What's the deal with Ayn Rand..? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Reese · 10-20-2007, 05:54 PM

In the whole 25 years of my life, I'd only barely heard about Ayn Rand, and might have talked about Objectivism for 5 minutes in school. For the last 3 or 4 months it's seems like I can't quit seeing something about her. First it was the video game Bioshock, then Randomhouse includes 4 of her books in the best 100 novels with all of them in the top 10.. Don't wanna get into the fact that 3 L ron Hubbard books are also in the same top 10.. There's also a thread on this forum that I didn't want to hijack.

So, What's the deal? Is this just another one of those topics that just happened to fly under my radar for my whole life then suddenly I'm in tune with it, or has she had a surge of popularity.. I don't get it..

Willravel · 10-20-2007, 05:57 PM

Hard to say, really. Very good question.

Ustwo · 10-20-2007, 06:10 PM

Vast right wing conspiracy of course.

ngdawg · 10-20-2007, 06:18 PM

I've known, read Ayn Rand since high school, back in the stone ages...every once in a while, specially when politics is the big news, she pops up. Her political views came through in her writing(very extreme), so it's natural...
Cool, Anthem made the list. It's such a small book and no one I talk to ever heard of it.

Sion · 10-20-2007, 07:11 PM

Rand's politics and philosophy (see below) have a certain attractiveness, especially to young and idealistic readers, which explains in part her continuing popularity. She was not, however, a particularly engaging author. Maybe it's due to her ethnicity, but I found her work dense and boring beyond belief, much like Dostoyevsky's. I managed to slog through about 50-75 pages of The Fountainhead before giving up. I could find no reason to care about her characters, therefore saw no reason to wade through the morass of her prose, in order to get to the philosophy or even see how the story came out.

Perhaps her other works are different, but Fountainhead left such a bad taste in my mouth (so to speak) that I've had no inclination in the intervening 15 years to find out.

from wikipedia:

Ayn Rand (IPA: /ˈaɪn ˈrænd/, February 2 [O.S. January 20] 1905 – March 6, 1982), born Alisa Zinov'yevna Rosenbaum (Russian: Алиса Зиновьевна Розенбаум), was a Russian-born American novelist and philosopher,[1] known for creating a philosophy she named "Objectivism" and for writing the novels We the Living, The Fountainhead, Atlas Shrugged and the novella Anthem. Her influential and often controversial ideas have attracted both enthusiastic admiration and scathing denunciation.

Rand's writing (both fiction and non-fiction) emphasizes the philosophic concepts of objective reality in metaphysics, reason in epistemology, and rational egoism in ethics. In politics she was a proponent of laissez-faire capitalism and a staunch defender of individual rights, believing that the sole function of a proper government is protection of individual rights (including property rights).

She believed that individuals must choose their values and actions solely by reason, and that "Man — every man — is an end in himself, not the means to the ends of others." According to Rand, the individual "must exist for his own sake, neither sacrificing himself to others nor sacrificing others to himself. The pursuit of his own rational self-interest and of his own happiness is the highest moral purpose of his life."

Rand decried the initiation of force and fraud, and held that government action should consist only in protecting citizens from criminal aggression (via the police) and foreign aggression (via the military) and in maintaining a system of courts to decide guilt or innocence and to objectively resolve disputes. Her politics are generally described as minarchist and libertarian, though she did not use the first term and disavowed any connection to the second.[2]

Rand, a self-described hero-worshiper, stated in her book The Romantic Manifesto that the goal of her writing was "the projection of an ideal man." In reference to her philosophy, Objectivism, she said: "My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute." (Appendix to Atlas Shrugged)

xepherys · 10-21-2007, 02:42 AM

Oddly, BioShock seems to have spawned some new Randian interest. The gamer-geek crowd is often fairly intelligent, and the comparison to Randian philosophy sparked a lot of interest. The publishers, too, likely caught wind of this and pressed a larger than normal number of copies, which the bookstores then put on display.

