I think we'r here in what Shaw called "two countries divided by a common language".

In England, we have a SERVICE CHARGE - in the region of 15% and written there on the bill. We also have a GRATUITY (or TIP) it's a gift given over and above other charges for good service. If I get good service, I give extra money - about 10%.

In America, you have a GRATUITY (or TIP) which is a nearly mandatory charge expected to be levied on all diners for about 15 - 20%.

Let's not get cross - let's just agree we have different uses for the same word. :thumbsup:

That's OK then - I wasn't trying to be snotty.

I didn't realise that, I can understand the angst now.

I could put prices up, but I was talking about ex gratia payments into my pocet - not billable product pricing. In Englsh law, that's a bribe.

Sorry to hear that - I'm not a fan of racism and stereotyping. You missed out on some great people. Life's about experience, not just cash.

Don't understand this...

Now I do.

I do not agree that a better wage would make for crappy service. If waiting were a profession that people aspired to with good pay and progression then service would be good in the same way that other skilled professions give good service. For as long as waiting is a minimum wage job at the bottom of the heap, the only way you get good service is to pay a gratuity.

See my earlier post - I pay 10%, ON TOP OF the service charge. So sometimes I pay up to 25% for great service.

I'm saying hw it works HERE and trying to express without rancour that I don't really get how it works THERE.

I really hope I've not offended anyone. :(

Just because you keep saying something doesn't mean it's true. Handing out money because someone else thinks you should is not a sign of maturity.

If that's how you want to rationalize it to yourself, then by all means do so. But claiming that others lack maturity for making responsible money decisions is asinine.

No responsible money making decisions here. I'm just cheap.

Hi, I'm Canadian. I lived in the States for ~3 years and now visit once every few years. I tip on the same scale, regardless of where I am. By default, I start at 0%. I will tip between 0% and 40%, depending on the quality of the service and the establishment. The average for me is probably 15-20%. I recognize that waiters/waitresses are generally paid very poorly, but having bad minimum wage laws isn't enough to guilt me into paying extra. I didn't agree to that and it's stupid to expect people to commit to paying invisible fees before they've even sat down.

I am quite appalled by some of your replies, honestly have you never worked in a public sector before?

I've done my years working with the public in sales and food industry, it is not easy and you do it because you have to. Not because its fun.

In the USA, it is simply standard that you give a tip. Min should start at 15% unless it was POOR service. Not because you are a selfish ignorant ass and feel superior to the person who is just trying to make a living.

They get paid next to nothing and require the tips to make their pay, thats how it is in this country for servers/waiters. You cant change the way the system works by ignoring it. You just get singled out as a asshole by those who did the dirty work for you.

Honestly the worst people I have *EVER* had to deal with while working in the public and being at their mercy goes like this: ( I don't hate any of your cultures, this is just a opinion from watching and working with your people as tourist.)

1) Chinese - You come in large groups, make a massive mess, and are the cheapest people I ever came across. Rude as hell too.

2) Canadians. Surprise, you're #2 on our books. You too make large messes, are quite rude at times, and leave minimal tips if any.

My favorite?
Japanese & The occasional eastern-Europe individuals.
They are more polite, they even understand the tipping system and get within our standard zone for acceptable range.

I have no inner hatred for you Canadians, but as tourist you're amongst the worse we get. I'm sure it works both ways for the "stupid Americans" as some of you just love to ignorantly say.

I've spoken to many people over the years about these things, and it is quite a general consensus for what I've said and even what the OP wrote.

Ace_of_spades, I hate to call out names specifically, but you fit the standard tourist attitude that we hate and don't be surprised if you get poor quality. We typically can see it a mile away, or in this the standard food industry case: a few booths away.

Just my .02, and I'm 100% sure that those of you who hold that die-hard attitude that tips are a joke don't give a rats-ass about it. But keep the change.

And quite honestly, when people are tourist they feel more anonymous, and the feeling that they can just do whatever they want because of the fact they are tourist. It sadly only tarnishes the place they came from.

In this case it sure is. It's also pretty general knowledge that if you don't tip you're either poor or bitter. Neither of those really say "I'm a mature adult".

Tell that to Rosa Parks.

My default is 15%. That's for average service. Good service gets 20% or so. Great service even more.
However paying for shit service is stupid.
Example: My birthday a few years ago, the restaurant was almost empty. The waitress disappeared for more than an hour between serving our drinks/salads and me finally flagging her down (the first I had seen her) to ask about the rest of our meal. She (in a very bitchy tone) says she'll have to check. It takes her another twenty minutes. She finally comes back to serve us our meal. No apology for forgetting us for an hour, never asking how we are doing/need drinks/etc. Should I pay extra for this "service"?

Long story short, bad service = shit/no tip. Don't like it? Do a better job. I have left a $15 tip on a $35 meal before because the service was fantastic.

(as far as a haircut goes if I rounded up to the next $10 that would be an 80% tip so no)

As far as delivery guys go? Lets say the guy on the phone says it'll be 45 minutes.
Get it here in 20 or so and get a good tip (20-25%).
Get here in before the 45 minutes and get an average tip (15%)
Get it here in an hour, get a couple bucks, but guess what? If you take an hour and a half to deliver my meal you aren't getting a tip and no, I don't care what took you so long.

Seriously? Whoa. Do you get like a buzz or something?

Nah, I just go to a cheap place and get a basic cut for 11 bucks. So tipping $9? No. :lol:

$9 would be an 80% tip on an $11 haircut?

My corn rows were like $100....:orly:

10%, if you do a good job more, if you don't less, if i'm not really bothered then you get that.

F'ing deal with it.

Sums up my opinion on the matter nicely.

In Canada tips aren't taxed and servers make a decent wage. Therefore, a 15% tip is quite reasonable. Like most of my countrymen I use that as the average, with variations according to the quality of service.

I'm sorry your system is so fucked up, truly I am. If it were up to me the wait staff would get a reasonable wage, like everyone else does. However, the fact that your tips are considered part of your regular earnings rather than the gratuity they're supposed to be, that's not my fault. I'll march in a rally if you hold one, but following the rules of a fucked up system is not the way to go about changing it.

Wait staff are one of the groups who seem to have been arbitrarily selected as people we tip. Most of us don't tip people in other service industries. How many of you tip the cashier at the grocery store? Or the customer service guy at your local electronics store? These are also people who provide a service and from where I'm sitting it would seem that they have to put up with most of the same bullshit servers do. Aside from a crappy wage, what makes the servers any different?

It's not a question of how much money I make. If I didn't make enough money to eat out, I wouldn't be eating out. It's not a question of who's responsible for what; in my opinion the waiter is entirely responsible for making sure my order is correct, as they're the person who relays the order from my table to the kitchen and ferries the food from the kitchen back to my table. If there's something wrong with the order, the waiter should catch it. I don't care how busy you are, I don't care that boss pays you a shitty wage and I don't care that your goldfish died today and you are too distraught to do your job properly. The bottom line is I'm not the one employing you and if you have an issue with the money you make you ought to take it up with your employer rather than coming to me with cap in hand. If you do a poor job, what the hell should I tip you for? Why should I reward bad service?

