Fire

note the church shootings in colorado today- most security that is armed has less strict rules/testing than it takes to get a CCW- (around here, for example, in the city there is a written test and a shooting test, but no training required, while a ccw requires a course- in the county you can just carry a gun with the employers permission) and an armed security guard stopped the gunman, not before he killed and wounded a few, but before he could kill more- as the pastor saids, the armed guard prevented a greater tragedy.... that tells me that more guns = less casualties..... or as malcolm reynolds said, "if someone tries to kill you, you kill em right back." armed people are by nature more likely to fight back, and that is what you SHOULD do if attacked......

__________________
Thought the harder, Heart the bolder,
Mood the more as our might lessens

dksuddeth

and yet people wear seatbelts, have fire extinguishers, and buy insurance for something that may never happen.

Frankly, one would be certifiably insane to NOT prepare for the mere possibility that their family could be tortured and murdered.

Personally, willravel, I think that it is your immense animosity towards guns and violence that prevents you from even acknowledging anything other than 'guns are bad, mmmk?' and I sincerely hope your family never suffers for it.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Baraka_Guru

Can we please keep a little perspective? One is far more likely to die in any combination of ways related to automobile crashes, fire, and other accidents than they are from a home invasion or random shooting.

Are you calling me insane for not owning a firearm? Or is this merely for you Americans where you are far more likely to be a victim of a violent crime than here in Canada?

If I told my family and friends that I had just bought a rifle, while living and Toronto and having no intention of being a hunter, they'd likely consider me a bit paranoid....or insane. But maybe you're right, DK. Maybe it would be insane not to have a firearm in the American home. But that doesn't mask the fact that there are far too many problems with firearms that have nothing to do with home invasions and random shootings. What can we do about those?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

dksuddeth

No. I am not saying you are insane for not owning a firearm. I'm saying that those who would say that the odds of their family being tortured, murdered, and mutilated are so low that they don't even bother considering it should be insane. My opinion is that my families safety, especially from those bent on criminal intent, is my highest priority, and it should be that way for others.

why?

For one, keep the violent offenders locked up instead of sentencing them to 25 years and then letting them out after 3 because the prison is overcrowded. For two, stop letting places like NYcity, chicago, DC, and california deprive the people of gun ownership while instilling good firearm safey values and make the criminal element scared to employ it's chosen career field.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Willravel

There are an average of over 6 million auto accidents in the US alone every year. There are an average of over 1.5 million reported fires each year. How many shootings are there?
What? You prepare to be tortured? By whom?
Fortunately, unless I get lottery like odds drawn, they won't. I'm very fortunate that police in San Jose are really good and that there actually aren't many guns per capita in my area. Our crime rate is VERY low. (It's like living in Canada!) I'm more likely to be a finalist on American Idol.

Plan9

Washington D.C. crime rate... say what?

Will, you've made your point. People that wear pants prepare for not being naked.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Willravel

FINALLY someone gets what I'm saying!
*puts 3 pairs of jeans on, just in case*

Plan9

*gives WillRavel a Romanian SAR-1 semiauto AK47 w/ 75 round drum*

This is in case of boredom. Point it at the paper targets, squeeze the trigger, enjoy the noise, and try not to think too much about things out of your control.

Fun, isn't it!?

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

ring

I believe I will 'stick' with my sword for now,
and if I drop it, I will bend at the knees to pick it up.

/End Thread Jill.

Baraka_Guru

I agree with your intent but disagree with your method.

Because the normal (i.e. sane) thing to do would be to install a sophisticated alarm system, move to a better neighbourhood, take self-defense courses, or a combination thereof.

I agree. Violent offenders should serve their sentences, but should have the opportunity for parole and only within a reasonable amount of time (3 years seems a bit short). Overcrowding is not a good reason, which is why it's good that de-industrialized and de-agricultrialized small-town America is shifting to prison farming. Well, it's not a good thing, considering America as a prison state needs to sort out its problems, but, for the time being, it's better to house your abject citizens rather than exterminate them.

And good luck scaring criminality out of criminals. Many criminals aren't that way by choice. It's not like they're going to be too afraid to rob or steal and decide to try corporate America to fulfill their crack habit or to shake off those loan sharks in fear of losing their kneecaps. You can't scare away desperation. Desperation is already afraid. That's how people get shot.