I've found recently that media has played a large role in driving the sale of older books quite a bit lately. It's interesting...

flat5 · 10-21-2007, 05:15 AM

I enjoyed "The Fountainhead" VERY much.

(so did Gerry Mulligan and Sandy Dennis)

MSD · 10-21-2007, 08:50 AM

I forget who said it, but I think it was put best in the comment "Objectivism is a philosophy that's highly appealing to those who were born on third base and think they hit a triple."

Bioshock and the alleged Atlas Shrugged movie have kicked up some interest lately, but it's one of those things that you probably just never paid attention to in the past.

blahblah454 · 10-21-2007, 09:29 AM

I have never even heard of her. And after reading this thread I really don't have any desire to further my understanding... except perhaps to play Bioshock!

xepherys · 10-21-2007, 10:00 AM

While I can't comment on her books, Randian Objectivism is certainly an interesting philosophy.

Ourcrazymodern? · 10-21-2007, 05:00 PM

Ayn Rand flew among us and enjoyed her stay, I think.

Many hours are not spent in vain.

Crack · 10-22-2007, 11:55 AM

Objectivism is indeed an interesting philosophy. The Idea of extreme capitalism is fun to entertain (laissez-faire capitalism — i.e., a society in which individual rights are consistently respected and in which all property is (therefore) privately owned) but as everything taken to extreme, it would never work.

Quote:

Far from regarding capitalism as a dog-eat-dog pattern of social organization, Objectivism regards it as a beneficent system in which the innovations of the most creative benefit everyone else in the society. Indeed, Objectivism values creative achievement itself and regards capitalism as the only kind of society in which it can flourish.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ayn Rand

Ayn Rand characterized Objectivism as a philosophy "for living on earth," grounded in reality and aimed at achieving knowledge about the natural world and harmonious, mutually beneficial interactions between human beings. Rand wrote:

My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute.

1. Man as a heroic being. Sounds good to me.
2. His own happiness as the moral purpose of his life. Check
3. Productive achievement as the noblest goal. Sure, sign me up!
4. Reason as his only absolute. Okay, sure... wait a tick...

"Reason as his only absolute"

After reading Terry Goodkind books, Objectivism looks on the surface to be a very well thought out and inspired philosophy, but I am weak minded and simple, and often after watching "Heroes" on NBC, I want nothing more than to drive the new and exciting Nissan Rogue!

Esoteric · 10-22-2007, 01:29 PM

I had only heard about this woman and Atlas Shrugged after playing BioShock because I found out there were some references to the book. Though I can say it has sort of piqued my interest in her books and may try to read them sometime in the near future.

BioShock was an excellent game too.

squeeeb · 10-22-2007, 06:40 PM

ayn rand rocks. the fountainhead was a kick ass book, better than anthem, i thought. they made it into a movie with gregory peck, i think. just google "howard roark" to see all the stuff that's been spawned by the book.

the simpsons alluded to her in the fourth season, with the "ayn rand school for tots" which was funny cause the school was all stoic and weird...

an obscure bit of pop culture, Matt Ruff's book Sewer, Gas and Electric has a talking ayn rand lamp,

i'm sure her or her books have shown up other places.

so, she is mentioned a lot, at least if you are looking for her, i guess...i liked her stuff...

Ourcrazymodern? · 10-23-2007, 05:58 AM

Damnit, now I need to go back and re-read the entire collection!

It drove me crazy the first time.

(Neglect to remember what a short drive that probably was, I beg you.)

If all the movers and shakers willfully extricated themselves from the world, the rest of us would be screwed.
Offensive? I think so, but it strikes me as true nonetheless

Crack · 10-23-2007, 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wikipedia

# n the Futurama episode "I Second That Emotion", the 'library' in the mutants' village is a lone bookshelf stocking literary items flushed down toilets from above. When Bender takes a look on it, he finds Atlas Shrugged and says "Nothing but crumpled porno and Ayn Rand."
# In the South Park episode "Chicken Lover", Officer Barbrady reads Atlas Shrugged after overcoming his illiteracy. He later states to the town that he "read every last word of this piece of garbage" and because he did so "will never read anything ever again."

squeeeb · 10-23-2007, 07:55 AM

yeah, i forgot about the south park episode...

roachboy · 10-23-2007, 08:54 AM

outside of the cadere of self-important bourgeois teenage boys who seem to be her main demographic, the popularity of ayn rand is a total mystery to me.
her "philosophy" is basically just a simplistic restatement of a basic capitalist rationality.
stylistically, she is among the worst writers i have ever read.
i would rather drive tacks into my forehead than read her work again, ever.