Also, this idea of spitting or whatever else in the food is supremely fucked up and just makes me want to deny servers all of my money by not eating out. A gratuity is for above average service and holding my dinner hostage for better tips is pretty low, as far as I'm concerned.

Right, because tourists should be expected to make up for the crappy minimum wage laws of countries they visit. Tipping is the norm in the States and I understand that it's nice when tourists cough up the traditional ~15% for a tip, but you can't honestly believe that people in the food service industry have a natural right to it. That's just silly.

Hi, I'm an American (when I feel like it). I worked as a waitress from age 14-17 at my parents' restaurant--no hourly wage to speak of, so ALL I took home were tips, and that was my sole spending money throughout high school. And still, I have never, in my life, even considered paying 20% as a tip to ANYONE in the service industry, whatsoever. 10-15%, and that's not gonna change.

I agree with you for the most part, Shani. I've been living in a country where it isn't done, ever, for anything... and it's the most liberating feeling at the end of a meal or haircut or whatever, to just pay the amount stated on the menu, and walk out. No calculations, no hemming and hawing, no nothing.

However, I will mention a downside. The service is SHIT... because their wages are set, and they don't care WHAT you think of their level of courtesy, the quality of the food, or anything. They're just there to shuffle the food around and charge your card, because they have no personal vested interest in kissing ass so that they can make a living wage.

So, I don't know which is worse. When in the US, I tip like an average American (not 20%!) and expect some half-decent service. When in Iceland, the concept of a "tip" buries itself in the back of my brain, and I am quite happy about that... but I still get frustrated with the piss-poor service, and start missing the tip motivation in other countries. Go figure.

Pretty much

Fix your own damn country. You get 15% just like the rest of the restaurants I go to. More if the service is outstanding, less if the service sucks

Them's the breaks... Live with it, and stop complaining.

I refuse to compensate for your broken country

I find it strange that many people in a country whose economy and society was built by capitalists - getting paid and getting ahead and getting rewarded by providing an excellent service, a better way of doing things, and greater efficiencies - should be so bent out of shape by another culture not automatically rewarding poor service.

I thought we were the socialists?

Yup, we're the filthy reds. Reds that "make large messes, are quite rude at times, and leave minimal tips if any."

My guess is that socialism has you used to shitty service that you think is free because you don't see pay the price directly and have no say in how much to spend.

Most likely to poor to eat out often to boot ;)

GOOD GOD what a collection of assholes in this thread.

1. Waiters and waitresses make $2.50 an hour on average. Tips are their PAY. Tips aren't a privilege. They are how the person lives. Good tipping is a privilege, but helping the person REACH MINIMUM WAGE shouldn't be something that needs to be debated by a genuinely kind person.

2. I like all the people complaining about their food coming out wrong or taking forever so the server gets no tip. Think about it: does your waitress make your fucking food? No, they don't. As a matter of fact, <I>they have no control over when it is ready</I>. So you leaving a bad tip because your food came out late solves nothing. Talk to the manager and get a discount but don't fuck over your server for something beyond their control. If the food comes out wrong (OH GOD MY SANDWICH HAS PICKLES, NO TIP!!!!!!), do you think maybe the waiter placed the pickles on to spite you? Or someone in the kitchen screwed up? Again, not leaving a tip or leaving a shitty tip is hurting the wait staff for something the kitchen fucked up.

I was a at a restaurant once with my friends. We ordered our food and sure enough it took a damn hour for it to come out. All my friends kept rolling their eyes and saying "no tip for her." I stared at them and said, "why are you not leaving a tip?" "Uhh...it's been an hour." I replied: "What does that have to do with the waiter?" They looked at me dumbfounded. They all left a tip after that. I asked the waitress what was going on. 2 cooks and 2 waitresses didn't show up for work so it was literally 2 people running the entire restaurant. Yep, my friends were about to screw the waitress over for something beyond her control.

I <B>firmly</B> believe that if you ever treat a waiter or waitress rudely, talk to them like they're your bitch, yell at them, or skip their tip for one of the above, you're a closet asshole whether you want to admit it or not. You could create a universal law based on it. If you're rude to a waitress, you're an asshole, no exceptions.

No exceptions you say? Guess being a waiter or waitress is like a carte blanche to do anything you want. I may have to change jobs.

I agree. I don't think that tipping is outrageous. Yes, wait staff could be paid more. Those costs would then be built into the prices on the menu. Ideally, the tipping option provides a benefit to both the worker and the consumer. The better wait staff get better tips, and the consumers get better service because wait staff are paid based on performance. Tipping gives the consumer a say.

I still don't understand how this is my problem. Maybe I am an asshole for not buying the whole sympathy argument. If that's the case, I'm comfortable with it. It's unfortunate that they don't get a proper wage; on the other hand, I'm not the one who set their wage so low. I don't see how I'm responsible to make up the difference.

Food service is unskilled labour. There are very few people who can't wait tables. Expecting exorbitant amounts of money for a job almost anyone can do is unreasonable. That said, $2.50 an hour is a slave wage and it's unfortunate that these people get paid so little. If I could change the laws and see to it that they were fairly compensated for their labour, I'd do it in a heartbeat. On the other hand, expecting me to make up the difference out of my own pocket is a bit absurd.

I've done some busking before to make a bit of extra cash, and it's my opinion that that is the job where you really see the best and worst of people. A busker's pay is directly related to the quality of his performance; passers-by don't feel the need to throw a dollar in the case just for the privelege of walking past. You may argue that it's a different situation, but I don't think it really is. Both are gratuities. The only difference is some arbitrary rule that the person who brings me my dinner is somehow automatically deserving of extra compensation.

I don't think of myself as any better than these people. Any job is better than no job, and I can get behind that. If waiting tables is all you're qualified for, then it's better that than unemployment. But if your employer isn't paying you enough to do it, I'd strongly suggest seeking employment elsewhere. 'Won't somebody think of the waiter's children?!' is not a sound argument.

Wouldn't it go the other way? Wait staff here get a higher hourly wage. As they're not dependent on our tips to live, we can leave a tip that directly reflects the level of service received. Therefore, I would expect that the person serving me at a restaurant would work harder for a tip, since it isn't mandatory.

I'm not sure that I buy the sympathy argument either.

Ideally, wait staff get the proper wage. That proper wage is made up of an hourly wage provided by the employer and a tip (based on performance) provided by the consumer. You, as the consumer, aren't making up the difference. Your contribution is part of the proper wage. You get to decide the wage paid for services based on your assessment of those services. (Rather than paying via an increase in prices whatever the employer decides to pay their employees).

I normaly tip anywhere from 15-30% depending on food and service. Amazing food and Amazing service can get as high as 40% from me if I am with friends. Throwing in a 5 each for a tip is no big deal (on a 10 dollar meal each, thats 50%).

But on the other hand if the food is terrible, the service is bad, the waiters/cooks are jackasses, the place is dirty, employees are standing around being fuckers. I will tip 1 penny. If I am miserable the entire time and can't wait to get the hell out of there I generally just eat and get out as fast as is humanly possible, and leave a 1 cent tip to let them know they are fucking assholes.

