Frosstbyte

I'm just curious, will. Assuming that it's an effect method of preventing future crime, how do you propose to set up an efficient and economical system for treating all of the violent criminals? I mean, it's certainly a laudable effort to want to rehabilitate violent criminals, but we're talking about a lot of money and a lot of time to do years of psychological rehab on the millions of violent offenders in this country. Where is that all going to come from?

Willravel

I went to college. This is all common knowledge. Things like how common untreatable people are and how prevention works are readily available in textbooks. As for recidivism, it's as plain as the nose on your face, I mean jesus why do you think offenders offend again after being in prison? Prison doesn't rehabilitate. Duh.
I recognize that any real change in the criminal justice system will take time. Things like this simply can't change over night. The thing, though, is that as long as we have the current system, we'll not really see any drop off in recidivism, or cons committing crimes. The financing is there for real rehabilitation (or it will be when Hillary comes into office and taxes go up and the troops slowly start coming home). Dems love social programs, and social programs are the only way to get this done. Privatization has massively failed at the job of rehabilitation.

The first step absolutely has to be programs for children to make sure they learn empathy, emotion management, and problem solving. These methods which have been proven to greatly reduce criminality in children would be the key to ensuring that the rates of criminals start to drop off quickly as years pass. I don't have access to the projections, so I can't say how quickly things would change, but I would expect that things would start improving in a few years.

If one were to combine that even with rather weak systems in prisons that aren't that expensive, say an additional 1 shrink per every 100 cons, I would still expect to see at least some improvement. I'm not a doctor of psychology, but I suspect that there are little tweaks that can be done in the incarceration method to improve rehabilitation.

JohnBua

Fair question. So let me say that I am talking about the hospitalisation of a person, using a deadly weapon, rape, child molestation.

And I have lobbied to keep a brother in law in jail as he was a violent criminal. Thats as close to family as I can get.

Sion

hey, I went to college too, but somehow I missed learning all the "common knowledge" that you seem to think is so prevalent. I guess I should have taken "Wildly Useless Generalizations 101" as one of my electives.

and yet you feel qualified to spout off about the potential efficacity of a psychologically based rehabilitation system.


ok, enough sarcasm. the point you seem to be missing here will, is that, much like an alcoholic or drug addict, a convict must WANT to change for any system of rehabilitation to have any real and lasting effect. I don't think you are going to find too many that truly want to change their behavior.

now, I totally agree with your premise that our penal system is in dire need of overhaul. and a focus on rehabilitation should be an integral part of that overhaul. however, I think you're painting too rosy a picture of how well rehabilitation would work. my personal opinion is that I'd consider it an incredible feat if you were able to successfully rehabilitate 30% of all violent inmates. and in the case of sexually violent offenders, anything over 10% would be amazing.


oh, and on a side note, if you honestly think Hillary and the Democrats are going to save the day on this (or any other) issue, then you are as naive as a newborn babe. the Democrats are as corrupt and self-serving as the Republicans. they're politicians, after all. there isn't even one of them on the national level that I'd trust as far as I can throw him or her.

__________________
He's the best, of course, of all the worst.
Some wrong been done, he done it first. -fz

I jus' want ta thank you...falettinme...be mice elf...agin...

Baraka_Guru

I wouldn't be too sure about this. Many violent offenders are also abuse victims who act irrationally as a result of trauma. Others are the result of mental disorders. If you "truly" found out what they wanted, you might find many of them would like to change.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Willravel

Did your school offer criminal psychology? Abnormal psychology? That's really all I was drawing from.
Sometimes it's a burden being really smart and educated. But you've got to keep pushing on, overcoming those who use sarcasm instead of reason against you, something you immediately recognize as a fallacious.