Mondak · 10-23-2007, 10:42 AM

First - the question first asked: why the sudden interest in Ayn Rand? A couple reasons that I am aware of:

Rand wrote the crown jewel of her work, Atlas Shrugged 50 years ago this month. There has been a good deal of celebration and recognition around that anniversary. You also had the media covering Alan Greenspan's new book, The Age of Turbulence: Adventures in a New World earlier this month. Greenspan was a friend of Ayn Rand before she died and lists her often as inspiration, teacher and ongoing guide even after her death. There is a very long list of successful people who list her in a similar fashion even if they did not know her.

I agree that there is a lot of attention around her lately. In addition to the few sightings that are listed above, Angelina Jolie has been cast as Dagney Taggart, the heroine of Atlas Shrugged. It is due in 2008 or 2009. I suspect if you are seeing it a lot now, it is going to be a lot more prevalent in the coming months / years. (NOTE: I have no idea how you can do the book as a movie without missing the point, however if the only result is that lots of other people decide to read the book for themselves, then that is great)

Second - Since others have offered their opinions on Rand above, I will offer mine.

Ayn Rand is the single most influential author I have ever read. As opposed to the suggested audience listed above, I first read her when I was 30. The characters in The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged are amazing. Even though the books are written more than 50 years ago, I see these very same people every day throughout life. The books are so very well written with a plot that is quite compelling and thought provoking. I would speak to my wife for hours about what I had read that day while I was reading the books. The magic in the books is what I realized about myself and who I wanted to be while reading a fictional story. The most wonderful compliment she gave me though was that I didn't change my views on things as a result of reading the books. The difference is that I am so much better at expressing it.

The books are a challenge make no mistake. This is not some vapid romance story or pure entertainment novel. Rand's argument on man as a hero is well thought out and developed. She uses the characters (intensely in Atlas Shrugged, somewhat more subtly in The Fountainhead) to deliver that argument. If a reader just tries to blow through the book without truly processing what is being said, I can see it being a fairly unsatisfactory experience. Each point in the argument is submitted to the reader to weigh before moving on to the next point that may be related or built upon. The construction and order that she presents the information is key to its support - much like a building has to start with the foundation. The support the book delivers for her philosophy is anything but simple. It is solid, elegant and inspirational if a reader takes the time to understand it.

If someone has a preconceived notion about the book, it's purpose and the argument it delivers, I am sure it is easier to read it in such a way that skips / skims over parts of the book that end up causing cognitive dissonance (such as discussions of the moral base of a self interested person). It would be a wonderful challenge to read the book and instead of dismiss what you don't like or what makes you uncomfortable, understand exactly what your argument against it is what premises your argument is based upon.

A final thought: I would be willing to buy and send two separate TFP members a copy of The Fountainhead or Atlas Shrugged (one to each) if they really wanted to read them. Please don't disrespect the offer and ask for them if you are not really going to read them.

- Atlas Shrugged is over 1100 pages and more challenging of the two but also more rewarding. The main character is a woman who runs a railroad in the late 40s or early 50s.

- The Fountainhead is just under 700 pages. The story is about an architect who lives his life without compromise. (As a personal note: this book had a tremendous positive effect on me in my personal life as well as professionally. I always sort of thought I was alone in the world and the way I approached life until I read this book. I have been inspired to live my life to a very high standard ever since.)

Since not a lot of people know me I will let you know that I am a successful business owner living outside San Diego California. While I did not grow up in poverty, I am most certainly a self made man - building what I have and working hard to create opportunities for myself.

