blade02

And? Thats a + for socialism?

Every time someone tries it, USSR... North Korea... China.... Cuba... the end result is 1) A dominating government 2) A disproportionate investment in the government's military so they can stay in power 3) A populace where almost everyone is poor.

Socialism has the worst track record as far as results go when its implemented. I'm not sure why everyone wants to defend it so badly. Its like watching people try to jump over a canyon and fall to their doom. But instead of calling them stupid for jumping over a cliff, everyone makes excuses on how their jumping technique wasn't correct and thats why they failed.

roachboy

first off, with respect to the ussr--anton ciliga was right--he was among the first to write about the gulag and did so from a left opposition viewpoint--his claim was that the actual revolution was in the gulag--and this by 1928.
but as for innovative stuff--i assume since we are playing a dilletante game here that you refer to official culture and not oppositional culture--if you look at all at oppositional culture--not the yay capitalist reactionary stuff, but the left oppositional culture(s)--there was a TON of radical innovative work produced in almost every aspect of cultural production under the soviet union and in eastern europe--all this DESPITE the foul, stupid official culture--for example--a relatively prominent one in some circles, but you'd still have to look for it generally--czech new wave films are as fine a cinematic tradition as you find anywhere on earth and the work of people like chytilova had NOTHING to do with any rah rah capitalism nonsense--aesthetically, her work is still not easily assimilated--but it is fabulous and you should not believe me you should track down some of her films and see for yourself.

and as for official cultures not producing much that is of any interest, you could say the same of the united states--nothing terribly interesting is happening in mainstream culture, but there is a TON of interesting work happening at its margins, and DESPITE the reactionary official world that is amurica and its nimrod politics. to stick with film for a minute (because it is easy, because films are expensive to make, because folk know about film) what of any actual interest has come out of hollywood in the past few years? there are a lot of independent films that are good--excellent to fabulous no less--innovative in every way--so this is not to say (again) that nothing interesting is happening in the states--but almost all of it is outside the mainstream systems of cultural reproduction. seems to me that the americans have capitalist barbarism and as shitty a mainstream culture as anywhere has managed--yet lots of folk seem to nonetheless find something to congratulate themselves about, presumably on the basis of that shitty mainstream culture.

go figure.

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spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

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Willravel

You just described the USA.

blade02

1) I don't think most people in the USA qualify as poor.
2) The poor people in the USA have a chance of becoming not poor.

I drive by resturants, stores, and businesses in general everyday that say "now hiring". There's no excuse for being unemployed.

Willravel

12% in the US live below the poverty line. That means 1 out of every 8 people in the US lives below the poverty line. Do you know what the poverty line is? $9,800 a year. Think about that.

Also, poor people in China have a chance to be not poor.
You're right! The 13.8 million people in the US currently unemployed obviously aren't looking for a job.

Yakk

Pithy attempt:
Summing the utility of the people in a society sub-linearly with regards to wealth is socialistic.

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Baraka_Guru

Currently, over a quarter of Canada's House of Commons would describe themselves as social democrats. Canada has been "trying it" for a while now. We aren't doing too bad.

What? Jumping over canyons can put a man in space?

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—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
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Fire

In my own Words: A terrible idea that hopefully will fade away as soon as possible......

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kutulu

Sure, because all it takes is $10/hr and you aren't poor.

FoolThemAll

Hey, I made it part-time on $7/hr while paying back two college loans.

'Course, free food and $200/month rent from my parents may have played a part...

But still... the poor in the United States aren't necessarily financially equivalent to the poor in Russia. And they're probably rich compared to China's poor. The poverty line seems like an incredibly subjective/relative thing, and I'd wager that the United States has one of the higher standards here.

(Also, I'd argue that Canada's fairly capitalistic. Fairly socialistic, but fairly capitalistic as well.)

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MSD

I understand that some taxation is necessary, I'm not particularly happy about paying 10% of my income to the government, but it's necessary because they're the ones who maintain the roads I use to get to work and who come save my ass if my house is on fire. On the other hand, taking huge chunks of money from the rich to pay for unjust wars and let congress bring pork back to their home districts is irresponsible and unethical. Having grown up in a household where money was always tight and we were unable to afford many luxuries (in other words, I'm not a bitter rich kid,) I find it unconscionable that any government would consider itself entitled to more of a person's income than that person.

kutulu

IMO, a system where you can take the best elements from capitalism and socialism would be as close to ideal as possible.

flstf

I thought that we in the U.S. were already socialists, just to a lesser degree than Europe and Canada. The poor and middle class already pay well over 50% of their income on state, local and federal taxes with our current tax system. All (most) of the taxes levied in the distribution chain get added to the price of goods and services which the poor and middle class spend most of their income on with little left over.

I suspect that increasing the taxes paid by the wealthy and corporations might make these goods and services cost even more when they are added to the final prices.

samcol

I would agree and add that it seems everything bad about the US economy and corporations is blamed on capitalism, when actually it seems the more socilistic we become the worse things have gotten. Fifty years ago it was a lot easier to have a home with 2 cars and take a couple vacations a year on one income. Now it's hard to do that with two incomes.

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It's time for the president to hand over his nobel peace prize.

Willravel

You also have to look at inflation and distribution of wealth for that. Inflation, theoretically, is much easier to control under a socialist system. Not only that, but I doubt anyone would disagree that under socialism there is a much smaller divide between the wealthiest and poorest.

samcol

I don't think inflation has much to do with capitalism or socialism really. A house is still a house, and apple is still and apple, no matter what monetary value is attributed to it. My house didn't gain 5% more to it's value, rather the dollar got 5% weaker. I know there are other things that effect prices of goods, but my house is still worth X amount of gold bars despite it's dollar price going up or down.

I think we've been tricked into believing inflation is some natural occuring phenomenon when it really has more to do with the dollar not being fixed to gold and the Fed printing it at an insane rate.

The large gaps in distribution of wealth are achieved by corporations using government to legislate themselves into a larger market share. Think Haliburton, big pharma, big aggra etc. These large contracts and market entry barriers for their competitors can only be achieved when there is a huge tax base to work off that is typical of socialism rather than capitalism.

__________________
It's time for the president to hand over his nobel peace prize.

filtherton

Socialism in contemporary america is code for, "The libs want to take our money and spend it on things we are ideologically opposed to." That's it.

Willravel

Yes, but the determining factor for inflation is the market, and under a socialist system, the market can be influenced centrally (instead of having many large corporations, as in most capitalist systems). While a socailist system may not be able to control demand as much (demand pull inflation), cost push can be avoided more easily by a centralized organization. Built in inflation would be the most obvious fix from socialization.
On the FED we agree totally. No oversight. No rules. It's a very broken part of our system, and it needs to either be replaced by a whole new system or dropped completely.
Don't forget that capitalism brings about more bribery and thus governmental corruption. Imagine if public organizations were in charge of oil. No Iraq war. No constantly fluctuating prices. No corporate assassinations of developers of alternatives. We'd probably be a lot less dependent on oil.

flstf

I don't think it is just the Democrats or libs anymore. The Republicans are very adept at taking our money and spending it on things many of us oppose as well.

Willravel

Here's a short list of things that I would want in the public sector, and you let me know if you're ideologically opposed to it:
Health care
Military Defense, weapons, etc.
Internet, Phone and other telecom
Energy
Prisons

filtherton

Will, flstf, you guys are being too intellectual about it. Socialism, as a concept in american political discourse is a boogeyman. It's something that the thoughtless subset of conservatism(not all conservatives are thoughtless) tells its children about to get them to eat their vegetables. That's why the two tfpers who have called me a socialist as a pejorative are completely absent in this thread; they actually have no clue what socialism really is.

kutulu

You can't be serious. Take a look at your paycheck. Medicare, SS, Fed, and State add up to 13% for me and I'm probably in the top 25% for household income. Add in my property taxes and I'm at 14%. Local sales tax about 8% for non-food and something like 1-2% for food. After all of that I'm nowhere near 20%.

flstf

We have had this discussion on taxes already some time ago in this forum but I cannot find it so I will reply again.

