no Will, thats the difference between us.

ALL capitalist parties are my enemy.

You simply want a more social, kinder form of capitalism - the iron fist in the velvet glove... a few concessions from the master classes.

I believe in the abolishment of the master class.

I am outside of the system and opposed to all forms of liberal capitalist democracy. Is the Labour party better than the Conservative? Not especially... after 10 years they had become more right wing than the opposition in any case. Some of their people were more forward thinking and more enlightened, but the result of government was the same oppression of the people as always.
____

But back to Islam and its extremism...

It may be true that in Iran there is drinking and whoring and so on in Tehran... this will exclusively be taking place amongst the rich and the elite.

The ordinary youth, the student movements, are becoming more radical and more conservative. In the country, there is no movement towards liberalisation that I see. The world situation is polarising... and in my own view, the West is not helping.

Of course, there are Christian murderers, and grotesque violence against women legitamised in Western African, Hindu and Sikh religions... and in Christianity's too.

Usama Bin Laden reflects on Islam in the same was as the Spanish Inquisition did against Christianity. Someone like Fred Phelps may be just as mad and hateful as Bin Laden (and a lot less clever) - but there is a difference, since one if a powerless hatemonger, and one is followed by millions.

The poverty enforced in many Islamic countries by the emerging robber bandit capitalist societies, reinforced by European and American colonialism - is creating a working class that is suffering under great misery. Of course, the capitalist will tell them to hate the American, to hate the Danish cartoon maker, or whatever else - anything other than the system that creates the poverty.

The future world will not have religion in the sense of as a definition. There is no reason why after the revolution people may not believe in God, but we will see the end of the SOCIAL power of organised religion, and its use as a classification and divide of the working class.

The violence of radical Islam is, really, the "sigh of the oppressed creature"

You know you can parade that guy out as much as you want but its an anomaly not a death cult we have in the mid east. When we have more than a couple of wack jobs doing it let me know, he is the exception that proves the rule.

New boss same as the old boss, you will be just as poor and powerless.

The real point is that Timothy McVeigh was a sociopath and a maniac

In the West Bank you are seeing ordinary people, who in other situations would lead ordinary lives, blowing themselves in the hope that they might kill a few Jewish school children in the process.

They are murderers not because of natural sadism or "evil", but because they are caught in a collective madness.

Check out any thread about socialism and then call me a capitalist. Jeez.

Let's name the terrorist attacks in the US in the past 15 years:
1992: 32 separate attempted or successful bombings and arsons on Abortion clinics
1993: 20 separate attempted or successful bombings and arsons on Abortion clinics
1993: WTC bombing 1
1993: Unabomber returns to bombing
1994: 15 separate attempted or successful bombings and arsons on Abortion clinics
1994: More unabombings
1995: 16 separate attempted or successful bombings and arsons on Abortion clinics
1995: Oklahoma City
1995: More unabombings
1996: 9 separate attempted or successful bombings and arsons on Abortion clinics
1997: 16 separate attempted or successful bombings and arsons on Abortion clinics
1998: 10 separate attempted or successful bombings and arsons on Abortion clinics
1999: 10 separate attempted or successful bombings and arsons on Abortion clinics
2000: 5 separate attempted or successful bombings and arsons on Abortion clinics
2001: 5 separate attempted or successful bombings and arsons on Abortion clinics
2001: New York City/DC/Shanksville
2002: 1 separate attempted or successful bombings and arsons on Abortion clinics
2003: 3 separate attempted or successful bombings and arsons on Abortion clinics
2004: 2 separate attempted or successful bombings and arsons on Abortion clinics


Let's stop kidding ourselves, mkay?

really anti abortion clinic attackers are listed on terrorist watch lists?

or is that your consideration of lumping and recognizing them as terrorists?

You're right, we should keep religious zealots who resort to using explosives off the list. You know, unless they're Muslim. If you're Muslim and commit acts of terrorism, you're a terrorist! :shakehead:

will, I'm asking you honestly and seriously and you retort with a snarky comment.

Do you know of any organized christian groups that are recognized as terrorist groups or that are worthy of being included on terrorist watch groups?

That's true, I'm the only person that does this.
Many of the radical right wing/christian groups have names, including many associated with abortion clinic bombings. We don't know them because they're rarely published, as opposed to radical Islamic groups which are covered extensively.

I'm not accusing you of anything will, stop it already. I'm trying to discuss something with you and you are making it harder than it should be.

Please list a single one of these right wing/christian groups with names.

I already explained that this would be difficult, but for the sake of argument:
John Burt, a member of the KKK, a radical protestant religious group, broke into an abortion clinic and assaulted two female employees before being arrested. John was also a member of the organization "Rescue America", which is a vocal anti-abortion organization which has many militant members.

There's two names. If you need more, such as "Defensive Action", I can give you more. All I needed was google.

I believe the IRA is/was one of them.

I think because many of these Christian terrorists maybe acting independently as opposed to as an organized terror group.

Many of them were members of radical organizations, but I must say that even if one were acting alone, does that make it any less terrorism?

So if a white guy hijacks a plane and flies it into a building then cross-ethnic profiling will be appropriate?

Besides, I think profiling is a placebo to make us feel better.

Truth is, the only thing that's really going to keep planes safe is keeping dangerous paraphrenalia off of planes and they seem to be doing a piss-poor job of that, too.

This is, in my opinion, perfectly correct. Profiling keeps us feeling safe. The problem, though, is that this useless action is harmful to people. That has to be enough to outweigh the good of keeping the ignorant masses happy and quiet.

So if anyone sees me hanging around outside an abortion clinic feel free to profile me.

Seriously quit grasping, the IRA isn't going to be hijacking US Jets, nor are anti-abortion terrorists. Therefore its kinda silly to profile those people at airports. If the IRA decides to become active again in the US or they start performing abortions on aircraft, then feel free to change the profile.

YOU'RE WHITE?!

But seriously, two hijacking as a part of one plan and your panties are in a bunch? Comon. They should be spending the time they would spend profiling actually trying to find weapons on people or having marshals on planes.

I'm a middle aged white male, prime candidate for bombing an abortion clinic.

But as for the airlines, yea because thats the ONLY place 99% of us run into this. The TSA should be allowed to racially profile, period.

First off, if a terrorist organization were going to commit a terrorist attack, they'd probably not use planes anymore. They'd use a bomb. If they were stupid enough to use a plane again, they'd probably send whitewashed people who aren't likely to be profiled.

So since they aren't going to use planes anymore we can just do away with airport security?

I'm glad you know how to run a terrorist organization and the type of people involved, but if you don't mind I'll stick to the screening.

Oh so since I'm saying that one tactic that airport security uses doesn't work, we should do away with the whole thing?

First off, they should screen everyone. It's airport security. I don't want anyone bringing on anything they shouldn't be.

Second, I don't think alienating the Muslim community through humiliating and unethical "special treatment" is a good idea at this time. I think everyone wants Muslims to feel like they're helping, not that they're being all but accused of being terrorists.

Please, by any means, give me REAL security. Really make me feel safe in an airplane. Tons of us do wonder if it could happen again. But I do not feel safer when someone who just happens to be more dark skinned than me and comes from a different place goes receives unequal, different treatment. I just feel nauseous.
Now, what would make us feel safer? This might belong to another thread, but just for the sake of discussion:
Better detectors, for one. I've read countless stories of people forgetting their knife/lighter in their pocket and going through security without being stopped.
Also, I wouldn't mind having my ID checked as I board the plane. Once you're through security, you basically don't need an ID. Just your boarding pass. That's not reassuring
Air marshals would be great, too. They certainly could prevent a few guys armed with boxcutters.
The terrorists might not use planes next time. If they do, though, it'd be good to have smarter security policies, and way more effective than racial profiling.

Yeah, agreed. Wtf is going on with this thread...

And now some people close to this young girl are saying the hijab had nothing to do with it, that other women in the same family were not wearing the hijab.

Maybe the death of this young girl has sweet f-all to do with being Muslim and everything to do with being part of a disfunctional, stressed out family - as unfortunately happens often enough in "Christian" families.

http://www.canada.com/topics/news/na...b-44ea5a8a7c36

Sorry, I cannot seem to cut and paste the relevant portion of the articles. My browser, I think, not a TFP related problem.

here here. This has all the hallmarks of a long simmering conflict between teenaged daughter who was interested in hanging with her peers, and traditional, old-world minded father whose temper was definitely not held in check. Add on to that the issues that can cause flare ups such as stress of odl/new world culture and you have a situations where tragedy can happen.

Outside the family, the media can put a simplistic spin on the events, such as hijab/integration etc, but i suspect that it was much deeper than this.

If only it were that simple, but take a look at the honor killings even back in their own culture and country that go on to this day.

This is not an isolated incident.

http://www.law-lib.utoronto.ca/Diana/fulltext/wile.htm

For example, in many countries, domestic violence has only recently been recognized as a crime. In other countries, it is considered to be outside the state's jurisdiction ... Mertus further documents that "in Brazil, until 1991 wife killings were considered to be noncriminal "honor killings'; in just one year, nearly eight hundred husbands killed their wives. Similarly, in Colombia, until 1980, a husband legally could kill his wife for committing adultery."

Best to do up a 4 page post and innumerable media articles on all those Christian South Americans too.

Seriously, whether this case is an honour killing or not that is directly related to Islam (which is unlikely, as this sort of thing is rare in places like Malaysia), directly related to local custom (possible) or just a case of a fucked up family and father (perhaps the most likely scenario), it is interesting to note how such practices occur today in some Latin American countries, in African nations (both Christian and Muslim). It wasn't that long ago (and I mean within my lifetime) that such things occured in Italy and Greece, too.

The point being that family violence is an issue a lot larger than one of "well, it's a Muslim problem".

Some good points. What we see here is a particular brand of violence against women. At the risk of sounding repetitive, this is a cultural problem based on corrupt Islamic dogma.

It's true this isn't an isolated incident. This is not a reason to apply a disproportionate amount of indiscriminate pressure on the Muslim community as a whole.

A friend of mine was severely abused verbally and emotionally (and sometimes physically, I think) by her old-world Italian mother. She constantly degraded her, making her feel like a sexual deviant despite being chaste out of fear. There was little logic to her words; they were based on ignorance and a measure of hate. A very devout Christian woman. This wasn't a Christian thing per se, it was an old-Sicilian-Christian-now-living-in-Canada thing.

I could go all host like on these with examples, yes such crimes are done in other cultures, but now its Muslims bringing it to our shores and that obviously can't be tolerated in the least. Liberals tell me its ok they do this in their own countries we have no right to interfere but if they want to bring this crap culture here then we need to start doing 'something' about it. I don't want the US to have Muslim youths rioting like they are in France, with a government afraid to act.

Which liberals are you talking about? Your liberal friends?

I hope the US has learned from the Black riots that have already happened. It would be a shame if the Muslim American community falls into the same class of racism. But this is a different story. This isn't about violence against women within the context of cultural shortcomings as contrasted to progressive societies. What you are talking about is systemic racism within the context of multiculturalism.

I lived in Rhodesia during the revolution period. It was this time the bomb killed losts of people at the Wooly's in Salisbury. It was a real mess. After that the Army conducted spot checks. They were very effective and they gathered everyone around a whole city block - black and white - and looked in their bags. I didn't mind having my bags checked and it was nice to feel safe again. The shops however controlled only black africans entering. But do I blame them? Did I feel any less safe? Nope. In desperation the "terrorsts" place a few bombs in letter boxes (only once) that turned the contents into shreds, but no one was hurt.

If you're blind I don't think you would be offended if someone noticed that you cannot see. In dangerous situations those involved know the score. I think that if I were an American Arab (concerned about the lives of my family) I'd like to know that the U.S. government is doing something to protect me. Controlling Arabs more than anyone else would probably comfort me rather than offend me. That's the way it should be too.

How in the hell did this thread go from a guy killing his teen daughter to racial profiling at the airport?

The word "Muslim" came up.

It's like Pavlov's Dog.

Literate people call it "discussion".

People who aren't being smart-asses call it derailing a thread, going off-topic, and threadjacking.

And I'll thank you to spare us your opinions on our literacy.

Whew! Talk about "jumping to conclusions", "chip on the shoulder" and inferior complexes. :eek: :eek: :eek: Who's "us" and "our" anyway? Did I forget to mention paranoia too? :eek:

I'd appreciate it if you'd quit yammering nonsense and let this thread get back on track. Thanks.

Post #57 was the first but post #70 got me rolling for #71.

... and you truely believe that this comment of yours is the best way to accomplish that, do you? :eek:

I'll folllow your lead back, how's that?

You're welcome. :)

Again with the level-headed logic, Ustwo. :) You're a real killjoy. :grumpy:

:lol: Now I know why my wife gets so aggravated with me for being over literal. But, still, it appeals to my bizzare sense of humor.

Fast Forward.
Let's put the attitude away, what say? I think that you've pretty much expended your allotment of "snarkiness", and are now beginning to operate on a deficit. 'Nuff said?

I'm glad someone appreciated the effort ;)

I see. So your comment on "snarkiness" and "deficit operation" is what you consider "attitude put away", eh? I find your attitude (now) something in the realm of "attitude given another spin of the wheel".

If perpetual motion had been given its' full reign "the attitude" would have been put to sleep by now, but you think your comment is some kind of lofty contribution to diplomatic peace? :no: Jesus wept.

Here's some advice: Go back to sleep and "the attitude" will join you. Now .... "nuff said". Unless you'd like to enter the arena one more time?

What, exactly, is your problem?

Funniest thing I've seen in a while, thank you for the giggle.

wow.. i go and come back and theres a thread i thought looked interesting..

would have loved to contribute.. and as a liberal muslim, would have loved to contribute to the discussion as i think i would have had much to add to the discussion.

unfortunately the way this thread has gone, it irks be to think that i'd rather not contribute as i personally think that it really think that any additions i made wouldnt be constructive given the downward spiral this thread has taken.

I am SOOOOO emailing you the next time that one of these pops up.....

I think the "downward spiral" has been arrested. Please. Feel free to add your thoughts. It can only help to provide a little "altitude" to the thread. Plus, I have a feeling that you'd have quite a bit to impart.

Heh, I knew you were a liberal Muslim, but I thought you were staying out of the thread on purpose, earlier. I wasn't blaming you for staying out of it, and I don't blame you for staying out of it, now. :) But I, for one, would still respect what you have to say on the issue.

I read ahead in the posts till I read Xephries, but, I'm coming back to this post.

I agree with Ustwo.

The murder of this girl is an example of how some cultures in this world are indeed fucked up. Sorry to be politically incorrect, but cutting off women's clitorises, and honour killings for not wearing the appropriate garb is just plain crazy.

Why anyone would want to import any such culture to North America is beyond me.

I'm all for multiculturalism when it comes to food, or restaurants. After that, I'll take my western civilization complete with the separation of church and state and equal rights for all thank you very much.

Xephries, fascinating post by the way.

Some do, but they end up with a dagger sticking out of their chest.

Or living in fear like Irshad Manji who wrote "The trouble with Islam."

http://www.irshadmanji.com/

This week in Toronto a 16-year-old Muslim girl was murdered, allegedly by her own father.

Aqsa Parvez told friends and adults at her public high school that she feared what her father would do if she stuck by her decision to reject the hijab — the Islamic headscarf. She also said it’s better to live in a shelter than at home.

Nobody listened. Now she’s dead.

Moderate Muslims have warned that we shouldn’t leap to conclusions. Who knows what other dynamics infected her family, spout hijab-hooded mouthpieces on Canadian TV. Not once have I heard these upstanding Muslims say that whatever the “family dynamics,” killing is not a solution. Ever. How’s that for basic morality?

Of course, mainstream Muslims will argue that I’m the one who needs to learn basic morality. After all, they’ll say, the Qur’an obligates pious women to wear the hijab.

Not quite. The Qur’an asks women and men to dress modestly. That could mean wearing long sleeves. The hijab itself comes from tribal culture that pre-dates Islam. And culture, far from being God-given, is man-made.

You need venture no further than Muslim Girl magazine to witness how mainstream Muslims reinforce the lie that the hijab is mandatory. This supposedly hip (and certainly glossy) publication routinely features covered girls as their cover girls. So much for representing the full diversity of the Muslim sisterhood.

Even “progressive” non-Muslims fall into this trap. Study the photo above. It’s a post-card flogged by the Interfaith Center of New York. Can you detect even one Muslim woman who’s not covered?

I see the veiled chick at the far end. It gets less conservative from there — but not to the point of depicting a Muslim woman who prays without submitting herself to a scarf.

Worse, the blurb on the back celebrates the “diversity of Muslim communities in the city.” Show me where.

Of course, the diversity exists in spades. So does the tension between Muslim parents and their daughters. In Berlin earlier this year, a group of young Muslim women — not a hijabi among them! — approached me to express gratitude that I’d posted an Islamic defense of inter-faith marriage.

Because this document is written by an imam, they can use it to legitimately challenge parents and clerics who want to force girls into loveless marriages with other Muslims. These young women told me that the Islamic inter-faith marriage defense is being downloaded by their friends. It’s also being used by German social services to counsel distraught Muslim girls.

For all of my readers who feel powerless to help another Aqsa Parvez, I have simple advice: Listen to her. Then come to this website for resources in various languages. Be not afraid of anything except complacency.

Meanwhile, may Aqsa rest in peace. Finally.