I have been married for almost 7 years. My wife and I have a very healthy, solid realtionship. We have one son who is 2 years old. I'd be happy to share other details if it matters.

ProfessorMayhem · 10-23-2007, 12:56 PM

People do seem inherently unable to convey a quick synopsis of Rand's books. You usually get little more than vague descriptions which eventually end with "you just have to read it to understand."

I encounter these people fairly regularly. Some of us have taken to calling them "Randroids."

I see the issue as two-fold:

1) When you get down to it, Rand's entire schtick seems to revolve around her being an unattractive women with power and control issues.

and...

2) There must be some nefarious organization out there who's sole purpose is to put a copy of The Fountainhead into the hands of every 16 year old in America.

Ustwo · 10-23-2007, 01:09 PM

Mondak -

Excellent post.

Redjake · 10-23-2007, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mondak

First - the question first asked: why the sudden interest in Ayn Rand? A couple reasons that I am aware of:

Rand wrote the crown jewel of her work, Atlas Shrugged 50 years ago this month. There has been a good deal of celebration and recognition around that anniversary. You also had the media covering Alan Greenspan's new book, The Age of Turbulence: Adventures in a New World earlier this month. Greenspan was a friend of Ayn Rand before she died and lists her often as inspiration, teacher and ongoing guide even after her death. There is a very long list of successful people who list her in a similar fashion even if they did not know her.

I agree that there is a lot of attention around her lately. In addition to the few sightings that are listed above, Angelina Jolie has been cast as Dagney Taggart, the heroine of Atlas Shrugged. It is due in 2008 or 2009. I suspect if you are seeing it a lot now, it is going to be a lot more prevalent in the coming months / years. (NOTE: I have no idea how you can do the book as a movie without missing the point, however if the only result is that lots of other people decide to read the book for themselves, then that is great)

Second - Since others have offered their opinions on Rand above, I will offer mine.

Ayn Rand is the single most influential author I have ever read. As opposed to the suggested audience listed above, I first read her when I was 30. The characters in The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged are amazing. Even though the books are written more than 50 years ago, I see these very same people every day throughout life. The books are so very well written with a plot that is quite compelling and thought provoking. I would speak to my wife for hours about what I had read that day while I was reading the books. The magic in the books is what I realized about myself and who I wanted to be while reading a fictional story. The most wonderful compliment she gave me though was that I didn't change my views on things as a result of reading the books. The difference is that I am so much better at expressing it.

The books are a challenge make no mistake. This is not some vapid romance story or pure entertainment novel. Rand's argument on man as a hero is well thought out and developed. She uses the characters (intensely in Atlas Shrugged, somewhat more subtly in The Fountainhead) to deliver that argument. If a reader just tries to blow through the book without truly processing what is being said, I can see it being a fairly unsatisfactory experience. Each point in the argument is submitted to the reader to weigh before moving on to the next point that may be related or built upon. The construction and order that she presents the information is key to its support - much like a building has to start with the foundation. The support the book delivers for her philosophy is anything but simple. It is solid, elegant and inspirational if a reader takes the time to understand it.

If someone has a preconceived notion about the book, it's purpose and the argument it delivers, I am sure it is easier to read it in such a way that skips / skims over parts of the book that end up causing cognitive dissonance (such as discussions of the moral base of a self interested person). It would be a wonderful challenge to read the book and instead of dismiss what you don't like or what makes you uncomfortable, understand exactly what your argument against it is what premises your argument is based upon.

A final thought: I would be willing to buy and send two separate TFP members a copy of The Fountainhead or Atlas Shrugged (one to each) if they really wanted to read them. Please don't disrespect the offer and ask for them if you are not really going to read them.

- Atlas Shrugged is over 1100 pages and more challenging of the two but also more rewarding. The main character is a woman who runs a railroad in the late 40s or early 50s.

