Ace_O_Spades

I just have to say, I love this thread. Host's replies show he is obviously quite worked up about this. It's rather amusing seeing a baby flail around whining about the fact we're not observing the American custom of tipping 20+%

I wish I knew where you worked so I could come at 7:00 pm, eat dessert and coffee, then leave without giving a tip

Simply to spite this thread.

20% tip? For the birds, unless you go ABOVE and beyond. Don't like it? Then I've got some salty nuts for you to suck on.

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Feh.

Ustwo

I was thinking the same thing earlier thinking about this thread.

I didn't think of my self so much as a employee but as someone using the restaurant to allow me to do my trade and thats how I approached the job.

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Willravel

Careful, Ace. Host is many things, but a baby is not one of them. Proper tipping is a sign of maturity.

silent_jay

20% tip maybe if the meal includes a bj or something.

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Absence makes the heart grow fonder

Ace_O_Spades

Yeah, I thought about editing my post, but I think it conveys my frustration over the service industry's expected 20% handout.

Probably uncalled for... and I can't wait for the huge long Host reply either.

I guess I'm not that mature if I refuse to tip 20%

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Feh.

filtherton

I've been saying this for a long time too.

When i delivered sandwiches i always remembered who consistently didn't tip well/at all. When a sandwich was ordered, the order-taker usually gave the eta as 45-60 minutes. The folks who tipped well got their stuff in 15 minutes, the ones who tipped poorly, or not at all had 45-75 minutes to wait. I remember a couple times taking a box full of sandwiches with me on a tour of the lovely minneapolis parkway system before bringing them to their final destination.

When i worked at coffee shops, the folks who didn't tip didn't get good service- i was never rude, just pokey, maybe a bit less precise in my duties. It makes sense to me that if you're going to attempt to be a regular you should also attempt to foster goodwill in the folks who serve you.

The worst was when i was a valet. If you ask me, when deciding whether to tip the guy who is going to park your car or the guy who has just gotten your car and handed you your keys, go with the guy who is going to park your car- he has a lot more control over whether your car will be parked in a place where it is less likely to get scratched and more likely to be easily retrievable. Not that i ever scratched a car or put one in a position to get scratched, but you'd be surprised at the machiavellian natures of the the prototypical valet.

I tip 15-20%, depending on the service and the health of my checking account. If i ever get out of school and get a decent paying job i imagine i will tip more.

Randle2I

Has it ever occurred to you that most servers and such are high school or college age students just trying to make some money while attending school. Stop being a jackass and tip or stay home. If you can't afford to leave a decent tip then perhaps YOU should be the one getting a better job.

Everyone doesn't have to agree that tips should be the norm, in fact I really don't care if you hate tipping or not. However since you're aware of the custom before you ever leave the house then if you're against it...don't go! If you don't like Clinton then you're not going to vote for her, if you don't like Toyota's then you won't buy one, if you don't like tipping then don't go out to eat. It's real simple.

I think that almost goes hand in hand with what many people are expressing in this thread. It's only common (I use that term loosely) courtesy & out of respect for a complete stranger that one doesn't beat on their car. Sadly such notions are foreign to far too many people and that manifests itself in both tipping, valet parking, customer service, and many many other fields of employment. Some might say that these people should "get a better job", but if everyone was a doctor or a lawyer then who would be that lowly scumbag that makes sure your trash is taken from the curb each week? People have no respect for jobs that they deem beneath them and it's sad.

ShaniFaye

I really dont get you people that think you need to give money no matter what kind of service you get, but thats your way of doing things not mine, I dont believe in rewarding bad service, if you want to call that "vengeful" then fine...we will agree to disagree.

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Randerolf

Canada is proud and an unappreciated country. I can empathize with the Canadian posters' sensitivity about being singled out - especially when they apparently tip 15% for proper service. Many guests from abroad - even Americans who don't frequent restaurants - are unfamiliar with tipping practices.

Any waiter who has spent time in the industry may get nervous about waiting on groups that get flagged at poor tippers, but I feel that service may suffer due to that bias.

