How important is the TFP Politics board?
 

Very simple question. Kind of goes with the other thread I created on what will bring you to (or back) to TFP Politics.

Been awhile since I've done the poll thingy I guess.....

1: It is very important and can bring in new, active and interesting members

2: It has it's place but doesn't affect overall membership

3: Has it's place and I wouldn't mind getting active in it if there seemed to be more true debate and sharing of ideas and views instead of fighting

4: I love to watch the fights but it's not for me and I just wouldn't post there ever and it has no affect on membership

5: Don't care...... I just come for titties and a laugh.... If I want to talk politics I'll go elsewhere.

...and this is a discussion... how? :)

You know, I'm increasingly of the opinion that Tilted Politics makes zero difference in the actual world. There was a time when I thought that my activity there altered something outside TFP itself. Now I'm pretty certain it doesn't.

While this thread is better in it's approach than the other one you've started, I still don't see the relevance of it.

There are millions - if not billions - of political discussion boards already in existence. We run the risk of having an overinflated sense of importance if we feel that ours is somehow distinctive enough to be a draw for new membership. Ours is no different than the others, even though some of us may wish to believe we're more intelligent or high-brow than the others.

Politics is what it is. It's much larger than any of our egos and will continue on in much the same fashion long after we're compost.

I don't think it's of great outer importance, but I do believe that it is or rather was unique in that while there were fights, both sides were able to have their say and get their point across. That is rare and something that TFP could be proud over.

I first came to TFP for the titties but back then you had to make a quota number of quality posts. I looked around and I fell in love with the Politics board here and forgot about the titties quota. It was fun, we fought like Hell but at the end of the day it grew. The board attracted people to post.

Anyone can theorize why it died or is dying, they can say it's cyclical, but if it's not growing and if everything becomes the same argument there the end result will be no one new will post there.

It doesn't, but it gives you the chance to learn other's perspectives to actually have to think out yours when you type it thereby cementing your views deeper or shaking them up..... it is what it is. And it can alter things outside. Your view and passion and debate on a certain issue may help someone, even 1 person take a stand and change their view and their vote. Maybe, maybe not but to say it has absolutely no effect.... I don't know if I could agree with that.

A place is only relevant if you USE it to make real world change. You cant sit around discussing politics ad nauseum and just look at it and go, "Is this important?" Of course not! You need to be the one doing the work, looking at your reference (the board) and then you can ask if its important or not.

That's the problem with all these veterans sitting around and yakking about how the Tilted ______ is dieing. They're just SITTING AROUND. I say put up or shut up about how its going down.

That is what I'm trying to do here with these 2 threads. I wanted people's voices so that maybe perhaps things could be done to allow growth again.

I also just posted the poll no discussion in the OP because I wanted the poll to be as unbiased as I could possibly make it.

And yes, I agree you must take action as well as just speaking out, in any aspect of life not just politics.

I generally find that the politics threads tend to funnel into the regular presumptuous pigeonholing, while real debate is stifled by everyone taking their regular positions, which tend to reflect the sentiments of their favourite talking heads. Sometimes reminds me of CNN Crossfire.

I dunno, maybe it's just me.

None of the options describe my opinion about the Politics board but #3 comes closest:
3: Has it's place and I wouldn't mind getting active in it if there seemed to be more true debate and sharing of ideas and views instead of fighting.

I came to TFP for the political discussion but I rarely venture there these days.
Why?
Because of self-inflated pomposity, that's why.
Because of vanity and hubris that knows no bounds, that's why.
Because of the consistent use of personal attacks, that's why.
Because of the contamination of every thread with ego-inspired hubris, that's why.
Because every thread is eventually polluted with multiple posts consisting of page after page copied from other websites, that's why. (Does anyone actually read that stuff?).
Because some personality types have no interest whatsoever in the actual give and take of friendly discussion, that’s why.
Because fragile egos require a "win" in every encounter, that's why.
Because of a narcissism that cannot bear the idea of being wrong, nor tolerate the existence of minds that have arrived at legitimate but different conclusions.
Because of a pettiness that strikes at every irrelevant comment but refuses to see the “big picture.”
Because of an inability to “let it go.”

You’re so vain; I bet you think this post is about you.

Vanity, vanity, all is vanity, that’s why.

^^ X 2

The discussion shouldn't be about whether the politics board (PB) changes anyone outside of TFP but whether it's useful to the TFP members. You could say the same about any of the forum sections on TFP.

The PB is pretty useless from my point of view because when it comes to politics, most people have made up their mind and won't (don't want to) see a topic any other way. Politics discussion isn't about politics oddly enough. It's about personality types and viewpoints. The difference between right and left and D and R isn't politics, it's simply personality types. So basically the PB is people trying to change other people's personality types. Not happening...so it just turns into fighting back and forth with each member honestly believing that the other members are mentally retarded.

I wouldn't care one way or the other if it was gone. However, I've made my stance on this clear before.