- The Fountainhead is just under 700 pages. The story is about an architect who lives his life without compromise. (As a personal note: this book had a tremendous positive effect on me in my personal life as well as professionally. I always sort of thought I was alone in the world and the way I approached life until I read this book. I have been inspired to live my life to a very high standard ever since.)

Since not a lot of people know me I will let you know that I am a successful business owner living outside San Diego California. While I did not grow up in poverty, I am most certainly a self made man - building what I have and working hard to create opportunities for myself.

I have been married for almost 7 years. My wife and I have a very healthy, solid realtionship. We have one son who is 2 years old. I'd be happy to share other details if it matters.

Amen!!!!! You captured everything I wanted to say.

Ayn Rand is one of my favorite authors. I think I said this in another thread, but my job required me to read Atlas Shrugged, and it is probably the best book I have ever read........simply epic in nature with characters you literally consider family by the end.

I'd say the recent interest in Ayn Rand has to do with the movie that's coming out (which will be terrible), Bioshock (best game in the fucking world), and the gradual slip of our society into a very material one - something that Ayn Rand spoke very strongly about

I loved Atlas Shrugged. I'm all for the recent press!

Willravel · 10-23-2007, 04:44 PM

I know it was subtle, but I have a sneaking suspicion that roachboy doesn't like her work. I could be wrong.

ubertuber · 10-23-2007, 05:13 PM

What's the Bioshock/Rand connection you guys are referring to? I'm not a gamer and won't be any time soon, but I'm curious!

Redjake · 10-23-2007, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ubertuber

What's the Bioshock/Rand connection you guys are referring to? I'm not a gamer and won't be any time soon, but I'm curious!

Bioshock is about a fellow named Andrew Ryan (notice how similar that is to Ayn Rand) who built a city (called Rapture) underwater where him and fellow citizens could prosper while not being governed and mooched off of from society - I'm only 3 hours into the game, so forgive me if I watered that down too much

John Galt = Andrew Ryan
Galt's Gulch = Rapture

Mondak · 10-24-2007, 05:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProfessorMayhem

People do seem inherently unable to convey a quick synopsis of Rand's books. You usually get little more than vague descriptions which eventually end with "you just have to read it to understand."

I encounter these people fairly regularly. Some of us have taken to calling them "Randroids."

I see the issue as two-fold:

1) When you get down to it, Rand's entire schtick seems to revolve around her being an unattractive women with power and control issues.

and...

2) There must be some nefarious organization out there who's sole purpose is to put a copy of The Fountainhead into the hands of every 16 year old in America.

To your first point, being an Objectivist means that you don't ask someone to accept things on blind faith and instead encourage others to decide for themselves.

As far as your assessment of the "issue":

1) Throwing a personal insult out does not make for an effective argument, but may win you a laugh from the mindless horde.

2) I don't know if the organization is nefarious or not, but I donate to it and while it may not be its sole purpose, much of the money I donate goes to buying copies of The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged and supplying them to high schools throughout the country who request them.

A question are you a teacher / union member?

10-20-2007, 05:54 PM	#1 (permalink)
Reese Delicious	What's the deal with Ayn Rand..? In the whole 25 years of my life, I'd only barely heard about Ayn Rand, and might have talked about Objectivism for 5 minutes in school. For the last 3 or 4 months it's seems like I can't quit seeing something about her. First it was the video game Bioshock, then Randomhouse includes 4 of her books in the best 100 novels with all of them in the top 10.. Don't wanna get into the fact that 3 L ron Hubbard books are also in the same top 10.. There's also a thread on this forum that I didn't want to hijack. So, What's the deal? Is this just another one of those topics that just happened to fly under my radar for my whole life then suddenly I'm in tune with it, or has she had a surge of popularity.. I don't get it.. __________________ “It is better to be rich and healthy than poor and sick” - Dave Barry

10-20-2007, 06:10 PM	#3 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	Vast right wing conspiracy of course. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

10-20-2007, 06:18 PM	#4 (permalink)
ngdawg peekaboo Location: on the back, bitch	I've known, read Ayn Rand since high school, back in the stone ages...every once in a while, specially when politics is the big news, she pops up. Her political views came through in her writing(very extreme), so it's natural... Cool, Anthem made the list. It's such a small book and no one I talk to ever heard of it. Last edited by ngdawg; 10-20-2007 at 06:22 PM..

