tecoyah

Keep in mind...the amount needed to keep this system operational is spent every day in Iraq!!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...090801654.html

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Ourcrazymodern?

Priorities follow politicians, not the populace. It's "our" money "they"'re spending. And we keep paying our taxes, thus spending our lives, like sheep!

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BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

Ustwo

Why doesn't anyone compare costs to what we spend on welfare programs

I've seen various estimates but one number was 434 billion a year on welfare if you combine state and federal spending.

What does that work out to a day?

How is that war on poverty looking?

When can we pull out?

Boy the War seems damn cheap now.

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Kryptoni

If by welfare programs you are including things such as Social Security and Medicare, then yes, the war is cheap. However, I don't consider either one of those programs welfare since we do pay into them every year we are earning until we retire.

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Two Ball Cain?

cj2112

Well we also pay into food stamps and AFDC, does that mean those programs are not welfare?

Kryptoni

I guess a definition of welfare is in order -

Government Welfare is a program or set of programs that provide money, services, or products to individuals and families who are defined as financially poor.

Social Security and Medicare are governmental programs which are ONLY provided to workers who paid into the system during their careers and are only paid out in a proportion to the amount paid into the system.

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Two Ball Cain?

Ustwo

* Medical assistance to low income persons cost $222 billion or 51 percent of total welfare spending.
* Cash, food and housing aid together cost $167 billion or 38 percent of the total.
* Social Services, training, targeted education, and community development aid cost around $47 billion or 11 percent of the total.

Regardless of the number, I think its safe to say we spend far more on welfare programs than the War in Iraq. I just find it interesting that no one wants to talk about those number when talking about spending money on an observatory or the like. Personally I like when the government spends on things like an observatory or even a war, those I think fall under the 'government spending' umbrella. I don't like when they give my money to other people they think need it more for whatever reason.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

tecoyah

The statement in this thread was intended to point out an issue created by war funding....in that as a counrty we cannot support the "extra" programs that tend to benefit the population as a whole, and may to some seem unrequired due to what I see as shortsighted thinking. Dragging well established Gov't programs that are unfortunately a part of this society because of poverty into this discussion is simply a tactic used to avoid the actual thread direction intended.

Is it a good Idea to trade science for War?...because thats what it comes down to.

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

Cynthetiq

really?

is a person any happier today then in 1955? Does household chores get done any faster or cleaner? Is the trade off of better science more expensive healthcare and getting longer life? because those same questions seem to be what it comes down to for me.

personally if I could vote for reducing many programs i would.

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tecoyah

Then I appreciate very much that you are not in a position to guide this country, as I dont really think going backward is a viable course right now.

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

ngdawg

Maybe we could take those getting 'welfare' and put them to work at under-funded things like the observatory.
Does anyone else find it ironic that the same politicians who pound their fists declaring our educational system woefully behind in the sciences are the ones who have the 'power' to support or not support with tax dollars the very things science needs?

uncle phil

think "pork," people...

http://www.auburn.edu/~johnspm/gloss...el_legislation

and if you really dig, we are talking freaking TONS of money...

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"We were wrong, terribly wrong. (We) should not have tried to fight a guerrilla war with conventional military tactics against a foe willing to absorb enormous casualties...in a country lacking the fundamental political stability necessary to conduct effective military and pacification operations. It could not be done and it was not done."
- Robert S. McNamara
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"We will take our napalm and flame throwers out of the land that scarcely knows the use of matches...
We will leave you your small joys and smaller troubles."
- Eugene McCarthy in "Vietnam Message"
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you both get dirty;
the pig likes it.

Ustwo

Lets be honest here, no one involved in propagating this story really gives a shit about the observatory, its anti-war rhetoric.

If you want to complain about screwed up government spending there are far better places to look than the Iraq occupation.

Your intent was to bitch about the war, my intent was to point out your method of bitching was nothing but a smoke screen, and really the two are completely unrelated.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Cynthetiq

who stated anything about going backward? The genie is out of the bottle it is our responsibility to keep it in check.

I don't see why that's such a hard concept to fathom. I don't want to spend more money than I already do. If there's some need for social services, NGOs and NPOs work just fine. There are tens of them in my neighborhood providing many kinds of services, all without affecting me directly. I get to choose what I want to spend my dollars on.

So if something like this is funded by Universities and corporations, GREAT!. I can chose which ones I want to spend my money with. I can shop for the ones that either have the best presentations, provide the best donation give back (tshirt, mug, name etched on side of building,) or even things that I just happen to be interested in or believe in.

Instead I'm relying on people who lobby my representatives, people who's sole job is to bother my representative from dealing with the more important things regarding the state of affairs of this country.

I don't see it as going backwards. I see it as progressive to the point of the ultimate freedom of choice.

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tecoyah

I dont want to spend more money than I have to either, but science is kinda important for advances at this point. so much of the future will depend on understanding and usiong technology that I feel this is the worst possible place to cut funding further. The sciences are the future of this country....and indeed this species. If the University system ciuld do this on its own....I would be thrilled, but thats unlikely.

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

Cynthetiq

Is it? Corporations fund university studies and programs all the time.

The X prizes are interesting ways of getting corporations in the game of discovering and pushing science from driverless vehicles to private space flight. Why does the government have to be involved? Innovation can come just from two guys on sand dunes (Wright Brothers) or two guys in a garage (Hewlett/Packard, Jobs/Wozniak, Page/Brin.)

While items like particle accelerators and radio telescopes have traditionally been funded by governments, there is no reason that private corporations and individuals cannot do this without any aid or direction from governments.

Again, I state that let the private sector do the things that private citizens want to do, and let the government do the things that governments should be doing.

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analog

I agree. There's more pork in this country than at a hog farm, the observatory is being used as a tool to complain about the war.

/not a supporter of the war.