This reminds me of a favorite quote. It's by Albert Camus: "The need to be right is a sign of a vulgar mind."

I think that participation in the politics forum requires a great deal of investment of thought and time. Unfortunately, I don’t have the time to post there. However, I appreciate the amount of time and effort that many of the people in the politics forum put into their posts. I enjoy reading well-thought out arguments that include both evidence and analysis. The investment of thought and time required to post in the forum is one of its strengths. Personalities may occasionally clash and people may occasionally fall back on old arguments, but on the whole, I enjoy reading what people post there.

In 5+ years of casual observation, and meek attempts at participation, I cannot recall one adjusted position, one conceded point. I bailed out with a lasting impression of closed minds fiercely defending their preconceived notions. You can keep it.

That fits my impression of every political thread I've ever read on any message board ever. It eventually becomes a forum where the loudest shouters dominate, and no one's opinions or perspectives are altered in the least.

I've seen a few opinions changed and points conceded, but then I've probably spent a bit more time posting and reading in Politics than many...

That said, I will agree that "ego" (rather than vanity) is what appears to drive much of what is wrong with the Politics Forum today. There is an unwillingness to be respectful, even if you don't agree. There is an undertone of anger and belligerence that just turns people off.

It frustrates me because we have a number of people with some very interesting insights and many of the won't waste their time in the face of much of what occurs in that forum.

pretty much sums up every politics forums section i've seen too.
on the plus side, from what i've read here so far, this site isn't as bad as a lot of others.

Fotzlid is correct. I have participated in several others. :eek:

Maybe the real value of the politics board isn't to discuss politics, but as a quarantine for those who want to.

:lol:

Quite possibly the truest thing said here.

I resemble..... I mean ......ummmm.......I resent that remark.

Explain why you are so negative about the politics thread and post what you think you bring to it, in your posts there, that improves it.

IMO, it is what you make it. It is a place to share "what you know", and how you come to "know" it. "What you know", should be what shapes your politcal opinions.

How can that process influence you to post words like "quarantine"? Why is there so much discussion about discussing political opinions. Post them, justify them, defend challenges to them. If you cannot successfully defend your opinions, concede to the stronger (better supported) opposing argument. Or should something else be happening at the politics forum?

It concerns me when I concede a point and everyone acts surprised. Not one person in TFPolitics is right all the time. That includes YOU. If you're wrong own up to it or go sit in the corner, you big baby. That and stop getting so pissed off at other members. This is about discussion, not rabid debate.

See, I have to disagree with this statement. Politics/religion/spirituality/philosophy etc. are based on theory, one's experiences, what one can see/feel or believe to be wrong or right. Sometimes one just says, "I feel this way....." or "In my opinion and belief I believe this..." They cannot always be put into words or explained because they just are. Or if put into those phrases "I believe this...", "In my opinion...." and one relates why, it never seems to be a "good enough" answer for others.

Let's say someone says they believe X to be true. Now, in the Politics thread, one is attacked right away and asked why, what proof do you have to believe in X.

This puts the person on the defensive right away because 99% of the time the question is asked accusingly and the writer is treated like they know nothing.

So the person posts in a defensive manner why they believe X to be true. Now, if it is because of experience, opinion or "based on just a feeling" they are really attacked. Out comes the articles, the belittling, the attacks on the person.

Instead of constructive conversation to help each other understand the other, the posts become about winning an argument not about sharing ideas. So the end result becomes either the original poster pushes back because no one showed enough respect to talk to the person as an adult and a person but rather put them immediately on the defensive, that person either leaves or becomes more defensive to the point they become aggressive. And then the possibility of any civilized give and take conversation is gone.

Also, if someone posts a bunch of articles from a biased source, for people to read, but does not add anything of their own (maybe a few sentences) then nothing is achieved either. The average poster/reader feels they can find their own sources to read based on their own bias, why comment on something that even the poster really doesn't comment on?

It's like if I post article after article saying that the KINKS were the greatest band ever.... but I never truly add anything substantive from myself, someone will post article after article of why they weren't with no commentary of their own and nothing is achieved. Or they'll get tired of hearing me say it and rebel against it even if they agreed at first (overkill).

My point is there has to be acceptance and respect of the other's basic premise and the desire, ability and care to communicate your views back to them, in order to truly move forward. Anything short of those and all you end with is nothing but anger, personal attacks and negativity towards the whole encounter.

It's not that hard to do:

Poster A: I believe there should be Universal Healthcare.....

Poster B: I understand but I don't see it working because of .......

Then A and B can discuss their opinions with posters C-Z being able to share their points of view and add constructively to the "debate".

I know when I have talked about this in the past, people say we can't change anything so why does it matter?

Well, if TFP is different and "more mature" than other boards, we can achieve a Politics Board that will gain much respect throughout and bring more good posters in for true debate, education and mind expansion.

If it continues the way it is.... few will reside there.

I've always seen the politics forum as a giant circle jerk. Nothing is ever conceded, nothing ever seems to be truly "learned", as no one ever seems to be open to changing or expanding viewpoints.

