Willravel

I'm assuming you mean the boxer formerly known as Cassius Clay, who hasn't been famous for decades. Muhammad Ali was fortunate that he was not famous after 9/11. He was fortunate that, while he did face bigotry, he did not face an entire political party in power.
That's the pot calling the clean, crisp white shirt black, and I'll thank you to actually back up your claims with a shred of evidence if you're going to try and act superior. Iran IS liberalizing, though at a slower rate in 2007 than 2001 precisely because of the US government's continuing threats. They are still liberalizing, though. To think otherwise is to demonstrate a true disconnect from current Middle East affairs.

Infinite_Loser

Ignorant? No. Impoverished? You would be too if some foreign country was constantly invading the United States and overthrowing the Federal government in order to get to it's uranium stocks. As it stands, the only reason you're not impoverished is because you happen to live in a country which commonly extorts/bullies other, weaker countries.

Anywho...

You own the U.S.?

__________________
I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

Willravel

Whoa. Whoa.

IL, did you have a liberal epiphany?

abaya

Yeah, no kidding... I'm giving the screen a big fat at the moment.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Ustwo

You do realize that by having IL agree with you, what that makes your point?

You mean like those liberal kids after Tiananmen Square?

Wow, I missed a big one when I missed this gem. You really think this eh? After all those Muslims were killed in the US after 9/11 I mean how could you be wrong here?

Christ will (pun intended) get a grip.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

World's King

Bitch shouldn't have been dressed like a hussy.


You know... Normal.

__________________
heavy is the head that wears the crown

analog

People are getting very hung up on his motivation to kill his daughter. He killed her. It's murder, end of story. Reaching out for his daughter's throat, to choke the life from her, has nothing to do with his integration. He didn't want to integrate, he wanted to keep his religion, and wanted his daughter to do the same.

He would have to be very well integrated to be swayed from a religious belief which gave him motivation to justify murder. We're not talking about a beating- it's a belief so strong and ingrained that murder is an actual solution to a problem, according to his view of his beliefs. Good luck integrating THAT out of him.

Thinking his integration had anything to do with it is, in my opinion, just silly. Second-generation immigrants are the ones who integrate because they are brought up on the values and beliefs of the first generation, but actually have the luxury to think for themselves, and in an environment that might allow it. Well, this girl's environment wasn't quite ready for that yet.

I don't have a problem with any faith system or religion- but any personal belief that gives a person justification for murder is fucked up wrong, plain and simple.

snowy

You pretty much summed up my feeling about the situation, analog.

__________________
If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

jorgelito

But Baraka, do you really think we (the US) is/will stagnate? We are at our most diverse and will only continue to do so. It's what makes us great!! To me, the US greatest strength is its diversity. I don't see us stagnating at all. Our culture is always evolving and changing. We are one of the most dynamic cultures ever. Canada is also very diverse, except for maybe Quebec (there's your legacy of hate). Canada is rated very highly in standard of living and quality of life because in my opinion, it embraces diversity.

Indonesia DOES indeed have a lot of ethnic strife and is a nation of strife including ethnic cleansing of minorities (Chinese, Timorese) and intolerance of other religions. They also have extremists and terrorists as well. I wouldn't blame it on Islam though as these problems stem back a ways. But Islam does play a part.

Why? How would they know what a Muslim looks like? Muslims aren't a race, they are a religion and very diverse, like Judeaism. I think poor Hindus and Sihks get more grief at airports than Muslims.

Shaquille O'Neal is Muslim, Hedo Turkoglu, Tony Shaloub (of Monk fame), Paula Abdul, Shakira, Hakeen Alajawon, are all Muslim and they look nothing alike. Most of my Muslim friend dress in jeans and sneakers, wear make up have ipods etc. But some of their more extremist friends do wear the hijab, chador and keep themselves and are unfriendly.

Will, this is interesting. We should totally open up another thread for this. You know the largest (or maybe second largest) group of bloggers is Iranians. I would say it's moderate educated Iranians that will have a chance at running Iran someday. We missed a great chance during the Clinton years when Khatami was in power. Clinton definitley messed that up, then paved the way for George Bush to totally mess it up.

Why? Why is it so surprising that people have a diversity of thought and opinion?

roachboy

it doesn't matter, the question i posted.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Baraka_Guru

I certainly hope you won't stagnate. I think there are many who still hold onto the old idea of the melting pot. America hasn't been a melting pot for decades now. Actually, it was never a very good one to begin with. Even the Romans didn't even do it...much.

