'Honor Killing' in Italy Spurs Quest for Justice - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

albania · 08-25-2007, 10:59 AM

What a sad state of affairs that some people still can justify murder to themselves in this way. I personally can't even begin to comprehend how someone can kill a family member. I'm not a father, but supposing I had a daughter it seems impossible to even think of a hypothetical situation where I would want to harm her. What in the world makes one believe they have the right to dictate how someone else should live their life? It's things such as these that make me, an ardent optimist when it comes to human nature, doubt sometimes.

I found this article on another board; it's is about a month old, specifically it focuses on an "honor" killing of a Pakistani woman in Italy, but it has plenty of other information.

http://www.womensenews.org/article.c...ontext/archive there's a picture of the girl in the link.

article click to show

Lady Sage · 08-25-2007, 12:47 PM

There is so much I could say, but I fear it would bee too emotional and get me into trouble. I shall just say... Rest her soul.

Strange Famous · 08-25-2007, 01:34 PM

I think they reckon that there is about 1 of these a week in the UK - a lot of them never even really get reported cos its just portrayed like the girl ran away. Hard to see how you can come to understand your God in a way that finds honour in slaughtering your own children... but people have a lot of funny ideas. I guess it does seem to be that these idea's are concentrated in certain faiths and certain ethnic communities right now... but above and beyond being an ethnic or a religious issue, I think we do need to say it is a "a person being a degenerate fucking piece of shit issue" first of all.

Fire · 08-25-2007, 07:31 PM

to me the idea of having honor, and family honor is a good thing- what these people are doing, however, goes against what I think honor is about, and dishonors their families- especially the killing of rape victims- WTF sure, I am ok with killing the rapist, and more power to em if they do- but killing a victim to redeem family honor- that is like blaming someone for messing up the family car cause they were hit by a drunk driver..... and I can understand shunning a family member that does not follow the rules of or ascribe to the values that the rest of the family does, but killing them does not make sense to me unless this is one fucked up family - hell, my family has black sheep, and we disowned them like civilized people- this just shows the cultural gap between some of the east and some of the west- we are only getting closer, and its gonna be a bumpy ride ahead indeed........

Lady Sage · 08-25-2007, 07:48 PM

Fire, you fairly well expressed most of my views. On the contrary, I am the family black sheep because of my religious beliefs. They tried the disowning thing but found that they missed my company and it wasnt nearly as bad as they thought it was.

Fire · 08-25-2007, 09:49 PM

we have never disowned someone for religious beliefs- our black sheep are multi state drug traffickers who allowed relatives to support them while claiming to be on hard times... while running a drug running network for boco dinero.... and then getting caught and expecting the family to pay for legal defense - still pisses me off.........

Infinite_Loser · 08-25-2007, 10:04 PM

Here's the thing, though. You're 100% "Westerners". Therefore you can't relate to the family. You might think it's wrong but, then again, you weren't raised in that culture.

Strange Famous · 08-25-2007, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser

Here's the thing, though. You're 100% "Westerners". Therefore you can't relate to the family. You might think it's wrong but, then again, you weren't raised in that culture.

sorry, thats crap. There are basic human standards that apply to everyone - and not killing your children is one of them - which are trangressed here. saying "our culture is that we abuse women and kill them if they disobey the men" cuts absolutely no ice at all. Furthermore, if you want to live in Italy, or England, then you are bound to obey the laws and live within the key moral standards of that country.

Cynthetiq · 08-26-2007, 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

I think they reckon that there is about 1 of these a week in the UK - a lot of them never even really get reported cos its just portrayed like the girl ran away. Hard to see how you can come to understand your God in a way that finds honour in slaughtering your own children... but people have a lot of funny ideas. I guess it does seem to be that these idea's are concentrated in certain faiths and certain ethnic communities right now... but above and beyond being an ethnic or a religious issue, I think we do need to say it is a "a person being a degenerate fucking piece of shit issue" first of all.

I don't think it's too far a stretch from the fact that you accept someone robbing someone to someone else accepting that their death is honorable reclaiming them from their dishonor.

I think that crimes on their face are deplorable but if this is how the community polices itself within their own belief systems and structures, sucks, but it is what it is. People hiding their stuff behind religious beliefs doesn't make it any more right.

