flat5

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/12/us...th&oref=slogin

October 12, 2007
Boy, 14, Seized in Plot to Open Fire at School
By JON HURDLE and IAN URBINA

PLYMOUTH MEETING, Pa., Oct. 11 — A 14-year-old boy was arrested Wednesday night after the police received a tip that he was plotting a shooting spree at a high school in this northern suburb of Philadelphia, the authorities said.

The police said that the boy had been planning a “Columbine style” attack on students at Plymouth Whitemarsh High School and that in searching his home, they had found a 9-millimeter assault rifle, dozens of authentic-looking BB and air guns, and seven hand grenades he was making, four of which were operational.

At a news conference Thursday, the Montgomery County district attorney, Bruce L. Castor Jr., stood before a table that held the seized weaponry, which looked daunting even though most of it was air-powered imitations.

The genuine assault rifle, for which no ammunition was found in the home, was bought legally at a gun show by the boy’s mother, the police said. But she bought it for her son, Mr. Castor said, adding that as a result his office was still deciding what charges to file against her, if any.

The boy, whose name was withheld because he is a minor, attended the middle school associated with Plymouth Whitemarsh until 18 months ago, when his parents began schooling him at home because he was being bullied by other students, the police said. He tried to recruit another onetime student at the school to join him in the attack, they said, and that former student alerted the police.

Officers searched the family’s house with the consent of the boy’s parents and, the authorities said, found notebooks detailing violent acts, an Army handbook on counterinsurgency operations and a DVD entitled “Game Over in Littleton,” a documentary on the 1999 rampage in which two students at Columbine High School in Colorado shot to death 12 schoolmates and a teacher before committing suicide.

Mr. Castor said he did not believe an attack had been imminent.

“It could have simply been big talking,” he said, “by a kid who thought that he was bullied previously, and he was going to exact his revenge.”

Mr. Castor said he was considering whether to charge the boy as an adult. For now, he has been charged as a juvenile with various offenses including criminal attempt and possession of a criminal instrument, said Joseph Lawrence, deputy chief of the Plymouth Township Police Department. Mr. Lawrence declined to elaborate on the charges.

Jon Hurdle reported from Plymouth Meeting, and Ian Urbina from Washington.
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Why does the US gov. have the option to prosecute a 14yo as an adult?

Killing people is a serious crime...or planning to.
But the purp is a 14 year old.

Is this good law practice or politically motivated? or what?

The kid needs a repair job on his head.
Putting this kid in an environment such as prison will only increase his deviant skills.

Shauk

Not to threadjack, but I'm convinced the media is creating monsters.

for every bad "new" type of crime that they report, copycats spring up, it's viral. No, it doesn't turn everyone into raving lunatics, but do you honestly think this kid would have been the 1st of his kind had there been no columbine and copycats after that so heavily shown in the media?

Kids shouldn't be watching the news, it's not fair and balanced at all when they don't impart any other kind of message other than "the world sucks, and this is how" "oh by the way, these kids were bullied, this is how they chose to get back"

14 year old thinks "hrmmmmmmmmmm!"


end threadjack

and no, I don't think the government should be trying to prosecute him as an adult, I think they need to have the kids who picked on him brought up on psychological abuse.

this shit it getting out of hand. "kids will be kids" means nothing anymore.

Schools are a joke. what happened to learning the basics. making friends, and moving on?

I remember getting kicked in the stomach by some kid like 4 grades higher than me because I was new at one school, no other reason. I kicked his ass, I didn't shoot him. what the hell ><

stupid people.

The_Jazz

US government? Huh?

Did you read your own article? This has nothing to do with the Federal government. It's a local government.

If you're trying to expand the argument into why LOCAL and STATE governments will sometimes try minors as adults it is because there are certain crimes that serious enough to make an exception for, especially if the kid is a habitual violent offender.

You'll also notice that adult charges have not been filed at this point, so this case isn't the best example to use, at least at this point.

I'm really confused as to exactly what point you're trying to make since, at the very least, you've done a poor job of picking an example to illustrate whatever point it is.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

flat5

My choice of words were imprecise. I knew that when I wrote the post.
I don't know law or the best way to phrase my concern. I also know the DA is only considering weather to try the kid as an adult.

My question still stands. Why under the law is it possible for a DA to try a 14 year old as an adult? It just seems wrong to me. Where do you draw the line?

Bill O'Rights

In my mind...this is why.
http://www.omaha.com/index.php?u_pag...u_sid=10152553

14 year old gang banger blows away a 6 year old little girl. Why shouldn't he be tried as an adult? It just seems right to me.

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

Cynthetiq

The title is a complete misnomer. The US has not tried any child as an adult that I can find. Only local and state courts apply the standard.
As I understand it, at 18 you get to clear off your record and start new. Prior to 18 you have a juvenile record. At 18 you are an adult and now starts your adult record, your juvenile record is sealed and not allowed to be opened except for federal investigation but not admissable as any evidence of prior crime. Being tried as adult removes the ability for the person to hide their crime in juvenile records that get sealed when one turns 18.

Secondly, the juvenile courts don't generally have the same type of punishments as adult courts. Juveniles found to be delniquent, usually has some sort of punishment and rehabilitation, example probation and community service/action. Generally there is no incarceration. Adults trials have more opportunity to have incarceration as an option.

As I understand it also, being tried as an adult doesn't imply that you go to adult prison. The correlation of the two is absurd since what good would it do to have a 14 yr old in a PMITA prison? How well can an adult prison take care of the needs of a 14 yr old? From a logic standpoint wouldn't any lawyer be able to consider a 14 yr old in an adult prison cruel and unusual punishment?

I'm in the process of reading and understanding this paper, Should Juvenile Offenders Be Tried As Adults? A Developmental Perspective on Changing Legal Policies by Laurence Steinberg

Right now it appears that the line is drawn at the TYPE of crime, so drug offenses and crimes relating in death of a citizen attract the "tried as an adult" consequence.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

The_Jazz

OK, let's assume that you're now leaving the US government out of this completely since they have absolutely nothing to do with this case (I make this caveat because that's the very first question in the OP).

Local governments get to set their own laws. It is the nature of the American system of government. That means that there is no one answer, although Cynthetiq pointed out the one that covers the vast majority of the answers.

There is a case in Loudon County, TN where a 15-year old brought a gun to a school and shot 3 people, killing an assistant prinicpal. He was tried as an adult because of the seriousness of the crime, but there was never doubt of guilt or innocence. If he were tried in juvenille court, he could only be kept incarcerated until he turned 21, and he would never have to report that he has a felony conviction. He was tried as an adult because it allowed him to be locked up longer.

Sometimes the crime is serious enough that the youthful criminal needs a longer sentence than is available in the juvenille court system. Lee Boyd Malvo, one of the Washington snipers, immediately springs to mind. He was 17 when he either shot or helped to shoot random people. He needs to spend more than 4 years in prison.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

flat5

So because juvenile law can not be changed try a kid under adult law. and if you don't like the way he looks charge him with something more serious.

I feel sick...

Cynthetiq

The protections the juvenile courts have for the juvenile are fundamental in keeping the majority of the juveniles well and good until their adult lives and can be functioning and contributing adults in society.

Changing juvenile law to encompass them into adult law seems to be the worse thing to do as such then what is to keep the child from being tried as an adult for grant theft auto or grand larceny? The standards for adults would have to be the same for juveniles in what you are suggesting.

It seems to be appropriate to me that for selected crimes which have slowly become defined and added. It isn't like the DA just wakes up and says "I'd like to try this juvenile as an adult." No there is a process for transferring from the juvenile court system to the adult court system since the adult system has no jurisdiction over juveniles. This means that the transferrence isn't as you say, "you don't like the way he looks" implies that there could be simple abuse by one individual. No there is still the proper judicial system that is followed for due process. This also means that the defendant's lawyer can object and try to keep the case within the juvenile system.

You feel sick because someone is attempting to kill someone that they shouldn't be tried as an adult? Do you really want to give that individual the benefit of the doubt as a juvenile and have no recourse of punishment after you remove that reasonable doubt?

Again, trying someone in a court doesn't immediately apply consequence and penalty. A judge gets to decide that and can apply compassion and humanity as needed.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Willravel

If they can prosecute kids as adults, they should let them vote. Obviously these kids warrant adult justice, therefore they're adults. Frankly, children should be able to vote anyway as they have to pay sales taxes and income taxes (if they're over 15). This country was started for, among other things, taxation without representation.

The government needs to make up it's mind. Are kids people or not?

flat5

..

Ustwo

Well I knew this was comming.

Its rather obvious why the left wants children to vote.

Because a few heinous crimes are so horrific that they get tried as an adult does not mean we need more people living off their parents with no clue about the economy voting. We have college kids for that.

__________________
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Bill O'Rights

You're taking a fork in the road, that leads to a dead end. Are kids people? Of course they are. That's just silly. Now...are kids "adults", or not?
Well...when a 14 year old "kid", that probably should be playing Little League Baseball, picks up a 9mm and blows away a 1st grader, while in the process of attempting to kill 2 teenage girls? That 14 year old has, in my opinion, forfeited his right to the rest of his childhood.

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

Cynthetiq

are you serious in that taxation without representation assertion? if so then you figure that we must have representation for tourists too since they too pay these taxes with no chance of refund like the Global Tax Refund ... I'm sorry that's an absurd assertion since the parents are the guardians and responsible representative for the children. This is why they are trying to change laws to make the parents responsible for the child's behavoir and their contribution to their behavior. The OP situation the mother was charged with unlawful transfer of a fiream, possession of a firearm by a minor, corruption of a minor, endangering the welfare of a child and two counts of reckless endangerment.

So you'd also like for children to be able to enter into binding contracts before 18...the idea and assertion are you making is absurd at best.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Mojo_PeiPei

They also factor in emotional factors and in a sense maturity. Thats why a six year old would never be tried as an adult, the child has no concept of the actions that were committed.

A 15 year old who killed somebody, unless suffering from severe mental trauma (which might be a given noting a 15 year does something heinous) or mental retardation, would full well know that murdering someone is wrong and has consequences.

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Willravel

Most people who vote have no clue about the economy.
He should be imprisoned, sure, but tried as an adult? The reason we have separations for adults and children is simple: children are still developing. The 14 year old boy is not the same person as the 30 year old man. He has not yet developed his full understandings of right and wrong to be a part of his perception of the world.
Parents aren't given two votes, so when it comes to the right to vote, they are not a representative for the children. Would I like children to be able to enter into a contract? They are at birth. As citizens, they have as a sort, entered into a contract with the US government that they'll pay taxes and not break the law, go to school and obey curfew. Yet we have a shitty school system and we have kids that are arbitrarily charged as adults. That would be less likely to happen if people under the age of 18 could vote.

BTW, calling something absurd without representing why it's absurd is wasting everyone's time.

Cynthetiq

will do you have any knowledge of the difference between the juvenile courts and the adult courts?

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Willravel

Yes. Still doesn't stop the US government from confusing the two.

snowy

Juveniles can be charged as adults in Oregon, because the voters approved Measure 11. Measure 11 "established mandatory minimum sentences for certain violent felonies, requiring adult trials and sentencing for those felonies for defendants over age 15" (Wikipedia).

So even in Oregon, you couldn't charge this 14-year-old as an adult.

A few years after Measure 11 passed, Kip Kinkel killed his parents, and then went on a shooting spree at Thurston High School in Springfield, OR, killing two of his schoolmates and wounding 20 more. Kinkel plead guilty to murder and attempted murder. Kinkel received a total of 111 years in prison during his sentencing, without the possibility of parole.

Kinkel, as a minor, was sent to MacLaren Youth Correctional Facility to serve the first part of his sentence. There, he was allowed to complete his high school diploma. He stayed at MacLaren until June 2007. Just short of his 25th birthday, Kinkel was transferred to the Oregon State Correctional Institution in Salem, where he will serve out the remainder of his sentence.

In Oregon, the system works (at least in this regard). Even if juveniles between 15-18 commit serious felonies and are convicted as adults, they serve the first part of their sentence in a juvenile facility for serious offenders.

Kinkel is currently trying to get a new trial on the grounds that he has been diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia and his lawyers failed to plead insanity, though he was exhibiting signs of paranoid schizophrenia at the time of the crime. We'll see how this all plays out.

The U.S. is made up of 50 different states, all with different laws regarding the sentencing of juveniles, so it's hard for me to comment on the case in the OP. Given that the accused is 14, I would hope that he would receive a sentence similar to Kinkel's--an adult sentence with ages 14-25 served in a juvenile facility.

__________________
If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

Cynthetiq

Can you please point out where the US FEDERAL government is confusing the two?

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Willravel

So, in your mind, when someone says "US government", they always mean "federal government". Interesting. Did you know that states, counties, and even cities have government? So when I say "US government", I could mean federal, state, county, or city.

Sion

I call bullshit on this assertion. if, as a 14 year old, a child doesn't know right from wrong...then he/she either has a severe mental/emotional deficiency or his/her parents have done a fantastically bad job.

I have a 13 year old daughter. she KNOWS right from wrong.


my thought on the matter is this: let the punishement fit the crime. commit an adult crime...get punished as an adult. simple.

__________________
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Some wrong been done, he done it first. -fz

I jus' want ta thank you...falettinme...be mice elf...agin...

dksuddeth

Most people who vote have no clue about alot of things.

This is exactly what's wrong with the leftist socialist viewpoint. The constant 'we get our rights and priviledges from the government' crap and 'only government can tell us what's right and what's wrong'....at least when a socialist democrat is in power. 180 degrees from what America was supposed to be about.

Is the city of san jose government, the US government?

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Cynthetiq

Yes, there is a distinction of them for me. You don't want my community board dictating how life should be in the rest of New York State. So you don't care about a difference between powers of States versus Federal? City versus State? As far as you are concerned they are all the same.

Your interchangeable use of them blurs the differences, a quite ignorant opinion for someone that I had thought was quite well versed. If you were to suggest "Government" as being that assertion, I'd agree with you, but since you are willing to put US in front of it but still allow it to encompass City, I'm not on the same page with you.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Willravel

Then they should be allowed to vote.
It's a good thing we don't have an IQ test before people vote. This supports the idea that kids should be able to vote.
What is it with you and socialism? I'm telling people that the government is wrong and that children should have the right to vote and somehow it's me allowing the government to dictate rights to me. Think about that 180 degree interpretation.
It is a part of the US government, for all intents and purposes. It's not independent from the US government and it's not a member of any other government.

US government is a general classification. If you want to get more specific, using descriptive terms like federal or state, or even country or city can be used. My dog and I are both mammals. He's a canine and I'm homo sapiens, but we're still both mammals.

roachboy

i find it difficult not to see in the state and local level--o how to put this---poking holes in the separation of juvenile from adult an index of much wider anxieties about control mostly. so they're symptoms of wider ideological incoherences. they make most sense to me if you move away from the situation itself and fit it into a bigger context.

let's play this game for a second then, shall we?

this nonsense from plymouth meeting groups a kid mouthing off about creating mayhem with weapons under the Big Hysteria-Management Category of the moment: "terrorism"...which is about anxiety concerning the instrusion of arbitrary violence into a "reality" understood as otherwise predictable, controllable.

school shootings more generally--instances of arbitrary violence.

sentencing guideline shifts--simple-minded responses to a percieved surging up of the arbitrary.

it's as if reality was as you see it on television--a collection of objects---as if objects were knowable because they were endowed with essences---so things are always what they are, and we operate in a relation to the world that is basically the same as sitting on a lazee-boy watching tv "news"---
so politics is the simple arrangement of objects--multiplicity of viewpoints simply a function of a voice-over, never affecting the reality of the world, which is things and their arrangement.

so *anything* that fucks with the arrangement in an unexpected manner is arbitrary in the same way all the time no matter the situation.

the funny thing is that these sentence guidline shifts are conservative-driven measures for the most part, and so operate within the logic of the conservative view of the state---support for those dimensions of state function which are about repression, opposition to state functions that involve the redistribution of wealth and everything that follows from it.

from this you can see the one-dimensionality of conservative discourse about the state--they are dependent on its repressive functions to control for arbitrariness (which is itself circular, a function of the preference for a simple world that underpins conservatism--a preference for a pretty arrangement of surfaces to thinking in any depth about much of anything...too complicated, makes you worry--conservative politics are therapeutic, but it's a petit bourgeois therapy---on the order of prayer: "O Mister State...Mister State....Please Come Kill What Freaks Us Out and Protect Us from Complexity Now and at the Hour of Our Death. Amen.")

and in order to not have to face even the complexity of their own motives, you get this bizarre-o tendency to projection--so "dependency" gets talked about in the context of transfers of wealth to the poor. THEY are dependent, while WE are these free-floating atoms...heroic individuals until a Threat comes, at which point we rally round the Flag and hope for a Pretty Spectacle of the Assertion of Control. shock and awe on the big scale, sending a 14 year old to prison for life on a smaller scale.

and since the 14 year old is always Other, always not-you, it is obvious that these sentencing guidelines are theatrical, that the trial theater, and that the effect is the reassurance of television viewers that threats to the order of Things are disappeared.

this is more about what i see this kind of phenomenon as doing than a position concerning whether i support or oppose sentence guidline shifts in themselves, btw.
i tend to see these as a bad idea, but the arguments for this run in a different direction than the above. just saying.

__________________
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spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

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Sion

so, you'd like to see Hannah Montana as President then?

and of course, if they should be allowed to vote, then they should also be allowed to drive, smoke, drink and have sex too, right?

__________________
He's the best, of course, of all the worst.
Some wrong been done, he done it first. -fz

I jus' want ta thank you...falettinme...be mice elf...agin...

Willravel

You can't crash a voting booth, become intoxicated for voting libertarian, or get pregnant voting along with your favorite pundit.

Bill O'Rights

No, but I would posit that the consequences could be equaly, if not more, disasterous.

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

Ustwo

Does anyone wonder why the more left someone is the more they want children and convicts to vote?

If anything the voting age is too young. You need to experience life before you can make any judgments on how to proceed. Todays 18 year old often hasn't even had a job these days, and wont' until after he graduates college at 22 on the 5 year plan.

In the past that was going to work and marriage age, now its just part of the wests extended childhood.

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Willravel

More disastrous than voting in Bush? I can't really imagine that.

And thank you, Ustwo, for demonstrating that you only want a few people to vote. Perhaps only people over the age of 55? Or maybe only people who have 4 years of college or more? Maybe just the rich?

The_Jazz

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

Ustwo

Post #10 if you were really asking a question

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

analog

Because there are some crimes which demonstrate a level of intricate, careful, or heavily time-consuming planning or use of adult-level intellect or resolve which make no difference as to whether a person is 14 or 40.

The reason minors aren't tried as adults is not simply a matter of the number of years they've been around. Minors are not considered adults because they're not considered to be capable of adult-level reasoning, intellect, mental acuity, and full knowledge of the impact of their decisions.

When, however, a minor exhibits such adult-level abilities and full knowledge of the impact of their decisions- like planning on getting a gun and killing people and blowing things up, and taking the time to carefully plan an attack to kill people and manufacture incendiary devices to that end- then they are not acting as a child, they are acting as an adult.

Minors are also able to emancipate themselves of their parents if they can demonstrate to a judge that they are capable of mature, adult-level thought and motivations.

Minors are more than capable of having adult-level intellect and reasoning. This doesn't mean it'll always be applied for good purposes, just the same as in actual adults.

LazyBoy

If he's seriously plotting to kill people, go ahead and get him out of society.

-Will

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Hyacinthe

I think analog has summed it up best in this situation.

This 14 yr old was not behaving as a 14 year old he had a weapon and

So now we have a 14 yr old who has cold bloodedly (I don't think that's a word is it?) planned out the death of numerous people his own age. At 14 he understands death, he understands what he's taking from those people and their families, and he has decided to kill these other children anyway.

To me that act of planning it out makes this such a horrific idea. He has most definitely used adult reasoning and intellect when it comes to planning out these murders and / or attacks.

For the case stated in the OP do I support trying the kid in adult court? No, I don't, for the simple reason that he was caught before it happened and the system has a chance of working for him as well as against him at this point in his life. If he had actually had the opportunity to follow his plans through then my answer would be notably different.

As for the ridiculous idea of a 6 yr old being tried under adult conditions this would never happen. A 6 yr old does not have the emotional maturity to understand their actions and the consequences attached even if they do have the intellectual capability.

__________________
"I want to be remembered as the girl who always smiles even when her heart is broken... and the one that could brighten up your day even if she couldnt brighten her own"

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BigBaldRon

A better question is why in the hell is a MOTHER buying her 14 year old an assault weapon?

Plan9

Assault weapon is a media label.

A deer rifle is more dangerous.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Willravel

Of course he was acting like a 14 year old. He was being selfish and self pitying and a baby. I remember being 14. I wasn't a man yet. No one is an adult at 14, not even Doogie Howser.

Cynthetiq

The entire Jewish culture disagrees with you, 13 is the bar mitzvah when the Jewish community sees them be a man.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.