Baraka_Guru

First off, they should screen everyone. It's airport security. I don't want anyone bringing on anything they shouldn't be.

Second, I don't think alienating the Muslim community through humiliating and unethical "special treatment" is a good idea at this time. I think everyone wants Muslims to feel like they're helping, not that they're being all but accused of being terrorists.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

biznatch

Please, by any means, give me REAL security. Really make me feel safe in an airplane. Tons of us do wonder if it could happen again. But I do not feel safer when someone who just happens to be more dark skinned than me and comes from a different place goes receives unequal, different treatment. I just feel nauseous.
Now, what would make us feel safer? This might belong to another thread, but just for the sake of discussion:
Better detectors, for one. I've read countless stories of people forgetting their knife/lighter in their pocket and going through security without being stopped.
Also, I wouldn't mind having my ID checked as I board the plane. Once you're through security, you basically don't need an ID. Just your boarding pass. That's not reassuring
Air marshals would be great, too. They certainly could prevent a few guys armed with boxcutters.
The terrorists might not use planes next time. If they do, though, it'd be good to have smarter security policies, and way more effective than racial profiling.

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abaya

Yeah, agreed. Wtf is going on with this thread...

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

highthief

And now some people close to this young girl are saying the hijab had nothing to do with it, that other women in the same family were not wearing the hijab.

Maybe the death of this young girl has sweet f-all to do with being Muslim and everything to do with being part of a disfunctional, stressed out family - as unfortunately happens often enough in "Christian" families.

http://www.canada.com/topics/news/na...b-44ea5a8a7c36

Sorry, I cannot seem to cut and paste the relevant portion of the articles. My browser, I think, not a TFP related problem.

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Si vis pacem parabellum.

Leto

here here. This has all the hallmarks of a long simmering conflict between teenaged daughter who was interested in hanging with her peers, and traditional, old-world minded father whose temper was definitely not held in check. Add on to that the issues that can cause flare ups such as stress of odl/new world culture and you have a situations where tragedy can happen.

Outside the family, the media can put a simplistic spin on the events, such as hijab/integration etc, but i suspect that it was much deeper than this.

Ustwo

If only it were that simple, but take a look at the honor killings even back in their own culture and country that go on to this day.

This is not an isolated incident.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

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highthief

http://www.law-lib.utoronto.ca/Diana/fulltext/wile.htm

For example, in many countries, domestic violence has only recently been recognized as a crime. In other countries, it is considered to be outside the state's jurisdiction ... Mertus further documents that "in Brazil, until 1991 wife killings were considered to be noncriminal "honor killings'; in just one year, nearly eight hundred husbands killed their wives. Similarly, in Colombia, until 1980, a husband legally could kill his wife for committing adultery."

Best to do up a 4 page post and innumerable media articles on all those Christian South Americans too.

Seriously, whether this case is an honour killing or not that is directly related to Islam (which is unlikely, as this sort of thing is rare in places like Malaysia), directly related to local custom (possible) or just a case of a fucked up family and father (perhaps the most likely scenario), it is interesting to note how such practices occur today in some Latin American countries, in African nations (both Christian and Muslim). It wasn't that long ago (and I mean within my lifetime) that such things occured in Italy and Greece, too.

The point being that family violence is an issue a lot larger than one of "well, it's a Muslim problem".

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Si vis pacem parabellum.

Baraka_Guru

Some good points. What we see here is a particular brand of violence against women. At the risk of sounding repetitive, this is a cultural problem based on corrupt Islamic dogma.

It's true this isn't an isolated incident. This is not a reason to apply a disproportionate amount of indiscriminate pressure on the Muslim community as a whole.

A friend of mine was severely abused verbally and emotionally (and sometimes physically, I think) by her old-world Italian mother. She constantly degraded her, making her feel like a sexual deviant despite being chaste out of fear. There was little logic to her words; they were based on ignorance and a measure of hate. A very devout Christian woman. This wasn't a Christian thing per se, it was an old-Sicilian-Christian-now-living-in-Canada thing.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Ustwo

I could go all host like on these with examples, yes such crimes are done in other cultures, but now its Muslims bringing it to our shores and that obviously can't be tolerated in the least. Liberals tell me its ok they do this in their own countries we have no right to interfere but if they want to bring this crap culture here then we need to start doing 'something' about it. I don't want the US to have Muslim youths rioting like they are in France, with a government afraid to act.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Baraka_Guru

Which liberals are you talking about? Your liberal friends?

I hope the US has learned from the Black riots that have already happened. It would be a shame if the Muslim American community falls into the same class of racism. But this is a different story. This isn't about violence against women within the context of cultural shortcomings as contrasted to progressive societies. What you are talking about is systemic racism within the context of multiculturalism.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Fast Forward

I lived in Rhodesia during the revolution period. It was this time the bomb killed losts of people at the Wooly's in Salisbury. It was a real mess. After that the Army conducted spot checks. They were very effective and they gathered everyone around a whole city block - black and white - and looked in their bags. I didn't mind having my bags checked and it was nice to feel safe again. The shops however controlled only black africans entering. But do I blame them? Did I feel any less safe? Nope. In desperation the "terrorsts" place a few bombs in letter boxes (only once) that turned the contents into shreds, but no one was hurt.

If you're blind I don't think you would be offended if someone noticed that you cannot see. In dangerous situations those involved know the score. I think that if I were an American Arab (concerned about the lives of my family) I'd like to know that the U.S. government is doing something to protect me. Controlling Arabs more than anyone else would probably comfort me rather than offend me. That's the way it should be too.

analog

How in the hell did this thread go from a guy killing his teen daughter to racial profiling at the airport?

highthief

The word "Muslim" came up.

It's like Pavlov's Dog.

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Si vis pacem parabellum.

Fast Forward

Literate people call it "discussion".

analog

People who aren't being smart-asses call it derailing a thread, going off-topic, and threadjacking.

And I'll thank you to spare us your opinions on our literacy.

Fast Forward

Whew! Talk about "jumping to conclusions", "chip on the shoulder" and inferior complexes. Who's "us" and "our" anyway? Did I forget to mention paranoia too?

analog

I'd appreciate it if you'd quit yammering nonsense and let this thread get back on track. Thanks.

Ustwo

Post #57 was the first but post #70 got me rolling for #71.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Fast Forward

... and you truely believe that this comment of yours is the best way to accomplish that, do you?

I'll folllow your lead back, how's that?

You're welcome.

Again with the level-headed logic, Ustwo. You're a real killjoy.

Bill O'Rights

Now I know why my wife gets so aggravated with me for being over literal. But, still, it appeals to my bizzare sense of humor.

Fast Forward.
Let's put the attitude away, what say? I think that you've pretty much expended your allotment of "snarkiness", and are now beginning to operate on a deficit. 'Nuff said?

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"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

Ustwo

I'm glad someone appreciated the effort

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Fast Forward

I see. So your comment on "snarkiness" and "deficit operation" is what you consider "attitude put away", eh? I find your attitude (now) something in the realm of "attitude given another spin of the wheel".

If perpetual motion had been given its' full reign "the attitude" would have been put to sleep by now, but you think your comment is some kind of lofty contribution to diplomatic peace? Jesus wept.

Here's some advice: Go back to sleep and "the attitude" will join you. Now .... "nuff said". Unless you'd like to enter the arena one more time?

abaya

What, exactly, is your problem?

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

analog

Funniest thing I've seen in a while, thank you for the giggle.

dlish

wow.. i go and come back and theres a thread i thought looked interesting..

would have loved to contribute.. and as a liberal muslim, would have loved to contribute to the discussion as i think i would have had much to add to the discussion.

unfortunately the way this thread has gone, it irks be to think that i'd rather not contribute as i personally think that it really think that any additions i made wouldnt be constructive given the downward spiral this thread has taken.

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
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The_Jazz

I am SOOOOO emailing you the next time that one of these pops up.....

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Bill O'Rights

I think the "downward spiral" has been arrested. Please. Feel free to add your thoughts. It can only help to provide a little "altitude" to the thread. Plus, I have a feeling that you'd have quite a bit to impart.

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

abaya

Heh, I knew you were a liberal Muslim, but I thought you were staying out of the thread on purpose, earlier. I wasn't blaming you for staying out of it, and I don't blame you for staying out of it, now. But I, for one, would still respect what you have to say on the issue.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

james t kirk

I read ahead in the posts till I read Xephries, but, I'm coming back to this post.

I agree with Ustwo.

The murder of this girl is an example of how some cultures in this world are indeed fucked up. Sorry to be politically incorrect, but cutting off women's clitorises, and honour killings for not wearing the appropriate garb is just plain crazy.

Why anyone would want to import any such culture to North America is beyond me.

I'm all for multiculturalism when it comes to food, or restaurants. After that, I'll take my western civilization complete with the separation of church and state and equal rights for all thank you very much.

Xephries, fascinating post by the way.

Some do, but they end up with a dagger sticking out of their chest.

Or living in fear like Irshad Manji who wrote "The trouble with Islam."

http://www.irshadmanji.com/

This week in Toronto a 16-year-old Muslim girl was murdered, allegedly by her own father.

Aqsa Parvez told friends and adults at her public high school that she feared what her father would do if she stuck by her decision to reject the hijab — the Islamic headscarf. She also said it’s better to live in a shelter than at home.

Nobody listened. Now she’s dead.

Moderate Muslims have warned that we shouldn’t leap to conclusions. Who knows what other dynamics infected her family, spout hijab-hooded mouthpieces on Canadian TV. Not once have I heard these upstanding Muslims say that whatever the “family dynamics,” killing is not a solution. Ever. How’s that for basic morality?

Of course, mainstream Muslims will argue that I’m the one who needs to learn basic morality. After all, they’ll say, the Qur’an obligates pious women to wear the hijab.

Not quite. The Qur’an asks women and men to dress modestly. That could mean wearing long sleeves. The hijab itself comes from tribal culture that pre-dates Islam. And culture, far from being God-given, is man-made.

You need venture no further than Muslim Girl magazine to witness how mainstream Muslims reinforce the lie that the hijab is mandatory. This supposedly hip (and certainly glossy) publication routinely features covered girls as their cover girls. So much for representing the full diversity of the Muslim sisterhood.

Even “progressive” non-Muslims fall into this trap. Study the photo above. It’s a post-card flogged by the Interfaith Center of New York. Can you detect even one Muslim woman who’s not covered?

I see the veiled chick at the far end. It gets less conservative from there — but not to the point of depicting a Muslim woman who prays without submitting herself to a scarf.

Worse, the blurb on the back celebrates the “diversity of Muslim communities in the city.” Show me where.

Of course, the diversity exists in spades. So does the tension between Muslim parents and their daughters. In Berlin earlier this year, a group of young Muslim women — not a hijabi among them! — approached me to express gratitude that I’d posted an Islamic defense of inter-faith marriage.

Because this document is written by an imam, they can use it to legitimately challenge parents and clerics who want to force girls into loveless marriages with other Muslims. These young women told me that the Islamic inter-faith marriage defense is being downloaded by their friends. It’s also being used by German social services to counsel distraught Muslim girls.

For all of my readers who feel powerless to help another Aqsa Parvez, I have simple advice: Listen to her. Then come to this website for resources in various languages. Be not afraid of anything except complacency.

Meanwhile, may Aqsa rest in peace. Finally.