I know a good number of people say "oh well I change opinions and learn all the time". Yeah, that's not really true. Maybe on tiny shit that never matters, but the big ones never change. I've never seen someone really change their mind on guns, abortion, immigration, their real political leanings, Iraq, Iran, etc., etc., etc.

Sometimes feelings broaden, like someone gets "looser" or "tighter" on gun control laws or immigration, but the real opinions never actually change.

At the very least, discussion is about learning from each other... Tilted Politics never, ever seems to be about more than people trying to prove they're right. That's not discussion. I don't really ever see actual discussion in there. It's mostly posturing, holding the party line, and trying to browbeat others into agreeing with them.

However, I still think our forum is more civil about it all than any other politics forum I've come across. That doesn't mean ours is important, but at least we have a fairly mature group of people (most of the time) who can manage to shove their opinions down others' throats with more civility than people on other sites.

Why are you people talking about why your talk about talking about stuff?

pan, all information is not equal, and your entire premise, IMO, is contradicted by the entire history of discourse of American politics.

Some will regard even these linked pages as "biased".
http://www.google.com/search?q=host+...e=off&filter=0

How does your "formula" fit with debates on issues like WMD in Iraq, abolition of slavery in the U.S., or what is the appropriate way to react to a thread, posted on a politics forum, that is titled:

"Please take a moment to pause, and think of our Military overseas this Christmas" in a politcal environment where an appreciable number believe that most of the military "overseas" are involved in illegal occupations.

There is a reason that some people limit themselves to never discussing religion or politics in public. There is a reason why there is a separate "politics" forum at TFP.

It is a challenge to participate on a political discussion forum on the internet. The forum at TFP is already moderated. You propose to remove the challenge of participating.

Why not propose a new forum restricted to the discussion of political feelings? That way, the implications and consequences of "owning" (attempting to advance) a political opinion, need never be confronted, recognized, or fully considered.

Folks who want to "ban all abortion", need never be exposed to information about the consequences to poorer women of childbearing age, versus the lack of consequences of the ban to wealthy women who have the option of travel out of the jurisdiction of the ban, to obtain safe, skilled, sterile clinical abortion services....they can just "feel" their opinion without exposure to information that might make them have a choice of ignoring what it is that influences others involved in a discussion to THINK otherwise.

...And, they can "feel" their pro abortion ban opinion, on a new and improved TFP politics discussion forum. No thank you, pan.

but if someone simply "believes" something and doesn't want to discuss supporting evidence, then I don't understand the point in any discussion at all, nobody is going to accept outside input about what they believe and then the board is just everyone spouting off an opinion that no one else cares about. I don't think there is nearly that much room for belief in political discussion, that's religion and religion and politics do not mix. if you ask me that's basically the reason we have such shitty politicians (on both sides) in this country these days, is that all they want to talk about is beliefs and feelings (like think of the children!) and nobody's bringing up the FACTS.

But I do agree with you here, that an attitude adjustment will certainly help. The board is flooded with arrogance and general lack of respect for other points of view. I just think it's better than not to leave space for facts and evidence. I'm not sure a new forum is the answer. Maybe people should be more prepared to back themselves up if that is truly a problem they have.

I don't think Tilted Politics makes any real difference, but it is a good way to hash out your particular point of view to see who agrees, and where your opinions fall short.

That being said, it would be far better if there was more debate and less wholesale article spamming.

If I am going to enter into a discussion about, say, social security, I want to hear the opinions of other TFPers rather than having to wade through a dozen articles about someone elses point of view that maybe are sort of related to the discussion.

Likely, the poll is meant to bring about a conversation intent on addressing underlying issues that detract from one of the interesting aspects of TFP. By doing so it is possible some members will become more active, or even adjust posting styles in an attempt to improve or redirect the flow of activity within the politics board.


-OR-

Pan was bored and simply wanted to make a poll.

shit...the politics board is the way it is because most of the users who post there regularly want it that way....otherwise, it would be...different.

if you don't like another poster's style or attitude, i'd say ignore it and move on. if people want to talk about their feelings on an issue, or if they want to avoid substantiated debate, then just ignore the articles and have a micro discussion on that basis. this happens all the time on the boards, and some people will say that it's clique forming, but i don't see any substantial change in posting style coming about as a result...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/10...sp_rofl0ne.gif

Host.
It was joke. You know...funny? Why does everything have to be so serious? All of time? If Ustwo, who is a major contributor to the politics board, can poke a little fun at himself...can't you come up to fence and share in bit of a chuckle?

My opinions are my own. They have been formed through 45 years of walking this planet, and seeing the things that I have seen. My opinions are not formed, nor are they swayed, by reading what some pundit has posted in a blog. I simly do not care. And just because I, or anyone else for that matter, may not find the time to dig up a dozen or so opinions that mirror our own, does not in any way mean that the argument should be conceded. All that means is that you probably have more time to research. Having more time does not necessarily make you right. You may be right. You may be wrong. You may only be expressing your own point of view. But posting a dozen supporting articles does not make you right or wrong.