It is the indirect taxes that I am writing about which are added to the direct taxes you listed. It is difficult to find out exactly how much these taxes add to the price of goods and services but I have seen estimates of between 30 to 70 percent depending on which goods and services you buy. One of the more high end estimates is contained in the following article:
http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials...t021001pv.html

Willravel

I'm a real socialist, and I'm proud of it. It represents my enthusiasm and optimism, and it's a natural part of me. In other words, if there were a town of Willravels, the town would be socialist. And successful.

pai mei

I lived in communist Romania until the age of 10, and I was happy back then, there was nothing we did not have - as modern comforts besides a color TV and 100 TV channels.
People were going on vacation for 1 month every year, and everybody had a place to work, guaranteed, life was going at a slower pace, not the work, eat, sleep, be stressed, be fast, of today.

I would like to see socialism back - without the dictature, and with the option that anybody can turn into a capitalist - that is if he finds enough stupid people to work for him as he gets rich. Maybe he can tempt them with higher wages, let them be free to be capitalists then

But greedy people who like shiny things will not allow it. They talk about socialism as the most evil thing in the world. A dictatorship is indeed evil, before 1990 you could not say anything against the leaders because there were informants everywhere listening
Dictature is the opposite of democracy, socialism is the opposite of capitalism, it has nothing to do with dictature.

powerclown

Social democracy is a far cry from democratic socialism. I think what you are referring to and what blade02 was referring to are 2 separate ideologies. It sounded like blade02 was referring to 'orthodox' socialism or democratic socialism and you were referring to socialized democracy. I agree with you both.

Cynthetiq

I don't know what socialism is really.

I just know that I want to earn what I get. I don't want to give away what I earn to anyone else just because. I'm happy to be courted for special interests and special donations, but to just give away that which I earned on my own I have severe problems with.

I don't want to give away what I've worked hard to get to someone who is a lazy fuck trying to get by without doing anything. I don't care if you are elderly, handicapped, or disabled. You can still contribute in some fashion. It may not earn you on par as everyone else, but in those cases those that are NGOs trying to help out these folks will be trying to find funds and donations from people what can donate and give time/money.

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kutulu

I can pull 'estimates' out of my ass as well. Most of that is BS driven by people with an agenda to eliminate corporate taxes under the false pretense that businesses would pass 100% of the savings back to the people.

A simple excercise: add up the total amount that the govt took in and subtract the sum of all direct taxes. Divide that by the total taxable income and you have the so-called average 'hidden tax' rate.

flstf

I don't understand how this will tell us what portion of these direct taxes are added to the price of goods and services and therefore ultimately paid by the consumer.

It would seem to make sense that as taxes are raised on suppliers, manufacturers, shippers, etc.. that they will recoup most of this amount by adding it to the prices they charge.

If it costs you 2 dollars to manufacture a widget today and tomorrow the government raises taxes making your cost 3 dollars then you have to make up the difference somewhere and the price consumers pay for widgets is probably going to go up accordingly.

mikec

a good take on socialism, is the book The Jungle by Upton Sinclair. Written around the turn of the century, it's about the meatpacking industry in Chicago around 1900...Sinclair goes into Socialist rhetoric in the late chapters. Definitely worth a read if you're interested in Socialism.

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m0rpheus

That's pretty much what I've been thinking the entire time I've been reading this thread.

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powerclown

Democratic socialism and social democracy are 2 different things. "Democratic socialism" is like "compassionate conservatism" in that its an image-driven rhetorical device used to soften the real agenda. It's still socialism, its still anti-free trade, its still government regulation and ownership (aka: domination) of all forms of commerce, its still based on the myth of a classless society, and it is still the leading ideology and means to power of the dictator. Just today, Hugo Chavez declared himself Lord and Master of Venezuela for Everlasting Eternity, and he did so implicitly and cynically on the backs of the poor and working classes.

"Socialized democracy" is more honest, more realistic and more benevolent in its intent. It characterizes a fundamentally democratic form of government: free trade, system of checks and balances, judiciary, open society, free press, etc...and mixes in government subsidized social programs such as universal healthcare, addiction counseling, educational programs and the like.

As their names imply, social democracy is a form of democracy; democratic socialism is a form of socialism.

Baraka_Guru

powerclown, I'm more or less satisfied with the distinction, with some exceptions:

1. I think you were a bit too biased in your summary of democratic socialism.
   
2. Isn't social democracy more concerned with fair trade than free trade?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Necrosis

Wow.

The combined rate for SS and Medicare is 7.65% for you. Your employer is forced to match that amount, or if you are self-employed, your self-employment tax is 15.3%. If you can find a way around those taxes, you will be an instant multimillionaire as a financial advisor.

Using California as an example, you will also pay a state disability tax of .6%.

Throw in state income tax of around 9%, and a rough estimate of 25% for federal (brackets run from 10% to 35%), and you're up to around 50%. Then there are property taxes, which are roughly 1% of the value of the house.

As you said there is the old 7.75% (CA) sales tax. Along with that goes:

Accounts Receivable Tax
Building Permit Tax
Capital Gains Tax
CDL license Tax
Cigarette Tax
Corporate Income Tax
Court Fines (indirect taxes)
Dog License Tax
Federal Unemployment Tax (FUTA)
Fishing License Tax
Food License Tax
Fuel permit tax
Gasoline Tax (42 cents per gallon)
Hunting License Tax
Inheritance Tax Interest expense (tax on the money)
Inventory tax IRS Interest Charges (tax on top of tax)
IRS Penalties (tax on top of tax)
Liquor Tax
Local Income Tax
Luxury Taxes
Marriage License Tax
Real Estate Tax
Septic Permit Tax
Service Charge Taxes
Road Usage Taxes (Truckers)
Recreational Vehicle Tax
Road Toll Booth Taxes
School Tax
State Unemployment Tax (SUTA)
Telephone federal excise tax
Telephone federal universal service fee tax
Telephone federal, state and local surcharge taxes
Telephone minimum usage surcharge tax
Telephone recurring and non-recurring charges tax
Telephone State and local tax
Telephone usage charge tax
Toll Bridge Taxes
Toll Tunnel Taxes
Traffic Fines (indirect taxation)
Trailer registration tax
Utility Taxes
Vehicle License Registration Tax
Vehicle Sales Tax
Watercraft registration Tax
Well Permit Tax
Workers Compensation Tax

There are also those pesky "fees" that crop up frequently. Don't forget about bond issues, either.

If you are paying a total of 20% in taxes, by any name, a great many people including myself would be very interested in hearing how you do it.

I forgot to define socialism!

Socialism:

A system of government in which everyone attempts to live at the expense of everyone else.

Baraka_Guru

Wow, you just simultaneously defined socialism and capitalism.... impressive.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Necrosis

Well, if by "capitalism," you mean "the exact opposite of capitalism," you are correct.


You could take up the matter with Frederic Bastiat, who said the above, but he died over 150 years ago.

We could certainly benefit from the wisdom of a man such as he today.

abaya

Well Cyn, sorry to say this, but I guess you wouldn't be happy living in Iceland, after all!

Let's see: 40% income taxes, 25% sales tax, inexpensive and good medical care (from prenatal to elder care), free education through the doctoral level, 24 days MINIMUM vacation each year, 9 months of paid maternity/paternity leave, one of the highest standards of living in the world, one of the longest lifespans in the world, etc etc.

But don't be fooled... the weather SUCKS! And they don't like foreigners/immigrants. But otherwise, it's not a bad place to live, really.

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for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Willravel

Well if you understand capitalism for what it is, economic selfishness, it's clear that being a capitalist does mean that you're living at the expense of others.

albania

How so? Capitalism gives everyone the freedom to be selfish, to contribute as little or as much to the common good as they want; it does not force anyone to be selfish. Socialism carries with it the connotation that one should not be selfish. I would rather live in a place where man is allowed the greatest degree of freedom to chose his own moral path in life. The idealism that is a common good is born out of the modicum of happy experiences we enjoy as individuals.

Willravel

Capitalism is motivated by profit alone. That's selfish.