea, and it might have some merit, but where's your randomly quoted blog/webpost/"research" to back it up?

__________________
Feh.

samurai_x44

All I remember seeing is $2.xx per hour... WOW! That's slave labor. Now I know why you think foreigners under tip :
in Canada, a tip is a way of thanking the staff for doing good service and is in no way required. It is assumed that the restaurant will pay its waiters properly. I had no idea that in the US restaurants make it the client's responsibility to pay the waiters. I now think that a 30% tip is way too little if the tips are almost the waiters whole wage... and he has to pay for health care too.

ps : I tip 20-30% to show gratitude and not because I have to.

__________________

Ustwo

Sounds like changing the subject. Canadians are bad tippers as a rule, the only question I have is why does it get them worked up so much?

Canadians do you feel like its a slight on your nation knowing you are crappy tippers?

Is it a source of national pride that has been wounded?

Does military impotence make one touchy over minor matters?

You should be approaching the acceptance phase. Just say it, perhaps together, holding hands around a Maple leaf while wearing a hockey jersey "We are lousy tippers."

There....now breath in.....let it wash over you......ahhhhhh.

Now think of all the great things Canada has done and weigh it against the fact you tip poorly.....there....is that so bad?

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

host

Post #180
silent_jay, these were the posts, in the original thread that were the catalyst for this spinoff:
You can repeat your opinions about how I post, as often as you choose. I've asked you or anyone else to post data showing that Canadians tip an average amount above 15 percent at restaurants. Should we persuaded to believe nasty Americans made all of this up, about Canadian and other foreign visitor tipping attitudes, practices, and percentages?

The "canoe" joke has been circulating for years. Have you ever heard it before, or wondered about it? Stop "shooting" at me. Post one article with a description or data about Canadians leaving positive impressions at restaurants because of their practice of tipping above 15 percent.....

I am not the one who originated or built on the Canadian reputation, your countrymen have accomplished that for you, including some of our fellow TFP members who have posted here.

From <a href="http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showpost.php?p=2390838&postcount=153">post #162</a>:
Canadians and other foreigners seem to be invading the Atlanta metro area, and the "culprits" are:
Canadian dollar vs. US: http://www.x-rates.com/d/USD/CAD/graph120.html
<img src="http://www.x-rates.com/d/USD/CAD/graph120.png">

....and being located next to the busiest airport in the world,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World%2...senger_traffic

in one of the fastest growing US metro areas, tourist markets, and convention markets:
One of your own shot the photo below, and he enjoyed visiting us so much, he's threatening to return:
http://angelodelosangeles.blogspot.c...n-my-mind.html
<h3>I'm going to give you what you wish for...regular updates of tipping percentages on the guest checks of our foreign and domestic patrons. I hope the information I posted above this paints a picture for you of my potential to provide date that will further open some interested eyes, and roll the eyes of some others, stay tuned!</h3>

silent_jay

Who's rule is this and where is it written? It seems 22% of Canadians are bad tippers by hosts own articles, and that 78% tip the normal.

What gets us worked up is when people like yourself and host seem to only believe what you post and what everyone else posts is merely bullshit that you just glance at because ultimately your opinion must be the right because after all it is your opinion.

We have posted data, again, and again, you just seem to ignore it. You have data from people (Canadians) in this very thread saying how much they tip, yet still ignore it, it isn't our fault that you choose to ignore it. Your own articles show that 78% of Canadians tip the norm, yet you still piss and moan,.
Here I'll post our data of real Canadian from this forum again, seems we all tip the norm
As I said before it doesn't matter what we post, you'll just ignore it and go on your merry way, so why should we waste our time? You have real data in the thread, if you'd read our posts maybe you'd see it.

__________________
Absence makes the heart grow fonder

Martian

Hence why I referred to it as a peripheral question, or in other words one not directly related to the main topic of discussion. Even still, I think it could have some merit. If you offer anyone a poor standard of service I should imagine they would respond with a poor tip, regardless of nationality. If you're providing Canadian diners with inferior service based on the expectation that you won't be receiving a good tip from them, can you really claim surprise or outrage when your expectations are fulfilled?

First of all, I'm still not convinced Canadians are crappy tippers. The websites posted along with the admittedly unscientific poll in this thread seem to indicate that the average Canadian tip is ~15%. That doesn't seem to be significantly lower than American tips; at least, the reference websites posted by Bossnass above seem to indicate that 15% is an acceptable baseline, with variations of 5% or so based on the quality of the restaurant and the service provided. host's sources appear to correlate that, generally quoting an average rate of 15-18%. Sure, some Canadians are cheap. Some Americans are cheap. Are you seriously going to contend that you've never been stiffed by one of your own countrymen? Or were they all black and/or Chinese immigrants?

Quite aside from that, yes some Canadians will find it offensive that we're all deemed bad tippers in much the same way that you seem to take exception to the suggestion that all Americans tourists are boorish and inconsiderate. Stereotypes are generally frowned upon, whether they're based on nationality, race or religion.

I shouldn't even respond to this. I know I shouldn't, as this is not the proper place for such a discussion. Even still, I feel the need to point out that clearly spending your education budget on the military has done wonders for you.

C'mon, you couldn't work maple syrup, back bacon and beer into that? I'm disappointed.

I have to admit, this one is odd coming from you, as you do seem to hold quite a bit of animosity toward my country.

Rest assured that I don't spend enough time south of the border to deprive any of your hard working waiters of the tips you feel they deserve. This, incidentally, is why I attempted to debate the way the system itself is structured, while largely avoiding the issue of nationality. As nobody else seems interested in doing so, I reckon I'm pretty much done here.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

Ustwo

No I love Canada, some of my finest memories growing up and in general are from Canada. I'm willing to bet I know more people from Mutton Bay than anyone on this board.

That doesn't mean they can't be really really silly about things with this new found national pride

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Martian

I wouldn't take that bet. I had to use mapquest to even find out where Mutton Bay is.

Even still, discovering that you spent a lot of time amongst the Quebecois growing up would seem to explain why you think all Canadians are crazy.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

Ace_O_Spades

baZING!

Between host thrashing around like a wounded animal, vainly attempting to make sweeping generalizations that are true of the minority, and Ustwo predictably hurling stereotype after stereotype, this thread delivers.

That's the beauty of host's arguments. His aptitude at using the quote feature combines with his stubbornness that is rooted in his occupational bias against certain demographics to create an endurance that typically frustrates more level-headed and rational posters. He simply outlasts or overwhelms whoever he argues with by burying them in quoted articles and the repetition of his own misguided conclusions drawn from data he spins to suit his needs. He wins by default.

The two greatest words in the english language... de...fault....de....fault!

And Ustwo, what can I say, I'm almost beginning to think you're not even a real human, just a tank of manatees that randomly selects stereotypes or generalizations to hurl at people to try to rile them up.

__________________
Feh.