Quebec certainly is an interesting place. The bad that comes out of there is a direct result of constantly feeling threatened. In this way, French Canadian culture is kind of like some Muslim cultures. Hegemony is a bitch.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Willravel

9/11
1) Name on the passport or ID
2) Ghutra
3) Thobe
4) Taqiyah
5) Arab or Persian descent
I couldn't agree more.
To be fair, not all Muslims are in trouble at the airport, and Shaq is only in trouble because he probably needs the overhead bin removed. What I mean to say, though, is that if you show up in a burka or a thobe, you're far more likely to be checked. You may already be on a no fly list.
Don't you love reading informed posts? I just love it. You nailed this on the head. What I meant to say is that the Iranian equivalent to generation y is starting to enter the workforce and really becoming a part of society, and I know that this generation as a whole is more liberal than the last. Even the young moderates are more liberal than the older moderates, I'd guess.

casual user

the muslim religion is a very strict and, in my opinion, an over-controlling one. i mean, many followers themselves claim that islam is not a religion, it's a way of life and i can only agree. it pretty much dictates how you should live your life. now, that's all fine and dandy if you should choose to adhere by its traditions, but forcing your kids to do what you want is ridiculous. that goes with anything, not just religion.

Baraka_Guru

It is important to note the difference between the Muslim faith and certain Muslim cultures. There is little about dress in the Qur'an. It basically outlines what is modest in dress for both men and women. What you see and hear about head coverings, beatings, and murders is the product of dominant male culture, not Muslim moral reason.

It used to be a Christian practice to self-flagellate in response to committing sins. But Christianity had the benefit of a reformation. Christian culture changed, though most of the core texts and teachings remain virtually the same.

Culture.
Religion.

Let's keep these straight.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

casual user

i'll admit, i know very little of the muslim faith. i have heard that it was a way of life and not a religion directly from someone who was muslim, however. this might have been due to their particular culture, i'm not sure

one of my best friends is muslim. he's of european descent and much more lax than other practioners of islam i've come into contact with. i make fun of him for drinking alcohol, but refusing to eat pork

skada

Underground kids drinking proves nothing. Even Afgans in mid 70s consumed alcohol (privately) and I don't see them liberated anyhow.

The condition of Iran is quite different they are quite modernized already. like fourth largest bloggers, extremely high women literacy (Women today compose more than half of the incoming classes for universities, are in army , in sports and have Womens' Movement) and it's classisfied as Semi-Developed Nation by UN. And even after this we see fundamentalism.

__________________
No Signature

jorgelito

Will, I got one better: Or if you show up to an airport in a hijab listening to Cat Stevens and your name is Ted Kennedy - No Fly List!

I think the fundamentalism is in the power structure and of course in the populace too. But it's not quite so black and white. There is definitely a large (my interpretation) underground movement like the already mentioned bloggers, students, intellectuals, exiles - in other words, Iran is not doomed to be an extremist theocracy. I believe, there is a good chance it may turn assuming certain factors fall in place (kind of a long shot I know) but it exists. From my studies and readings, there is a good amount of people who do not support the regime, don't hate the US, and even believe the gov't is building nuclear weapons. I believe there was a recent student protest (can't recall details) too in Iran. This is why I was a bit disappointed that Clinton blew the chance to engage when they did have a moderate president.

Your Afhgan reference is interesting. I think I saw something about the Taleban drinking alcohol, listening to Britney Spears, sell drugs and all sort of behavior banned by the Taleban as being unIslamic. Talk about irony. Supposedly the current regime is liberated and has allowed women to go back to schools etc.

xepherys

You mean like Keith Ellison? Or is a Congressman not important enough?


First, Merriam-Webster defines ignorance as "lack of knowledge, education, or awareness". If you believe that the Afghan people are not ignorant, than you yourself are. Even post-secondary educated people, having gone to university in Kabul, have elementary-school level understanding of mathematics, geography, history, science... pretty much every subject. That's people who actually go ON to many universities in this country. Those that only go to primary school (most common) or no school at all (still more common than university grads) have less knowledge. The CIA World Factbook - Afghanistan gives the literacy rate as follows:

A solid 28.1%, eh? Nope, no ignorance there.

As for the impoverished part, except for a brief period in from roughly 1950-196x Afghanistan has always been impoverished. Back in the days of the Silk Road it was a lovely stop between two large and cumbersome deserts. Even with large caravans summering here, there was never a great deal of wealth. There are few precious resources here. They barely grow enough food for themselves and their livestock (even with relatively advanced manual farming techniques). Water supply is seriously limited in most of the country. Pretty much, it's a shithole. Oh wait, I'm sorry, they DO have one major export... opium. Awesome! The CIA World Factbook lists their exports as "opium, fruits and nuts, handwoven carpets, wool, cotton, hides and pelts, precious and semi-precious gems". Yeah, lot's of ways they can make money there (aside from the opium). No, they're impoverished because they don't have much to work with and they don't push to modernize.

Yes she does. So do I. So do you. That's the beauty of a Democratic Republic or Representative Democracy. In fact, you own a reciprocal portion to the total number of legitimate citizens of the US. We all do. Ain't ownership grand?