I would like to suggest something for our politics board...and it is only a suggestion.

In an attempt to bring actual debate to the forum, perhaps we might try a new approach, one designed to set standards and rules for posting within a designated thread.

The standards might include limitations on length of back-up documentation, statement and rebuttal segments, verification of data sources....or whatever. Having seen this type of organized debate quite successful elsewhere, I would be interested in how it might fit into TFPolitics, and the way it would affect interaction between members.

As I stated, it is an Idea...what do you all think?

Maybe say instead of copying whole articles you should post excerpts in the forum and links to the complete articles for the other people (which I'm guessing isn't very many) who want to read them. Like a research paper. Include the relevant quotations as support within your writing and cite them with a reference to the original.

Heaven forbid, I agree with Ustwo (even if he was just kidding).

I'm perfectly capable of researching conservative right wing view points, there is no shortage resources out there. Nor is there a shortage of liberal counterpoints. Linking page after page of talking points isn't a discussion, I can find them just fine on my own.

What's missing is any discussion or compromise.

I sometimes look at new topics to look for something new. I rarely read past the first page before I go off and research it on my own.

From now on, instead of posting any sort of supporting information, i will just post a picture of my clenched fists.

Example:


Socialized medicine can work if properly funded and overseen. If you have any doubts, i would like to direct your attention to exhibit A:
http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/9987/dscf0559jk7.jpg

I agree with your argument, socialized medicine should have a lot of similarity with being anally double fisted, well done!

See we can all get along.

Politics board is a place where people work very hard at insulting others without them noticing.

Yeah, but in a good way.

Exactly.

How would you describe these links, listed in these search results:
http://www.google.com/search?q=host+...e=off&filter=0

....are they liberal links, or conservative links?

How is what you're saying, any different than filtherton's example. We can "discuss" over the phone, or over a cup of coffee. This is a recent format, in a recent media. Over and over, there are arguments against using it for what it does best. It permits detailed presentations.

The "details" raise the bar. You want to lower the bar, even if you do not mean to. "Compromise" is a process. IMO, the size of presentations to support a position, do not affect that process. It is the quality of the presentation. The more detail in a presentation, the more there is to criticize, to obtain examples for a counter argument.

We have "Mcnews"...USA Today, for example. We have "sound bites", broadcast on the local and national, half hour evening news segments.

Here we have the ability to present/share detail. It is searchable, afterwards, via "the google". if it is all DISPLAYED. If you don't use that feature as a resource, in combination with your recoverable posting history here, than it is not something you would need or appreciate.

Please leave the forum alone. If you don't want to someone else's post, don't read it. Stop attempting to eliminate features and resources that have become available via the development of the internet, just because you don't use them and don't value them.

Done,

Enjoy your personal playground / quotefest.


My mistake in thinking we were looking to make the politics board more inclusive.

I'd say most of us are trying to set a more respectful tone on politics. Some of the more extreme partisans or ideologues will continue their pace, much like spammers do with email... the hope that you eventually succumb to sheer volume and buy what they're selling.

Would you consider starting a new thread on the politics forum, complete with a well thought out and persuasive political observation(s) or opinion, or continue like this?

....Let's not get into who is "trying to set a more respecful tone". I am sure none of us have cornered "the respectful tone" market, to the point that we are qualified to critique who is, and who isn't "setting" one.

We "are" our past posts, in this medium, in that they contain the only ingredients from which we gain a sense of each other.

I went with the last choice, but none of them really work properly. This is one of the few fora I've been around whereat I feel a sense of community.

Is it important for bringing people in? Possibly. I came for the titties and stayed for the people.

I read it occasionally, but only if I'm in the mood to get angry or indignant.

This is my announcement that I'm going to be pulling back somewhat from my participation in Tilted Politics. I don't like who I become most of the time when I post there. I'll probably continue to troll, and might post occasionally, but my voice will probably be somewhat more scarce there, at least for a time.

(Yes, I did just post there a couple seconds ago. I said "somewhat". ;) )

You're right Uber...... instead of attacking I'll edit and simply say:

I have an easy cure, I'll just ignore on Politics certain posts and posters that make no sense or are on there just to destroy the thread. I'm always up for good debate but no longer care to fight.

Whether or not politics is an important part of TFP, this isn't really a very enticing advertisement.

I'm surprised nobody's made reference to "The Angry Young Man" by Billy Joel.

well, did YOU start the fire? :)

Personally, I think there should be a rule in Tilted Politics that quotes articles longer than, say, 100 words should require use of the HIDE tag for those quotes, or the post will be deleted. It's just too cumbersome to read when there are 15 different 500-word articles quoted in a post. It's borderline spam.

Does anyone actually read them all in full?! I end up ignoring that post, as I'm sure everyone else does.