We done with the sarcasm game now?
I'm glad to read that. I feel like a complete asshat being sarcastic, and it really does nothing for the discussion and thus the thread.
Many of them don't know they want to change, and some actually do want to change. If you don't believe me, go down to your local prison and speak to some of them. It's a lot better than some citation off the internet, really. A friend of mine from college used to volunteer at a prison (trying to get licensed), and he had more than a few stories.
According to wiki (not sure how reliable), as of 2006 a record 7 million people were behind bars, on probation or on parole. Let's say you can only rehabilitate 25%. That's 1,750,000 people, or the entire population of Philadelphia and the surrounding areas. It's also about 1 out of every 171 people in the US.

The main focus should absolutely be on prevention, though. The stuff about prisons now is just a matter of breaking the stranglehold of the prison industry, which is corrupt and broken. It's about a last ditch effort to help the people already trapped in the system. I repeat, the focus should be on prevention of crime and criminality.
A snowball's chance in hell (which I'm well aware of) is better than a government under Bush. Bill Clinton actually managed to start several successful social programs.

Sion

I've only two things more to add.

one is that sarcasm DOES have it's uses. there really is no more effective way to communicate "you're talking out of your ass" than with some biting sarcasm. what Cynthetiq and I were trying to do with our sarcasm is get you to cite something other than "common knowledge" or "I went to college" to back up these things you claim as facts.

second, I took a look at your profile and see that you are 24. you still have the idealism of youth in you. and that's great...I hope you can sustain it for a long time. I, on the other hand, have developed the skepticism and cynicism that comes with middle age. I've seen too many "great ideas" come and go in my 41 years to get too excited about the next "great idea". And the reason that most of these ideas end up in the crapper, imho, is that most people are too stupid and/or selfish and/or impatient to let them work. If it doesn't provide them with an immediate gratification that meets or exceeds their expectations, they refuse to put forth the energy required to get the job done. that's just human nature and it's not about to change. sorry to burst your bubble.

__________________
He's the best, of course, of all the worst.
Some wrong been done, he done it first. -fz

I jus' want ta thank you...falettinme...be mice elf...agin...

Willravel

What facts, specifically, would you like cited? I'll do my best.
My bubble is strong, so strong in fact that ageism doesn't phase me at all anymore. Why doesn't ageism phase me, you may wonder. I've always had older friends? Maybe. All of my coworkers are older than me? Sure. The fact is that age is not the same as wisdom, despite what people over 35 may say. It also has a lot to do with the fact that I've found that idealism spreads like wildfire, regardless of age. How old do you suppose members like Pan and Host are? How about roachboy or DC_Dux? I ask this because I've found them to all be very open to idealism. They don't blindly walk into it, of course, but the spark is there and it's there in spades (I name TFP members because naming people I know probably wouldn't mean anything to you). I don't think any of them is 24.

Baraka_Guru

Isn't it just a sloppy form of irony?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

analog

Only if you're Alanis Morissette.

Ustwo

Ah wait till you turn the corner my boy. You have six more years to enjoy having a heart, but we know what happens after that.

Not everyone finds wisdom with age of course, but I think you have a chance, you are smarter then average but way to quick to embrace that which supports your current beliefs.

Soon with the tempering of time, we shall rule TFP like father and son.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Willravel

I found the song to be ironic because nothing she named was actually ironic. To quote Bender: "That's not ironic, it's just mean!"
... or just before you die you become an optimist, a la Darth.

But I digest, what is the point of having a juvenile court if we're willing to punish children like adults?

snowy

Thank you, Peter Griffin...

__________________
If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

Willravel

I associate Star Wars with Family Guy Star Wars now as a reflex. I can't help it!

Sion

this is true. and I didnt claim any wisdom, just a lot hard-earned experience. and from that experience, I've learned to doubt and mistrust most people. and especially to mistrust large institutional groups of people (government, religion, political parties, etc.)

I think you'll find as you grow older, will, that most people only have their own interests at heart, usually not their best interests, but rather their wants and desires, however sordid they may be. and because of this, they often hurt others, as well as themselves, not only biting the hand that feeds them, but even that which is trying to help them. and it's because of this that I think penal rehabilitation is doomed to, at best, a very low rate of success.

__________________
He's the best, of course, of all the worst.
Some wrong been done, he done it first. -fz

I jus' want ta thank you...falettinme...be mice elf...agin...

Cynthetiq

HEAR! HEAR!!!

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Willravel

I've got plenty of cynicism, but I don't let it defeat me. That's hardly the issue, though.
So because you were born 17 years before me you know how I'll become when I'm older? That's pretty weak. I've heard the same thing about my optimism since I was a boy. Not only do I show no signs of changing, but my optimism has improved as I've been able to develop more solutions to problems. As someone who works for a non-profit that aids the homeless and less fortunate, working with people who's age dwarfs your own, I can tell you that just because some people become bitter and give up hardly means I will. Not to compare myself to great people, but what would you have said to the Rev. Dr. King? He was about 25 when he helped to organize the Montgomery Bus Boycott. Too bad he was wasting his time.

Time to get back on to the subject at hand.

Nimetic

On a lighter note. Imagine if they'd prosecuted him as a dog.

That'd lead to a fast efficient judgment.

Sion

Firstly, I never said I know how you'll be, but rather "I think you'll find". Please don't put words in my mouth, it's a rather weak debate tactic, regardless of the topic; which leads me to my next point. I also never said I was bitter. I am not. I'm a realist. And while I support your optimism and idealism, I was attempting to inject a bit of reality into the discussion. That doesn't make mean I'm bitter.

Optimism and idealsim are generally fine traits to have. Many great achievers throughout history became such by having these traits in abundance (the aforementioned Dr. King is one such example).But, optimism and idealism must be tempered with realism for true greatness to be achieved. There have been many spectacular failures throughout history (Preston Tucker comes to mind) because of a lack of realistic expectations.

You claim to be a problem solver. That's also a good trait to have. And if success is to be achieved in an endeavor of such magnitude as total reformation of the American penal system, there are many problems which will need to be solved. Not the least of which is how to overcome people's innate selfishness and greed, not only on the idividual level, but also on the institutional level. Let's face facts here, you're talking about the changing of millions of mindsets. Literally, millions upon millions. Not only that of many (most?) of the prisoners themselves, but also that of many (most?) of the people who work within the penal system, as well as that of the judges and lawmakers who control the system, and finally that of the voters who put those people in office.

That's a monumental undertaking. Again, it is this nearly vertical uphill battle that is why I predict such a low probability of success.


Finally, in reference to Dr. King, what did he get for all his efforts? He got murdered, which goes to show just how far some people will go to protect their ways of thinking. And while much success was achieved and many laws changed, the fact of the matter is that there is STILL, 40 years later, plenty of racism in this country. So, while racism is slowly receeding in this country, and I reckon that Dr. King would consider his martyrdom to the cause worthwhile, this again goes to show what an difficult road lies in front of those who would change the system.

So, I'll leave you with this thought. If you are working in some way towards these laudable goals, I wish you much luck and success. Just don't expect to live long enough to see even half of these goals attained.

__________________
He's the best, of course, of all the worst.
Some wrong been done, he done it first. -fz

I jus' want ta thank you...falettinme...be mice elf...agin...

Willravel

Dr. King changed millions of mindsets, and I suspect that while he wouldn't like the fact he was assassinated, he wouldn't have changed any of his revolutionary actions to avoid it. Also, when you consider who in our history has been assassinated, he's among the ranks of some of the most important people in history.

I only hope that I can do something a fraction as revolutionary.

Ustwo

And if these men kill again will you apologize to their victims family in person?

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Willravel

Absolutely not, just as I imagine you don't apologize for the deaths that result from the prison industrial complex. If the whole process doesn't work, then at least we tried something. It's better than sitting back and allowing a corrupt system to continue.