If the "I was just following orders" excuse didn't fly with the prison guards at Abu Graib who were on trial a few years back, it shouldn't fly with this person.

Apparently you-- As well as some other people-- Don't understand the socio-economic situation faced within Germany during the 1920's to mid-1930's. It's pretty easy to exclaim what one person/group of people should have done while you're on the outside looking in, but is an entirely different story when you're on the inside looking out.

I'm not willing to demonize someone for something they were apart of 62+ years ago. He seems to have moved past it, so why are we trying to bring it up?

Not trying to justify the concentration camps or Abu Grahib.

Abu Grahib was illegal because it violated conventions that America was treaty too, plus it was exposed.

Now I can't with any ultimate degree of certainty say that Nazi Germany was or was not party to any international treaty.

If you want to be technical with the papers and deporting that guy 50 years later, cool, I can think of 10-20million people who shouldn't be here either.

Unless they have some concrete evidence pinpointing him to genocide, the point of his involvement is moot.

Seems more like he's tried to hide from it. Moving past it would require acknowledgment of his involvement. He never disclosed this on his application, so I can't agree with this assessment that he ever moved past it. His demons have caught up with him, plain and simple.

So...it's OK, to have been a Nazi, with direct involvement to forced labor camps, and human experimentation, so long as you were a scientist, that has skill and knowledge that will help you immeasurably in the upcoming Cold War?

Just don't be a 19 year old prison guard. In any capacity.

Look...I'm not condoning anything that this man (then kid) did, while wearing an SS uniform. I'm just saying that it's highly hypocritical to offer asylum to hundreds of Nazi scientists, many of whom were known to have actively participated in Nazi atrocities, just because they know how to build rockets.

As I've been reading through this thread, and remembering comments made in other threads, I've been connecting some dots in my head. These may be some convoluted dots, to be sure, but it's beginning to creep me out regarding the attitudes some of us have.

We'll argue that a corporation can pretty much do what it pleases to us because they're not the government. Our posts indicate that we take a hard-ass line with what we consider punk ass kids who commit crimes and support their being tried as adults.

Then, we have this guy in this thread, and we say shit like, "He was just a kid." or "He was only 19," or "He was just following orders."

Couple that with our otherwise typically hostile attitude towards illegal immigrants.

What the fuck is going on with us?

I agree with you, Bill, but since when has the way the world works not been hypocritical with fucked-up priorities?

But regardless, this man gains not one ounce of my sympathy. IL made the comment about him being 'crucified.' Which strikes me as very bizarre to say the least, considering an active member of the SS who guarded one of the most notorious 'prisoner of conscience' camps in Nazi Germany is indeed being martyred here in the name of some vague connections about inefficient law enforcement and illegal immigration. The man is being deported, not crucified. He was able to live a full life in America without being labelled a Nazi. That's pretty fucking great, don't you think? Boo-fucking-hoo.

I'll say it again, folks, find something important to get your panties in a bunch about. This one is hardly worth your time.

so you accept 'I was just following orders' as a legitimate defense? k.

just to be a gearhead... the nazis actually declared war on america after pearl harbor because of a treaty they had with the imperial japanese. on the other hand, they also had a non-aggression treaty with the soviets that didn't pan out that well.

"I forgot about the war," he said. "I want to leave the war behind me."

His exact words.

Yuppers. It amazes me at the number of people who feel the need to demonize the guy because he was a Nazi-- The operative word here is was. I said this earlier, but I'll say it again. The views of those looking in from the outside are vastly different (And often incorrect) than the views of those on the inside looking outward. Live through a period of time of skyrocketing unemployment and hyperinflation, then we'll talk. It's easy to say what someone else should or shouldn't have done when you live in a vastly different time period.

"I want to leave the war behind me."?
Well...yeah, I can definately see that.

"I forgot about the war."?
Nope. I don't care who you are, or in what capacity you served, or on what side you served. You don't just forget about the war. I know a good many vets, that would love to be able to forget.

If you can't forget it's because you don't want to forget :)

You will note my position is consistent.

Also at the time he committed these actions, he was true 'target'. His death would have been part of the war had he not surrendered.

To be a valid comparison we would have to be talking about the greenpeace hooligans 70 years from now being rounded up in put in jail for their little demonstration.

I think you are being a little melodramatic over this. Some people think that time alone will 'heal all wounds' and since the guy wasn't directly involved with the killings he should get off the hook. I'd want to know more myself before I'd say that. How were these dogs trained to kill? On test subjects? If so then this guy needs the boot for sure. If not then while I think maybe hes getting a bit of a raw deal, he should still be deported. This is arguing over a 65 year old crime though.

Immigration and the greenpeace just happened. Some would argue that deporting this old man would really do nothing, and they are correct in that it does no benefit to current society, while punishing illegal immigration or protests would make a difference.

I don't think tfp has lost its 'way' at all, its pretty much as its always has been. If everyone were of the same mind there would be no point in discussing it.

So in other words, we're expected to play along as he lives out the next 65 years of his life as if this never happened? If only we all could just push the reset button on our lives this easily.

...skyrocketing unemployment and hyperinflation...sounds a lot like the Great Depression. Germans weren't the only ones who had to suffer through tough times, ya know.

Are you freaking kidding me?

The US economy has only experienced hyperinflation once, and that was during the Revolutionary War era. As bad as one might have thought the Great Depression was in the US (Or even Canada or Australia), it was hundreds of times worse in Germany. Unlike in Germany the price of, say, an apple in the US didn't double about every day nor did the US government run flat out of money (In essence, go bankrupt).

You'd be amazed at the things you'd do if you were faced with the prospect of paying $6,000,000 for a loaf of bread. But, you see, you aren't faced with such a situation so it's impossible for you to empathize with any German citizen who was apart of the Nazi party/German army during WWII.

You seem to be of the mindset "The Nazi party was responsible for the Holocaust, therefore all Nazi's are evil", which is just flat out illogical.

on number 53: so i take it that "doing something" might translate as cleanse the nation of the Other, both those who operate on the political Left (greenpeace) and those who come in "from the outside" ("illegal immigrants")--which is kinda funny as the idea in the 1930s was to cleanse the nation of the Other, both those who operate on the political left (the spd and everything to the left of that) and those who come in "from the outside" (the jews).

i am not sure if you meant this ustwo.
but its right there.


on number 55: il--coudl you explain more about how you think of the nazi period? i cant quite figure it out. and you are treading into some complicated areas and messageboard format is not good for complexity. suffice it to say that i can see two diametrically opposed points of departure for your posts on this.
but because i dont know your posting logic yet, i'd rather read a bit more about where you are coming from.

because without qualifying your approach, you are treading dangerously close to rationalizing the nazi period.

When all you have is a hammer, everything in the world looks like a nail.

Comparing condemning Greenpeace for a stupid dangerous protest, or closing the border to illegal immigration to genocide is a bit of a stretch don't ya think?

Wasn't the SS a mostly volunteer outfit? There's a difference between the average conscript and the SS, no?

At any rate, he's a liar - "I didn't know what was going on". C'mon - the smell of burning bodies, the prisoners dying of malnutrition if not the ovens? You were there, sport. And you lied to get in. Out you go, oldtimer!

Hell, my wife's grandparents were on both sides of the fence and both knew what was going on (although to what extent is debateable). Her grandmother happily joined the Nazis; her grandfather went to the camps himself (despite being pure German) because he was ideologically opposed to what was happening.

Edit: I just looked it up: the SS was a volunteer outfit until the end of 1943. People who joined after that may have been conscripts or volunteers. I believe German law prohibits military benefits to those who were members prior to 44.

ustwo:

re. your post just above this one (separated now by one)

it would be if that were the comparison.
but it wasnt.

the comparison was between your post and the logic of the german right of the 1930s. genocide didnt just happen out of nowhere--it followed from a particular nationalist ideology, applied in an extreme manner. had there been no ideology, there would have been no consent and had there been no consent there would have been no genocide. folk like to forget that the nzi party was actually quite popular before it wasnt, and that its politics had a broad appeal. it worked by negative and positive definitions of the nation, of the body politics and by equating "purity" and wellbeing.

of course, this appeal was lost on many leftist, most of whom found themselves on extended holiday in places like buchenwald or in exile---rounded up on the order of what you suggest for the "greenpeave hooligans" and justified on more or less the same rhetorical grounds.

then you have the Outsiders who Invade and Pollute--the jews in the 1930s, "illegal immigrants" now.

i am just pointing out the parallels.
but i am sure that you did not intend them.

I take the same stance on him as I do on other illegals. My position is simply this: All illegals have 30 days to leave and line up at the door to apply for permanent residence. Check theier background, make sure they aren't a wanted criminal and are not a member of a militant anti-US organization ("terrorist" is such an overused, overapplied buzzword,) and if they pass the check, give 'em a SSN and let them start paying taxes.

If this man's history qualifies as war crimes that would prevent a new applicant from being granted residency, then he should not be allowed back. If he can show that he has atoned for his crimes and/or is not denied entry to the country based on current standards, he may stay.

Tell me again how illegal Mexicans pay taxes? Sales tax, sure, but federal and state income taxes?

I dont know how many pay state and local income taxes, but evidently more and more are in order to establish a credit history:
Further, according to the chief actuary of the Social Security Administration who testified several years ago, undocumented workers pay $billions in payroll taxes and will not be eligible for benefits....a big net plus to the SS system:
I dont condone illegal immigration, either by those who come across our southern border or those who lie on immigration forms....but I hope that clears up the myth that illegals dont pay taxes.