10-20-2007, 07:11 PM	#5 (permalink)
Sion Dumb all over...a little ugly on the side Location: In the room where the giant fire puffer works, and the torture never stops.	Rand's politics and philosophy (see below) have a certain attractiveness, especially to young and idealistic readers, which explains in part her continuing popularity. She was not, however, a particularly engaging author. Maybe it's due to her ethnicity, but I found her work dense and boring beyond belief, much like Dostoyevsky's. I managed to slog through about 50-75 pages of The Fountainhead before giving up. I could find no reason to care about her characters, therefore saw no reason to wade through the morass of her prose, in order to get to the philosophy or even see how the story came out. Perhaps her other works are different, but Fountainhead left such a bad taste in my mouth (so to speak) that I've had no inclination in the intervening 15 years to find out. from wikipedia: Ayn Rand (IPA: /ˈaɪn ˈrænd/, February 2 [O.S. January 20] 1905 – March 6, 1982), born Alisa Zinov'yevna Rosenbaum (Russian: Алиса Зиновьевна Розенбаум), was a Russian-born American novelist and philosopher,[1] known for creating a philosophy she named "Objectivism" and for writing the novels We the Living, The Fountainhead, Atlas Shrugged and the novella Anthem. Her influential and often controversial ideas have attracted both enthusiastic admiration and scathing denunciation. Rand's writing (both fiction and non-fiction) emphasizes the philosophic concepts of objective reality in metaphysics, reason in epistemology, and rational egoism in ethics. In politics she was a proponent of laissez-faire capitalism and a staunch defender of individual rights, believing that the sole function of a proper government is protection of individual rights (including property rights). She believed that individuals must choose their values and actions solely by reason, and that "Man — every man — is an end in himself, not the means to the ends of others." According to Rand, the individual "must exist for his own sake, neither sacrificing himself to others nor sacrificing others to himself. The pursuit of his own rational self-interest and of his own happiness is the highest moral purpose of his life." Rand decried the initiation of force and fraud, and held that government action should consist only in protecting citizens from criminal aggression (via the police) and foreign aggression (via the military) and in maintaining a system of courts to decide guilt or innocence and to objectively resolve disputes. Her politics are generally described as minarchist and libertarian, though she did not use the first term and disavowed any connection to the second.[2] Rand, a self-described hero-worshiper, stated in her book The Romantic Manifesto that the goal of her writing was "the projection of an ideal man." In reference to her philosophy, Objectivism, she said: "My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute." (Appendix to Atlas Shrugged) __________________ He's the best, of course, of all the worst. Some wrong been done, he done it first. -fz I jus' want ta thank you...falettinme...be mice elf...agin...

10-21-2007, 02:42 AM	#6 (permalink)
xepherys <3 TFP Location: 17TLH2445607250	Oddly, BioShock seems to have spawned some new Randian interest. The gamer-geek crowd is often fairly intelligent, and the comparison to Randian philosophy sparked a lot of interest. The publishers, too, likely caught wind of this and pressed a larger than normal number of copies, which the bookstores then put on display. I've found recently that media has played a large role in driving the sale of older books quite a bit lately. It's interesting... __________________ The prospect of achieving a peace agreement with the extremist group of MILF is almost impossible... -- Emmanuel Pinol, Governor of Cotobato My Homepage

10-20-2007, 05:57 PM	#2 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Hard to say, really. Very good question.

10-21-2007, 05:15 AM	#7 (permalink)
flat5 Very Insignificant Pawn Location: Amsterdam, NL	I enjoyed "The Fountainhead" VERY much. (so did Gerry Mulligan and Sandy Dennis)

10-21-2007, 08:50 AM	#8 (permalink)
MSD The sky calls to us ... Super Moderator Location: CT	I forget who said it, but I think it was put best in the comment "Objectivism is a philosophy that's highly appealing to those who were born on third base and think they hit a triple." Bioshock and the alleged Atlas Shrugged movie have kicked up some interest lately, but it's one of those things that you probably just never paid attention to in the past.