If John mcCain is smart enough to be president, shouldn't he have had some curiousity about his new wife's father, James Hensley's background, that Hensley was "mobbed up", and so was his money and the money that McCain has ended up with? When did the money become "clean"?

Below are investigative reporter, Don Bolles' last words, spoken after a car bomb shattered his body in a Phoenix, AZ parking lot in 1976.

<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Bolles#Death">"They finally got me. The Mafia. Emprise. Find John (Harvey Adamson)."</a>


Ooops....sorry, wrong forum......

:devious:

Host, posts like that are precisely why I rarely, if ever, venture into the deep end of the politics board, especially after you've posted in it.

Could you maybe... summarize stuff... or highlight key parts for those of us with learning disabilities or are engineers?

I'll sum it up...I've done the "leg work", and I'm providing you with a chunk of interesting "stuff", if you have an interest in politics, that you probably haven't seen before, and would probably not come across.....

There is more proof about John McCain's problem here, for instance:
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showpos...7&postcount=41

...and as far as I've been able to confirm, it is available nowhere else online. It's about having the curiousity to read, and if you don't have it, how much effort would you really put into a post to respond to it, no matter how much I condensed the information or explained it?

It's harder to post something of substance or rich in content than it is to read a post with a 50,000 character limit.

There already is a general discussion thread, and every "shooting du jour" ends up with it's own thread, there. If you don't want to read what I post, don't read 'em, but don't try to reign me in based on your own tolerance for reading or level of curiousity.

It isn't that I am railing you personally, I just have a problem with reading in general. I do not process written information that I am not acquainted with well at all. If someone were to read this out loud to me, I would probably be able to understand and take something away from it. Just shooting the breeze on TFP is easy since it is a different form of information processing.

If there were bold elements that drew my attention, akin to one changing the tone of one's voice, I am directed to that point as important, and follow each successive point as support.

I have the curiosity to read, and really want to know what the hell goes on the politics board. I just read all those articles... and I honestly couldn't for the life of me tell you what you were going for.

For me at least, the style you post in Host, is a put off. I have never actually made it all the way through one of your posts, primarily because Its not worth the effort to me. If you truly wish to reach people I would highly recommend a summary, followed by hidden links within the body of the post. I actually avoid my scroll button, and go straight to the bar grab and drag due to the length of what you post....its a bit on the overkill side of things.

I recently started a thread in politics (http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=131626). It was my first venture into that area in a while. I wanted to see if it has changed. It hasn't. The personal insults began in the second post. By the seventh post the OP was completely forgotten. Five and one-half hours after the OP, my original question was so buried in the hubris it could only be dredged up by the keenest of posters. The argument was now over the definition of "socialism," and someone even posted a chart showing the political spectrum, none of this even vaguely related to my OP. Vanity, Vanity, All is Vanity!

Let's see, Tilted Politics, you have certain posters who are the cut and paste champions of the internet, tons of articles, lots of times same information, and after the 'Why Canadians Tip Less' thread I don't trust his links at all, he uses 'Yahoo Answers' links and links to other forums and tries to pass them off as fact, I reckon this person should try having an original thought rather than posting 10 articles and making people scroll through for 5 minutes. Then we have another regular poster, the resident politics board troll, if he sees a thread he disagrees with he'll do his best to take it off topic or be as sneaky as he can with his insults.

So yeah politics for me is a place to laugh at peoples posts and laugh at how serious some people take themselves.
No one is trying to reign you in, people are trying to tell you how to get your point across to us better, but hey if you don't want to listen and like having your posts ignored, please continue in the same way.

there's no way to win the "look at the self-serious little people" game, sj, since as soon as you make a move, you're in the same game yourself.
the resulting loop is tedious: predictable in all its variants.

my move would be to laugh at you.
then you could post something laughing at me.

blah blah blah.

make a more interesting game.

Pardon me? I wrote the second post in that thread. I'd love to see how "Vote for the empty-suit Obama. Although I probably shouldn't be answering the question, since I'm not a conservative." could be construed as a personal insult. If you somehow managed to take offense at that, I apologize. I mostly meant it as a joke. I intended it to be somewhat self-effacing in tone.

@ Aladdin Sane:
Your thread was clearly egging on some mudslinging and not a fair debate. You could have easily reworded the OP. Had you left out the name calling and made yourself seem the slightest bit more scrupulous, that thread could most certainly have gone on to accomplish more for what you wanted than it currently has.

Personally: :rolleyes: You should have just titled the thread, "Conservatives Only. No Liberals Allowed!" For the effect I imagine, however, it would have to look like a sign handwritten in crayon, with the R's and S's reversed. I absolutely agree with SecretMethod, his 3rd post.

ratbastid, I meant the second post after the OP. I was not referring to you.

Here we go again. My post was not clearly intended to do anything but get a response from conservatives.
Your response here is indicative of the problem.

very true roahboy, we do need a more interesting game in the politics forum.

The value of the politics board to TFP is evident by the fact that it generates the fourth greatest number of posts (120,000+) among all the boards. I think many of the political posters, including me, would not otherwise be here.

But then again, it doesnt come close to the number one board...the titty board.

I guess most TFPers prefer one set of boobs over another.

RB and I have had this conversation many times. He's right. Politics is stale. The most heated discussions tend to focus around host's stylistic approach. The rest is ... filler?

Hey....I'm not a filler. I'm all beef and answer to a higher authority!

Your post made me think of this image.

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/5...fparodycy6.png

Excellent self parody.

The problem, whether you accept it or not, is that your OP lacked tact. You asked a question in free forum where both sides can read and respond. Yes, I was on the side that was offended by your OP.

However, I have had conversations like this before, only was not pissed off, because the question put forth was asked sensibly, without superfluous opinions.

Replace stylistic approach with manic obsession and I'd agree.

Much like your trolling is manic obsessive?

I always found Ustwo's "trolling" funny. Sometimes unwanted and unnecessary, but otherwise, funny.

If he just had his real opinion in some hide tags, then he would be in business. First, I, and others, can get upset at the one liners, then read all the rest of whatever he has to say sucks about liberals, antifluoridontists... and I got nothing else.

I find it annoying, and the only reason he does it is to get a thread he doesn't agree with, or has no interest in off track, then funny thing is, he complains when other people troll his threads, or his posts.

Maybe if he'd put the sarcasm and trolling in hide tags and leave his opinion in the thread people wouldn't think he's a troll but someone who actually has an opinion other than 'Democrats are Socialists', 'Canada's health care is terrible'.

I don't see why in a political forum a person cannot ask others of his spectrum a question without having people from a differing viewpoint jump on him.

Alladin just asked a question, he even stated it was for Conservatives, he wanted some insight to a problem. Why not show him respect and allow his question to be answered by his peers (those of the same spectrum)? Why must others jump in degrade, jump to conclusions, and turn his OP into something it was never meant to be.

I don't agree with the premise, voting Democrat and "pulling the lever for the person most likely to be defeatable in Nov." but that is his choice. It's a legitimate question and something that happens frequently in politics so it is nothing new. So why not allow Conservatives to answer his question and leave it alone?

If I posed a question for Dems to answer why should I be bombarded with GOP responses and attacks?

Part of a good forum is to allow others their points of view and respecting them, you don't have to agree, but we should at least honor their words. Some of the answers there seemed to have no purpose than to creat animosity and a fight.

Ratbastid answered with a quick self effacing joke, and left it alone afterward.(Edit: Rat's response was pretty respectable and funny).. Others chose to really instigate a fight. Why? Because you didn't like his question so you had to blow it out of the water with attacks and ways to change the OP's subject? That's just ego there and taking away a legitimate question and a man's right to openly express himself.

Ahhh but there's the rub, some will argue that he shouldn't have posted in a public forum. Why? this is supposedly a community of friends and family, why should he not be able to ask his question unprovoked or harassed?

Some would argue that he was allowed to express himself but he did it publicly so they can express themselves by attacking, changing the subject etc. Again, I ask why? And I also would argue that you are not truly allowing the man to express himself freely by attacking his legitimate question. All you show is that if a person expresses an opinion, question or statement, contrary to your beliefs you will attack them, change the topic or belittle the expression.

But why? Are you so insecure in your beliefs that you have to attack others beliefs?

I didn't know having political viewpoints, asking questions and trying to learn how others see things was a game. I thought the politics forum was there so that people could express political views freely and have debate, discussion and maybe learn/teach from each other. So that is where I was all fucked up..... it's a game, thus nothing there is to be serious and noone is to truly share, discuss,,debate or learn from each other. We are to go in and act like 3 year olds demanding attention to ourselves and only ourselves.

It's a fucking game you say? Well, why don't you go to Yahoo or Pogo and play your games and let's see what happens when adults, with ideas, questions and wanting to learn and express their political ideas are free to, without you playing "your little game". Maybe the Politics board may see an increase in intelligent posts, new ideas and threads and not just the same people saying "look at me, look who I can attack in new and differing ways".

In the end political and speech freedoms are not just the freedom to say them but knowing you are not going to be attacked into silence by 3 year olds playing "games".

Edited: reason..... upon reading I added the ( ) to follow Ratbastid, it gets across what I am trying to say in that paragraph better.

See I didn't know that. Once I step my good foot forward into the politics sandbox, maybe I'll learn that for myself.

...

Or find the heroine needle lying in the sand.

I wouldn't step into that sandbox if I were you, it's a good place to lurk, but posting is another story.

The problem, Augi, whether you accept it or not, is that your post lacked tact. You responded to a question in a post that was for conservatives. Yes, I was on the side that was offended by your response.

However, Augi, I have had conversations like this before, only was not pissed off, because the question was answered by those invited, without superfluous opinions.

And since I, Aladdin Sane, am the arbiter of sensibility, morality, and good taste, I declare you to be empty-handed. My judgment is final.