Why isn't server's wages built into the cost of food and drink? A report by Cornell Hospitality School (which I can't find the link to) states that restaurants with tips are perceived to be cheaper. I surmise that those who do not tip or only leave a pittance for even the best service would be discouraged from dinning out at the new, non-negotiable prices.

I find Canadians to be kind and thoughtful both inside and outside the restaurant. I've only left the US once (Tokyo and Beijing) and was annoyed by my American peers bellyaching, "Why can't they do it like they do at home. This is stupid." I winced at their ugly, provincial way of thinking. After reading some of the posts here, I'm shocked at some of the "ugly Americanisms" coming from non-Americans who have a reputation for being cosmopolitan and urbane. (I'm also shocked at some of the "better than you" attitudes.)

I'm lucky to work at a great steakhouse where I've been able to work my way through school on my own dime. The guests are great and I'm able to give them impeccable service. Canadians aren't anyone to look down upon: I remember providing a sumptuous dinner for two with a final bill of $2,000.

My heart does go out to host who has apparently been burned after providing perfect service and getting a bruise to the ego/ setback to the retirement fund at the end of the meal. I know what it's like to work under the sword of Damocles. Minding all the details. Pampering beyond expectation. Navigating the inferno of a restaurant. Making experiences. Then only to be used in the end.

But it's worth it. I love taking care of you. I love seeing your eyes sparkle on your 20th wedding anniversary. I love the uproar of laughter from a girls night out. I love welcoming you back home from Afghanistan where you held onto a small tin of Morton's mints to remind you of the good life that we have here in America. I love it.

In the end, recognize bad and good service. Tip accordingly. It's an honor system. Understand other cultures and when in Rome do as the Romans. Everyone can learn to better apply the later.

allaboutmusic

This is where the cultural difference lies. Looking at the American system from the viewpoint of the rest of the world, the problem isn't that I'm not tipping - the "problem" is a strange system where you are relying on goodwill or social compliance. It doesn't make sense to have to tip the cashier at the supermarket a percentage of your grocery bill, the pump attendant a percentage of your gas bill.

I know you're supposed to tip the bellhop who brings your luggage to your room (and I do), but if you tip them, then why not tip the builders who carried the bricks to the building site of your house? Because that cost is built into the cost of your house, of course. As far as I am concerned, tipping a bellhop is a device used to show off, to state how superior you are: "I'm so rich that I pay someone to carry my luggage for me instead of pulling my Samsonite into the lift on my own."

Hence the alternate system where the cost of being served is built into the price of the product. Does that put up prices? Sure... but the consumer would have had to pay that anyway according to the compulsory-tipping system. If you get great service, then leave a tip and it really means something. If you get bad service, then speak to the manager, or simply don't eat there again.

That having been said, whenever I have been back in the US I always tipped 15-20%. I know that the job is hard, and I appreciate the way service staff feel about poor tipping in the light of how the system works so I pay out... but I still think it's a really, really stupid system.

Daniel_

I'm sorry - I have to take issue with this.

I worked for a couple of years in retail - all the shit of food service but nobody gave me a present if they really liked the way I got their cans of soup.

I worked part time in a nursing home as a student to pay my way - nobody gave me a gift because I was really good at wiping their liquid shit from their chair.

Food service is not the only service industry.

Why do people in food service think they automatically DESERVE a present?

I think my pay could be better, but if I insisted that my customers pay a 15% service charge for the honour of buying from me, I'd be in prison for corruption.

To answer the OP, I tip for good service - I add about 10% if it was good. But my choice of what is good may not be the same as yours - if you hassle me (as all US waiters that ever served me did) about refills or send five people to ask if I'm enjoying my meal - you get less, or none.

I add my tip to the cheque/card - that way it can be honestly shared through the kitchen staff etc.

If I'm in a dine & dash mood, I expect rapid no frills service, and I expect to pay what's on the menu.

If it's obligatory that we all pay 15%, and 25% for great service, then put the frigging prices up on the menu.

If your pay sucks, leave the job and as an earlier person has posted - learn to type.

I worked hard to get a job that is not on minimum wage, if you are in a crappy job, work hard to better yourself.