__________________
The prospect of achieving a peace agreement with the extremist group of MILF is almost impossible...
-- Emmanuel Pinol, Governor of Cotobato

My Homepage

mixedmedia

I think we all need to keep in mind that what we want is to live peacefully on this planet with others. Not tell others how they may live their lives around us according to our own principles. Granted, if you are in this country, you must live by our laws. But we cannot tell a country like Iran or Afghanistan that they must give up their religion and their culture.

Also, it is important to note that in regards to Sharia Law, it does not always equate with Taliban-style rule. There are Islamic scholars who believe that Sharia can be reformed to correlate with modern life.

What we need to do is encourage reform. It's the only thing we can do. And sitting over here talking about how backward and fucked up 'they' are doesn't help. Nothing is isolated on this planet. Everything that happens is the direct result of other actions. Take Afghanistan, for instance. Before the Soviets invaded, women in Kabul were doctors, lawyers, scientists, writers, activists, artists. But America enabled the fundamentalist ascendency there because of our fear (then) of the godless communists. Now those women, those who still live in Afghanistan, must wear the burkha. Now not because they have to, but out of fear.

Iran, again, we were instrumental in the fundamentalist ascendency there by meddling in their politics and installing a puppet as their shah. The resulting revolution officially ended the communist movement among the country's intellectuals and young people and installed the Ayatollah Khomeini. Big surprise.

Which in turn, as we all know, prompted us to prop up Saddam Hussein in his ridiculous war with Iran.

We all know these things, but we fail to recognize their impact on why things are the way they are in the ME/SE Asia. And we are still impacting the region in a negative way NOW.

And let's not forget that none of us really cared how Islamic societies lived their lives before 9/11. If change is to come, it's going to take a long time. What we need to do in the meantime is form alliances, encourage reform and, since we've pretty much made our bed in the world, sleep in it.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Baraka_Guru

It should be noted that in the '70s, Afghanistan was changed to a republic and leaned toward Marxism. Fundamental Islamic rule came via the Taliban after a number of years.

If anything, it was Western powers that messed things up there.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

mixedmedia

We cannot look at what is going on in the ME/SE Asia today, without taking into account that we always preferred Islamism over any form of socialism/communism for these countries.

We cannot point fingers without pointing at ourselves somewhere along the way.

And just like this is OUR country with OUR laws and OUR traditions, so are our actions out there in the rest of the world. They are OURS, too.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Willravel

I've never heard of that guy. I just asked three other people, and they haven't either. I'll ask later at work, but I suspect no one there's heard of him. And I roll with hardcore liberals (if there's such a thing).

Is he outspoken about Muslim rights? Is he anything other than a member of congress who happens to be Muslim?

Ustwo

The reason there aren't any is because they KNOW they would be assassinated. How amazingly convenient.

The only assassinations these days are character assassinations, your contention is dribble.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Willravel

Your contention that my contention is dribble is in fact dribble. Or is there any other incredibly insightful commentary you'd like to add?

MSD

If they told you that, they clearly aren't Muslim. It's a religion with a clearly defined deity (who happens to be the same one Jews and Christians worship, despite what a lot of people from each group will try to tell you,) and has its own scripture, customs, and dogma. There are sects that stray from the fundamentalist view just like every other religion, and what you see on TV not representative of reality.

highthief

So, if one Muslim father kills his daughter because she won't follow his rules, is it very much different than a Western parent killing their child because they stayed out too late or refused to go to school?

Is one as indicative of a society as another?

__________________
Si vis pacem parabellum.

Willravel

MSD, that information is Abrahamic, and is not shared by most Jewish and Christian organizations. Just fyi. Most Jews and Christians would in fact disagree. From my perspective, they're all still praying to a variation of Zeus or Ra, but that's probably not relevant either.

On the other points I agree 100%, though. Islam is a religion. Buddhism is a way of life.

mixedmedia

Actually, Buddhism is a religion, too. Only a non-deistic religion.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Willravel

No, but how many Imams are raping little Muslim boys? Correlation isn't the same as causation.

I'd call it a philosophy.

biznatch

For those who doubt that Muslims get treated differently at airports: my friend has no accent, grew up in the US, wears no distinctive clothing, but for some reason always gets "SSSS" printed on his boarding pass. You can say all you want, it's racial profiling, and it's wrong.

__________________
Check it out: The Open Source/Freeware/Gratis Software Thread

Ustwo

First, right after 9/11 I was flying all over with several Muslims in my department to various research meetings. We were not flying first class, they had no idea who these guys were, and not once were they searched after the period where EVERYONE was searched.

Second, they didn't want to die. One was upset he wasn't searched, he LOOKED like a 'terrorist', he was an Iranian national trying to get US citizenship. He was a young, single male, he grew up in Iran during the 'revolution', there couldn't be a more likely candidate. He hated what his nation had become, and rejected his religion but no way for the TSA to know that.