Which is all well and good, except that making sure the wait staff get a proper wage isn't my responsibility as a consumer. That's between the employee and the employer, and if the employee is unsatisfied with what their employer is paying they're free to seek employment elsewhere. Jobs at Walmart or in grocery stores are no harder to get and don't pay abysmally low wages. They may not pay good wages, exactly, but that's the nature of the beast when performing unskilled labour.

As to the argument about a tip reflecting service, I refer you to my rebuttal of Ustwo above. If the wait staff are getting paid a reasonable wage I'm free to leave a tip that directly reflects the level of service given. The wait staff, in turn, will work harder for my tip, since I'm not required to leave one. I've had some pretty poor service in my day (and tipped accordingly), but I have never once been forced to wait an hour or more for my food.

Expecting tips to meet minimum wage is fucked up. A tip is a gratuity, a gift left for above average service. If the service is poor, the tip is poor or non-existent and I don't care how little the wait staff is paid. It's not my fault.

wait... what the hell? Where do you live? The lowest wage I have ever heard a waiter making here is around $8/hour (in the last 2 years) at a shitty restaurant. People who work at nice restaurants make about $12+/hour. Plus tips on top of that. Lets put it this way, I know a guy who was a welder making about $20 an hour and he quit to become a waiter. He made the same amount of money overall being a waiter and he met lots of girls who he then slept with. He worked at Boston Pizza, thats just your average joe restaurant.

I go to a restaurant to study before exams. I sit there for 5+ hours with a bowl of soup, some crackers, and a glass of water with lemon. My bill is usually under $5. I leave a $20 since I just monopolized a table for an unreasonable amount of time.


Two of my roomates worked at a higher-end Italian cuisine establishment in Utah making $2.50/hour + tips from the years 2000 - 2003. It was pretty much the standard for any restaurant out there to pay just as poorly. Most states currently have a significantly lower minimum wage for servers.

Thats a United States of America standard set Federal Government rate.

Many employers use it because they can pay bottom dollar, and earn maximum cash.

Its one of many things that need to be killed.

Raise the prices 15% on all food, so long as the wait staff and bus's get paid more directly from it.

I wont see any difference since I pay that on the min, just the assholes out there will be hurt by it.

Edit**

Details for my state:

Minimum Wage Rate: $7.15 per hour Effective July 1, 2007. $7.25 per hour Effective July 24, 2009. (Except as Described Below and Within)

Tipped Employees: An employer may pay a minimum of $2.83 per hour to an employee who makes $30.00 per month in tips. The employer must make up the difference if the tips and $2.83 do not meet the regular Pennsylvania minimum wage.

In the end you can now earn minimum wage, but very few ever do. Its easy to make above and beyond min wage as a waiter. You just get the occasional schmuck here and there who feels they don't need to tip.

So if I'm understanding that correctly, in Pennsylvania if a waiter doesn't make minimum wage based on $2.83/hour+tips, the employer will be forced to pay the employee minimum wage anyway? Is the argument, then, that the employee deserves more than minimum wage regardless of service rendered?

Why not just pay the employees minimum wage and skip all the hassle? After all, the whole point of setting a minimum wage is to make sure that all employees receive reasonable compensation for their work. Creating a sub-group who can be paid less than minimum wage defeats the purpose of having one.

From what I can see, the arguments for mandatory tipping here are either emotionally driven or based on the argument that mandatory tipping ensures better service, despite the fact that the server is entitled to a gratuity regardless of the level of service received. The second argument is flawed, as a tip that reflects the service given creates a direct feedback loop that causes servers to work harder for their gratuity. For the first argument, see my title. I don't care. I'm not crying for the servers. If they're not getting paid enough, they're the ones who need to do something about it. Not me.

Only an idiot would be a waiter for minimum wage. The trick is getting more than minimum wage and also insuring that the employee still makes it.

The reason anyone who doesn't suck as a waiter doesn't like straight payment is that they can make MORE if they are good at their job.

You take away tipping and no I'd not have made sure your dining experience was as pleasurable as possible, I'll be in the back hitting on the women who work with me, shame your burger is cold.

I don't have much to add to the tipping conversation other to say I tip well unless the service sucks. If it sucks I leave 15% and if it really sucks I leave a single dollar, regardless of total. I'm in my forties and can count on one hand the times I've done that.

But I really just popped in here because you hit a nerve here with me regarding your comments of US citizens traveling aboard. I've traveled a lot and I currently live in Mexico. If I walk out my front door and take a left for about 100 yards I can see if the cruise ships are in yet. So, yes it's tourist area. And I think US citizens should have to pass a test to leave the country. In the past six months I've over heard such classic comments as "how much is this in real money?' "This looks like it could be a nice place if it weren't for all the Mexicans." And one of my favorites to date- "Out of my way," as the 250lbs lady smashes her way to the front of a line, "I'm from Texas!"

And just about every drunk teenager just knows the waitress is "available" for a price and he has no qualms about asking her what that price is.

If you weren't from the US you'd have to conclude learning to stand in the way blocking the rest of the world in places such as cross walks, side walks, bus stops and store lanes must be a required in school in the US.

And if you're from the US standing in line is not for you, just barge directly to the front regardless of the situation.

I've had friends and family down repeatedly and I've all but given up on the popular Mayan ruin sites like Chichen Itza. Chechen Izta is a wide open area of about 5 square miles. In the entire area there are about six or seven spots where, if you really try, you can completely stop the flow of people. In these spots you will undoubtedly find either family from California trying to read an upside down map, a couple from Idaho eating their resort packed box lunch or a family of six from New Jersey debating whether they'd already seen the really big pyramid. Granted these are only a couple examples but I'm sure I'll be blessed with more every time I run into large groups of US citizens. It's aggravating and embarrassing all at the same time.

Tully Mars - You don't know what offensive behavior is until you are on a slow elevator full of French tourists in the summer. :sad:

Some things can't be unsmelt.

I had a cousin who was a park ranger and he several times had to stop European tourists from trying to pet the bears.

While I'm sure, due to a lack of interactions with a lot of other nations for the average citizen the average US tourist is worse, I think being an ignorant obnoxious tourist is one of the planets universals.

So if the waiter already makes more than minimum wage, there's really no difference to the customer if the employer pays his waitstaff minimum wage and raises the price of the goods 15% or so to make up the difference. And if the wait staff prefers to get paid an abysmally (and criminally, in just about every other developed nation) low wage on the basis that tips will more than make up the difference, then I don't see what all the fuss and bother is about. There is no place that I'm aware of where tipping is an enforced requirement. As a famous writer once said, you pays your money and you takes your chances.

You're skewing the argument. I'm not saying that all tips should be eliminated. I'm saying that regarding a tip as anything other than a bonus provided for service rendered is fundamentally flawed. Again, I'm not responsible for making sure wait staff get paid enough. I will gladly tip an amount that I feel reflects the quality of service. If the service is good, the tip is good. If the service is poor, the tip is poor. Creating some arbitrary floor on the tip amount does not encourage wait staff to work hard, since they know they'll be getting X amount anyway.

Well, there's a big sign outside Yellowstone stating "Grizzly Bears are dangerous, do not approach" I'm assuming it's not just there for the Europeans. And I heard a lady near the main lodge one day ask a ranger "What time do they put the animals up for the night?" She didn't sound French.

But at least all that's in the US. When you travel use some f'ing common sense.

Of course I've seen other nationalities act absurd as well. I remember being at MIA one day not long after 9-11 waiting in line at security. I watched and listened as the TSA agent politely asked a lady to remove her shoes. In a thick Italian accent she exclaimed "These shoes are Italian and I don't remove them for just anyone." Last I saw of her they were taking her behind a nice white screen, I swear I heard a surgical glove snap.

Ok Mr. Sensationalism!

I think it's obvious that I meant if you're rude because of late food, pickles on sandwich, etc.

That would be a great wrestling handle.

My, my, my. Hasn't Host created a firestorm. Nothing new there.

The most obvious thread running through this discussion is wounded Canadian pride. Really guys, you shouldn't fret. We know it is important to you to be loved by the world. And the world still loves you, really they do--even if you are the planet's worst tippers.

One thing is for certain: this is the first time I've agreed with host about anything. Go figure.

I'm a picky tipper, I suppose it's because my dad is so picky and I've just gotten it from him. My mother on the other hand...the waiter could slap her in the face and spit on her and she'd still tip 20%. Her mother was a waitress for a while so I suppose that it why my mother tips the way she does.

I went to a Japanese/Sushi restaurant the other night with my roommate and a friend. They seated us with some other friends they knew there rather quickly. From then on the service went down hill. It took them 15 minutes to get our drinks out to us, the waitress was rude, didn't offer me a refill until my food had been cooked and I was waiting on my check. The whole meal was awful, the food wasn't even good. I love Hibachi and was not impressed, been to over 50 Hibachi Restaurants in major cities across the south, so I know what's good. They overcharged me and took forever getting ANYTHING done. Very not impressed. There were about 3 waiters/waitresses manning 8 tables with 8 people a piece at each table. I left no tip and a note below saying "awful service, will not return."
Should of left a note saying: Heres a tip: "Serve Your Customers Better!"

That's probably one of the only times I have ever been so pissed off that I didn't tip. I also think they believe college students don't deserve the same time as the other people. Just ridiculous.

I guess I would rather be painted with the "I'm a bad tipper" brush than the "My country is nothing but fucking morons" brush.

I don't think that people should be forced to tip if they don't want to. If your server went the extra mile for you and the food was really good and you want to leave a nice big tip, well thats really nice of you. If your food was not any good and the waitress was a jerk then why should you be obligated to leave a tip? A tip is for good services rendered, if a 3 year old can give better service then you should not be given any money for what you have "accomplished". (IMO)

If you stop at the bar for a drink or three before you are escorted to a table in my section, as a courtesy to you, so that you are not subjected to the inconvenience of having to conduct more than one credit card transaction while patronizing our establishment, the amount you spent on drinks is transferred by your bartender, (your bar "tab") to the account of the server team you are seated in the dining room with.

You are not expected to leave a separate tip at the bar, if you accept the offer by your bartender to transfer your tab. 95 percent of the gross revenue in our establsihment, including tips, are paid by our patrons, via credit or debit/bank card transactions.

The gross amount including sales tax of your transfered bar tab is totaled nightly, with all other bar tabs transferred to tables assigned to us, is multiplied by .17, and that amount is deducted from our team's tip pool.

So, if you are seated at one of my tables and your tab of $50 is transfered from our bar to your combined bar and dining check, $8.50 is automatically deducted from our team's total daily tips. If you tip ten percent on the total bill, my partner and I end up paying $3.50 for your bar drinks, and if your total tab was $200 and you tipped us a total of $20, instead of the $40 tip we would predicatbly receive from local patrons (we lost the opportunity to serve them because you came into town and took their seats...)

...we end up with $11.50 for the "pleasure" of serving you, vs. $31.50 we would have received on the same amount from our regualr clientelle, plus the 3 percent, ($50 X .3 = $1.50) we would have received from the 20 percent tip, vs. the 17 percent tip we paid to the bar on your $50 bar tab transfer.

So we received the opportunity to serve you, and we grossed $11.50 froum your tip, vs., $33.00 on that same $200 check with the $50 bar tab in it, from the locals, and we sufffered the frustration of paying part of your bar tab.

The tips included in the 95 percent of transactions in our establishment that are "cashless", are paid to us weekly in a conventional paycheck. Payroll taxes are deducted identically to the way taxes on our $2.13 hourly wage are deducted.

We treat you with consideration, down to the detail of having a system intended to avoid you having to pay more than once, during your combined visit to our bar and our dining room.

There is no "alert" regarding any expected gratuity. Not on the wall, not printed in the menu. We have too high of a regard for you, our patrons, and too high of a regard for our own reputation and abilities, to ever mention or to print tipping or tipping guidelines. If we begin our business relationship with a low opinion of you, what does it speak to about us, an establishment patronized by less than the best cutomers?

Just as you are expected to make payments in the local currency or with credit cards honored in the country you are visiting, you are expected to "get up to speed" over a period of time, with how the dining relationship works. We don't discuss it with any of our patrons, we are literally at your
mercy. Our finest restaurants employ professional staffs. Do you want a 20year old university student helping you to choose a $200 bottle of cabernet, and then decanting and pouring it for you and your guests, or a professional with ten years experience and the familiarity of great American wines that frequent trips to Napa valley wineries and regular local tastings from wine distributors previewing, in house the newest available vintages and varietals, brings to your table.

We are instructed by our management and we agree to offer our best advice to you on our opinions of the best wines to accompany your menu selections and your varietal preference and not the most expensive. We want you to come back, and we want you to tell your friends how enjoyable your dining experience was.

At the fine dining level, "the business" is actually more of a venue to attract patrons who appreciate and regularly purchase high end, high mark up wine and champagne. We host famous and accomplished foreign and American patrons from all walks of life, from the hot football and basketball player to the cyclist Lance Armstrong and the statesman/cleric, from South Africa.

We enjoy a classless society in our best restaurants. You can come in and sit at the next table from a hollywood movie star or a prime minister. You can sit and sip your $2.00 ice tea next to the billionaire drinking the $750 a bottle, French Bordeaux.

I've asked you why you tip the way some of you do, and I've attempted to instruct you on our tipping customs and norms. Because I serve some of the most admired and accomplished people in the world, and received their praise and generous gratuities for the experiences I have helped them to enjoy, when you react by posting the insults some of you have, in that demeaning, "I am better than you are", tone, I know I am not the lowly creature you make me out to be.

I am a professional and I wait on many professional, well mannered, appreciative patrons. I work in a top level restaurant. The tipping arrangement, unspoken as it is, works well for us, more than ninety percent
of the time.

A set hourly wage rate would not suit the best and most experienced of my colleagues. Our culinary school trained chef, his kitchen staff, and our hospitality school trained managers, all work for a set rate of pay each day, negotiated and agreed upon in advance. No tip that you decide to leave is partly distributed to them, and they do not expect it.

This thread was inspired by an OP in another thread, authored by someone who was unaware of the origins of references by service staff in US restaurants to "Canadians". I don't condone stereotypes, but I understand how they come about.

When I worked in another city, a member of the local Canadian consul's office was a regular patron. When he was presented with his bill, he always provided a credit card and his Canadian diplomatic I.D., and instructed me to remove the sales tax from his bill, stating that he was exempted from having to pay it. The process required to remove the tax required contacting a manager and took several minutes to accomplish. This gentleman routinely tipped just ten percent on the total amount, after the tax was removed.

I never got the impression that his regular request to remove the tax was a stereotypical act by Canadian diplomats, but his tipping pattern was similar to what experience in the business had taught me.

I read calls for changing how we are compensated for serving you, and a myriad of opinions predicting why you would deduct from the upper limit of the amount you would tip for service. I know that no other method of compensating the best servers at the highest rated establishments would do justice to the level of service that they provide. Have you ever requested a round of drinks for you and your guests of your favorite "top shelf" beverage only to be told that it is unavailable at the bar, but, if you can put up with a brief delay, a member of your service team will be sent to a nearby liquor store to purchase it for you, from funds out of his own pocket, and after he returns pours all of your drinks, and has presented you with the bottle and its remaining contents, and your dinner bill, and after you've noticed and brought to your servers' attention, the ommission from your itemized bill, of the charge for the bottle or the drinks poured from it, only to be told by your server, there is no charge for it tonight sir, "it is on us"?

I've seen it happen, and many other inspriring gestures from both patrons and their servers. At what level dining experience, would you determine that a higher hourly wage, "built into the menu prices", compared to the way the best servers at the best restaurants are compensated, would be "good enough"? Where do you suppose those servers who are the best, working at the best places, came from?

Maybe from the restaurant you dine in this evening. I see too many of you posting in ways that are intended to shortchange me, but actually you are shortchanging yourselves, in ways you may not yet have enjoyed the life experience to appreciate.

Criticism of the obnoxious ways that American tourists conduct themselves in during foreign travel, are common in this thread, but there is an absence of opinion posted that these obnoxious tourists ever send home the employees of the businesses who host and serve them in those countries, poorer than they would have been if those Americans tourists had not patronized the businesses where those employees worked, that day.

The core of my communication to you is, because of my experiences dealing with some of your countrymen, I do not expect much from you, in exchange for providing you with the best service and overall dining experience I am able to. It isn't your fault, and I am not blaming you, but....now that I and others have explained to you why we have acquired such low expectations. you are responsible for how you react to the information we've shared with you.

Basically - no one here takes a tip for granted. Most people leave 15% for decent service - the best servers get more from most people because they actually try harder rather than expecting a hand out.

I love the way we're all "assholes" for daring to suggest rewarding good service and punishing bad.

Screwy.
That about sums up my feelings on tipping in America.

Surely a professional such as your self should be highly valued by your employer, and rewarded with financial compensation on par with the abilities you have?

I had the same reaction... $2.50 / hr???? wtf?? that's gotta be illegal. But then I constantly read about the scale from several posters in this thread and I guess it is quite common (albeit shocking) in several US states...
Casts a different light on the angst presented by some of our American friends.


huh? where did you distill that from?

That's an interesting point because it reveals more about what motivates service staff. Travelling in Italy and France, where tipping is built into the bill and not expected, for the most part we received excellent service.

I would say that the staff in these countries was motivated instead by the two following factors:

1.) Pride of place and workmanship.
2.) Chemistry with the customer.

This would explain why horrible service can always be found in Tourist trap restaurants, where out of place, distracted tourists meet disenfranchised waiters. It's the same for the bottom-line driven restaurants found in Hotels and Airports.

So it is possible to remove tipping from the equation and still have excellent service. You just have to have an elevated stature for service jobs and skills. Good luck with that though.

Yea thats about it, and yea this is the first time I have to agree with host on anything, ever.

Based on how cold it is in Chicago perhaps hell hath frozen over indeed.

Bitchy Canadians in the thread: You are lousy tippers, you don't have to like our system but its how its done, you now know better, if you continue to act like you are in Canada while in the US it just makes you an ugly tourist type.

Okay, I'm a fairly level headed guy. But I'm starting to get annoyed with the Pot calling the kettle black. :thumbsup:

host, I've worked as a waitress here in the UK for many years (only stopping recently when I moved), and I'd just like to say that I'd never been full aware of the elaborate tipping system you have in America as you detailed a few posts up. I'd like to suggest that it's very possible that many visitors to America simply aren't aware of the complexities of the system. Hell, it sounds to me like many Americans aren't fully aware of the intricacies of the tipping system.

I know you say foreigners should research American culture visiting, but American culture is one of the most publicised around the world through the media, movies etc, and a lot of what many people know about America and its values and cultural systems is learnt through the media. Naturally we assume everything we need to know is there. Strangely, tipping isn't covered a lot (or if it is, it assumes the viewer already knows about it).

You get what you earn.

When I joined the military I was paid $45cdn per -day- and trust me .. you earned EVERY hour's worth. That equates to $1.87 per hour. So piss off about not getting enough $$ when receiving a tip.

Pot, this is kettle com check over. Is this the same America talking about learning another countries system, fuckin hilarious, oh darn an ugly tourist type, better to be referred to that than as an American.:)

Guess being an asshat and not knowing what the hell you're doing is rewarded in America, wait of course it is, look at the man in charge.

Well, if host, ustwo and a few waiters are now mad at us, our work here is done, fellow Canucks.

(Wait til we tell them Obama is secretly a Canadian!)

They just don't get it, all we're trying to do is bring host and ustwo closer, and look they're already agreeing.

host.

First of all, I won't quote relevant sections, as that's quite the dissertation.

But what I'm wondering here is why complain so much about Canadians? Contrary to belief expressed above I'm not about Canadian pride in this thread; I just look at your system and I think it's screwed up. My opinion. On the other hand, there are cheapskate Americans out there as well. Some of your countrymen have admitted to tipping 10% or less in this very thread. Do you really see so many Canadians at your fine dining establishment in Georgia (nearly 1000 miles south of the border) that you feel the need to make the distinction?

For the record, if my server personally went to the liquor store in order to insure that I was able to drink my wine of choice, you can damn well bet that I'd tip more than 20%. That definitely qualifies as 'above and beyond'. On the other hand, like a great many people I do feel the tip should reflect the quality of service. I understand that you need those tips to live, but as I've pointed out above that's a system I don't agree with. If you don't agree with it either it's up to you to be the instrument of change. However, if you do agree with it (as seems to be the case), isn't it a situation of taking the good with the bad? If you would prefer that the bulk of your pay come through optional gratuities based on the premise that you can do better that way then if you were paid a proper wage, then it would seem only natural to me to expect that some of your patrons are going to abuse the system by paying less than you feel you're entitled to, or maybe even not paying at all. You can't have it both ways; if you're content to work for a slave wage and subsist on handouts, you have to accept that those handouts may not be what you expected. If you're not able to do that, maybe the current system doesn't suit you as well as you thought it did.

In other words, what the hell are you complaining about?

:thumbsup:

We're Canadian... We're all just cheap hippy commie leftist pacifist socialist ignorant bumbling buffoons. We're like the fuck-up kid brother that they feel the need to pat on the head and say, "Now have you learned your lesson? Go get'em champ!" without realizing the hypocricy of the statement:
"if you continue to act like you are in Canada while in the US it just makes you an ugly tourist type."

Thanks for the morning laugh, ustwo. You're rather good at it.

this killed me! lol

awesome!

oops i messed up the quote thingy and have to jet back to the office. sorry.

still you owe me a new keyboard!

I think this pretty much sums it all up perfectly. So the "shitty average tip" from us must be from the "average server". makes sense to me. you want to make more money, do a better job.

ROFL

A thank you to all non US posters who have responded to the idiosyncracies of the base wage and tipping custom/dynamics as they happen to be, here in the US, after several of us have described them to you.

That said, I have several observations to share about the reactions of a good many of you, including Americans who I have the good fortune not to have had to serve very often.

Some of you must be dining in some extremely mediocre restaurants, judging by your comments.

If you read the articles in the OP, they support my contention about the differences in tipping percentages in some US cities and the average tip prevalent in Canada.

The response to this data and to the thread title question was and continues to be a litany of complaints about bad service experiences, threats to tip lower in the future in reactiiin to anticipated bad service, and insulting and condascending remarks directed towards me and at others who have posted similarly to what I have posted.

At the end of it all, I am left with the impression in the article in the OP....no one has posted any link to data suggesting that average Canadian tips are higher than 15 percent, yet material exists....as I posted in the OP that supports higher average tipping percentages in the US, more than 25 percent higher than 15 percent.

Unless some new information is posted to change my impression, so far I am left to expect that if you come to my restaurant and have a drink at the bar and then dinner at one of my tables, even though it is the best of the best, I can expect that you will regard me as someone working at a menial task, akin to a beggar, and if I do everything absolutely to your satisfaction in serving you, I can look forward to, despite the details I have shared witg you, receiving a 15 percent tip from you, resulting in my service team paying our bar 2 percent of your drink tab.
I shudder to think how the experience of serving you in a restarant the next rung down, and lower will be. I thought it was a matter of informing you, but .....

One thing is abundantly clear from this thread, a lot of Canadians are assholes.

Its interesting when a country barely able to fund its wonderful healthcare system and beloved by the world since its powerless to do anything, even help out its own citizens abroad, can be just as arrogant as the citizens of a superpower.

So apparently being an asshole is universal, and in that case I'll take being an asshole American over an asshole Canadian any day.

Anything we post isn't going to change your mind, you're the best cut and paste man on the board, you'll just find another 'study' to support your opinion and nothing will change.

Like I said before if you're not happy with 15%, give it back I can use it, otherwise be thankful you got what you got and don't look a gift horse in the mouth, like I said before, the alternative is you couldn't have gotten fuck all.

Yawn and it's the usual ustwo threadjack to healthcare. So if you're a superpower it gives you a right to be arrogant? Thanks for that, helps me understand things a whole lot more

It seems clear to me that it is not a "gift horse". The tip is part of his wage. Being allowed to control such a large portion of a waiter's wage is a benefit given to diners in the US- you have say in how much you pay for a service rendered.

Ahhh so it's a benefit then, enough said then be happy with what you get, it is after all, up to me.

Just to clarrify and turn down the heat a bit, I think the intent of the OP is a query as to why visitors (and yes mainly Canadians) seem to ignore or be ignorant of the local tipping customs in the US.

It was not an intention or opportunity to snipe about super power this, or arrogant tourist that, or (good grief) a discussion about relative health care systems (yet again). Nor is it a chance to be condescending and holier than thou. I think that is beneath all of us here in this forum - I hope! Host has provided some valuable insite on this matter.

The logical outcome of a group of people (Canadians) behaving in a predictable and less than acceptable local manner (regardless of the cause) around tipping will be to engender a reaction that is unpopular.

I find it sad that I get lumped into a group of tightwads because I am Canadian. But, it seems that 15% gratuity will put me in that group because the data that Host has provided (let's ignore the source for now) indicates that this is below the US average of 18.7%.

If I want to have good service in a US restuarant I should be circumspect as about my origins (no wearing a Maple Leaf on my back, no loud boorish behaviour that would typify me as a tourist as it seems that tourists tend to be like this anywhere) and hope that my lack of accent doesn't give me away.

That's reality. The same reality will ensure that I don't drive a rental car in Miami, or book a vacation at a Mexican resort, or key in my PIN at an ATM without covering my hand.

Surely you are not calling your fellow posters "assholes"?

That's surely not within the spirit of the TFP ...

I think you guys are confused. While ustwo make speak with a certain swagger, he does not in fact speak for the certain portion of american tourists who behave badly. As far as i can tell he is just one person, so all this pot and kettle business in response to him calling out poorly behaved canadians is intellectually lazy.

I would also like to request that if you do tip, tip in canadian dollars.

Why not, he's already called us bitchy Canadians, seems about the usual.

Let's see, I go to a restaurant pay exorbitant prices for a dinner I could have made at half the cost and I am expected to add 20% to whatever the bill is?

Sounds like a tax to me.

I tip by service. If the server is polite, does a good job, allows me to feel comfortable and allows me and who I am with privacy, I'll tip well.

If the waiter treats me like shit, makes me feel like he/ she has better things to do or gets orders wrong, interrupts conversations and does so rudely, etc. I'll leave the tip I want.

Look, to me a tip is something I give out to show appreciation for the service. I expect the server to at the very least show appreciation for my business. It's one of the few ways I can truly show what I feel about a service.

I refuse to feel the "need" or "requirement" to tip. If the tip is mandatory, then add it to the price of the food and pay the servers more. If an establishment decides to add 17.5% as a courtesy so that I didn't have to figure out the tip.... I will NEVER do business there again. That establishment took away my right to decide for myself what I value the service at. They obviously do not care about my business.

Also, when I have wanted a TGIFriday's but didn't have that much money and was cheap on the tip, I tell the server this up front and usually they have understood, if they didn't and I got service I felt was different than the norm. I left nothing.

I don't think this belief system is just here in the US.

Not to threadjack but, this from the beginning bugs me, we can open a new thread for this:

Ummm, does this go for Illegal Immigrants also? Or do you have double standards for Legal visitors and people who illegally come here to live.

you don't have to like our system of tipping either but.......it's how it's done.





and if it was great service...you'd get "rewarded" with a great tip.


it is that easy folks.........suck it up.





thank you...............:thumbsup:

Slightly off-topic: If the service is absolutely terribly, I've been known to leave a $.02 tip.

Edit: If an American went to, say, Canada and refused to follow typical customary practices, (s)he would probably receive the 'stupid American' label. Yet, if that same Canadian came to the U.S. and didn't follow typical customary practices, then it's because he's not obligated to? Ehhh... Maybe I'm missing something

(Granted, I'm not the greatest tipper in the world, so disregard what I say.)

I guess that's putting in your 2 cents.

:thumbsup:

I will take this one step further.....If I see any notification that they automatically add the gratuity (except in the case of a large party) I will get up and walk out...and never go back for the exact same reason

They do this in the UK, so don't make up your mind until you've had REAL bangers and mash with a REAL beer. OMG, sooo good. :thumbsup:

In the UK its dif....thats the norm there so I would comply with it.

I just did a cursory search to see what there was to see;

from http://www.vidaamericana.com/english/tipping.html "Tipping in America: How to Tip in the U.S."

And from the definitive source; Tipping.org, http://www.tipping.org/tips/restaurant.html

And from one of host's linked articles;
So to summarize, most Canadians tip at least 15%, and the Canadian standard as referred to in that article is 15%. The established American standard is 15-20%. Higher for fine dining, as Host represents, but for regular dining, 15-20%.

The tipping standard for fine dining is 18.7-20+%, but I think there has been a lack of clarity that the OP was establishing tipping rates for finer dining.

Finally, for the average dining experience, it should be noted that Canadian servers are being paid a higher wage and earning comparable tips. As a result, the idea that tipping based on performance isn't offensive. I'll also reiterate that yahoo.ca and most posters in this thread were in reference to average dining, not fine dining.

Isn't that what this thread is about? Complying with the norm of the society you enter? When in Rome, right? I learned that concept in elementary school.

Everyone's getting all uppity about this subject, but I think almost everybody is pretty much agreeing here. Almost everybody has stated that about 15% is a good tip given for good service. Some go a little higher some go a little lower.

I just don't see where the intensely heated argument is coming from.

You win the thread.

Bang on.

Bossnass, you've made an informative, well articulated post, however, if you are more correct than incorrect, in what you are telling us, what is all of this "noise", including in a prominent newspaper in western, and from sources around the internet?

The information is available in your country, and it is not just me, saying what I've said:

It's almost like I'm psychic
Call me NOW!!! It's Cleo.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...2203639AAsJXBq
Looking through Yahoo Answers, one person mentions Canadians, out of 33 results, one person out of 33, yep that sure is a lot of 'noise'.

From The Stained Apron:
http://www.stainedapron.com/newcourse.htm

Your own major newspaper, the Vancouver Sun, does a recent story containing claims identical to the ones I made in the thread OP. Bossnass decided that the credit card data in <a href="http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_13139.aspx">this article</a> displayed in the OP, actually meant:
when, actually the article he interpreted and the Vancouver Times story, and feedbeck from around the net, say something different, and so do many posters on this thread.

It appears more likely the the Canadian typical maximum tip percentage is 15 percent, and that percentage is at best, 83 percent of an AVERAGE 18 percent tip in the US. It is 79 percent of the AVERAGE tip in the market where I work, and I don't work in an average restaurant.

When you are escorted from the bar to a seat at a table in my section, I can expect to be docked 2 percent of your bar tab from the tip you leave, if you leave 15 percent, because the bar receives a 17 percent tip on your drink tab, regardless of the tip amount you leave. I can expect your maximum tip, if you are satisfied with food and service, to be 79 percent of the average tip in my market, at the average restaurant. The information about your tipping habits, compared to those of US patrons, has been published in your newspapers. Your reaction is to say, "be happy with what I give you, stop whining, I don't give a shit if you don't like it, find a better job".

You enjoy the superior buying power, because of the strength of your currency, yours and the Europeans. Stop taking up seats in our restaurants, and cutting our fucking compensation!

host, this is the internet, you can find a story saying it's alright to fuck sheep if you want to, you can find a story to support any view. You have actual Canadians in this thread telling you what we tip, yet you keep going back to a story in a newspaper, I guess actual Canadian input from actual Canadians doesn't mean as much as written word from a newspaper.

Have you not seen what the Canadian posters in this thread have said we tip? I'll refresh your memory:
And from that list and The Stained Apron, it seems us Canadians are right on track.
It's quite obvious you're going to continue to have this hard on for Canadians and see us as bad tippers, which doesn't bother me in the least, you can think what you want, we're not going to change your opinion here no matter what we post, as I said before, you're the best cut and paste man on the board, you'll just go out and find another 'study' or story to support your argument and go on your merry way.

Your links barely support your assertion, if at all. The article in the OP I referenced, along with the other two sources in the same post, do actually say what I 'interpreted' them to say.

You recommend that Canadians have due diligence in American tipping customs. I believe that my previous post did just that. I wouldn't expect a potential tourist to search for a random newspaper article asserting a higher rate to be the source used.

Yeah, Host, I'm done. It is a stereotype. You have a prejudice that you are trying to justify. I recommend you endeavor to perform your chosen occupation to your normal standards regardless of the accent you may hear. Thank you. Good luck.

From your own story:
78% of Canadians tip the standard 15%, so 22% don't, doesn't really support your hard on for Canadians all that well now does it?
Notice the words personal decision, what you normally get has nothing to do with what you're going to get from me or the next person or the next person.

but only if you tip them when you're done

That actually peripherally raises an interesting question. Is it possible that certain ethnic groups tip less because the servers, who are expecting a poor tip anyway, provide sub-optimal service?

This thread was over after Leto's last post. Everything now is just going to be a host cut-and-paste-a-thon, and more pissing matches back and forth across the border

And it has to be more than 20% or you'll be considered a cheap asshole.

After searching 'The Shitty Tipper Database', it seems there are only complaints about 2 Canadian parties in the whole 'database' http://www.bitterwaitress.com/std/in...&fromfromid=58
That's not too bad at all if you ask me, only 2 complaints.

oh god, Im sorry....thats the funniest thing I've read all day hehehehehhe cheap asshole hehehehehe

oh...I can sleep well tonite

/sorry I couldnt help myself

I couldn't help myself either Shani, this thread needs to chuckle a little more, guess it'll be up to the Canadians (and a few Americans) to handle that part.

Instead of getting all worked up about it, what I want to say is this:

I do tip good service in restaurants. I tip as a show of appreciation for good service. If you spit in my food because I haven't tipped, or haven't tipped you as much as you want, then you are lousy at your job and have no pride in your work. Shame on you.

I still don't see how above-and-beyond service automatically merits a tip (you could mention bonuses but those are paid by your employer and not an external source - important difference), in any job, and a huge one at that (If I got tipped 20% for my job that would be pretty awesome!).
I do a great job regardless of my pay; I don't earn as much as I feel I should for the tasks successfully and well completed, I work overtime for no extra pay, and I go above-and-beyond regularly, because I have pride in my work and enjoy what I do - and I don't expect tip for this, or demand it!

I don't think waiters are lowly and I am always respectful of them as long as they are also respectful of me. Maybe the OP has an issue there.

I particularly dislike the self-righteous attitude of the OP in relation to this topic because I still don't see how it is your right to get tipped.

I should not have to pay for a large percentage of your wages, take that up with your boss (you probably make more by the hour than I do).

The OP says that people who question the notion of tipping are arrogant but I think it is very arrogant to expect tip when I still feel you haven't given me a solid enough reason to have to do so. Maybe it shouldn't be called a tip?

I doubt any waiters/waitresses anywhere outside of the U.S.A. would be so adamant about this topic.

I am not Canadian.

You know, I wonder about this too, actually alot. I think it is a very important point. What about it people? Can any servers and diners (ethnic ones) shed some light on this?

Kinda like a self-fulfilling prophecy... I like the idea, and it might have some merit, but where's your randomly quoted blog/webpost/"research" to back it up?

:thumbsup:

All I remember seeing is $2.xx per hour... WOW! That's slave labor. Now I know why you think foreigners under tip :
in Canada, a tip is a way of thanking the staff for doing good service and is in no way required. It is assumed that the restaurant will pay its waiters properly. I had no idea that in the US restaurants make it the client's responsibility to pay the waiters. I now think that a 30% tip is way too little if the tips are almost the waiters whole wage... and he has to pay for health care too.

ps : I tip 20-30% to show gratitude and not because I have to.

Sounds like changing the subject. Canadians are bad tippers as a rule, the only question I have is why does it get them worked up so much?

Canadians do you feel like its a slight on your nation knowing you are crappy tippers?

Is it a source of national pride that has been wounded?

Does military impotence make one touchy over minor matters?

You should be approaching the acceptance phase. Just say it, perhaps together, holding hands around a Maple leaf while wearing a hockey jersey "We are lousy tippers."

There....now breath in.....let it wash over you......ahhhhhh.

Now think of all the great things Canada has done and weigh it against the fact you tip poorly.....there....is that so bad?

Post #180
silent_jay, these were the posts, in the original thread that were the catalyst for this spinoff:
You can repeat your opinions about how I post, as often as you choose. I've asked you or anyone else to post data showing that Canadians tip an average amount above 15 percent at restaurants. Should we persuaded to believe nasty Americans made all of this up, about Canadian and other foreign visitor tipping attitudes, practices, and percentages?

The "canoe" joke has been circulating for years. Have you ever heard it before, or wondered about it? Stop "shooting" at me. Post one article with a description or data about Canadians leaving positive impressions at restaurants because of their practice of tipping above 15 percent.....

I am not the one who originated or built on the Canadian reputation, your countrymen have accomplished that for you, including some of our fellow TFP members who have posted here.

From <a href="http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showpost.php?p=2390838&postcount=153">post #162</a>:
Canadians and other foreigners seem to be invading the Atlanta metro area, and the "culprits" are:
Canadian dollar vs. US: http://www.x-rates.com/d/USD/CAD/graph120.html
<img src="http://www.x-rates.com/d/USD/CAD/graph120.png">

....and being located next to the busiest airport in the world,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World%2...senger_traffic

in one of the fastest growing US metro areas, tourist markets, and convention markets:
One of your own shot the photo below, and he enjoyed visiting us so much, he's threatening to return:
http://angelodelosangeles.blogspot.c...n-my-mind.html
<h3>I'm going to give you what you wish for...regular updates of tipping percentages on the guest checks of our foreign and domestic patrons. I hope the information I posted above this paints a picture for you of my potential to provide date that will further open some interested eyes, and roll the eyes of some others, stay tuned!</h3>

Who's rule is this and where is it written? It seems 22% of Canadians are bad tippers by hosts own articles, and that 78% tip the normal.

What gets us worked up is when people like yourself and host seem to only believe what you post and what everyone else posts is merely bullshit that you just glance at because ultimately your opinion must be the right because after all it is your opinion.

We have posted data, again, and again, you just seem to ignore it. You have data from people (Canadians) in this very thread saying how much they tip, yet still ignore it, it isn't our fault that you choose to ignore it. Your own articles show that 78% of Canadians tip the norm, yet you still piss and moan,.
Here I'll post our data of real Canadian from this forum again, seems we all tip the norm
As I said before it doesn't matter what we post, you'll just ignore it and go on your merry way, so why should we waste our time? You have real data in the thread, if you'd read our posts maybe you'd see it.

Hence why I referred to it as a peripheral question, or in other words one not directly related to the main topic of discussion. Even still, I think it could have some merit. If you offer anyone a poor standard of service I should imagine they would respond with a poor tip, regardless of nationality. If you're providing Canadian diners with inferior service based on the expectation that you won't be receiving a good tip from them, can you really claim surprise or outrage when your expectations are fulfilled?

First of all, I'm still not convinced Canadians are crappy tippers. The websites posted along with the admittedly unscientific poll in this thread seem to indicate that the average Canadian tip is ~15%. That doesn't seem to be significantly lower than American tips; at least, the reference websites posted by Bossnass above seem to indicate that 15% is an acceptable baseline, with variations of 5% or so based on the quality of the restaurant and the service provided. host's sources appear to correlate that, generally quoting an average rate of 15-18%. Sure, some Canadians are cheap. Some Americans are cheap. Are you seriously going to contend that you've never been stiffed by one of your own countrymen? Or were they all black and/or Chinese immigrants?

Quite aside from that, yes some Canadians will find it offensive that we're all deemed bad tippers in much the same way that you seem to take exception to the suggestion that all Americans tourists are boorish and inconsiderate. Stereotypes are generally frowned upon, whether they're based on nationality, race or religion.

I shouldn't even respond to this. I know I shouldn't, as this is not the proper place for such a discussion. Even still, I feel the need to point out that clearly spending your education budget on the military has done wonders for you.

C'mon, you couldn't work maple syrup, back bacon and beer into that? I'm disappointed.

I have to admit, this one is odd coming from you, as you do seem to hold quite a bit of animosity toward my country.

Rest assured that I don't spend enough time south of the border to deprive any of your hard working waiters of the tips you feel they deserve. This, incidentally, is why I attempted to debate the way the system itself is structured, while largely avoiding the issue of nationality. As nobody else seems interested in doing so, I reckon I'm pretty much done here.

No I love Canada, some of my finest memories growing up and in general are from Canada. I'm willing to bet I know more people from Mutton Bay than anyone on this board.

That doesn't mean they can't be really really silly about things with this new found national pride ;)

I wouldn't take that bet. I had to use mapquest to even find out where Mutton Bay is.

Even still, discovering that you spent a lot of time amongst the Quebecois growing up would seem to explain why you think all Canadians are crazy.

baZING!

Between host thrashing around like a wounded animal, vainly attempting to make sweeping generalizations that are true of the minority, and Ustwo predictably hurling stereotype after stereotype, this thread delivers.

That's the beauty of host's arguments. His aptitude at using the quote feature combines with his stubbornness that is rooted in his occupational bias against certain demographics to create an endurance that typically frustrates more level-headed and rational posters. He simply outlasts or overwhelms whoever he argues with by burying them in quoted articles and the repetition of his own misguided conclusions drawn from data he spins to suit his needs. He wins by default.

The two greatest words in the english language... de...fault....de....fault!

And Ustwo, what can I say, I'm almost beginning to think you're not even a real human, just a tank of manatees that randomly selects stereotypes or generalizations to hurl at people to try to rile them up.