Strange Famous · 08-26-2007, 07:23 AM

under some circumstances killing a man may be acceptable (morally), but killing a woman or a child never is.

Cynthetiq · 08-26-2007, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

under some circumstances killing a man may be acceptable (morally), but killing a woman or a child never is.

so if they are harming you in some fashion, it's okay to let them either kick the shit outta you, kill or maim you since you state that it is NEVER acceptable.

Strange Famous · 08-26-2007, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

so if they are harming you in some fashion, it's okay to let them either kick the shit outta you, kill or maim you since you state that it is NEVER acceptable.

how many cases have you ever heard of a women attacking a man physically and kicking the shit out of him or maiming him? Im not talking about getting your face slapped, but straight beaten.

Yeah, Im sure it does happen, but it is exceptionally rare - like a ratio of 1/1000 prolly compared to male violence against women.

If a woman was attacking me in some fashion, I would do the least possible to stop her and get away - I dont think its likely to be killing her. I also don't think its very likely that Im ever gonna get attacked in that way by a woman - not because Im some kind of tough guy, but it just isnt in female nature to be violent. If that sounds sexist, thats my view of the world based on my experiences and knowledge. Yes - some women can be stronger than an average man or stronger than me - and there might be rare cases of women being violent (in the same way as some men feel like they want to dress as women or have a sex change because the feel they are the wrong gender) - but the essential female character is nuturing and caring, not destructivve and violent.

And I'm also not saying its open game - that killing a guy is somehow an acceptable thing. Just that in some rare cases I think that you can argue that the guy deserved it & that doesnt apply to children (because they are not responsible fully for their actions) and it doesnt apply to women - because women are mostly not capable of the kind of things that would make some deserve to be killed.

Cynthetiq · 08-26-2007, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

how many cases have you ever heard of a women attacking a man physically and kicking the shit out of him or maiming him? Im not talking about getting your face slapped, but straight beaten.

Yeah, Im sure it does happen, but it is exceptionally rare - like a ratio of 1/1000 prolly compared to male violence against women.

happens plenty enough. and if it's me, it isn't pleasant. you on the other hand, of course, you may find that it's acceptable or permissable, but I however do not find any kind of assault acceptable.

i guess that's why women prisons are so empty.

so because it's rarer that makes it okay in your book?

mixedmedia · 08-26-2007, 08:40 AM

Well, to take it back a little closer to OP-ville, I will agree with IL in that, even though this is a horrible, deplorable thing that is not acceptable under any circumstances, it is an act that is so far removed from Western cultural mores that we cannot relate to it on our terms. This is a practice that has been prevalent not only in Muslim society, but Hindu, as well.

Strange Famous · 08-26-2007, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mixedmedia

Well, to take it back a little closer to OP-ville, I will agree with IL in that, even though this is a horrible, deplorable thing that is not acceptable under any circumstances, it is an act that is so far removed from Western cultural mores that we cannot relate to it on our terms. This is a practice that has been prevalent not only in Muslim society, but Hindu, as well.

it is a practice which contradicts HUMAN standards of decency... I dont see it as having anything to do with society. We DO have a right to intervene.

Should we stand by and watch genocide - in the 1940's should the Allies have said "well, in Nazi society, however wrong it is to us, it is ok to kill people for being Jewish or Romany or homosexual...we really have no right to enforce our morality on them"???

mixedmedia · 08-26-2007, 08:50 AM

Have I said we don't have a right to intervene?

Strange Famous · 08-26-2007, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mixedmedia

Have I said we don't have a right to intervene?

you are saying we cannot relate to it on our terms, and I would assume the extension of that is we cannot properly judge it. I am saying that we relate to it on human terms, and judge it thusly.

Cynthetiq · 08-26-2007, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

you are saying we cannot relate to it on our terms, and I would assume the extension of that is we cannot properly judge it. I am saying that we relate to it on human terms, and judge it thusly.

ah the assume bit... you know the drill, make ass, you... me...

LoganSnake · 08-26-2007, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

it is a practice which contradicts HUMAN standards of decency... I dont see it as having anything to do with society. We DO have a right to intervene.

Should we stand by and watch genocide - in the 1940's should the Allies have said "well, in Nazi society, however wrong it is to us, it is ok to kill people for being Jewish or Romany or homosexual...we really have no right to enforce our morality on them"???

No, you don't have any right to intervene because you'll be pushing your own morals and standards shaped by your society and culture. Hence, you have no idea what it's like to be a part of theirs. It's an ancient practice, so it isn't anything new or overly shocking. Comparing Nazis to this case is completely off base. One was done because of the insanity of one man and this, as I've said before is an ancient tradition practiced by more than one culture. Notice how both the mother and the father as well as other members of the family deemed it right. Are they insane? Not human? No, they were simply brought up under a different value system than you. Their government will take care of it.

Strange Famous · 08-26-2007, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoganSnake

No, you don't have any right to intervene because you'll be pushing your own morals and standards shaped by your society and culture. Hence, you have no idea what it's like to be a part of theirs. It's an ancient practice, so it isn't anything new or overly shocking. Comparing Nazis to this case is completely off base. One was done because of the insanity of one man and this, as I've said before is an ancient tradition practiced by more than one culture. Notice how both the mother and the father as well as other members of the family deemed it right. Are they insane? Not human? No, they were simply brought up under a different value system than you. Their government will take care of it.

one man? Hitler hardly could have killed 8 million people on his own, could he? I dont believe he ever killed 1 person by his own hand.

And the practice of murdering a child is inhuman, and is insane. All kinds of murder are an ancient as human society and all of them are prohibited. Islam does not encourage or condone parents killing their children... it is a gross perversion of Islam that is practised by these people. It is not the standard of their society. The majority of Muslims condemn these actions as do the majority of non-Muslims.

The appropriate treatment for this killer is not to be excused with some kind of absolute relativism... it is to that he should be hanged by the neck until death.

mixedmedia · 08-26-2007, 09:01 AM

I am saying that we cannot approach it on our terms. As if this were something occurring in the suburbs of Cleveland, Ohio. We are looking at cultures where, although it is not as widespread as it was a few centuries ago, it is still somewhat understood because of cultural standards that we cannot relate to. So to sit here and say that it is wrong as if we were talking about it within our own cultural conceptions and standards isn't taking the entire picture into consideration.

Personally, I would love more than anything to see people stop killing each other and treating each other with brutality, period. But sitting here wagging my finger saying 'they shouldn't do that, it's just wrong' would be oblivious to the complexities involved that make people act the way they do.

That's all I'm saying.

Strange Famous · 08-26-2007, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

ah the assume bit... you know the drill, make ass, you... me...

how can one judge what one cannot understand?

it is not a baseless assumption, it is a logical extension of the argument.

mixedmedia · 08-26-2007, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

how can one judge what one cannot understand?

it is not a baseless assumption, it is a logical extension of the argument.

a logical extension of your argument...not mine

LoganSnake · 08-26-2007, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

one man? Hitler hardly could have killed 8 million people on his own, could he? I dont believe he ever killed 1 person by his own hand.

No, but he was good at convincing people. I'm fascinated by his oratory abilities which were almost hypnotic. They killed at his wish. Hence, one man.

Willravel · 08-26-2007, 09:05 AM

As someone who not only is friends with many devout Muslims, but has read the Qu'ran a great deal, I can tell you with great confidence that this barbaric behavior is not Islam anymore than burning a woman at the stake for witchcraft is Christianity.

Strange Famous · 08-26-2007, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mixedmedia

I am saying that we cannot approach it on our terms. As if this were something occurring in the suburbs of Cleveland, Ohio. We are looking at cultures where, although it is not as widespread as it was a few centuries ago, it is still somewhat understood because of cultural standards that we cannot relate to. So to sit here and say that it is wrong as if we were talking about it within our own cultural conceptions and standards isn't taking the entire picture into consideration.

Personally, I would love more than anything to see people stop killing each other and treating each other with brutality, period. But sitting here wagging my finger saying 'they shouldn't do that, it's just wrong' would be oblivious to the complexities involved that make people act the way they do.

That's all I'm saying.

The one part I agree with is that our condemnation means little to someone who has the mindset to do something like this... they are already operating in a place that is outside of human decency or true religion.

I though am arguing that we should not just condemn them, we should stop them - through physical force if other methods do not work. Since you feel that I am putting words into your mouth, I wont try to say whether I think thats whay you call for as well.

mixedmedia · 08-26-2007, 09:21 AM

Well, why can't we stop child abuse with physical force?

You can't stop it with physical force unless you can see what is going inside people's homes.

In most, if not all, countries where this is practiced it is illegal. From what I understand, enforcement is a problem. Because of the reasons I stated above. What needs to change is people's attitudes and just like we haven't been able to stop people with force from beating and killing their children in this country, for much less banal reasons than 'honor,' you will not be able to stop this by force.

Strange Famous · 08-26-2007, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mixedmedia

Well, why can't we stop child abuse with physical force?

I agree it isnt easy, and I agree that especially in immigrant communities which can be insular and feel threatened by the outsiders - the battle for hearts and minds is absolutely key... but we should try.

FoolThemAll · 08-26-2007, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoganSnake

No, you don't have any right to intervene because you'll be pushing your own morals and standards shaped by your society and culture.

It's a part of our culture to intervene when another culture condones or encourages unchecked atrocities (well, sometimes it is). I like that part of our culture and I'd rather not have a more isolationist culture pushing its morals and standards on us.

(But yeah, Italy should be able to handle this one on their own.)

LoganSnake · 08-26-2007, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoolThemAll

It's a part of our culture to intervene when another culture condones or encourages unchecked atrocities (well, sometimes it is). I like that part of our culture and I'd rather not have a more isolationist culture pushing its morals and standards on us.

(But yeah, Italy should be able to handle this one on their own.)

I don't think they're pushing anything on us. In fact, I didn't see it mentioned anywhere where the family said anything about it being the right thing to do everywhere. They were acting within their value system, nothing more.

FoolThemAll · 08-26-2007, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoganSnake

I don't think they're pushing anything on us. In fact, I didn't see it mentioned anywhere where the family said anything about it being the right thing to do everywhere. They were acting within their value system, nothing more.

By "a more isolationist culture", I meant the hypothetical in which another country sought to prevent us from intervening in the matters of a country with gross, culturally-accepted human rights violations. But you weren't necessarily arguing for taking action against an interventionist culture and my comment was already kind of a tangent from the OP - Italy can handle this on its own - so to tie it back to the OP: it's not only morally permissible for the Italian government to interfere in their value system, it's morally essential.

I don't *think* you were disagreeing with that. I'd just add that I wouldn't limit such intervention to internal atrocities.

LoganSnake · 08-26-2007, 11:18 AM

The only thing I'm not disagreeing with is that Italy should interfere with their law system since the laws were broken in Italy.

Strange Famous · 08-26-2007, 11:54 AM

the key point I think you are missing Logan is that this is NOT anyone's culture.

Killing your kids is only the accepted culture or murderers. As Will correctly said, Islam does NOT make this acceptable, it condemns it. Any true believer would condemn the murder of a child in this fashion. I dont know a lot about the Hindi religion, but I would be shocked it it condones killing your kids. Yes, there are snatches you can take out of the bible that can support murder and so on if you view them out of context & and prollt the Qu'ran too (although I accept that the Qu'ran can only be read in Arabic truly which I cannot do) - but the whole "Thou shalt not kill" thing is pretty universal among people of the book at least.

There is not a whole coherent culture of people who support murdering children who fall in love with someone the parents dont like... it is the action of animals, of sub humans.

Lady Sage · 08-26-2007, 11:59 AM

I would like for just one person to tell me how killing a woman because she was raped OR wanting to better her life by getting a college degree is an acceptable behavior.

Perhaps we should kill the men in her family instead for failing to protect her from rape or provide for her in a manner so that she didnt feel the need to go out and earn her own way.

Ourcrazymodern? · 08-26-2007, 12:14 PM

I killed my daughter in June and her body hasn't been found-primarily because she's still walking around.

People have always been stupid, at least since we came up with the concept. When we'll gain the will to be less so is still up in the air.

LoganSnake · 08-26-2007, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

the key point I think you are missing Logan is that this is NOT anyone's culture.

Killing your kids is only the accepted culture or murderers. As Will correctly said, Islam does NOT make this acceptable, it condemns it. Any true believer would condemn the murder of a child in this fashion. I dont know a lot about the Hindi religion, but I would be shocked it it condones killing your kids. Yes, there are snatches you can take out of the bible that can support murder and so on if you view them out of context & and prollt the Qu'ran too (although I accept that the Qu'ran can only be read in Arabic truly which I cannot do) - but the whole "Thou shalt not kill" thing is pretty universal among people of the book at least.

There is not a whole coherent culture of people who support murdering children who fall in love with someone the parents dont like... it is the action of animals, of sub humans.

I know two Hindu girls who had to hide their non-Hindu boyfriends in fear of being sent back to India for an arranged marriage, or worse - disowned by their parents. It doesn't unnecessarily have to be a religious issue, but one of preserving tradition or honor in the family. The honor system is ancient and I partly agree with it. Not to the point of murder, but it has its values.

Strange Famous · 08-26-2007, 12:27 PM

well... I dont deny that there are maniac Hindu's... but I am saying I am unsure if the Hindu religion endorses this - or if it it is just pure PERSONAL sexism of certain louts which is unchecked by a decentralised society. There are maniac Christians and maniac Muslims and maniac atheists too... but their religion isnt the key factor in making them mad.

LoganSnake · 08-26-2007, 01:59 PM

While I don't deny that sexism does exist in those societies, men face the same fate if they stray from the family value system. It is just how they live and what they believe in. You're not seeing it from their point of you, but trying to reason it with what you believe in, which makes it sound barbaric.

Strange Famous · 08-26-2007, 02:42 PM

again... I am not claiming that Western values should dominate Eastern ones. I am claiming to represent - on certain things - human values which apply to all people. I dont even buy the claim that there is no LAW above or below 60 degrees.

Fast Forward · 08-27-2007, 01:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by albania

'Honor Killing' in Italy Spurs Quest for Justice

"Quest for justice"? That's almost funny because "justice" is exactly what the Arabs think they've achieved by "killing their own".

We've got such maniacs all over Europe - they're all muslim Arabs and Somalis of course. When our police step in and send them to prison they claim that we are racist because we are not "respecting their culture"!

To think that we spend so much of our tax money to bring those primitve baboons to our country because our Christian hearts don't want them to perish in the very same situation they're taking with them to our country!

Baaa! Our prisons are much too good for them. Send them back home into a cross-fire of their own making!!!

08-25-2007, 10:59 AM	#1 (permalink)
albania Psycho	'Honor Killing' in Italy Spurs Quest for Justice What a sad state of affairs that some people still can justify murder to themselves in this way. I personally can't even begin to comprehend how someone can kill a family member. I'm not a father, but supposing I had a daughter it seems impossible to even think of a hypothetical situation where I would want to harm her. What in the world makes one believe they have the right to dictate how someone else should live their life? It's things such as these that make me, an ardent optimist when it comes to human nature, doubt sometimes. I found this article on another board; it's is about a month old, specifically it focuses on an "honor" killing of a Pakistani woman in Italy, but it has plenty of other information. http://www.womensenews.org/article.c...ontext/archive there's a picture of the girl in the link. article click to show 'Honor Killing' in Italy Spurs Quest for Justice Run Date: 08/06/07 By Angela Boskovitch BRESCIA, Italy (WOMENSENEWS)--When the preliminary hearing in the "honor killing" trial for the murder of 20-year-old Hina Saleem adjourned in late June, Moroccan-born Souad Sbai was on the scene. "We want justice for Hina and we ask that her dreams of freedom and her sacrifice should not be forgotten," said Sbai, president of the Rome-based Italian Association of Moroccan Women. Then she and other demonstrators outside the courthouse carried white lilies to Saleem's gravestone in a part of the cemetery designated for Muslims. The defendants in this case--Saleem's father and three male relatives--have chosen an abbreviated legal procedure. The trial will reconvene on Oct. 25 for a day of witness testimony, followed by closing arguments to be delivered on Oct. 26. Saleem's father has admitted his guilt to the police. Despite the confession, as yet none of the four defendants has been formally convicted. The defendants will receive a one-third reduction of any sentence under the arrangement with the court. If they receive life imprisonment, the sentence would be reduced to 30 years. The sentence could be even further reduced resulting from "extenuating circumstances" as defined by the judge. The Italian Association of Moroccan Women is composed of Moroccan and Italian women working to reduce gender-based violence in immigrant communities and at the same time promote Muslim social integration. Vowing to be present throughout the rest of the proceedings, members of the group portray the case as a stab at its own heart. 'I Am Hina' At the hearing on June 28 the group bused women from around Italy to demonstrate outside the courthouse and hold up placards saying "Io sono Hina," which translates to "I am Hina." The women were joined by the imam of Turin, Abdellah Mechnoune. "Having Western customs doesn't violate any rule in the Quran," Mechnoune said to reporters in condemning the murder. Hina Saleem was found by police Aug. 11, 2006, wrapped in bags and buried in a shallow grave in her family's backyard in Brescia, a city in the northern Italian region of Lombardy, with a gash in her throat inflicted by a meat knife. Her mother, in Pakistan at the time of the murder, acknowledged to police that her husband had killed Saleem who "did not behave like a good Muslim girl." Saleem's father--a legal resident of Italy since 1989 who worked in a factory and also ran a kebab stand--was arrested Aug. 14, 2006. Unrepentant, he told police: "My daughter was a prostitute, living with that Italian. I killed her out of rage." The prosecution alleges that Saleem's family chose to murder her after careful deliberations over her Western-style behavior and refusal to submit to an arranged marriage. Saleem lived with Giuseppe Tampini, a local carpenter, and secretly worked as a waitress in a bar. In May, Moroccan activist Sbai petitioned the court to allow the Italian Association of Moroccan Women, along with her companion Tampini, to act as the injured parties in the case. Under Italian law, this meant that the group could collect damages and could provide a closing statement in court. Duty to Victims Sbai called the offer to act as plaintiff in the case "a duty towards Hina and the thousands of Hinas of this world." The court, however, denied Sbai's request. The judge said the murdered woman and her killers were Pakistani, therefore a Moroccan women's organization had not directly suffered from the crime. Tampini, as the boyfriend and cohabitant, will be permitted to act as a plaintiff when the trial reconvenes on Oct. 24. Sbai, who's resided in Italy for 27 years, also sits on a board that advises Italy's Ministry of the Interior about Islam. While promoting integration, Sbai seeks to highlight the best of North African cultures and Islamic teaching. She says the case has fueled anti-Muslim sentiments. At the preliminary hearings demonstrators with her group were focused on stopping any more slayings of a similar nature in Italy. But two men also outside the courthouse held up a sign saying "Hina: Victim of Islam." Dounia Ettaib, vice president of the Italian Association of Moroccan Women, refuted any linkage of Islam with the murder. "Hina's father applied his own inhuman, unreligious laws," she told Italy's newspaper L'Occidentale after the hearing. Ettaib says that Islam cannot be blamed for the crime and that women such as Saleem are victims of terrorism and a false understanding of religion. Ettaib was later assaulted and threatened by two young Moroccan men in Milan and now has a bodyguard. Suspicions Spur Killings "Honor killings" are committed against rape victims, women suspected of having premarital sex and women thought to have committed adultery, according to UNIFEM, the United Nations Development Fund for Women. The women are typically killed by male relatives in an attempt to restore the family's honor, which they believe was violated. Such killings may also occur to settle property or financial disputes. They occur in Pakistan, Turkey, Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Lebanon, Iran, Yemen, Morocco and other Mediterranean and Gulf countries, immigrant communities in Europe and the United States, and in Brazil. Honor killings are not exclusive to Islam. In the past year such crimes occurred in a Kurdish Yezidi community in Iraq and in a Christian family in Ramallah. Honor killings are also part of Italy's own history, where the idea of "honor" was an admitted legal defense until 1981. Prior to its reversal, an article existed in the Italian Criminal Code that provided a reduced penalty of imprisonment of only three to seven years for a man who killed his wife, sister or daughter to vindicate his or his family's honor. Honor killings have also shown up more recently in the news. In London, a 70-year-old woman and her son were convicted July 26 for the honor killing of Surjit Kaur Athwal, who was murdered after threatening to get a divorce. Both the woman and her son face life sentences in prison. The verdict came a week after a British court concluded proceedings in the sexual torture and murder of a Kurdish woman, Banaz Mahmod, at the hands of her father and uncle, who both received life sentences. A third man involved in the honor killing was sentenced to 17 years in prison; two others are still at large. In Italy, Giovanni Morabito, a 24-year-old member of a powerful Calabrian mafia clan, shot his unmarried sister in March 2006 for having a child out of wedlock and for apparently wanting to leave the family after earning her law degree. "She had a child by a man she was not married to," Morabito told police. "It is a question of honor. I am not sorry. On the contrary, I am proud of what I did."

08-25-2007, 12:47 PM	#2 (permalink)
Lady Sage Mistress of Mayhem Location: Canton, Ohio	There is so much I could say, but I fear it would bee too emotional and get me into trouble. I shall just say... Rest her soul. __________________ If only closed minds came with closed mouths. Minds are like parachutes, they function best when open. It`s Easier to Change a Condom Than a Diaper Yes, the rumors are true... I actually AM a Witch.

08-25-2007, 01:34 PM	#3 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	I think they reckon that there is about 1 of these a week in the UK - a lot of them never even really get reported cos its just portrayed like the girl ran away. Hard to see how you can come to understand your God in a way that finds honour in slaughtering your own children... but people have a lot of funny ideas. I guess it does seem to be that these idea's are concentrated in certain faiths and certain ethnic communities right now... but above and beyond being an ethnic or a religious issue, I think we do need to say it is a "a person being a degenerate fucking piece of shit issue" first of all. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

08-25-2007, 07:31 PM	#4 (permalink)
Fire Warrior Smith Location: missouri	to me the idea of having honor, and family honor is a good thing- what these people are doing, however, goes against what I think honor is about, and dishonors their families- especially the killing of rape victims- WTF sure, I am ok with killing the rapist, and more power to em if they do- but killing a victim to redeem family honor- that is like blaming someone for messing up the family car cause they were hit by a drunk driver..... and I can understand shunning a family member that does not follow the rules of or ascribe to the values that the rest of the family does, but killing them does not make sense to me unless this is one fucked up family - hell, my family has black sheep, and we disowned them like civilized people- this just shows the cultural gap between some of the east and some of the west- we are only getting closer, and its gonna be a bumpy ride ahead indeed........ __________________ Thought the harder, Heart the bolder, Mood the more as our might lessens

08-25-2007, 07:48 PM	#5 (permalink)
Lady Sage Mistress of Mayhem Location: Canton, Ohio	Fire, you fairly well expressed most of my views. On the contrary, I am the family black sheep because of my religious beliefs. They tried the disowning thing but found that they missed my company and it wasnt nearly as bad as they thought it was. __________________ If only closed minds came with closed mouths. Minds are like parachutes, they function best when open. It`s Easier to Change a Condom Than a Diaper Yes, the rumors are true... I actually AM a Witch.

08-25-2007, 09:49 PM	#6 (permalink)
Fire Warrior Smith Location: missouri	we have never disowned someone for religious beliefs- our black sheep are multi state drug traffickers who allowed relatives to support them while claiming to be on hard times... while running a drug running network for boco dinero.... and then getting caught and expecting the family to pay for legal defense - still pisses me off......... __________________ Thought the harder, Heart the bolder, Mood the more as our might lessens

08-25-2007, 10:04 PM	#7 (permalink)
Infinite_Loser Junkie Location: Lake Mary, FL	Here's the thing, though. You're 100% "Westerners". Therefore you can't relate to the family. You might think it's wrong but, then again, you weren't raised in that culture. __________________ I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

08-26-2007, 07:23 AM	#10 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	under some circumstances killing a man may be acceptable (morally), but killing a woman or a child never is. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

08-26-2007, 08:40 AM	#14 (permalink)
mixedmedia has all her shots. Location: Florida	Well, to take it back a little closer to OP-ville, I will agree with IL in that, even though this is a horrible, deplorable thing that is not acceptable under any circumstances, it is an act that is so far removed from Western cultural mores that we cannot relate to it on our terms. This is a practice that has been prevalent not only in Muslim society, but Hindu, as well. __________________ Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

08-26-2007, 08:50 AM	#16 (permalink)
mixedmedia has all her shots. Location: Florida	Have I said we don't have a right to intervene? __________________ Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

08-26-2007, 09:01 AM	#21 (permalink)
mixedmedia has all her shots. Location: Florida	I am saying that we cannot approach it on our terms. As if this were something occurring in the suburbs of Cleveland, Ohio. We are looking at cultures where, although it is not as widespread as it was a few centuries ago, it is still somewhat understood because of cultural standards that we cannot relate to. So to sit here and say that it is wrong as if we were talking about it within our own cultural conceptions and standards isn't taking the entire picture into consideration. Personally, I would love more than anything to see people stop killing each other and treating each other with brutality, period. But sitting here wagging my finger saying 'they shouldn't do that, it's just wrong' would be oblivious to the complexities involved that make people act the way they do. That's all I'm saying. __________________ Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

08-26-2007, 09:05 AM	#25 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	As someone who not only is friends with many devout Muslims, but has read the Qu'ran a great deal, I can tell you with great confidence that this barbaric behavior is not Islam anymore than burning a woman at the stake for witchcraft is Christianity.

08-26-2007, 09:21 AM	#27 (permalink)
mixedmedia has all her shots. Location: Florida	Well, why can't we stop child abuse with physical force? You can't stop it with physical force unless you can see what is going inside people's homes. In most, if not all, countries where this is practiced it is illegal. From what I understand, enforcement is a problem. Because of the reasons I stated above. What needs to change is people's attitudes and just like we haven't been able to stop people with force from beating and killing their children in this country, for much less banal reasons than 'honor,' you will not be able to stop this by force. __________________ Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

08-26-2007, 11:18 AM	#32 (permalink)
LoganSnake We work alone Location: Cake Town	The only thing I'm not disagreeing with is that Italy should interfere with their law system since the laws were broken in Italy. __________________ Maturity is knowing you were an idiot in the past. Wisdom is knowing that you'll be an idiot in the future. Common sense is knowing that you should try not to be an idiot now. - J. Jacques

08-26-2007, 11:54 AM	#33 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	the key point I think you are missing Logan is that this is NOT anyone's culture. Killing your kids is only the accepted culture or murderers. As Will correctly said, Islam does NOT make this acceptable, it condemns it. Any true believer would condemn the murder of a child in this fashion. I dont know a lot about the Hindi religion, but I would be shocked it it condones killing your kids. Yes, there are snatches you can take out of the bible that can support murder and so on if you view them out of context & and prollt the Qu'ran too (although I accept that the Qu'ran can only be read in Arabic truly which I cannot do) - but the whole "Thou shalt not kill" thing is pretty universal among people of the book at least. There is not a whole coherent culture of people who support murdering children who fall in love with someone the parents dont like... it is the action of animals, of sub humans. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

08-26-2007, 11:59 AM	#34 (permalink)
Lady Sage Mistress of Mayhem Location: Canton, Ohio	I would like for just one person to tell me how killing a woman because she was raped OR wanting to better her life by getting a college degree is an acceptable behavior. Perhaps we should kill the men in her family instead for failing to protect her from rape or provide for her in a manner so that she didnt feel the need to go out and earn her own way. __________________ If only closed minds came with closed mouths. Minds are like parachutes, they function best when open. It`s Easier to Change a Condom Than a Diaper Yes, the rumors are true... I actually AM a Witch.

08-26-2007, 12:14 PM	#35 (permalink)
Ourcrazymodern? still, wondering. Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge	I killed my daughter in June and her body hasn't been found-primarily because she's still walking around. People have always been stupid, at least since we came up with the concept. When we'll gain the will to be less so is still up in the air. __________________ BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

08-26-2007, 12:27 PM	#37 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	well... I dont deny that there are maniac Hindu's... but I am saying I am unsure if the Hindu religion endorses this - or if it it is just pure PERSONAL sexism of certain louts which is unchecked by a decentralised society. There are maniac Christians and maniac Muslims and maniac atheists too... but their religion isnt the key factor in making them mad. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

08-26-2007, 01:59 PM	#38 (permalink)
LoganSnake We work alone Location: Cake Town	While I don't deny that sexism does exist in those societies, men face the same fate if they stray from the family value system. It is just how they live and what they believe in. You're not seeing it from their point of you, but trying to reason it with what you believe in, which makes it sound barbaric. __________________ Maturity is knowing you were an idiot in the past. Wisdom is knowing that you'll be an idiot in the future. Common sense is knowing that you should try not to be an idiot now. - J. Jacques

08-26-2007, 02:42 PM	#39 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	again... I am not claiming that Western values should dominate Eastern ones. I am claiming to represent - on certain things - human values which apply to all people. I dont even buy the claim that there is no LAW above or below 60 degrees. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas Last edited by Strange Famous; 08-26-2007 at 02:44 PM..