Third, racial profiling isn't wrong when it focuses on the most likely candidates. Once they stopped searching everyone, it makes more since to search those who are more likely to be terrorists. Having a computer randomly spew out numbers where the white haired Swedish grandmother gets searched and the 27 year old Iranian national male doesn't is a waste of resources. Sure maybe granny is a secret sympathizer, but where is the smart money? When middle aged white Christians start to blow up planes or fly them into buildings then PLEASE profile me, I don't want to die on a flight because someone was too sensitive.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

highthief

I think you miss my point - people are pointing to this as a "big scary Muslim" moment. Western parents beat and kill their kids in small numbers too, but we're not freaking out over that nor do we feel that such acts are representative of western society.

But mention the word "hijab" and everyone goes barking mad.

I'd be more concerned with fighting child abuse in general than being specifically worried about the Muslim community.

__________________
Si vis pacem parabellum.

filtherton

You're losing your "hardcore liberal" cred. He was sworn into office using thomas jefferson's koran. He's outspoken about human rights, he hasn't made much of a big deal being a muslim, i suppose because the fact that he's a muslim has nothing to do with him being a congressman.

Though there was some outcry from some of the more ignorant folk wondering if the fact that he was muslim meant that the had some sort of allegiance to al qaeda.

mixedmedia

lol, well you can call it whatever you like, will, but Buddhists call it their religion...they go to temple, they lay fruits and flowers on an altar, they perform rituals, they believe in life after death, Mahayana Buddhism (and others, I am sure) also recognizes some celestial gods and goddesses and other deities. It is a religion in every sense.

/end threadjack

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

roachboy

this seems to me the central problem in this thread--as it is in any thread here that involves islam.

in the main, folk aren't talking about a huge self-evidently diverse population of people who have in common a committment to a particular way of life--they are talking about the officially sanctioned Big Other of the moment--a phantasm, a construction that says more about what the american far right sanctions as "that which you are afraid of" than anything else.

so it seems acceptable that people say whatever.
so it seems acceptable that people invert reality, make stuff up ("the muslim community in france is responsible for destroying the country"--this is neo-fascist stupidity, nothing more, nothing less) and indulge arbitrary types of argument (from the highest level of absurdity--"the trade center was attacked therefore islam is a monolith" to more peculiar local variants--"wearing hijab makes you an extremist.")

it's depressing to see this repeat every time islam comes up as a category.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Bill O'Rights

What about profiling in general? I'd argue that profiling is an extremely useful tool. I'd even go on to suggest that you do it every single day of your life.
Throw the word "racial" on the front of it, and it suddenly becomes abhorant.

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

Leto

categorically no. Buddhism is not a religion, unless you want to set up a definition that incorporates all philosophies. In fact Buddhism incorporates aspects of religion within it's paradigm, indicating that gods too can achieve enlightenment if they practice dharma.

Believe me, time spent at temple in Sri Lanka only served to reinforce this concept. They don't pray, they meditate on dharma. Now, the offspring of Buddhism (practiced elsewhere, that isn't orthodox eg. Tibet, Japan) can take on religious trappings for sure. Orthodox or Hinayana (small wheel) Buddhism is all about achieving personal enlightenment. One cannot become a buddha if one aims to be a bhodisatva (Mahayana).


Hey guys, quite dribbling all over this thread!

Willravel

Physically impossible. I've been supporting Kucinich since 2006, I've written every congressman about ending the war... I mean jeez. I cant think of anyone here who is more liberal than I happen to be.
And you knew about that because you googled him. Thanks wiki?

I've still never heard of him outside this thread. He's not an outspoken person about Islam.

mixedmedia

I know that Buddhists don't pray, none of them do, but prayer is not in itself the hallmark of religion.

Even Theravada Buddhism has rituals and specific beliefs in regards to the nature and purpose of life that can be quantified as 'supernatural.' I believe this makes it a religion. Not that that's a bad thing. I have great respect for the Buddhist faith. But it is just that, a faith.

Thanks for commenting on this, rb. I wanted to earlier but was waylaid by real time stuff.

We are falling for the boogeyman bit again.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Bill O'Rights

Even if he did...so what? This is, after all, the information age. This isn't a cock measuring contest, whereby the winner has the most useless knowledge crammed into his cranium.

Actually, you may recall...or not...that there was quite a bit of animosity stirred up over his choosing to be sworn in on the Koran, as opposed to the good old fashioned 'mericun Bible. So, quite a bit of attention was drawn to the fact of his being Muslim. I guess you could call that outspoken. I recall the incident, and I'm old and feeble. Hell, there might even be a thread buried here somewhere about it. It was news. Pointless news. But still news, nonetheless.

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.