10-21-2007, 09:29 AM	#9 (permalink)
blahblah454 Let's put a smile on that face Location: On the road...	I have never even heard of her. And after reading this thread I really don't have any desire to further my understanding... except perhaps to play Bioshock!

10-21-2007, 10:00 AM	#10 (permalink)
xepherys <3 TFP Location: 17TLH2445607250	While I can't comment on her books, Randian Objectivism is certainly an interesting philosophy. __________________ The prospect of achieving a peace agreement with the extremist group of MILF is almost impossible... -- Emmanuel Pinol, Governor of Cotobato My Homepage

10-21-2007, 05:00 PM	#11 (permalink)
Ourcrazymodern? still, wondering. Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge	Ayn Rand flew among us and enjoyed her stay, I think. Many hours are not spent in vain. __________________ BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

10-22-2007, 01:29 PM	#13 (permalink)
Esoteric Tired Location: Florida	I had only heard about this woman and Atlas Shrugged after playing BioShock because I found out there were some references to the book. Though I can say it has sort of piqued my interest in her books and may try to read them sometime in the near future. BioShock was an excellent game too.

10-22-2007, 06:40 PM	#14 (permalink)
squeeeb part of the problem Location: hic et ubique	ayn rand rocks. the fountainhead was a kick ass book, better than anthem, i thought. they made it into a movie with gregory peck, i think. just google "howard roark" to see all the stuff that's been spawned by the book. the simpsons alluded to her in the fourth season, with the "ayn rand school for tots" which was funny cause the school was all stoic and weird... an obscure bit of pop culture, Matt Ruff's book Sewer, Gas and Electric has a talking ayn rand lamp, i'm sure her or her books have shown up other places. so, she is mentioned a lot, at least if you are looking for her, i guess...i liked her stuff... __________________ onward to mayhem!

10-23-2007, 05:58 AM	#15 (permalink)
Ourcrazymodern? still, wondering. Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge	Damnit, now I need to go back and re-read the entire collection! It drove me crazy the first time. (Neglect to remember what a short drive that probably was, I beg you.) If all the movers and shakers willfully extricated themselves from the world, the rest of us would be screwed. Offensive? I think so, but it strikes me as true nonetheless __________________ BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

10-23-2007, 07:55 AM	#17 (permalink)
squeeeb part of the problem Location: hic et ubique	yeah, i forgot about the south park episode... __________________ onward to mayhem!

10-23-2007, 08:54 AM	#18 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	outside of the cadere of self-important bourgeois teenage boys who seem to be her main demographic, the popularity of ayn rand is a total mystery to me. her "philosophy" is basically just a simplistic restatement of a basic capitalist rationality. stylistically, she is among the worst writers i have ever read. i would rather drive tacks into my forehead than read her work again, ever. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

10-23-2007, 10:42 AM	#19 (permalink)
Mondak Industrialist Location: Southern California	First - the question first asked: why the sudden interest in Ayn Rand? A couple reasons that I am aware of: Rand wrote the crown jewel of her work, Atlas Shrugged 50 years ago this month. There has been a good deal of celebration and recognition around that anniversary. You also had the media covering Alan Greenspan's new book, The Age of Turbulence: Adventures in a New World earlier this month. Greenspan was a friend of Ayn Rand before she died and lists her often as inspiration, teacher and ongoing guide even after her death. There is a very long list of successful people who list her in a similar fashion even if they did not know her. I agree that there is a lot of attention around her lately. In addition to the few sightings that are listed above, Angelina Jolie has been cast as Dagney Taggart, the heroine of Atlas Shrugged. It is due in 2008 or 2009. I suspect if you are seeing it a lot now, it is going to be a lot more prevalent in the coming months / years. (NOTE: I have no idea how you can do the book as a movie without missing the point, however if the only result is that lots of other people decide to read the book for themselves, then that is great) Second - Since others have offered their opinions on Rand above, I will offer mine. Ayn Rand is the single most influential author I have ever read. As opposed to the suggested audience listed above, I first read her when I was 30. The characters in The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged are amazing. Even though the books are written more than 50 years ago, I see these very same people every day throughout life. The books are so very well written with a plot that is quite compelling and thought provoking. I would speak to my wife for hours about what I had read that day while I was reading the books. The magic in the books is what I realized about myself and who I wanted to be while reading a fictional story. The most wonderful compliment she gave me though was that I didn't change my views on things as a result of reading the books. The difference is that I am so much better at expressing it. The books are a challenge make no mistake. This is not some vapid romance story or pure entertainment novel. Rand's argument on man as a hero is well thought out and developed. She uses the characters (intensely in Atlas Shrugged, somewhat more subtly in The Fountainhead) to deliver that argument. If a reader just tries to blow through the book without truly processing what is being said, I can see it being a fairly unsatisfactory experience. Each point in the argument is submitted to the reader to weigh before moving on to the next point that may be related or built upon. The construction and order that she presents the information is key to its support - much like a building has to start with the foundation. The support the book delivers for her philosophy is anything but simple. It is solid, elegant and inspirational if a reader takes the time to understand it. If someone has a preconceived notion about the book, it's purpose and the argument it delivers, I am sure it is easier to read it in such a way that skips / skims over parts of the book that end up causing cognitive dissonance (such as discussions of the moral base of a self interested person). It would be a wonderful challenge to read the book and instead of dismiss what you don't like or what makes you uncomfortable, understand exactly what your argument against it is what premises your argument is based upon. A final thought: I would be willing to buy and send two separate TFP members a copy of The Fountainhead or Atlas Shrugged (one to each) if they really wanted to read them. Please don't disrespect the offer and ask for them if you are not really going to read them. - Atlas Shrugged is over 1100 pages and more challenging of the two but also more rewarding. The main character is a woman who runs a railroad in the late 40s or early 50s. - The Fountainhead is just under 700 pages. The story is about an architect who lives his life without compromise. (As a personal note: this book had a tremendous positive effect on me in my personal life as well as professionally. I always sort of thought I was alone in the world and the way I approached life until I read this book. I have been inspired to live my life to a very high standard ever since.) Since not a lot of people know me I will let you know that I am a successful business owner living outside San Diego California. While I did not grow up in poverty, I am most certainly a self made man - building what I have and working hard to create opportunities for myself. I have been married for almost 7 years. My wife and I have a very healthy, solid realtionship. We have one son who is 2 years old. I'd be happy to share other details if it matters. __________________ All truth passes through three stages: First it is ridiculed Second, it is violently opposed and Third, it is accepted as self-evident. ARTHUR SCHOPENHAUER (1788-1860)

10-23-2007, 12:56 PM	#20 (permalink)
ProfessorMayhem Upright Location: Austin, TX	People do seem inherently unable to convey a quick synopsis of Rand's books. You usually get little more than vague descriptions which eventually end with "you just have to read it to understand." I encounter these people fairly regularly. Some of us have taken to calling them "Randroids." I see the issue as two-fold: 1) When you get down to it, Rand's entire schtick seems to revolve around her being an unattractive women with power and control issues. and... 2) There must be some nefarious organization out there who's sole purpose is to put a copy of The Fountainhead into the hands of every 16 year old in America.

10-23-2007, 01:09 PM	#21 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	Mondak - Excellent post. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

10-23-2007, 04:44 PM	#23 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	I know it was subtle, but I have a sneaking suspicion that roachboy doesn't like her work. I could be wrong.

10-23-2007, 05:13 PM	#24 (permalink)
ubertuber spudly Location: Ellay	What's the Bioshock/Rand connection you guys are referring to? I'm not a gamer and won't be any time soon, but I'm curious! __________________ Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam