Should he be deported
 

Today the news broke, here where I live, that a local man was being accused of being a nazi war criminal and was facing deportation.

Here is just one of the articles about it

http://www.ajc.com/gwinnett/content/...cxntlid=inform

Now what little I remember from studying this kind of stuff years back....young men in Germany had no choice but to join the military if they were selected. I have read about the brainwashing that was done to them.

This guy says he didnt know what was going on....I for one believe him, he was not high ranking, he was a kid...hell the world didnt even know what was going on at the time. I dont agree with the fact that he omitted his service in order to get in to the country, but I think a lot of people, once they found out what had actually been going on were ashamed to have been connected to it in any way, so I dont know that I blame him for doing so.

The man has been in the US for 50(?) years....he hasnt been in any trouble ever from all the stories I've read today. He's been living a quiet life as a tax paying citizen trying to forget the horrors of his youth.

I for one, dont think he should be deported. (Although, all morning I've had flashbacks of reading Apt Pupil and it kinda sways my decision some). If he'd been a higher up that was directly involved with ordering the executions of the camp victims I would have a totally different opinion.

What do you think?

I agree and my grandmother lost family in the Holocaust.
The man is 85, so he was 16 when Hitler came to power. He's lived 2/3 of his life in this country (probably barely has a German accent at this point) and 'might' live to be 100.
If there are former Nazi's living in the US that actually committed crimes such as murder, yea, deport them. This says he did not do so as an individual, nor took part in any killing. He's admitted to his 'part', for what it's worth, which was a guard.
Let an old man die in his home with his memories.

He came here legally? He should be allowed to stay.

Go round up some other illegal person....

Have a holocaust survivor punch him in the gut and be done with it. Prison seems useless for someone that old.

Well, that's the thing that the article left me a little unclear on. Is it legal to have concealed participation in the Nazi German military on immigration documents?

I believe that most jews I know would forgive him and move on. Not all of them. But most.

Leave him be! He was a kid when all this happened. I say let the man go and use your resources on something worthwhile.

Pick your battles...

There are better things to concern ourselves with than this old man.

Hell... A good many of the evil things done in this country today are by red blooded 'mericans.

Well it seems pretty weak to me, but on the other hand, were this 30 years ago would people feel the same way about the same guy?

He lied, he got caught, very late, but he still lied.

Based on what was in the article he doesn't seem to fall into the 'monster' category but meh.

It depends on what they can prove really. Can they actually verify his participation? It seems out of all the members of the SS, it would be hard to pin point any actions by ONE guard. Seems awfully skidish by the perameters of our justice system, the dude was a nazi, not cool, but as noted in the thread, seems he's lived here quietly for 50+ years. Has he trained any dogs to kill here lately?

Statute of limitations?

I say we have illegal aliens beat him to death.

Oh, the weird irony would be too much to bear.

Sorry, Shani...but I see a double standard here if I recall your position on illegal aliens.

It is highly questionable that he came here legally. My SO's (an Israeli woman) father, a holocaust survivor, came here after the war under the Displaced Persons Act (he moved to Israel a few years later to reunite with his few surviving family members. The DP act opened up US immigration to thousands of displaced Jews (and other survivors of nazi atrocities) and specifically required those persons to reveal any past Nazi associations. This guy did not reveal his past...a clear violation of the law.

Does 50 years living here, trouble free and paying taxes, make him a better citizen than an illegal Mexican who has lived here 10 years, started a family, is trouble free and pays taxes?

On a personal level, I see nothing gained by deporting the guy, but for those who consider how he has acted since his illegal entry here, I would suggest applying the same standard to more recent (illegal) immigrants.

So basically this is using the phrase "Nazi War Criminal" very very loosely, which in my mind is doing nothing more than making grabs at headlines. Nothing in the article points the the fact that he was a "War Criminal" aside from a base involvement in the war, which almost every young person was in Germany at that time, in one way or another.

I mean it would be one thing if he trained these animals to guard the prisons, and then sat there and intentionally egged the animals into attacking the persons in the camp, but from what I got from the article, he merely trained the animals to guard the prisons (which I'm fairly certain that our prison system still uses guard / attack dogs to secure its perimeter).

So my thoughts are that IF this man is in fact deported, it should be under the pretense of falsifying documents to gain entry into the country, not the fact that he is casually being labeled a "Nazi War Criminal".

~Drego

I could be mistaken, but the fact that he's lived here for this long and is still living as a free man, shows that he is not what I'd consider notorious. I would MUCH rather see the time and $$$$ that was used in this case being put forth to cut down on illegal immigration by people who move here with intent to dodge taxes, send money out, etc...Not to mention that there are criminals out there who are CURRENTLY commiting crimes, as opposed to someone who did something, where the knowledge of it being considered "wrong" at the time, is arguable anyways...

That being said, I say he should be allowed to stay. Its hard to leave the past behind us if we keep digging it up.

-Will

i don't know the first thing about statutes of limitations... but the dude is 85. leave him alone. and let him smoke some weed while we're at it. he's earned it. he's 80fucking5. that is old. take away his driver's liscence if you need to punish him.

(and for context, i'm not against illegal immigration.)

*facepalm*

I vote for a slap on the wrist.

actually, no, I don't, dear goverment, stop fucking wasting tax dollars with this nonsense. k thanks.

as a side note, does it bother anyone else that it took the government FIFTY TWO YEARS to realize something like this?

what a fucking insult to this guy, hasn't he been working in the U.S. for that duration? paying taxes to the very government that is trying to boot him out now?

wow I just.. ugh..

yeah, go go homeland security and the information age ;)

yes, I cant deny it....its one of the things I've struggled with in my opinion. The way I justify it, in my head, is that he still went thru the immigration process, he still did whatever immigration laws required in 1955, he didnt jump a fence or whatever and move here to live off the taxpayers. He omitted his involvement on his paper work, but at least he did the paperwork. It may sound weak to some to justify it that way....but thats the way my head is wrapping around it.

I dont know how the laws worked back then. I know a new article states that he didnt tell immigration about his military service and that he wasnt asked.

Are they busting on him merely because he didn't disclose, or because what he did for Hitler was a "war crime"? If it's because the disclosure, then I have to say rules are rules. (Although for the record, it's too bad that we have to harass this guy when we should be busting millions of others for illegal entry....)

If it's because of what he did as an SS guard, then where is our "innocent until proven guilty"?

My take on it is this, I agree with most everyone here that deporting him is a waste of money and in the end serves no useful purpose. But, I still see the need for him to repay what he has done.

Sure, he was a kid when it happened. He found out what was going on, got the hell out and came here. He lied on his paperwork knowing that if he didn't, he'd never get in.

But still, he was involved. He stood between innocent people and freedom and helped injure or kill those who tried to escape.

My suggestion, community service. Send him to Holocaust survivor group meeting and let him look them in the eye and explain why he did what he did. Make him talk to the people he hurt and their families. Maybe someone there will give the verbal punishment he needs, or maybe they'll listen to him and forgive him. Their choice.

according to the charges, he's being charged with being in the SS and for training guard dogs to be used in the case of escaped and attempting to escape prisoners

The US doesnt have jany legal authority or jurisdiction to charge and put on trial individuals for crimes committed outside the United States unless the crimes were committed against American citizens.

Instead, what the DoJ does is charge anyone with a past Nazi association for violating U.S. immigration laws. A sample immigration questionnaire from the time:

Did you, during the period March 23, 1933 to May 8, 1945, in association with either the Nazi Government of Germany or any organization or government associated or allied with the Nazi Government of Germany, ever order, incite, assist or otherwise participate in the persecution of any person because of race, religion, national origin or political opinion.

Yes...... No....

Immigration Questionnaire (pdf)

The guy violated US immigration law.

I think God of Thunder proposed a sensible solution.

What you posted isnt from 1955, it has to be after 1990 because it includes section 274c which wasnt added until 1990. He states he was never asked...we need to find an application from 1955 to see if that question was there then.

here is what they are charging him with (for grounds of deportation, not for "war crimes") it doesnt even mention lying to immigrate

http://messageboard.techsavy.net/upl...ngdocument.pdf

If you lie on a job application, you will get fired when the truth comes out.

If he lied on his immigration forms, he needs to be deported. Age is irrelevant. Let due process run it's course.

If he's guilty of falsifying/omitting information from his application, try him for that & subject him to the penalties thereof. If that includes deportation, then so be it. At least that has some speck of legitimacy to it.

The problem is this: have we denied entry to or deported EVERY member of the German military during WWII? If not, then this guy should not be deported. I can see this for top-level officers & personnel like Mengele...but a freakin' dog trainer?

Umm...no. In fact...we invited, begged, pleaded and even forced many to come here.

Wernher von Braun ring a bell?
He was the NASA "rocket scientist" during the 50's and 60's. Although he was an SS Sturmbannfuhrer (Nazi military rank), he was brought to this country, under Operation Paperclip, when he surrendered to American forces, rather than risk surrendering to the Soviets. He was intrumental in the German V-2 rocket program, during the war. The fact that we got him, and not the Russians, was what kept us from falling on our face during the Cold War space race.

First, we must ask him questions about the world series.
Then force him to watch episodes of Hogan's Hero's.
To lure him in to a false sense of trust, make small talk regarding how hot Hilda (Klink's secretary) was.
After studying his reactions to certain scenes, perform the following:

• If he laughs at the bumbling German characters, then have a holocaust survivor punch him in the gut (per willravel) and let him stay.
• If he acts indignant toward the ineptitude of Col. Klink and Sgt. Schultz, or if he cheers for SS Maj. Hochstetter, then give him "30 days in the cooler" and deport him.

http://www.hogansheroesfanclub.com/i...9300_small.jpg

Seriously, I'd let him stay until hard evidence is found that he performed any cruelties to the prisoners. If he is guilty, then send him back to Germany.

I can't agree more. For crying out loud - he's 85.

well, one thing is for sure: we are not going to be able to address any of the questions about procedures here. so the question of how this cat got here in the first place is effectively moot.
and when i read the article, i could almost see the lawyer's advice: put yourself out there into the "court of public opinion...be bewildered and that will help generate sympathy"
"but i am bewildered"
"so much the better."

the american relation to folk "with a nazi past" after world war 2 was a whole lot more ambiguous than you might think if your understanding of this period derives from world war 2 films and history channel stuff.
what bor posted above is right concerning "former" nazis whose skills were considered militarily beneficially in the post-war context--so von braun and others who were connected to the rocket development program, and gehlen, the head of nazi intelligence---and many many many others, including a healthy swatch of folk who were war criminals by ANY definition of the term---all were ushered out of europe and away from prosecution because they were understood as a form of war reparations. for example, the information taken from the gehlen org formed the basis for the cia intel re. the ussr....
the fact of this, its scale, its modes of operation are all at this point quite well documented. but this applied mostly to folk---and often really odious folk--whose skills or information was useful to the americans.

in germany right after the war ended, "denazification" came to consist in walking around asking people who wanted to run for office and who were no communist whether they were still nazis. who would say yes? so if they said no and wanted to run for political office, the americans were fine with tht because they were far more concerned that the kpd would get into power than they were that former nazis would remain in power. check for yourself.

as for the immigration controls put onto lower-level former nazis, i am less sure about this area.

on this guy, however, it's really hard to say what happened or why.
training attack dogs at buchenwald and dachau is a problematic past.
training guard dogs is a curious border area in terms of complicity with the machinery that operated within the camps.
the claim of "not knowing" seems like bullshit to me--but here again the question gets realy complex as son as you start pushing into it, what folk do and do not process of political repression that unfolds around them. there is an entire sub-field in german history that is geared around trying to sort this out. "history of the everyday" its called.
then again, my august 1945, it appeared that no-one knew anything anywhere, everyone was surprised. and on this too, it;s hard to know what to make of it exactly.
what is sure is that by 2007, this particular guy probably really did not know.


i dont know---this is a strange situation in many many ways and i dont feel like i have the information required to take much of a position beyond saying that there is not enough information to take a strong position.

To expand, a bit, on my previous post...here is a photo of the Project Paperclip scientists, taken at Fort Bliss Texas.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Fort_Bliss.jpg

Now...for the conspiracy theorist in all of us...take a good look at the guy in the second row, third from the left. Look like anyone we know? :oogle:

Now...if we can cut him some slack...then Paul Henss should be no problem at all. :thumbsup:

My point exactly.

Also, not to thread-jack...

We keep after these guys after 50 years...but can't find the illegals who crossed our borders yesterday? Oh, wait...it TOOK 50 years to find him....no WONDER we can't find the illegals.

Sometimes I wonder if we deserve our sovereignty.

Fuck him. If he was a monster once, he is a monster still. Why should we bother keeping him around?

because training dogs when you're 19 makes you a monster.

puh-lease.

To have stood guard at a concentration camp and claim to NOT know what was going on?

He's lying

He's hiding something

or he's a plain imbecile.

bottom line, he participated, he's an unconvicted war criminal...a suspect if you will. He should be deported.

OK, but let's consider the possibility that perhaps he had no choice. Even if he was privy to what was going on, and if he refused his post, it is highly likely that he would have been shot. I have no doubt that sort of thing happened quite often, it was just the way the Nazi's operated. It's possible that he was able to do his job and still maintain some sort of clean conscience by way of lesser evil. Yes he helped the Nazi's, but perhaps in not having a choice, he was as passive as possible towards the prisoners.

Also consider that his job was no different than some Americans. I'm certain that there were some guards here in the states at POW camps whose orders were to shoot escaping prisoners and train dogs. I'd hardly call his post a "war crime" based on this alone. If there is a true war crime by this person, then I'd like to think that the US is going to try him on provable facts and not generalized descriptions.

I believe we have bigger problems to worry about besides an 85 year old man that probably did know what was going on in the camps but doubtfully gassed or actually killed anyone.

Why not worry about immigration issues that are going on right now... not someone that slipped thru the cracks 50 years ago.

My heart is torn on this one. I feel on the fence. On one side, the horrors and atrocities of the Holocaust just fill me with rage and I want everyone who let it happen to be punished. To feel the fear as they are led into a gas chamber or shot into a pit that they dug for themselves.

On the other, as mentioned in the article and numerous books Ive read on the subject (its a very morbid fascination of mine), children were bred to do as they were told and that they were better than the others. Huge groups of people taught them that by being of Aryan descent/design/looks, they were better than others and needed to do as they were told to help purge the Earth of people different than them. Of lesser status and lesser worth.

Still, I think when he came here he should have listed his service. You couldn\\\'t just forget about training dogs to attack and maim people. You cant just forget the war! Especially not since you were a part of it, albeit a small one.

To make my final decision, Id have to know what the punishment would be. Where are they deporting him to? Some sort of jail? Or are they just pushing him off to some other country of his selection?

To me, it seems like the Office of Special Investigations ought to focus on more recent things at hand. Deporting a man of a crime fifty years prior really does nothing except say to the world, Wed rather have criminals in your countries and prove the the US Government is to some extent able to figure out people\\\'s identities.

I think they would be better served looking for Osama bin Ladens psychotically angry ass who has killed thousands of people in this century. Shouldnt we punish him? Or will we wait fifty years and just deport his family from the US.

as to whether this guy knew what was happening--if he was mostly at buchenwald, its' possible that he was attached to the political camp and not the extermination camp and could have--had he worked really really hard and had the wind always blown in a favorable direction so that the smell from the ovens did not waft his way, in other words had not knowing been his real fulltime job and training guard dogs was just a side gig--its *possible* that he didnt know.
but he was at dachau.
he knew.
and its really unlikely that he didnt know at buchenwald as well.


i dont really understand the genocide--it's just water over the bridge---not my problem who really cares---attitudes above.
and i PARTICULARLY do not understand the logic that would have folk substitute contemporary "immigration problems" for dealing with folk who participated at one level or another in genocide. particularly because---well---the genocide of the 1940s was geared around cleansing the national body politics from contaminants, outsiders etc.. too.

it really makes me wonder what, if anything, folk are thinking when they say this stuff.

if there's a problem it centers on the fact that this guy is in his 80s, apparently not in the greatest of health, was a low-level functionary in a horrific machine and--frankly--he slipped through the cracks and got away with it.
so fine. he's in his 80s and it would be absurd to deport him beause it would be the functional equivalent of executing him.

but he knew.

I think it's a little odd, too. Especially considering the conditions at Dachau. My daughter went there this past summer, so I'm kind of fresh with the knowledge of the history of the camp. I find it highly improbable that someone lived and worked there yet did not know.

And not everyone was with the Hitler Youth, come on. That one gets to slide, too?

Does it matter that when American troops liberated the camp they were so horrified by the conditions there that they executed many of the German guards they found there? Would you be feeling bad for this guy then?

Personally, I don't care what happens to him. There are consequences to our actions, even when we aren't or don't feel in control of them.

And I also find it highly incongruous that we hold a 19-year-old fruit picker to a higher standard than a 19-year-old who trained dogs to kill people for the Nazis.

Here is a picture of where prisoners slept at Dachau, my daughter took this picture...
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b2...a/40110010.jpg
When the camp was liberated, I hope my memory is right, but there were around 30,000 prisoners there and the facillity was designed to hold around 5000.

Here is where they went to the bathroom...
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b2...a/40110005.jpg

So instead of bitching about the treatment this poor old man is getting when we should be paying attention to more 'important' things...why don't we try advocating for more important things instead.

So the US government should deport anyone currently living in the US who was a part of the German government during WWII? That's-- For lack of a better term-- A pretty stupid notion.

Who cares if he knew? That was more than sixty years ago. Water under the bridge as far as I'm concerned.

he wasn't a beaurucrat, he was an SS guard. Huge difference if you weren't aware of that.

tell that to all the survivors, see if they would agree with you. Would you also give hitler, stalin, or mussolini a pass as well?

Oops! I didn't mean government (I wonder where that came from...). Oh well, you knew what I meant regardless.

He wasn't a leader or in any leadership role. He was simply your common run-of-the-mill soldier who did what his government told him to do. Sorry, but I'm not willing to crucify some 80-something year old man for a war which ended approximately 62 years ago. It happened. You can't change it. Let bygones be bygones and focus on the important issues.

If the "I was just following orders" excuse didn't fly with the prison guards at Abu Graib who were on trial a few years back, it shouldn't fly with this person.

Apparently you-- As well as some other people-- Don't understand the socio-economic situation faced within Germany during the 1920's to mid-1930's. It's pretty easy to exclaim what one person/group of people should have done while you're on the outside looking in, but is an entirely different story when you're on the inside looking out.

I'm not willing to demonize someone for something they were apart of 62+ years ago. He seems to have moved past it, so why are we trying to bring it up?

Not trying to justify the concentration camps or Abu Grahib.

Abu Grahib was illegal because it violated conventions that America was treaty too, plus it was exposed.

Now I can't with any ultimate degree of certainty say that Nazi Germany was or was not party to any international treaty.

If you want to be technical with the papers and deporting that guy 50 years later, cool, I can think of 10-20million people who shouldn't be here either.

Unless they have some concrete evidence pinpointing him to genocide, the point of his involvement is moot.

Seems more like he's tried to hide from it. Moving past it would require acknowledgment of his involvement. He never disclosed this on his application, so I can't agree with this assessment that he ever moved past it. His demons have caught up with him, plain and simple.

So...it's OK, to have been a Nazi, with direct involvement to forced labor camps, and human experimentation, so long as you were a scientist, that has skill and knowledge that will help you immeasurably in the upcoming Cold War?

Just don't be a 19 year old prison guard. In any capacity.

Look...I'm not condoning anything that this man (then kid) did, while wearing an SS uniform. I'm just saying that it's highly hypocritical to offer asylum to hundreds of Nazi scientists, many of whom were known to have actively participated in Nazi atrocities, just because they know how to build rockets.

As I've been reading through this thread, and remembering comments made in other threads, I've been connecting some dots in my head. These may be some convoluted dots, to be sure, but it's beginning to creep me out regarding the attitudes some of us have.

We'll argue that a corporation can pretty much do what it pleases to us because they're not the government. Our posts indicate that we take a hard-ass line with what we consider punk ass kids who commit crimes and support their being tried as adults.

Then, we have this guy in this thread, and we say shit like, "He was just a kid." or "He was only 19," or "He was just following orders."

Couple that with our otherwise typically hostile attitude towards illegal immigrants.

What the fuck is going on with us?

I agree with you, Bill, but since when has the way the world works not been hypocritical with fucked-up priorities?

But regardless, this man gains not one ounce of my sympathy. IL made the comment about him being 'crucified.' Which strikes me as very bizarre to say the least, considering an active member of the SS who guarded one of the most notorious 'prisoner of conscience' camps in Nazi Germany is indeed being martyred here in the name of some vague connections about inefficient law enforcement and illegal immigration. The man is being deported, not crucified. He was able to live a full life in America without being labelled a Nazi. That's pretty fucking great, don't you think? Boo-fucking-hoo.

I'll say it again, folks, find something important to get your panties in a bunch about. This one is hardly worth your time.

so you accept 'I was just following orders' as a legitimate defense? k.

just to be a gearhead... the nazis actually declared war on america after pearl harbor because of a treaty they had with the imperial japanese. on the other hand, they also had a non-aggression treaty with the soviets that didn't pan out that well.

"I forgot about the war," he said. "I want to leave the war behind me."

His exact words.

Yuppers. It amazes me at the number of people who feel the need to demonize the guy because he was a Nazi-- The operative word here is was. I said this earlier, but I'll say it again. The views of those looking in from the outside are vastly different (And often incorrect) than the views of those on the inside looking outward. Live through a period of time of skyrocketing unemployment and hyperinflation, then we'll talk. It's easy to say what someone else should or shouldn't have done when you live in a vastly different time period.

"I want to leave the war behind me."?
Well...yeah, I can definately see that.

"I forgot about the war."?
Nope. I don't care who you are, or in what capacity you served, or on what side you served. You don't just forget about the war. I know a good many vets, that would love to be able to forget.

If you can't forget it's because you don't want to forget :)

You will note my position is consistent.

Also at the time he committed these actions, he was true 'target'. His death would have been part of the war had he not surrendered.

To be a valid comparison we would have to be talking about the greenpeace hooligans 70 years from now being rounded up in put in jail for their little demonstration.

I think you are being a little melodramatic over this. Some people think that time alone will 'heal all wounds' and since the guy wasn't directly involved with the killings he should get off the hook. I'd want to know more myself before I'd say that. How were these dogs trained to kill? On test subjects? If so then this guy needs the boot for sure. If not then while I think maybe hes getting a bit of a raw deal, he should still be deported. This is arguing over a 65 year old crime though.

Immigration and the greenpeace just happened. Some would argue that deporting this old man would really do nothing, and they are correct in that it does no benefit to current society, while punishing illegal immigration or protests would make a difference.

I don't think tfp has lost its 'way' at all, its pretty much as its always has been. If everyone were of the same mind there would be no point in discussing it.

So in other words, we're expected to play along as he lives out the next 65 years of his life as if this never happened? If only we all could just push the reset button on our lives this easily.

...skyrocketing unemployment and hyperinflation...sounds a lot like the Great Depression. Germans weren't the only ones who had to suffer through tough times, ya know.

Are you freaking kidding me?

The US economy has only experienced hyperinflation once, and that was during the Revolutionary War era. As bad as one might have thought the Great Depression was in the US (Or even Canada or Australia), it was hundreds of times worse in Germany. Unlike in Germany the price of, say, an apple in the US didn't double about every day nor did the US government run flat out of money (In essence, go bankrupt).

You'd be amazed at the things you'd do if you were faced with the prospect of paying $6,000,000 for a loaf of bread. But, you see, you aren't faced with such a situation so it's impossible for you to empathize with any German citizen who was apart of the Nazi party/German army during WWII.

You seem to be of the mindset "The Nazi party was responsible for the Holocaust, therefore all Nazi's are evil", which is just flat out illogical.

on number 53: so i take it that "doing something" might translate as cleanse the nation of the Other, both those who operate on the political Left (greenpeace) and those who come in "from the outside" ("illegal immigrants")--which is kinda funny as the idea in the 1930s was to cleanse the nation of the Other, both those who operate on the political left (the spd and everything to the left of that) and those who come in "from the outside" (the jews).

i am not sure if you meant this ustwo.
but its right there.


on number 55: il--coudl you explain more about how you think of the nazi period? i cant quite figure it out. and you are treading into some complicated areas and messageboard format is not good for complexity. suffice it to say that i can see two diametrically opposed points of departure for your posts on this.
but because i dont know your posting logic yet, i'd rather read a bit more about where you are coming from.

because without qualifying your approach, you are treading dangerously close to rationalizing the nazi period.

When all you have is a hammer, everything in the world looks like a nail.

Comparing condemning Greenpeace for a stupid dangerous protest, or closing the border to illegal immigration to genocide is a bit of a stretch don't ya think?

Wasn't the SS a mostly volunteer outfit? There's a difference between the average conscript and the SS, no?

At any rate, he's a liar - "I didn't know what was going on". C'mon - the smell of burning bodies, the prisoners dying of malnutrition if not the ovens? You were there, sport. And you lied to get in. Out you go, oldtimer!

Hell, my wife's grandparents were on both sides of the fence and both knew what was going on (although to what extent is debateable). Her grandmother happily joined the Nazis; her grandfather went to the camps himself (despite being pure German) because he was ideologically opposed to what was happening.

Edit: I just looked it up: the SS was a volunteer outfit until the end of 1943. People who joined after that may have been conscripts or volunteers. I believe German law prohibits military benefits to those who were members prior to 44.

ustwo:

re. your post just above this one (separated now by one)

it would be if that were the comparison.
but it wasnt.

the comparison was between your post and the logic of the german right of the 1930s. genocide didnt just happen out of nowhere--it followed from a particular nationalist ideology, applied in an extreme manner. had there been no ideology, there would have been no consent and had there been no consent there would have been no genocide. folk like to forget that the nzi party was actually quite popular before it wasnt, and that its politics had a broad appeal. it worked by negative and positive definitions of the nation, of the body politics and by equating "purity" and wellbeing.

of course, this appeal was lost on many leftist, most of whom found themselves on extended holiday in places like buchenwald or in exile---rounded up on the order of what you suggest for the "greenpeave hooligans" and justified on more or less the same rhetorical grounds.

then you have the Outsiders who Invade and Pollute--the jews in the 1930s, "illegal immigrants" now.

i am just pointing out the parallels.
but i am sure that you did not intend them.

I take the same stance on him as I do on other illegals. My position is simply this: All illegals have 30 days to leave and line up at the door to apply for permanent residence. Check theier background, make sure they aren't a wanted criminal and are not a member of a militant anti-US organization ("terrorist" is such an overused, overapplied buzzword,) and if they pass the check, give 'em a SSN and let them start paying taxes.

If this man's history qualifies as war crimes that would prevent a new applicant from being granted residency, then he should not be allowed back. If he can show that he has atoned for his crimes and/or is not denied entry to the country based on current standards, he may stay.

Tell me again how illegal Mexicans pay taxes? Sales tax, sure, but federal and state income taxes?

I dont know how many pay state and local income taxes, but evidently more and more are in order to establish a credit history:
Further, according to the chief actuary of the Social Security Administration who testified several years ago, undocumented workers pay $billions in payroll taxes and will not be eligible for benefits....a big net plus to the SS system:
I dont condone illegal immigration, either by those who come across our southern border or those who lie on immigration forms....but I hope that clears up the myth that illegals dont pay taxes.