But I'm all for instilling firearm safety values, especially since there are so many guns floating around in America. Children should be taught how to avoid blowing their faces off when they find Daddy's "cool gun." But this only goes so far. The suicidal don't care about safety values, nor do enraged spouses. Oh, and murder suicides are usually a combination of the two.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

dksuddeth

and yet, it does seem to work.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php...show_article=1

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Fotzlid

GAAAAHHHH... just typed out a long reply and lost it...now...
lets try again...

thats odd. a church with armed volunteer security guards.


guess i'm insane then.
i dont think believe that owning a gun would make any difference. first off, the gun would probably be stashed away somewhere in the house. if someone was breaking in to harm myself or my wife (we dont have children), chances are they would get me before i got the gun. if i was so paranoid that i kept the gun handy at all times, i probably shouldnt have one.
furthermore, the odds of someone doing that are probably the same as me winning a $150million+ lottery jackpot. i have no solid numbers but the occurances of both in my area are the same. 0.
my attitude towards gun ownership might admittedly be different if i lived in a high crime area. it might not. i dont know and i'm not moving to find out.

i seriously dont believe that more guns are the answer. these shootings are random events scattered across the country.
what needs to be done is improvements in the area of mental health. long term hospitals are a thing of the past. insurers dont pay. the short term hospitals dont take people without insurance. mental health workers are grossly underpaid and overworked. if resources were available, this kid may not have slipped through the cracks and got the help he needed.

Plan9

/SUPER BONUS THREADJACK w/ LARGE FRY

My karate instructor, an eight time world champion in full contact freestyle martial arts competition was asked about his feelings regarding guns and self defense:

"You know what karate move I deploy when a man pulls a gun on me? Surrender."

There are only a handful of men on the planet that can fight like him, but he's made it quite clear that technology has one-upped the human body in that aspect.

"I've got two sets of amazing weapons: My hands and my feet. Neither of them are faster than a bullet."

All the martial arts training, physical fitness, situational awareness, and hardcore discipline in the world can be destroyed by some street thug with a loaded Glock and a functioning index finger.

Guns are not dangerous because they kill people efficiently... they're dangerous because any idiot can use them regardless of education or physical ability. That old pearl: "God didn't make men equal... guns did."

There is very little honor in firearms. They are not poetic. I like them as a hobby, not as a way of life. Maybe that is the fundamental difference between myself and some of the other "gun nuts" on the board here. Hard to tell at times... but if I had my way? I'd melt 'em all down and make 'em into motorcycle parts and there would be no more war.

Human violence would find a way, people. It is in our nature to destroy ourselves. As an crusty old paratrooper mentor of mine said: "Only the tools change."

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Willravel

NO FRIES! I'M ON ATKINS!
He should take Krav Maga. They have entire forms based on separating people from their guns at close range. Long range? Duck.
Well put.

Plan9

I wish more people who have actually been in gun fights had such strong opinions about firearms.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Bill O'Rights

Hmmmm...

So nice to see this devolve into the usual "Guns are the spawn of Satan." vs "Don't infringe on my 2nd Amendment rights." argument. I'd sure hate like hell to see anything refreshing.

The Westroads did, in fact, reopen last Saturday. The community turned out in force. Not to go to the mall, but to stand outside of it, in 13 degree cold, to counter protest a promised arrival of a contingent from the Westboro Baptist Church.
Yep, Freddie Phelps says all of this is 'cause o' them damn fags. Must've been to cold for the pussies, because they never did show up. Instead, those that showed up to counter protest, held a candlelight vigil. Oddly enough...I didn't see any of that on CNN, or the BBC. Guess it wasn't spectacular enough.

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

dksuddeth

you answered your own question, then realizing that doesn't fit your agenda, sum it up with paranoia abounds claims?

The billionaire, jimmy buffet, suffered a home invasion a while back. I'm pretty sure that he lives in what would be considered a low crime area. Didn't seem to make a difference though.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Willravel

Translation: "There are 1/1,000,000 odds that this will happen, but it's common because I point out that one case."
It's the same old song and dance. "BUT WILL, you wouldn't want to be that one!" No of course not, but it's so unlikely that preparing for it makes no sense. It'd be like preparing for a plane to land on your house or for my dog to learn how to speak. There are some things that are so unlikely that it really makes no sense to prepare for them. "But the second amendment...!" Yes, the second amendment, as it's currently interpreted, says you can have a gun. That's great, own a gun and try to be responsible with it. That hardly means that everyone will be responsible with their gun. If you need proof of that, read the OP. "Gun bans don't work!" Well they sure don't work in Washington D.C., which is within throwing distance of West Virginia, which has some of the most lax gun laws in the US. Obviously they can't stop every car that crosses the state border to check for guns, so it was never going to work. Fortunately, gun crime in the UK is working really well. That's not to say I think a gun ban would work in the US, just that it can work in some places.

Is that all the arguments we usually have? I wanted to get them out of the way so we don't threadjack.

Plan9

Yeah, these stale old arguments need a good douche of Summer's Eve.

The problem with this debate is how "right" each side can be.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Fotzlid

no. i was replying directly to your statement as it relates to me.