Murder or vigilante justice? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Push-Pull · 10-07-2007, 07:20 AM

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/Story?id=3685448&page=1

I'm not a parent, but I can honestly say that I don't blame her one tiny bit.
Just curious as to what the parents here think about this.....

squeeeb · 10-07-2007, 07:57 AM

this should be in the philosophy section. i remember a similar case many many years ago, a father shot the guy who raped his son while the guy was being transported between courts.

as much as i want to say i believe i don't have the right to take someone's life, as much as i want to say i don't believe in this kind of "justice" and i don't believe his wrong justifies my wrong, i can't say i wouldn't have done the same thing. if someone touched my daughter, i would probably have at least fucked the person up so bad he had to live the rest of his life as a cripple to think about what he did. honestly, i don't believe rapists can rehabilitate, so to me, she did the public a service by removing one more rapist. i can't condemn her...

Willravel · 10-07-2007, 08:03 AM

That's vengeance, not justice.

debaser · 10-07-2007, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

That's vengeance, not justice.

They are not always exclusive.

drego · 10-07-2007, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

That's vengeance, not justice.

Of course it's vengeance, but that also doesn't mean it can't run semi-parallel to some sense of justice, but it's also probably not the best way of handling this.

It's a really tough question, if something like that happened to me or someone in my family, I don't think I can honestly tell you what my reaction would be. The uncle sounds just cruel, and it saddens me to think that while it was good to remove him from the human gene-pool, it's too bad that he had a chance to reproduce, of which it sounds like the son is apparently following in his father's footsteps (and who here wants to bet that the uncle molested his own, and that's why the child is turning out the way he is?)

~Drego

flstf · 10-07-2007, 10:59 AM

The problem I have with this kind of justice is the number of times the wrong person would be killed because of anger filled rage. I am not saying it is true in this case but how many times have we found out that the first person accused was innocent. Even our judicial system gets it wrong many times.

LoganSnake · 10-07-2007, 11:11 AM

Good for her. I'd shoot his dick off then put two bullets through his eyes.

Willravel · 10-07-2007, 11:12 AM

The difference is intent. Vengeance is selfish, as was the case here. This was not justice.

LoganSnake · 10-07-2007, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

The difference is intent. Vengeance is selfish, as was the case here. This was not justice.

So what would the justice be in this case?

illdeviant · 10-07-2007, 11:15 AM

Granted, I'm no moral pillar of righteousness, but I think I have my head on straight. I feel that you guys are way too removed from the situation given your ability to calmly differentiate b/w vengeance and justice. Do you guys have daughters of your own? I don't, but this honestly gets me kind of riled up.

Just addressing the original topic of whether or not you blame her? Hell no.
Now regarding the court of law....
Seems like first degree murder to me. Between the 'malice afterthought and premeditation' I think she qualifies. Sure she was hot and bothered, but I feel that it was premeditated regardless. She went asking him if he raped the daughter...I'm sure she was looking for an excuse to pop him. Then again, there's nothing to say she didn't fab that story..

What I don't get is jurors like this...
"If she hadn't reloaded that gun," said Carl Eppolito, a juror from the second trial, "I would have let her walk."
... what nonsense is that?

Manic_Skafe · 10-07-2007, 11:21 AM

MURDER

Regardless of how many times she fired and reloaded and whether or not she was blinded by rage - she chose to become a murderer and while I can't speak for the rest of you, I sure as hell don't want murderers (or rapists) living next door to me.

Jinn · 10-07-2007, 11:26 AM

Murder can be vigilante justice, or it can just be cold-hearted cold-blooded murder. It's still killing another person. Rape is not the same as death, as much as people like to believe.

Baraka_Guru · 10-07-2007, 11:33 AM

Justice is meant to be the foundation for social harmony. This was not it. What she did was murder.

Willravel · 10-07-2007, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoganSnake

So what would the justice be in this case?

I'm reading the article and I don't see anything like "So they went to the police to report the rape...". Here's how it goes: someone is victimized, and the law is broken. Then you call the police and they investigate the crime, turn over the evidence to the state and then they prosecute. Assuming the evidence is there, the person is sentenced and serves time.

Manic_Skafe · 10-07-2007, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

I'm reading the article and I don't see anything like "So they went to the police to report the rape...". Here's how it goes: someone is victimized, and the law is broken. Then you call the police and they investigate the crime, turn over the evidence to the state and then they prosecute. Assuming the evidence is there, the person is sentenced and serves time.