I sympathise, and if you do a really good job, I'll be generous - but it's not automatic.

You know the name for a gift you cannot choose to ignore? A tax.

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Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
And everthing is Green and Submarine
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silent_jay

Have you read my posts yet? I already said I fuckin tip 10-15%, stop being a jackass and read my posts. I can afford to leave a decent tip, I tip the norm, what is decent to you may not be decent to me. I don't need a better job, I'm not the one pissing and moaning because people didn't GIVE them enough of a tip, be happy with what you get, the alternative is that you could get sweet fuck all.

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filtherton

I'm fairly certain, though i haven't done the math, that if tipping were to end tomorrow, there would be a decrease in service quality, as well as an increase in prices in all industries that rely on tipping. A lot of people work in tip-jobs because when tips are good you can make a lot of money. They work hard under the assumption that they will be rewarded with a tip- take that away and you have someone who only needs to make sure that they don't annoy you enough for you to ask to speak with the manager. On the other side, i think that if no one tipped, the cost of eating out would increase since employers would have to raise their wages to compensate for the fact that a lot fewer people would be willing or able to work for sub or close to minimum wages. Then tipping would essentially be compulsory, and the folks who don't believe in it wouldn't be able to get what is essentially a free ride from those who do.

Leto

Just want to point out that Bossnass does admit to being a generous tipper. Just mentioning.


Host, I find your argument to be compelling and logical. A lot of people are missing the point that you are asking why visitors don't educate themselves on the local customs (in this case of the US). I know that a lot of Canadians automically assume that our southern cousins are very similar to us, and in most of our customs, so that our average tipping amount seems to be adequate, and non-controversial.

I for one never considered that I would have to research tipping practices in the US, but would definitely have to if I went to, Let's say France. But after reading this, I will definitely take more notice.

It does seem that tipping in the US is somewhat inflated. and Bossnass... are you nuts???

Daniel_

WTF?

You're happy to pay 15% even if you admit the service was shitty?

Can you explain? I'm confused.

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╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗
Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
And everthing is Green and Submarine
╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

Leto

A woman after my own heart....

Daniel_

We're being inconsistent. On the one hand people explain that you should tip high, so the barstaff and kitchen staff get their share.

Next someone says that if the meal sucked, it wasn't the waiter's fault, but the kitchen or barman, and so the tip should be just as high.

I'm puzzled...

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╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗
Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
And everthing is Green and Submarine
╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

Willravel

15% is a minimum. I still got food and they still worked so it's not as if I'm paying for nothing. My default tip for food is 20%. For alcohol, my default tip is 30%. For a haircut, it's 15% rounded up to the next $10.

Ustwo

You got a higher wage, but yes there are other customer service jobs out there, no need to be offended.


Because at the time I was getting something like 2.50 an hour and a tip was built into my pay, even by the federal government. It wasn't a present.

Ummm I could charge 15% more in a heartbeat if I liked at my work, without going to prison, but its a competition thing. No idea why you go to prison for higher prices.

You know when I worked as a waiter I got to know the door staff VERY well, they kept the Europeans from my section if possible.

Doesn't work that way, most establishments you tip the kitchen/bar based on your sales %, not your tips. If you get crappy tips or great ones it doesn't matter, you paid a set %. No cheating was possible that way.

Well now you know.

Its not a minimum wage job. If everyone acted like you the base pay would be higher to make up for your cheapskatedness and the prices on the menu would be directly higher plus you would get shittier service. I think its amusing you found American service to be too smothering, my guess is you are used to crappy service by now.

So that would be your full generous 10%?

No, its an honor system. If you get crappy service you are not expected to tip well. It gives you the ability to decide what that persons labor was worth to you under the circumstance. A tax you gotta pay shitty service or otherwise, and thats what your attitude would end up resulting if everyone was like you. If your non-minimum wage job is so fantastic, you can afford the % and you now know how the system works. Instead you are trying to say how it SHOULD work according you to, and it doesn't.

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Bossnass

Yeah, a little. But I've dealt with assholes on the other end, and I actually did really appreciate it when I (or my then girlfriend now wife) earned a decent tip. And in the couple years or so, we've started to have way more income than we expected to have- and are also more busy than we expected to be- and we enjoy being able to go out for meals. I've been regular enough and tipped well enough that we get exceptional service at a couple local places. Better tables, the odd comped drink or appetizer/dessert, getting in on a busy night without reservations, etc.

Also keep in mind that I have no qualms with tipping poorly when appropriate.

Daniel_

I think we'r here in what Shaw called "two countries divided by a common language".

In England, we have a SERVICE CHARGE - in the region of 15% and written there on the bill. We also have a GRATUITY (or TIP) it's a gift given over and above other charges for good service. If I get good service, I give extra money - about 10%.

In America, you have a GRATUITY (or TIP) which is a nearly mandatory charge expected to be levied on all diners for about 15 - 20%.

Let's not get cross - let's just agree we have different uses for the same word.

That's OK then - I wasn't trying to be snotty.

I didn't realise that, I can understand the angst now.

I could put prices up, but I was talking about ex gratia payments into my pocet - not billable product pricing. In Englsh law, that's a bribe.

Sorry to hear that - I'm not a fan of racism and stereotyping. You missed out on some great people. Life's about experience, not just cash.

Don't understand this...

Now I do.

I do not agree that a better wage would make for crappy service. If waiting were a profession that people aspired to with good pay and progression then service would be good in the same way that other skilled professions give good service. For as long as waiting is a minimum wage job at the bottom of the heap, the only way you get good service is to pay a gratuity.

See my earlier post - I pay 10%, ON TOP OF the service charge. So sometimes I pay up to 25% for great service.

I'm saying hw it works HERE and trying to express without rancour that I don't really get how it works THERE.

I really hope I've not offended anyone.

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╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗
Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
And everthing is Green and Submarine
╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

Jinn

Just because you keep saying something doesn't mean it's true. Handing out money because someone else thinks you should is not a sign of maturity.

If that's how you want to rationalize it to yourself, then by all means do so. But claiming that others lack maturity for making responsible money decisions is asinine.

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Infinite_Loser

No responsible money making decisions here. I'm just cheap.

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Challah

Hi, I'm Canadian. I lived in the States for ~3 years and now visit once every few years. I tip on the same scale, regardless of where I am. By default, I start at 0%. I will tip between 0% and 40%, depending on the quality of the service and the establishment. The average for me is probably 15-20%. I recognize that waiters/waitresses are generally paid very poorly, but having bad minimum wage laws isn't enough to guilt me into paying extra. I didn't agree to that and it's stupid to expect people to commit to paying invisible fees before they've even sat down.

Destrox

I am quite appalled by some of your replies, honestly have you never worked in a public sector before?

I've done my years working with the public in sales and food industry, it is not easy and you do it because you have to. Not because its fun.

In the USA, it is simply standard that you give a tip. Min should start at 15% unless it was POOR service. Not because you are a selfish ignorant ass and feel superior to the person who is just trying to make a living.

They get paid next to nothing and require the tips to make their pay, thats how it is in this country for servers/waiters. You cant change the way the system works by ignoring it. You just get singled out as a asshole by those who did the dirty work for you.

Honestly the worst people I have *EVER* had to deal with while working in the public and being at their mercy goes like this: ( I don't hate any of your cultures, this is just a opinion from watching and working with your people as tourist.)

1) Chinese - You come in large groups, make a massive mess, and are the cheapest people I ever came across. Rude as hell too.

2) Canadians. Surprise, you're #2 on our books. You too make large messes, are quite rude at times, and leave minimal tips if any.

My favorite?
Japanese & The occasional eastern-Europe individuals.
They are more polite, they even understand the tipping system and get within our standard zone for acceptable range.

I have no inner hatred for you Canadians, but as tourist you're amongst the worse we get. I'm sure it works both ways for the "stupid Americans" as some of you just love to ignorantly say.

I've spoken to many people over the years about these things, and it is quite a general consensus for what I've said and even what the OP wrote.

Ace_of_spades, I hate to call out names specifically, but you fit the standard tourist attitude that we hate and don't be surprised if you get poor quality. We typically can see it a mile away, or in this the standard food industry case: a few booths away.

Just my .02, and I'm 100% sure that those of you who hold that die-hard attitude that tips are a joke don't give a rats-ass about it. But keep the change.

And quite honestly, when people are tourist they feel more anonymous, and the feeling that they can just do whatever they want because of the fact they are tourist. It sadly only tarnishes the place they came from.

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Willravel

In this case it sure is. It's also pretty general knowledge that if you don't tip you're either poor or bitter. Neither of those really say "I'm a mature adult".

Daniel_

Tell that to Rosa Parks.

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╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗
Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
And everthing is Green and Submarine
╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

m0rpheus

My default is 15%. That's for average service. Good service gets 20% or so. Great service even more.
However paying for shit service is stupid.
Example: My birthday a few years ago, the restaurant was almost empty. The waitress disappeared for more than an hour between serving our drinks/salads and me finally flagging her down (the first I had seen her) to ask about the rest of our meal. She (in a very bitchy tone) says she'll have to check. It takes her another twenty minutes. She finally comes back to serve us our meal. No apology for forgetting us for an hour, never asking how we are doing/need drinks/etc. Should I pay extra for this "service"?

Long story short, bad service = shit/no tip. Don't like it? Do a better job. I have left a $15 tip on a $35 meal before because the service was fantastic.

(as far as a haircut goes if I rounded up to the next $10 that would be an 80% tip so no)

As far as delivery guys go? Lets say the guy on the phone says it'll be 45 minutes.
Get it here in 20 or so and get a good tip (20-25%).
Get here in before the 45 minutes and get an average tip (15%)
Get it here in an hour, get a couple bucks, but guess what? If you take an hour and a half to deliver my meal you aren't getting a tip and no, I don't care what took you so long.

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Willravel

Seriously? Whoa. Do you get like a buzz or something?

m0rpheus

Nah, I just go to a cheap place and get a basic cut for 11 bucks. So tipping $9? No.

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Willravel

$9 would be an 80% tip on an $11 haircut?

My corn rows were like $100....

stevie667

10%, if you do a good job more, if you don't less, if i'm not really bothered then you get that.

F'ing deal with it.

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Martian

Sums up my opinion on the matter nicely.

In Canada tips aren't taxed and servers make a decent wage. Therefore, a 15% tip is quite reasonable. Like most of my countrymen I use that as the average, with variations according to the quality of service.

I'm sorry your system is so fucked up, truly I am. If it were up to me the wait staff would get a reasonable wage, like everyone else does. However, the fact that your tips are considered part of your regular earnings rather than the gratuity they're supposed to be, that's not my fault. I'll march in a rally if you hold one, but following the rules of a fucked up system is not the way to go about changing it.

Wait staff are one of the groups who seem to have been arbitrarily selected as people we tip. Most of us don't tip people in other service industries. How many of you tip the cashier at the grocery store? Or the customer service guy at your local electronics store? These are also people who provide a service and from where I'm sitting it would seem that they have to put up with most of the same bullshit servers do. Aside from a crappy wage, what makes the servers any different?

It's not a question of how much money I make. If I didn't make enough money to eat out, I wouldn't be eating out. It's not a question of who's responsible for what; in my opinion the waiter is entirely responsible for making sure my order is correct, as they're the person who relays the order from my table to the kitchen and ferries the food from the kitchen back to my table. If there's something wrong with the order, the waiter should catch it. I don't care how busy you are, I don't care that boss pays you a shitty wage and I don't care that your goldfish died today and you are too distraught to do your job properly. The bottom line is I'm not the one employing you and if you have an issue with the money you make you ought to take it up with your employer rather than coming to me with cap in hand. If you do a poor job, what the hell should I tip you for? Why should I reward bad service?

Also, this idea of spitting or whatever else in the food is supremely fucked up and just makes me want to deny servers all of my money by not eating out. A gratuity is for above average service and holding my dinner hostage for better tips is pretty low, as far as I'm concerned.

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Challah

Right, because tourists should be expected to make up for the crappy minimum wage laws of countries they visit. Tipping is the norm in the States and I understand that it's nice when tourists cough up the traditional ~15% for a tip, but you can't honestly believe that people in the food service industry have a natural right to it. That's just silly.

abaya

Hi, I'm an American (when I feel like it). I worked as a waitress from age 14-17 at my parents' restaurant--no hourly wage to speak of, so ALL I took home were tips, and that was my sole spending money throughout high school. And still, I have never, in my life, even considered paying 20% as a tip to ANYONE in the service industry, whatsoever. 10-15%, and that's not gonna change.

I agree with you for the most part, Shani. I've been living in a country where it isn't done, ever, for anything... and it's the most liberating feeling at the end of a meal or haircut or whatever, to just pay the amount stated on the menu, and walk out. No calculations, no hemming and hawing, no nothing.

However, I will mention a downside. The service is SHIT... because their wages are set, and they don't care WHAT you think of their level of courtesy, the quality of the food, or anything. They're just there to shuffle the food around and charge your card, because they have no personal vested interest in kissing ass so that they can make a living wage.

So, I don't know which is worse. When in the US, I tip like an average American (not 20%!) and expect some half-decent service. When in Iceland, the concept of a "tip" buries itself in the back of my brain, and I am quite happy about that... but I still get frustrated with the piss-poor service, and start missing the tip motivation in other countries. Go figure.

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Ace_O_Spades

Pretty much

Fix your own damn country. You get 15% just like the rest of the restaurants I go to. More if the service is outstanding, less if the service sucks

Them's the breaks... Live with it, and stop complaining.

I refuse to compensate for your broken country

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Feh.

highthief

I find it strange that many people in a country whose economy and society was built by capitalists - getting paid and getting ahead and getting rewarded by providing an excellent service, a better way of doing things, and greater efficiencies - should be so bent out of shape by another culture not automatically rewarding poor service.

I thought we were the socialists?

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Challah

Yup, we're the filthy reds. Reds that "make large messes, are quite rude at times, and leave minimal tips if any."

Ustwo

My guess is that socialism has you used to shitty service that you think is free because you don't see pay the price directly and have no say in how much to spend.

Most likely to poor to eat out often to boot

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Lasereth

GOOD GOD what a collection of assholes in this thread.

1. Waiters and waitresses make $2.50 an hour on average. Tips are their PAY. Tips aren't a privilege. They are how the person lives. Good tipping is a privilege, but helping the person REACH MINIMUM WAGE shouldn't be something that needs to be debated by a genuinely kind person.

2. I like all the people complaining about their food coming out wrong or taking forever so the server gets no tip. Think about it: does your waitress make your fucking food? No, they don't. As a matter of fact, <I>they have no control over when it is ready</I>. So you leaving a bad tip because your food came out late solves nothing. Talk to the manager and get a discount but don't fuck over your server for something beyond their control. If the food comes out wrong (OH GOD MY SANDWICH HAS PICKLES, NO TIP!!!!!!), do you think maybe the waiter placed the pickles on to spite you? Or someone in the kitchen screwed up? Again, not leaving a tip or leaving a shitty tip is hurting the wait staff for something the kitchen fucked up.

I was a at a restaurant once with my friends. We ordered our food and sure enough it took a damn hour for it to come out. All my friends kept rolling their eyes and saying "no tip for her." I stared at them and said, "why are you not leaving a tip?" "Uhh...it's been an hour." I replied: "What does that have to do with the waiter?" They looked at me dumbfounded. They all left a tip after that. I asked the waitress what was going on. 2 cooks and 2 waitresses didn't show up for work so it was literally 2 people running the entire restaurant. Yep, my friends were about to screw the waitress over for something beyond her control.

I <B>firmly</B> believe that if you ever treat a waiter or waitress rudely, talk to them like they're your bitch, yell at them, or skip their tip for one of the above, you're a closet asshole whether you want to admit it or not. You could create a universal law based on it. If you're rude to a waitress, you're an asshole, no exceptions.