Why not put at the top of the first post FOR CONSERVATIVES ONLY, you were never specific in who could respond to the OP, only the title said it was a question for conservatives, nothing about non conservatives being allowed to post.

Sometimes some people ask a question the wrong way, but his opinion and the OP are just that, his opinion and question. So why not just let Conservatives answer like he wants, ignore the OP if it doesn't pertain to you and the thread will eventually die because the question got answered, opinions between parties shared and nothing more to say.

But by attacking it you draw attention to it and then it becomes a mess of disrespect, immaturity and shows those who may themselves want to attempt to ask questions what happens if others find their opinions or writing style less than or superfluous or just not worthy for whatever reason.

Allow people the right to express themselves without trying to intimidate them from doing so or running them out of the Politics Board.

This is exactly my point! Thank you for saying what I can only sputter.

if you think that the game is stale, then make another one.
no-one is going to do it for you.
why wait around for some Authority to put something into motion?

there is no Authority.

we are collectively responsible for what we make.
if the game sucks, it's because we created a game that sucks.
it the game didn't suck at one point or another but now it does, much of the explanation for that lay in laziness--complacency--the willingness to accept the same old lame old instead of thinking.

politics is understood as a form of entertainment and entertainment should require of you no effort. the reduction of everything to one-dimensional entertainment is the dominant american way.

you reap what you sow.

=====
o yeah--

ustwo, darling:

if you don't like the way the forum works, then change it.
how about you start and end your efforts by working on your own lame-ass posts?
if you think for a second that you are not a HUGE part of what sucks about politics, then you are delusional.




like the lads from whitehouse said:
get yourself together chum.

@ pan6467:
The simple fact that there is so much mudslinging in T. Politics, I can't read through it fast enough to keep track of what is fact, lies, opinion, or otherwise.

His OP read exactly to me and others, "What will be the best way to fool democracy come November?"


Are we not allowed to show our outrage? I thought that was one of our rights and duties in a republic/democracy.


Ego... yeah I agree with that. Still, he doesn't have to respond to the answers he doesn't like.[/quote]I responded to his OP, in a manner more sarcastic that I needed to, which I will apologize for after completing this post. But, my opinions of that thread still exist.


So far, the only parts of this forum that are off limits to other members would be ... the Ladies Lounge.


Yes. I find something that makes me or I think is wrong, I stand up. If I am wrong, I apologize.

I had to reread who this was about.... I thought you were talking about Host or well, actually it could apply to numerous people in that forum.

I have started a total of one thread in the Politics forum. I have idiosyncratic political views, and I read voraciously because I generally try to challenge my preconceptions and see where I might have failed to consider something. So I posted an OP that asked why economic inequality is such a cause celebre for so many people, even though in this country poor people generally have enough food, have shelter and clothing. This is something I have been trying to understand for a while, because I can't believe good intelligent people would find other people's success or good fortune reprehensible. I also don't understand why economic inequality is somehow different from other inequalities, some of which can severely affect people's life happiness more than money.

I'm still trying to get answers. But what really threw me was when I got lectured for being immoral even for asking the question, as if it was self-evidently obvious that no one should ever have more than anyone else, irrespective of effort, inspiration, insight or talent - and I got bludgeoned with long irrelevant quotes about why economic disparities are immoral and rich people are evil. To me that was off-topic and I said so.

I welcome the input and discussion on the question I posed, precisely because I am interested in seeing if there is something I'm missing in my thinking on this issue. Because I wrote the OP, I felt some responsibility to keep the discussion on topic and to prevent it from veering off into other less useful directions. Maybe each OP author can take charge of his or her thread? Some will care about policing the thread and others won't, but we're all adults and should be left to conduct ourselves as adults.

You don't like what I say but that doesn't make it a troll, but please carry on saying nothing important.

Yes it could apply to numerous people in that forum, in that post I was referring to a specific poster.

Oh it's a troll alright, it adds nothing to the thread and only tries to bring it off track, say it isn't a troll all you want, myself and many others know otherwise. But please, carry on thinking what you say is important.

Again, you have hit the nail on the head. There is a new morality, Political Correctness, that does not simply say "you are wrong," but insists that "you are immoral" if you disagree. Irony of ironies, it most often infects the very people who fancy themselves "open-minded."

loquitor:

i am not sure that i always see the distinction between maintaining threads "on topic" and ducking questions about the logic behind the topic itself.
there is a difference between drift in a topic and questions that are raised about the coherence of a topic.
it seems to me that if you put up a thread--particularly one like the inequality thread, which is more a philosophical question than the usual issue-whaddya think of them apples kinda thread, then you have to be open to questions about the position that the op starts from.

if you aren't, it appears that you aren't really interested in having the discussion that you say you want.

but hey, who knows: maybe my writing isn't clear in this format sometimes.
messageboards are constrained spaces--little boxes, little thoughts--not everything fits easily.
in fact, most stuff that is actually interesting to me doesn't fit easily.

Aside from, "Deep down, I believe in the shit sandwiches I am handed from him," where did I go wrong?


If I can be escorted out of presentations and rallies I object to then I can be warned and banned from TFP. But damnit, Aladdin Sane, why not just support the candidate you like? If not the candidate, the party?

A tangent isn't a troll and it does add to this thread.

hosts manic obsession with Bush and all things republican has made the politics board a steaming pile of shit in many ways.

He can't even leave this thread alone in his personal agenda. He doesn't care hes just hoping to sway another person.

So really, I'm sorry you don't agree with my opinions but I think yours suck too, only I don't call them trolling. Have a nice day.

Well like Tecoyah and I have said: gotta summarize it for us slow-readin' folks.

Your manic obsession with calling Democrats all socialists, or anytime someone mentions Canada going on your usual Universal Healthcare rant or calling Canadians socialists or just useless comments has made the politics board a steaming pile of shit in many ways. You can try to blame it on everyone else and take no responsibility for it, but trust me you've contributed to the pile of shit it has become as well.

This was a very well written post and I thank you for your insights.

Alladin did qualify his OP in the title by stating " A Question for Conservatives". That should be a cue that there maybe something that Dems should just shake heads over, and walk away from.

To express outrage is important in any freedom driven society, to instigate, ridicule, and degrade is another. I can post "I read this OP and I feel you are taking advantage of the process and perhaps that is why we get people in office that aren't qualified or even horrendous. Why would you do such a thing." And from there a new discussion maybe made.

It takes a big man to apologize and admit mistakes and ego..... I thoroughly respect your post here, the way you expressed your ideas and thoughts ad have a deep regard for you Augi.

Thank you, Augi, for a truly mature and inspiring post!!!!!!!!!!!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Roachboy, your response was on-topic, and I tried to engage you on it. I was very socratic early in the thread, and that was apparently misread, so I moved over to a blunter mode later. But I was not interested in political sparring in the thread. What I wanted was an explanation of the premise behind the idea that there is something wrong with some degree of economic inequality. I'm still waiting. I'm a big believer in opportunity and achievement, and I think everyone should have both. I just don't see how you can have them without also accepting some degree of economic inequality. I also don't see why economic inequality is different from any other kind: each person has different endowments, and no one is equal to everyone else in their endowments and abilities. So why should inequality in the ability to make money be treated differently from inequality in other areas?

You're right, this is a more philosophical discussion than the usual partisan crap that is in the politics board. And I specifically wanted to stay away from the partisan crap.

There are those here that say change the board.... but when you see new posters getting attacked, ridiculed and chased off.... how are yu going to do that?

"Have to have thick skin and be able to take the attacks.... it's Politics dammit." S because it's politics we have to have approved points of view and not e allowed to try to have sensible dialogs and debates?

There is a reason party moderates like McCain and Obama are winning and it is because America is tired of the partisanship, the self righteous attitudes and the "not getting anything done because of the other party" excuses.

There is a reason that people like Host and UsTwo are being called trolls... because their constant attacks, smokescreen tactics and know it all attitudes are no longer appealing to the people.

I think 20 some years (more so the last 16) of the partisan bullshit is long enough. It's time for dialog, time to right that which has been wronged and to rebuild a nation. It's time we came together, worked together and rebuilt this nation to a better glory and respectability.

We wonder why we are hated around the world.... maybe it's because we are a nation full of hate mongers and partisan idiots that keep tearing us down and destroying all that is good, while they blame the other guy.

Our leaders set the tone of our people. The greats knew this and while not perfect and while they may have had differences in the how to's.... things got done. Reagan got things done and did rebuild the nation from a 70's problem... the problem was we didn't have leadership to take the reigns and keep moving us forward. I'm not a big Reaganite but something worked during those years. FDR wasn't exactly the most liked during his day but he accomplished a lot of great things because he was a leader... JFK, Truman, Teddy Roosevelt and so on.

Great leaders inspire and bring a country together not tear it apart, we have been getting leaders tearing us apart and it shows in our daily lives. Gingrich, Bush, Pelosi, and so on (those are just the names coming to mind right now, I'm sure I can have as many Dems and Rep. up there).... they led by tearing things down and leaving destruction in their paths.

We have a chance now to embrace a positive, optimistic change. We will see a moderate that opens his mind to opposing viewpoints in office next year. The nation will follow, the world will follow. Our elected officials in Washington set our nations tone... it's time we embrace working together to rebuild and stop the destruction.

You hit the nail on the head.
They come off as if they believe what they're typing is gospel and anyone questioning their wisdom is an idiot, and deserves to be reprimanded.

Change is hard to embrace when hate, anger and self righteousness are easier for you because they are your comfort zone, identity and all you know or care to know. Others are so miserable in life that their only goal is to make others miserable and hate filled.

It's just time. Change is coming, most are happily seeing it, accepting it and welcoming it as it comes.

Change to what?