And that person is attacked, harassed, and ass-raped in prison as the subsequent result of being a child molester. And if they live to make it out of prison then hopefully they'll be far too afraid of going back to repeat the offense.

That seems about as fair as things could be in this situation.

LoganSnake · 10-07-2007, 12:12 PM

Didn't the article say that she did contact the police?

Willravel · 10-07-2007, 12:16 PM

The article doesn't talk about any criminal proceedings against the alleged rapist.

LoganSnake · 10-07-2007, 12:37 PM

That's why she took the matters into her own hands.

Willravel · 10-07-2007, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoganSnake

That's why she took the matters into her own hands.

She took matters* into her own hands because the article doesn't mention whether she contacted the police?

*matters = the responsibility of the police and criminal justice system

LoganSnake · 10-07-2007, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

She took matters* into her own hands because the article doesn't mention whether she contacted the police?

*matters = the responsibility of the police and criminal justice system

Quote:

Though Kimberly contacted police after her children told her they'd been molested, no charges were filed against Hundley's eldest son, according to Evelyn.

That, plus the finding out that the uncle raped her daughter as well drove her over the edge. Don't get me wrong, she probably could have handled the matter a little better, but what's done is done.

flstf · 10-07-2007, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoganSnake

Good for her. I'd shoot his dick off then put two bullets through his eyes.

So if your 14 year old neighbor is having problems in school and tells her mother, who already dislikes you, that the reason is because you raped her 5 years ago, it's ok for her to shoot you 10 times? What if you are innocent?

Cynthetiq · 10-07-2007, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Murder or Vigilante Justice?
Kim Cunningham Killed Her Daughter's Alleged Rapist; Two Juries Acquitted Her of Murder
By CHRIS FRANCESCANI
ABC News Law & Justice Unit
Oct. 4, 2007 —

Amanda Cunningham said she vividly recalls the day her Uncle Coy raped her.

"I remember I had my purple Little Mermaid shirt on," she told ABC News. "He told me to take my clothes off, and I said no, so he took them off me."

She was 9 years old. Coy Hundley was drunk, Amanda said, but that wasn't unusual. He would rape her again a few months later, she testified in court.

Nearly five years later, in the fall of 2003, Amanda's mother, Kimberly Cunningham, finally learned of the alleged attacks. What happened next was the talk of Knoxville, Tenn., for years.

Kimberly got into her car and drove to the tool company where Hundley worked. She called him out into the parking lot. Cunningham said that she was praying he would deny the rape. Instead, she said Hundley, 39, laughed at her.

"What are you going to do about it?" he allegedly said.

Kimberly shot him five times, reloaded the weapon and fired five more rounds, killing him.

Watch the story this November on "20/20"

"I'll never forget him laughing at me," she testified at trial, according to court transcripts.

Witnesses said that after Kimberly shot Hundley, she got back into her car, pulled out of the parking lot and up to the road, put her blinker on and calmly drove away. Forty-five minutes later, she was in the Alcoa, Tenn., Police Department, turning in her nickel-plated revolver and telling police there had been a shooting.

"The person who is a good mother and in control and I'm a compassionate person was completely gone," Kimberly told ABC News. "You wouldn't believe how tiny she was," Kimberly said, her voice cracking. "This little thing, she wasn't more than 42 pounds, and for someone to do such vulgar things to her & there [sic] is simply no words to describe what happened & I just totally lost control."

On an audiotape of the police interrogation obtained by ABC News, Kimberly can be heard sobbing. "He raped my baby!" she told police.

In her first trial in April 2005, a Knoxville jury acquitted her of first degree murder, but deadlocked on second degree murder. In a second trial in October 2005, the jury acquitted Kimberly of second degree murder, but found her guilty of voluntary manslaughter. She was sentenced to four years in prison, a sentence that was recently reduced on appeal to six months in prison.

"If she hadn't reloaded that gun," said Carl Eppolito, a juror from the second trial, "I would have let her walk."

For the tight-knit town of Knoxville, nestled in the shadow of the Smoky Mountains, the case posed the thorniest of questions: What would you do if you believed your child had been raped?

He Said They'd 'Never Find My Body'
Kimberly had obtained a gun permit, taken lessons at a firing range and carried a loaded gun in a black purse in her car since August 2003, when she learned that Hundley's eldest son had allegedly molested her son Shane, now 15, as well as Amanda.

After Kimberly reported this to police, the Hundleys threatened her, Kimberly testified. Hundley was the common-law husband of Kimberly's sister Rhonda.

"I was scared of their family," Kimberly said. "They wanted me to drop it, kept telling me that 'it's gonna come out of my a--' if I didn't drop it." She said that Hundley and his friends repeatedly told her that they'd "never find my body."

Feeling helpless and angry, she said, she smashed the windows in Hundley's son's car. When she called Hundley at work, she testified, he told her the vandalism made the two families "even."

Repeated attempts by ABC News to interview Hundley's son were unsuccessful. Evelyn Hundley, Hundley's mother, denied that any molestation or rapes had occurred.

"I just think it's unjust," she said. "I don't believe in the justice system no more. Because she got away with cold-blooded murder."

Though Kimberly contacted police after her children told her they'd been molested, no charges were filed against Hundley's eldest son, according to Evelyn.

Listless and Withdrawn
For nearly five years, Amanda had harbored her secret, and it was beginning to wear on her. Her mother said that the A student had become listless and withdrawn. She remembers Amanda lying on the floor outside her bedroom door, "screaming and crying" until her mother would let her come in and sleep in her bed with her.

"I knew there was something wrong with her, but I didn't know what it was," Kimberly said. Mother and daughter began to fight bitterly, until one day in the early fall of 2003, in utter frustration, Kimberly put her daughter in the backseat of the car and told her she was taking her to the juvenile detention center.

"Why are you acting like this?" her mother pleaded with her. Then she had a thought. "Who is bothering you?" she asked her daughter.

The mother began ticking off the names of the people in town.

"When she got to [Coy's son's] name, I shook my head, yes," Amanda said. Her mother went to the police and then took her young son Shane to McDonald's. He, too, said that Coy's eldest son had been "touching" him.

Kimberly continued to press Amanda, but Amanda couldn't bring herself to tell her mother everything. "I didn't want to tell her because that was more embarrassing to me because he was an adult," Amanda told ABC News. But the secret distressed her, she said.

On Oct. 6, 2003, while her mother was putting Shane to bed, Amanda asked her to come into her bedroom. She said that she had something she wanted to talk about.

'Every Parent's Nightmare'
"I told her I had been having dreams about Coy," Amanda said. "She told me she knew there was more to what I was trying to say."

Amanda finally broke down and told her mother that Hundley had forced her to perform oral sex on him when she was 9 and then raped her. She said he had raped her again after that and threatened her not to tell anybody.

Finally, it all made sense to Kimberly. As Amanda got dressed for school, her mother slowly absorbed the enormity of what her daughter had told her.

"She wasn't like, psychotically out of it or anything," Amanda said. "She just seemed zoned out, like she was thinking about a lot of things."

By the time Amanda got to school, the man she said raped her lay dead in a parking lot, with four bullets in his head and four more scattered throughout his body.

"It's every parent's nightmare," Kimberly's attorney, Bruce Poston, told ABC News. "This case came down to the defense saying, 'What would you do if you were in her shoes?'"

'It Got & Meaner and Meaner'
Linda King, 58, a retired secretary from a General Motors purchasing department in Tennessee, was the final holdout against a first degree murder conviction for Kimberly in the first trial. She told ABC News that she was pressured by the 11-mother, one-father jury to convict Kimberly of first degree murder.

She said that she was called stupid "and worse things," and that at one point the male foreman pounded his fists on the table in front of her and threatened to write a note to the judge saying that she was "illogical, uncooperative and couldn't see the light of day."

"And that's exactly what he ended up doing," King said.

What began as a cordial deliberation in which several of the women felt Kimberly had acted in a moment of extreme passion and should not be charged with murder, devolved into a tense, 11-versus-1 contest of wills.

"It kind of got meaner and meaner," King said, adding that as time passed several of the other jurors became "nasty."

Two other jurors had held out with her into the second day of deliberations, but eventually sided with the others, she said. King said the other jurors told her they "would come down from first degree murder, and so now I had to come up from voluntary manslaughter."

"I told them, 'That's not how this works. It's not a compromise. This is someone's life we're talking about,'" said King. "I said I felt this family had been victimized enough and they needed a chance to recover themselves, and that mother needed to be with those kids."

The rest of the jury appeared to be deeply skeptical of Kimberly's family.

"The jury kept saying to me, 'That man is not here to defend himself,' but I believed what those kids went through," King said. "I really felt that when this had happened the first time, with [Kimberly's] nephew, that she had followed the law. She had tried to go through the system the first time, and I think she would have gone through the system again the second time unless Coy Hundley had reacted the way he did, laughing at her."

Eventually, King said, the tide began to turn. The jury finally voted to acquit Cunningham of first degree murder, but became hopelessly deadlocked on second degree murder. A second trial was ordered.

'It's Wrong to Kill Somebody, but You Want to Protect Your Family'
The first vote during deliberations in the second jury trial was relatively evenly split between convicting on second degree murder and voluntary manslaughter.

"About the only thing we did have an issue with was whether it was premeditated or a spur-of-the-moment thing," said juror David Miles, an electrical engineer.

He said the jury generally agreed from the start that vigilante justice had to be punished, but it was vexed when it came to deciding exactly how to punish a woman who had apparently been through what Kimberly had.

"I think the main feeling was that you shouldn't take justice into your own hands," Miles said of the jury deliberations, before adding, "but on the other side of the coin, if you were thrust into that situation, how would you react? You are brought up that you're supposed to protect your family at all costs, so it's really kind of a mixed thing."

He said he felt that what swayed the second jury toward a voluntary manslaughter charge was the mitigating factor that Kimberly feared Hundley, who had allegedly threatened Kimberly after she went to police to complain that Hundley's son had molested her children.

"Being a father myself, it was very difficult because I wasn't sure I wouldn't have done the same thing," said Miles. "You know, it's wrong to kill somebody, but you want to protect your family and I felt that's where she was at. She felt she was at the end of her rope. She had been dealing with [threats and intimidation] for several months, and when she got that latest piece of news it just broke her spirit. And she felt she had to take care of it."

The Letter of the Law
Another juror from the second trial, Brenda Newman, who retired three years ago from her job in a bank, said she knew from the start that she would have to force herself to put her personal feelings aside and follow the letter of the law.

"I knew the law would be the first priority," she told ABC News. "And that I could not act on my own feelings. I knew that I had to separate the way I felt as to what I might have done from what the law is, so I focused in on that the entire time."

"And it was very difficult,'' she said. "I could relate to her, especially as a mother. But like I said I wanted everything to be completely fair because I knew I had to live with it afterwards. I thought she felt helpless and that she was trying to protect her children. I did not feel like it was planned out. I felt like it was just a moment of passion."

Like Miles and other jurors from the second trial who spoke to ABC News, Newman said the jurors were adamant that they reach a conclusion on the charges in order to spare Kimberly's obviously damaged children from having to take the stand a third time in a third trial.

"Everyone in there agreed that we needed to come to a decision, but we agreed that it had to be one everyone could live with," said Newman.

Kimberly is expected to begin serving her sentence next month. With good behavior, she hopes to be home with her family by January.

Please post the article in the OP when starting a discussion.

LoganSnake · 10-07-2007, 01:41 PM

I may have exaggerated my reply, but I wouldn't sit and wait idly by for the police to arrive, that's for sure.

As for your question, the uncle's family had an ongoing feud with them with his eldest son molesting both her children. Taking that into an account plus the fact (or fiction) that he laughed when the mom asked if he raped his daughter, I can see her snapping very easily.

Besides, kinda late to ask what ifs now, isn't it?

analog · 10-07-2007, 01:42 PM

Murder.

Even though he essentially confessed to it, it's not her job to play judge, jury, and executioner.

Having said that, if it were me, I might well have done the same thing... except I wouldn't have reloaded.

Jinn · 10-07-2007, 01:55 PM

Rape can be counseled away.

You can't "come back" from being dead.

casual user · 10-07-2007, 01:57 PM

this is like that "a time to kill" movie except without the racism themes

yeah, they shouldn't charge her with full murder.

Shauk · 10-07-2007, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flstf

So if your 14 year old neighbor is having problems in school and tells her mother, who already dislikes you, that the reason is because you raped her 5 years ago, it's ok for her to shoot you 10 times? What if you are innocent?

why would you laugh about it and say "what are you going to do about it?" if you're innocent?

innocent people don't do that.

this was justice, and really, it was the cheapest death sentence ever.

didn't cost you taxpayers a damned thing to house an extra convict, and pay the electric bill for his chair.

LoganSnake · 10-07-2007, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JinnKai

Rape can be counseled away.

You can't "come back" from being dead.

Not always.

Baraka_Guru · 10-07-2007, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shauk

this was justice, and really, it was the cheapest death sentence ever.

Yeah, and if it was my friend she killed, it would be just for me to shoot her dead in turn.

What is this, Elizabethan theatre?

mixedmedia · 10-07-2007, 02:19 PM

Uh, he wouldn't have gotten the death penalty, shauk.

It is murder.

flstf · 10-07-2007, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shauk

why would you laugh about it and say "what are you going to do about it?" if you're innocent?

innocent people don't do that.

The person who kills you when you have been accused may very well say that you confessed. We have only her word to go on.

It is also possible that if someone came up to you and accused you of something so absurd, you might react with a puzzled laugh before getting angry yourself and saying something stupid.

Shauk · 10-07-2007, 02:27 PM

k i'm done with this topic.

because, ultimately, I don't give a fuck.

i'll pick a different battle over something that matters to me.

LoganSnake · 10-07-2007, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shauk

k i'm done with this topic.

because, ultimately, I don't give a fuck.

i'll pick a different battle over something that matters to me.

Heh, well said. I agree.

filtherton · 10-07-2007, 04:31 PM

I don't know what i'd do. I guess i'd probably assume that the interests of my family dictate that i stay out of prison.

But that would be if the perpetrator didn't tell me that no one would find my body. If someone is threatening my life, well, i'd rather stay out of the ground than out of prison. I think if i did kill the motherfucker, their head would probably be the last part of them that i shot.

It would also depend on whether the perpetrator was contrite and making a serious effort to fix whatever the fuck it is about them that's broken. Laughing in my face wouldn't do at all.

Willravel · 10-07-2007, 05:08 PM

If this happened to me, I would probably kill him. That doesn't make it any less wrong, though. Me killing him would be wrong.

Martian · 10-07-2007, 05:28 PM

It is murder.

If we assume, for the sake of argument, that he did rape her daughter and that's she's telling the truth (not an unreasonable assumption, although it is an assumption all the same), then where do we draw the line? Is it okay for me to shoot a man who kills my cat? Robs my home? Mugs my mother? What about shop keepers? Is it alright for them to track down the person who robs their shop and kill them? Or maybe that just calls for a maiming? And how about this guy's son? Okay, if he did what they say he's a creep too, but his dad was still murdered. Would he be right in wanting vengeance for that?

Quote:

Originally Posted by illdeviant

What I don't get is jurors like this...
"If she hadn't reloaded that gun," said Carl Eppolito, a juror from the second trial, "I would have let her walk."
... what nonsense is that?

By stopping to reload her revolver, she demonstrated that she was in control. Reloading a weapon is reasonably complex process and requires the weapon's user to be aware of what they're doing. Essentially, by reloading she denied the possibility of it being a crime of passion by proving that she was very much aware of what she was doing. And that's why it's murder.

Ourcrazymodern? · 10-08-2007, 06:21 AM

Murder One. That woman should be put away, and her children handed over to professionals.

If my daughter or either of my sons was raped by some pervert, however, I must admit I don't know what I might do.

Bill O'Rights · 10-08-2007, 07:36 AM

If she hadn't reloaded...

Bastard's dead. I think he deserved it. Both for what he did, and his cavalier, piss-in-your-face attitude about it.

But, she reloaded. I can't get past that.

The_Jazz · 10-08-2007, 07:53 AM

She's guilty of manslaughter. They tried her twice and found her guilty once, albeit of a lesser charge. The prosecutor shouldn't have given the jury the option of manslaughter. She's going to prison.

The system worked as it was designed. None of us heard the testimony, so we don't the real details of this case, just what's in the article.

What we're quibbling about here is whether or not the punishment fits her actions.

Baraka_Guru · 10-08-2007, 07:59 AM

I actually don't know much about the conditions for manslaughter. I would be willing to accept such a charge if categorized as voluntary. If there are laws set for acts of desperation leading to homicide, then I'd be willing to accept such a sentencing if it is balanced toward other major crimes. She took a life unlawfully; there should be consequences.

10-07-2007, 07:20 AM	#1 (permalink)
Push-Pull I'll ask when I'm ready.... Location: Firmly in the middle....	Murder or vigilante justice? http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/Story?id=3685448&page=1 I'm not a parent, but I can honestly say that I don't blame her one tiny bit. Just curious as to what the parents here think about this..... __________________ "No laws, no matter how rigidly enforced, can protect a person from their own stupidity." -Me- "Some people are like Slinkies..... They are not really good for anything, but they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight of stairs." -Unknown- DAMMIT! -Jack Bauer-

10-07-2007, 07:57 AM	#2 (permalink)
squeeeb part of the problem Location: hic et ubique	this should be in the philosophy section. i remember a similar case many many years ago, a father shot the guy who raped his son while the guy was being transported between courts. as much as i want to say i believe i don't have the right to take someone's life, as much as i want to say i don't believe in this kind of "justice" and i don't believe his wrong justifies my wrong, i can't say i wouldn't have done the same thing. if someone touched my daughter, i would probably have at least fucked the person up so bad he had to live the rest of his life as a cripple to think about what he did. honestly, i don't believe rapists can rehabilitate, so to me, she did the public a service by removing one more rapist. i can't condemn her... __________________ onward to mayhem!

10-07-2007, 11:11 AM	#7 (permalink)
LoganSnake We work alone Location: Cake Town	Good for her. I'd shoot his dick off then put two bullets through his eyes. __________________ Maturity is knowing you were an idiot in the past. Wisdom is knowing that you'll be an idiot in the future. Common sense is knowing that you should try not to be an idiot now. - J. Jacques

10-07-2007, 11:21 AM	#11 (permalink)
Manic_Skafe More Than You Expect Location: Queens	MURDER Regardless of how many times she fired and reloaded and whether or not she was blinded by rage - she chose to become a murderer and while I can't speak for the rest of you, I sure as hell don't want murderers (or rapists) living next door to me. __________________ "Porn is a zoo of exotic animals that becomes boring upon ownership." -Nersesian

10-07-2007, 11:26 AM	#12 (permalink)
Jinn Lover - Protector - Teacher Location: Seattle, WA	Murder can be vigilante justice, or it can just be cold-hearted cold-blooded murder. It's still killing another person. Rape is not the same as death, as much as people like to believe. __________________ "I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

10-07-2007, 08:03 AM	#3 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	That's vengeance, not justice.

10-07-2007, 10:59 AM	#6 (permalink)
flstf Easy Rider Location: Moscow on the Ohio	The problem I have with this kind of justice is the number of times the wrong person would be killed because of anger filled rage. I am not saying it is true in this case but how many times have we found out that the first person accused was innocent. Even our judicial system gets it wrong many times.

10-07-2007, 11:12 AM	#8 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	The difference is intent. Vengeance is selfish, as was the case here. This was not justice.

10-07-2007, 11:15 AM	#10 (permalink)
illdeviant Crazy Location: Lawn Guyland	Granted, I'm no moral pillar of righteousness, but I think I have my head on straight. I feel that you guys are way too removed from the situation given your ability to calmly differentiate b/w vengeance and justice. Do you guys have daughters of your own? I don't, but this honestly gets me kind of riled up. Just addressing the original topic of whether or not you blame her? Hell no. Now regarding the court of law.... Seems like first degree murder to me. Between the 'malice afterthought and premeditation' I think she qualifies. Sure she was hot and bothered, but I feel that it was premeditated regardless. She went asking him if he raped the daughter...I'm sure she was looking for an excuse to pop him. Then again, there's nothing to say she didn't fab that story.. What I don't get is jurors like this... "If she hadn't reloaded that gun," said Carl Eppolito, a juror from the second trial, "I would have let her walk." ... what nonsense is that?

10-07-2007, 11:33 AM	#13 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	Justice is meant to be the foundation for social harmony. This was not it. What she did was murder. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

10-07-2007, 12:12 PM	#16 (permalink)
LoganSnake We work alone Location: Cake Town	Didn't the article say that she did contact the police? __________________ Maturity is knowing you were an idiot in the past. Wisdom is knowing that you'll be an idiot in the future. Common sense is knowing that you should try not to be an idiot now. - J. Jacques

10-07-2007, 12:16 PM	#17 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	The article doesn't talk about any criminal proceedings against the alleged rapist.

10-07-2007, 12:37 PM	#18 (permalink)
LoganSnake We work alone Location: Cake Town	That's why she took the matters into her own hands. __________________ Maturity is knowing you were an idiot in the past. Wisdom is knowing that you'll be an idiot in the future. Common sense is knowing that you should try not to be an idiot now. - J. Jacques

10-07-2007, 01:41 PM	#23 (permalink)
LoganSnake We work alone Location: Cake Town	I may have exaggerated my reply, but I wouldn't sit and wait idly by for the police to arrive, that's for sure. As for your question, the uncle's family had an ongoing feud with them with his eldest son molesting both her children. Taking that into an account plus the fact (or fiction) that he laughed when the mom asked if he raped his daughter, I can see her snapping very easily. Besides, kinda late to ask what ifs now, isn't it? __________________ Maturity is knowing you were an idiot in the past. Wisdom is knowing that you'll be an idiot in the future. Common sense is knowing that you should try not to be an idiot now. - J. Jacques

10-07-2007, 01:42 PM	#24 (permalink)
analog Banned	Murder. Even though he essentially confessed to it, it's not her job to play judge, jury, and executioner. Having said that, if it were me, I might well have done the same thing... except I wouldn't have reloaded.

10-07-2007, 01:55 PM	#25 (permalink)
Jinn Lover - Protector - Teacher Location: Seattle, WA	Rape can be counseled away. You can't "come back" from being dead. __________________ "I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

10-07-2007, 01:57 PM	#26 (permalink)
casual user Crazy Location: everywhere and nowhere	this is like that "a time to kill" movie except without the racism themes yeah, they shouldn't charge her with full murder.

10-07-2007, 02:19 PM	#30 (permalink)
mixedmedia has all her shots. Location: Florida	Uh, he wouldn't have gotten the death penalty, shauk. It is murder. __________________ Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

10-07-2007, 02:27 PM	#32 (permalink)
Shauk Confused Adult Location: Spokane, WA	k i'm done with this topic. because, ultimately, I don't give a fuck. i'll pick a different battle over something that matters to me.

10-07-2007, 04:31 PM	#34 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	I don't know what i'd do. I guess i'd probably assume that the interests of my family dictate that i stay out of prison. But that would be if the perpetrator didn't tell me that no one would find my body. If someone is threatening my life, well, i'd rather stay out of the ground than out of prison. I think if i did kill the motherfucker, their head would probably be the last part of them that i shot. It would also depend on whether the perpetrator was contrite and making a serious effort to fix whatever the fuck it is about them that's broken. Laughing in my face wouldn't do at all.

10-07-2007, 05:08 PM	#35 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	If this happened to me, I would probably kill him. That doesn't make it any less wrong, though. Me killing him would be wrong.

10-08-2007, 06:21 AM	#37 (permalink)
Ourcrazymodern? still, wondering. Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge	Murder One. That woman should be put away, and her children handed over to professionals. If my daughter or either of my sons was raped by some pervert, however, I must admit I don't know what I might do. __________________ BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

10-08-2007, 07:36 AM	#38 (permalink)
Bill O'Rights will always be an Alyson Hanniganite Location: In the dust of the archives	If she hadn't reloaded... Bastard's dead. I think he deserved it. Both for what he did, and his cavalier, piss-in-your-face attitude about it. But, she reloaded. I can't get past that. __________________ "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony "Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt. Last edited by Bill O'Rights; 10-08-2007 at 07:39 AM..

10-08-2007, 07:53 AM	#39 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	She's guilty of manslaughter. They tried her twice and found her guilty once, albeit of a lesser charge. The prosecutor shouldn't have given the jury the option of manslaughter. She's going to prison. The system worked as it was designed. None of us heard the testimony, so we don't the real details of this case, just what's in the article. What we're quibbling about here is whether or not the punishment fits her actions. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

10-08-2007, 07:59 AM	#40 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	I actually don't know much about the conditions for manslaughter. I would be willing to accept such a charge if categorized as voluntary. If there are laws set for acts of desperation leading to homicide, then I'd be willing to accept such a sentencing if it is balanced toward other major crimes. She took a life unlawfully; there should be consequences. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot