I tend to be a pretty positive person in general, and I don't think I do much "complaining", but I definitely do my fair share of pointing out when I find things disagreeable. I think "complaining" is more akin to expressing fault in something without any suggestion as to how it can be fixed, or in a way that suggests you don't care to improve the situation, just weigh in with your negative opinion.

I don't disagree with this in some cases. But to be a fair, a lot of traits such as negativity and positivity are not choices. Brain chemistry lends to these thinking patterns just as much as environment and willpower in many cases. Not everyone can just make themselves think positively.

I think, perhaps, you've taken it a few inches too far. Certainly brain chemistry allows for deviation from the norm, but I wouldn't say that 'some people cannot make themselves think positively' (implied by not everyone can). It makes much harder, yes, but not physically (or emotionally) impossible. I know of no "disorder" - even bipolar disorder and "clinical" depression which makes happy thought impossible.

I didn't say that happy thoughts were impossible for some people. What I meant is that some people cannot say to themselves, 'I'm just not going to worry about that' and do it. In cases of bipolar disorder and clinical depression pharmaceuticals are most often prescribed to correct these chemical imbalances in the brain. They don't do it through willpower alone.

Erm, not a discussion to get into with Jinn. :)

pffft. everyone is entitled to their opinion. :)

Interesting replies from everyone.

I can agree that there are a few people that are chemically imbalanced but I really think (despite the upswing in prescriptions for prozac and xanax, etc) that they are in the vast minority.

By and large most who just complain are people who are saying that they don't want to solve the problem.

Saying, "I don't have enough time" really just means that you aren't willing to make something a priority over something else.

Saying, "I don't have enough money" is just saying you aren't willing to do whatever it takes to earn that money...

Saying, "I don't don't like the way someone does something" means you aren't willing to do it right and set a better example.

Complaining is easy. Rolling up your sleeves and tackling the problem is hard.

there is this naive perkiness concerning class here, the kind of thing that confuses the possibility that you have of getting into a car and driving from one spatial expression of social class in the states to another with class mobility. its a version of the stuff that garrison keilor makes fun of whe he introduces lake woebegone, the place where "everyone is above average"....it doesnt say much of anything about class from an analytic viewpoint, but says a whole lot about how class is staged ideologically in the states.

ideologically in the marxist sense of the term, the crudest marxist sense, the one that means "false consciousness".

on the other hand, it is i suppose possible to live entirely within that ideology. if it wasnt, it'd just collapse.

so when i see these "whaddya going to do?" memes, i kinda laugh.
if you need them to maintain a certain optimism, then go for it i guess.

on the other hand, when i think about making stuff as a device to maintain curiousity about the world, i am engaging in an act of sublimation (freudian term. warning will robinson) as well. and while at the political level, i can say that i prefer one form of sublimation to another and can present a raft of arguments to back it up, emotionally i am not sure which one is better really. or even if the question of which is better makes any sense.

basically, i think strange famous is right above.

but this is not an actual conversation about class as a category: its about maintaining a distance on what you find around you that you think wrong or abhorrent so that you dont make what you think or say self-defeating because you become a vacuum, a tedious element in the great "everything sucks school," mister or ms buzzkill, the drag at every event.

This interests me. I wonder, since we don't hear about it in the way we hear about the negativity: are there people whose brain chemistry won't allow them to think negative thoughts? Are there some people who are unable to experience anger or sadness due to brain chemistry?

Well, I am not sure about anger and sadness, but I know there are people who unable to feel empathically. I would guess yes. I would say the manic side of bi-polar disorder might come pretty close to that...

And just to clarify, I am not suggesting that there are people who feel just one emotion their entire lives. Just that there are people who not fully in control of how their brain processes the chemicals that engender emotional responses. I think this is fairly established information that I can find if need be.

Not being from the UK, I can't fully appreciate how class can effect a way of life... that said, I didn't grow up in the Canadian middle class. I grew up on the "wrong side of the tracks". My Mom and Dad would be working class by just about every definition there is and yet, I have managed to get out of it, mostly by not realizing I was in that situation. It isn't part of how I define myself.

I wonder how it would have been to be raised always having my station in life imposed upon me (thing working class or lower caste positions in life). Would it truly make a difference to have someone continually putting you in your place?

I have trouble imagining settling for less that what I want in life (but then what I want isn't really all that material).

hehe, one of my faults is this. I think that if I can do it anyone can and this is something that drives a lot of people up the wall. I don't view myself as anyone special or with superhuman traits. I'm just a person that has problems and works to get them fixed or improved.

I was diagnosed with depression 5 years ago. I was the most negative person in the world. I wouldn't even get out of bed for awhile. I realized that what I was doing was destructive to my marriage, my career, and myself. With some support from JJ, I got into therapy and fought against meds. I did give in and get on them for about 9 months just to clear my head to be able to deal with the issues.

Point of the story: I was choosing to let circumstances from the past, present, and future to make me feel depressed. Once I realized that everyone has issues and problems, good times and bad times, I was able to choose to look at the positive things and after some hard work and a couple of years, I got better. So it is a choice and even with depression, it was still a choice. I still chose to be depressed in Chicago. I am choosing to be happy here. Could I have been more positive in Chicago?...yep, but it was the harder choice and it took a lot of energy for me to be that way.

Now that was me and that's when I say I drive people crazy and I'm a bit over the top judgmental. I'm working on this, I'm constantly working on improving myself. But I guess I still sometimes lose patience easily when I know that I've done it and have seen other people close to me do it. But I'm not naive enough to realize that there are some people worse off and that do have mental illnesses that need medical attention. However, if that's the case then get medical help But then there is the whole medical care that costs an arm and a leg even if you have insurance. Then those that don't have insurance....it is a huge problem. I don't know.

However, mental illnesses weren't the OP. It was just about negativity and complaining of 'normal' people. I still believe that is a choice. Some people don't like challenges or things that are hard to do and slip into the easy choice.

I agree. There are many people who just fall into the habit of complaining for various reasons, when they could choose to do otherwise.

But, you know what? As long as they are not standing in my office, I don't give a damn. :lol:

I certainly agree. It's just that Jinn made a whole thread about his opinion of depression a while back (I'm not sure if you were around then, can't remember how far back it was) and a lot of us argued about the whole brain chemistry vs. bootstraps-pulling-up idea... and it wore everyone out. At least, it wore me out. :lol:

it's really quite difficult to disentangle what is chemically driven from what is caused by other things. sometimes i think that there is no necessary distinction, that what amounts to a distinction is generated by effects: if you cant function, then there is a problem and while a diagnosis might be in a way arbitrary, at the same time it doesnt really matter if the results of it (that is the treatment, the therapy) enables you to function better (or at all).

i know alot of folk who have been at one point or another driven to the point of having to get help like this, and my understanding of the treatments is that it is often the act of going through the therapy itself that really helps.
i am very susipicious of the hmo-style substitution of chemicals for therapy simply because it is more cost-effective. i think that is wrong.

but it seems to me that there is a hard distinction between "being negative" and chemically driven depression, and that distinction centers on general functionality. and that is not really for other people to judge. i might find x or y to be a serious drag to be around, but that doesnt equal a diagnosis.

Hell, it wore me out and I didn't even respond to that thread.

For the record and for the continuity of this discussion, I do believe that people are pre-disposed to depression and circumstances can cause a person to suffer from it, much like someone can be predisposed to alcoholism, but doesn't necessarily mean that alcohol will become a problem for them. I believe that people with a pre-disposition for depression are much more susceptible to negative influences. The only problem is that I have no evidence to back this up, have no training whatsoever, and only have my opinion to go on.

On the other hand, people like shesus' grandmother, who isn't clinically depressed but always seems to find the negative in every situation, are the people who drain me to the point of insanity.

I don't have time to backread this whole thread right now, but I saw the topic and it reminded me of an article I saw the other day on one of my favorite websites, lifehack.com, called "How to Stop Complaining", written by Steve Pavlina.

Here is the direct link to the article --

http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/200...p-complaining/

I really dont want to come across as insulting and I hope I am not. You may have a word that means class to you, and that means class in the context of your life - by all means. When I say clas. you DO NOT know what I mean, you DO NOT know what it feels like. There is no class in America. There is stratification, and wealth that is passed through family lines of course... there is some racism, some snobbishness, and all the rest of it... but the street that I grew up in; the working mans club my grandfather drank in, my father drank in, I drank in; the mothers we all had... these things are impossible in America.

Strange Famous - So tell us how it is. You hold this as some major mystery - I could also argue that you, not being from the US, may not have a true appreciation for how things are here, and if it IS actually possible that we are able to commiserate and relate more closely than you might think.

I would be curious to see what other folks residing in the UK could chime in on this issue and give their insight.

SF read post #51 where I say much the same thing.

That said, what is to stop you from leaving the UK for somewhere else? I know it's difficult but it isn't impossible.

SF read post #51 where I say much the same thing.

That said, what is to stop you from leaving the UK for somewhere else? I know it's difficult but it isn't impossible.

To me, if you don't like the situation what are you going to do to change it? This can take many forms from working (actively rather than just talking about it) to bring about communism to moving to another place where your accent and position of birth is irrelevant.

I can't believe I didn't think of this earlier, but I have a little something to add to the discussion about negative thinking patterns and choice.

I have an 8-year-old who can be exasperatingly negative and fatalistic. Her father, whom she hasn't been around at all for almost three years now was also exasperatingly negative and fatalistic (he has since been diagnosed with having bi-polar disorder). His mother, one sister and at least one aunt that I know of are also exasperatingly negative and fatalistic. Now knowing what I have told you here, can anyone say with absolute assuredness that my eight-year-old daughter is making a choice to be negative? I know. I deal with it every day and I say that NO it isn't.

We shouldn't be so quick to judge people because they have to struggle with what comes (relatively) easily to us. Every day I am trying to coach my daughter into not defaulting to the negative. For some people it just doesn't work that way.

And why should it? Why all this stress on being upbeat and positive?

When you really think about, what we might consider 'negative' thinking has spawned some of the most compelling works of art and literature in the history of mankind. Maybe we're supposed to be this way. Different and all.

Just some random thoughts...

mm... I don't disagree that negativity has spawned some amazing works of art. But in spite of a negative point of view the artists still managed to create something.

I suppose what I am reacting to is more a tendency to simply point out the negative alone. Wallowing in negativity is good for a time, it puts life in perspective. But to simply wallow seems to be rather self-indulgent (chemical imbalance aside).

to be clear, I don't want to live in a world of stepford wives (and people). Negativity has it's place.

well if you're going to make something that is an absolute black hole you cant actually be IN that place---you have to know it, understand it and how it works----but you cant be IN it or you wont make anything.

i am not sure i buy the romantic suffering artiste thing.
something like notes from the underground has alot of playfulness in its language. it describes a particular existential space but isnt of it.

much closer to that space would probably be one of those diaries understood as copying experience in the sense of just repeating it, not opening it up to anyone, just saying stuff like "today everything sucked again" or "today everything sucked again" or "today everything sucked again." that indicates that the writer is not thinking that there could possibly be a reader, and if there were to be one, that reader would probably suck anyway so why bother?

I'm not trying to romanticize it. Just pointing out that a certain amount of 'dark thinking' has spawned a lot of material that has informed and touched us in ways that we can't imagine living without. At least I can't.

Philosophy is all about balance.

mm:

romanticism more. the suffering beautiful soul. young werther. tht kind of thing.
i didnt mean you were romanticising the dark side.

Unfortunately, the way brain chemistry works, the opposite of the conditions that cause depression do not cause extreme or unabated happiness, they cause other very bad things. In short, what generally causes depression, neurochemically, is a lowered amount of serotonin (that's a vast oversimplification, but moving along...).

On the other side of the coin, higher than normal levels of serotonin do not just produce euphoria, they begin to cause many very bad physiological changes. For example: The drug ecstasy, while it may temporarily cause a sort of euphoria, causes many bad reactions, like the infamous high body temperature, increased heart rate and blood pressure, sweating, etc. In lower amounts, the effects are still widespread but the emotional spectrum doesn't shorten towards the positive... you can still have negative thoughts or reactions. The worst part is, the negative reactions you DO have will be severe, and most likely appear as anger, rather than sadness.

Increased levels of serotonin actually induce a very bad, and potentially fatal condition called serotonin toxicity. From wiki, since it's easier to quote than write it all from scratch:

Areas in [these things] are me replacing the medical terms with lay terms, just for those who might not know the medical terms.

So yeah... while drugs like LSD (acid), mushrooms, and Ecstasy cause an increased level of serotonin in the brain, hence the generally positive "trip", being at even somewhat higher than normal levels of serotonin for any length of time begins to cause muscle tremors/spasms, and increased blood pressure and heart rate. So really, any levels high enough to make a person "high" or artificially happy, would also be causing many problems all throughout the body that would eventually be a big problem for your health.

Also, increased levels of serotonin over a period of time can "burn out" the areas of the brain that manufacture it, causing a person who doesn't die from constantly high levels of serotonin eventually end up clinically depressed because they can no longer make serotonin at even normal levels. This is the "burnout" associated with people becoming "emotionally void" or depressed after frequent use of elicit drugs like ecstasy, mushrooms, and LSD.

In short, there's really no "happy medium" where the serotonin levels are higher than normal to produce some happiness/euphoria but without causing any damaging effects elsewhere in the body. There is certainly the ability for a person to live with serotonin levels slightly higher than others do, but it might only cause a propensity for positive thinking. Increasing the likelihood of positive thought and happiness isn't the same thing as blocking/lowering the incidence of negative thought and sadness. It just means that, given any situation, they're more likely to respond in a positive way than a person with lower serotonin levels.

/way too much information, but maybe it was helpful to someone, including Jinnkai who thinks most depression is caused by a person's inability to just "suck it up". ;)

I think mm was confused because of the lack of a capital letter...small r and big R and all that, though we should know by now not to expect any capitalization from you, dear roachie.

young werther...showing off, are we? :p

There is opportunity for enrichment in the UK, maybe one day I will be rich, but I will always be working class. I don't mean to be anything else.

Wait a moment. Did I just read numerous complaints by you about being working class and how horrible it is and how you can't be happy if you're working class (because this thread is about negativity after all) and now you're saying you have no intention of be anything but working class?

Then what the hell are you complaining about?

This is what we're talking about in this thread. Not who's rich or poor. Money means nothing when it comes to happiness.

of course working people can be happy. Class is an economic reality - and it is true to say that as long as their is a master class and an exploited class: that the people will always be unfree... but the alienation from labour does not have to mean personal unhappiness. Class is also a social reality, which is what I am talking about here. And no, it doesnt mean that every working person has to always be unhappy - but it makes you more fatalistic for sure.

But like Eugene G Debs said "wherever there is a working class I shall be in it"

Again, I have to ask: what the hell does class warfare or class exploitation have to do with negativity and complaining? Where does this fit in? I'm starting to think that you're just simply attempting to inject some Marxism into any thread you can.

if you think about it jj, the linkage is pretty simple: if you see class as a mode of domination in an "objective" sense (think a map of the existing order that plots distribution of wealth, say), it's obvious that there would be a subjective flipside to it.

you can occupy a class position that can be defined analytically as dominated and still not internalize the idea that you are dominated.

if you internalize it subjectively, you are fucked--you would allow bourgeois ideology, which is geared around your exclusion in a sense--to define you. so you'd see yourself and what is possible only in terms of exclusion.

to translate it into the popsych language of this thread, you'd be all about "negativity" because that's most of what telling yourself that you are dominated and seeing yourself only in those terms will lead you to.

there is a way in which revolutionary politics can be seen as a project about reversing the sense of being-dominated, realigning the subjective state with the objective situation by enabling people to see domination as arbitrary. this is necessary if you are even dreaming about enabling folk to act politically. a group of people who really believe that the political and economic orders they live under are rational or necessary, and who find themselves dominated or excluded within that order will so no alternative to it. they'll see their position as justified. no possibility of acting. none at all.


i use the "pop-psych" terminology to differentiate "negativity" in this thread from the negative in a hegelian sense. which matters if you know anything about marx.

and i dont like the objective/subjective split--it's arbitrary.
but this isnt a particularly technical conversation, so the split functions.

it seems pretty straightforward.
i dont see what you're objecting to. if the problem is the use of old-school marxian categories, we can certainly have a---um---discussion about that--maybe here, maybe not.

for what it's worth, i dont really operate with these categories in this old-school sense. but that's another matter entirely.

Time is all we have until we run out of it. Valuing the time and feeling pleasure in it might be impossible for some, but for many it is a willful choice to be a victim.

My current boss - as of last Friday....was so negative and depressing every minute of every working hour - I finally told her to take my job and shove it.

It felt really great to say that to her and she acted so surprised. Hehehe...Instant Karma is something to delight in. That's one example of what constant negativity will get you.

And I was making her 40-50 hours a week so much easier for her. She was able to take off 3 days each week to work from home while I ran the HR department. Tisk, tisk.

Meanwhile I'm enjoying time off and no worries.

One of the better COs I had in the Navy pretty much told everyone that if they had a complaint, not to come to him unless they had a proposed solution. If they violated that suggestion, and didn't have said proposed solution, he pretty much told them to GTFO.

I adopted his method. In the civilian world, you have to tone down the language, but I just don't waste a lot of time with the complainers. I've even had a couple of the worst ones finally admit, after wasting a great deal of my time, that they just LIKE complaining.

They're going to have to do it with someone else, though. Sooner or later, I get rid of the ones who are poison.