News helicopters collide, killing four. Who's to blame? - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

albania · 07-28-2007, 07:47 PM

What I was confused about was that it was implied that the police asked for the help of news helicopters. Did they ask for more than one? I don't think it's reasonable for that to have happened. I have no idea how the cops delegate authority to the media, but it seems more likely to me that if the police asked for help it was because there already were two news helicopters out there to begin with.

shakran · 07-28-2007, 08:41 PM

I don't see where it implies that. When it says they are covering the chase, that means they are covering it for their stations, not the police.

TotalMILF · 07-28-2007, 10:04 PM

After reading all of these posts I can totally see where most of you are coming from, and I've changed my position on the matter.

If the pilots were not actually policemen (even if they were asked by the police to tail the carjacker), then they were essentially just bystanders who crashed because they weren't paying attention to their surroundings. There's no way a charge could stick in court for that reason.

I was chatting with my father (a lawyer) about this, and we came to the conclusion that only way the carjacker could possibly be held liable in these deaths is if one or more people aboard the choppers had been deputized prior to the incident (which I doubt they were). That would've officially made them law enforcement, which would've meant that they were performing their civic duty instead of just getting a story.

However you look at it, it was a very tragic event. I'm just glad that they didn't land on a building or something.

xepherys · 07-28-2007, 10:47 PM

I wonder if there is precedence, though, even for police choppers. Airspace is significantly easier to control that roadways. Two pilots should NEVER, under any circumstances, be close enough to collide. Two choppers will naturally push away from each other slightly anyhow. I'm not sure HOW this happened, but I can't see the guy being chased as being responsible in any way.

krwlz · 07-29-2007, 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TotalMILF

However you look at it, it was a very tragic event.

Agreed whole heartedly. And I realize you will also agree with my next statement. But tragic and liablity are two very different things, and people in general need to realize this.

Charlatan · 07-29-2007, 02:12 AM

If civil law in the US is as harsh as this... cripes.

I think it's ridiculous that anyone would think the pursued is responsible for this... Personal responsibility is the key word here.

Jetée · 07-29-2007, 02:31 AM

Why must responsibility and culpability be issued at all for an accident?
(assuredly, those two choppers were not meant to collide, nor did any one entity solely contribute to the occurrence)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frosstbyte

It's chaos theory applied to liability.

Quote:

News helicopters collide, killing four. Who's to blame?

Society.

No.

Nature.

No.

Antagonism.

albania · 07-29-2007, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shakran

I don't see where it implies that. When it says they are covering the chase, that means they are covering it for their stations, not the police.

Sorry for the confusion, it was a poor sentence on my part. I meant to say it was implied by other posters that the police might have asked for their help.

stevie667 · 07-29-2007, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frosstbyte

MOAB, they're just going to say "You didn't commit a crime, so it's different." He's a convenient scapegoat for a tragedy. Instead of, god forbid, we hold an "innocent' responsible for being an idiot and not knowing how to fly his helicopter, we blame the guy on the ground. Yes, in some global sense he did "cause" them to be there, but he had NOTHING to do with how they flew or their skill in flying helicopters. It's chaos theory applied to liability.

Edit: They weren't "just trying to help." They were part of a media frenzy fueled by a voyeuristic society that loves disaster porn. I think the police asking media helicopters to "help with the chase" is bad for really this exact reason. They're not people trained to follow criminals. They're people trained to follow a story. I cannot imagine how absolutely brain dead those two pilots must have been to allow themselves to get that close to one another and then to collide. They blew it, and blew it hard. Life does not owe you a perfectly safe experience. One or both of those pilots made serious errors today and if ANYONE should be held responsible, it is them. The families of the reporters should, by all means, sue the negligent pilot who caused the crash, because the blame lies very clearly on him.

My thoughts exactly!

Terrell · 07-29-2007, 10:34 PM

I think this crash amounts to pilot error, and the fleeing felon isn't responsible for it civilly or criminally, in my opinion. I agree with the other posters who say that it's a case of the pilots of the choppers who are responsible for their own deaths. Maybe their bosses if they are pressing them to take more risks in doing this.

Perhaps there should be a different division of labor in the craft, is it possible that the pilot's job should simply be to fly the chopper, while another person in the chopper control the camera? You know, put the camera on a mount that allows it's aim to be adjusted independently of the direction that the chopper is pointed. If it were set up that way, perhaps the pilot could focus on making sure he doesn't collide with other pilots. (the above paraagraph is based on some of the CNN coverage I've seen of the crash)

shakran · 07-30-2007, 05:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terrell

Perhaps there should be a different division of labor in the craft, is it possible that the pilot's job should simply be to fly the chopper, while another person in the chopper control the camera? You know, put the camera on a mount that allows it's aim to be adjusted independently of the direction that the chopper is pointed. If it were set up that way, perhaps the pilot could focus on making sure he doesn't collide with other pilots. (the above paraagraph is based on some of the CNN coverage I've seen of the crash)

News choppers (the good ones anyway) already have that setup. It's called a gyrocam. You can see it on the front of this one:

Generally a photographer runs the gyrocam - it has a little joystick to control it. In cheaper choppers the photographer opens the side door and shoots video out of it with a regular news camera.

The pilot almost never shoots video, but he's often expected to function as a reporter. It sounds like in at least one of the crashed choppers, the pilot was live on the air talking to the anchors -- IMO this should never happen - the pilot should be concentrating on flying the bird. Unfortunately many news helicopters can only carry two people because they're already so heavy with all the equipment they have. I know of one chopper in Iowa that had only enough capacity for the pilot (who acted as the reporter) and a VERY lightweight photographer - -they used to have to send the smallest intern they had for that to meet the weight restrictions.

The general problem is that news helicopters are being misused. They should be used to get crews quickly to a story that's a long way away, or to provide aerials of a scene where the cops aren't letting people on the ground get close enough to shoot video. They should not be used in police chases. Period. And if they are, they should not get reports live from the pilot. There is absolutely no reason to broadcast a police chase, especially live.

Destrox · 07-30-2007, 08:03 AM

Nobody ever "mans up" and takes blame for whats their own anymore.

Even the thought of blaming the criminal that is running from the cops is just passing vengeance onto him, and not properly charging him with what he should be.

The news organizations should be held responsible for putting peoples lives at risk by flying their air craft in a unsafe manor. Police do not need to chase every criminal, it often just leads to someone else being hurt physically and/or financially that the state will NEVER pay for. Again, because they do not want to take blame for their own actions.

Its always easy to just blame the bad guy for all events that go bad, but its rarely required.

RenaissanceII · 07-30-2007, 06:58 PM

shakran wrote:

Quote:

The pilot almost never shoots video, but he's often expected to
function as a reporter. It sounds like in at least one of the crashed choppers, the pilot was live on the air talking to the anchors -- IMO this should never happen - the pilot should be concentrating on flying the bird. Unfortunately many news helicopters can only carry two people because they're already so heavy with all the equipment they have. I know of one chopper in Iowa that had only enough capacity for the pilot (who acted as the reporter) and a VERY lightweight photographer - -they used to have to send the smallest intern they had for that to meet the weight restrictions.

In most markets outside of NY LA and Chicago, it is a two man operation, the Pilot/Reporter and the Videographer.
In The Big three markets, The pilot flies the thing and there is a separate reporter and the videographer....

It would not surprise me to find that due to this catastrophy, the Big City setup will filter to smaller markets, and that some stations may get out of the chopper business alltogether due to the added costs.

shakran · 07-30-2007, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BiqueerChris

shakran wrote:

In most markets outside of NY LA and Chicago, it is a two man operation, the Pilot/Reporter and the Videographer.
In The Big three markets, The pilot flies the thing and there is a separate reporter and the videographer....

It would not surprise me to find that due to this catastrophy, the Big City setup will filter to smaller markets, and that some stations may get out of the chopper business alltogether due to the added costs.

What's this? Do we have a stealth TV newsman running around here?

I hope you're right. I'm hearing rumblings already that police chases have been suspended by several stations across the country as a result of this crash.

RenaissanceII · 07-30-2007, 07:42 PM

No jes somebody who has followed the business for years... A groupie if you will..

smooth · 07-31-2007, 04:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TotalMILF

This is a tragic and horrible turn of events, indeed. My question to you TFPers is this:

Should the man being followed by the helicopters be liable for the four deaths? Why or why not?

I think he should, but only if one or both of the news teams were acting on behalf of the police. What are your thoughts?

No, I think it's ridiculous to hold someone responsible for an event they had no direct control over. A bedrock of our penal system is that people knowingly and willingly break the law. This fact has been eroded by all kinds of odd judgments and sentencing, but I'd still prefer to believe that someone has to be the person trying to break the law to be guilty, not just be around an incident.

RenaissanceII · 07-31-2007, 06:26 AM

My sense is that the Phoenix Police official who suggested that additional charges be filed in regards to the mid-air collision may have been politically motivated....

kutulu · 07-31-2007, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shakran

They should not be used in police chases. Period. And if they are, they should not get reports live from the pilot. There is absolutely no reason to broadcast a police chase, especially live.

But how are we supposed to get our fix for blood and gore?

Adri · 07-31-2007, 12:36 PM

It is *possible* that he could get hit with the felony murder law, whereby if someone's death can be directly attributed to your actions while you are in the process of committing a felony, you are charged for their murder.

However, again, the responsibility for operating the choppers rested on the pilots themselves, and since a chopper crash isn't (previously... I guess now it is) a foreseeable consequence of a ground-driven police chase, it would be massively difficult to convict this guy for anything relating to this crash.

Any damage or crashing that occurred on the streets during his chase, however, is all on him.

Willravel · 07-31-2007, 12:44 PM

Pilot error. Either one or both pilots were watching the road instead of the sky. It's a damned shame.

roachboy · 07-31-2007, 01:24 PM

any logic that'd connect the guy being chased to the cause of the helicopter crash seems piss-poor. it takes the notion of responsibility for consequences--which would be the rationale for criminal law--and just runs with it in a kind of ridiculous way. if you are going to go this route, you might as well blame the cops for giving chase, or radio traffic for making that chase de facto public knowledge, or the news director of the tv stations (as shakran indicated above). you could even hold the tv news audience to account for it. hell, why not hold the mayor to account as well: after all, if the city wasnt there, this wouldnt have happened.

or you could see this as an accident.

sheesh.

shakran · 07-31-2007, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kutulu

But how are we supposed to get our fix for blood and gore?

Might I suggest Rambo?

Willravel · 07-31-2007, 09:16 PM

I can't tell you how many people have crashed their cars because they were just staring my bum. I can't be held responsible for all of them.

RenaissanceII · 08-01-2007, 06:26 AM

A little Perspective from someone in the business in Phoenix, taken from an e-mail I received:

Quote:

When “News” is not “News”

I work in the Phoenix DMA, at a local station here. Sadly, I was at work when 2 of our competing stations suffered a mid-air collision as a result of “covering” a slow-speed car-chase involving a water truck that resulted in the collision of Channel 3 (KTVK) and Channel 15 (KNXV).

I feel for the families and co-workers of the unfortunate victims of this tragedy and being an employee for a local station, it goes without saying that it affects us all as media people, whether TV, Radio or Print form, all share a brotherhood much like the police and military. It touches all of us in so many ways when one of our own is hurt or killed.

Having said that, Phoenix PD is looking into the possibility of charging the suspect, Christopher Jones with his involvement in the deaths of our 4 colleagues. My problem with charging Jones for the deaths of the 4 newsmen, is that it wasn't necessary for the local media to dispatch their choppers to cover a “non-story”. Over the years I have worked in TV, so often News Directors & Producers will dispatch their helicopters & live units simply in response because “station X is doing it, so we have to do it too” in order to “appear” to be the “first with the news.” In my opinion, the local stations were doing nothing more than "making a story out of a non-story". I have worked in this TV market for over 15 years as well as in other large markets, and it doesn't matter where you go, stations are so busy thinking they are “covering news” when in reality they are busy “making news&rd! quo; by covering something that is insignificant to most people in the community. I am forever regaled with comments from viewers that wonder why TV stations go overboard covering weather and other such stories and people snicker at the self-grandiosity of the news organization that think they are covering “breaking news”, when in fact, they are thinking only of their appearance as a so-called credible news organization with no thought of how it really best serves the public interest. I have often told colleagues that I wondered how long it would be until something like this happened and now sadly, it has.

I think if anything, the News Directors and Executive Producers of TV stations need to re-think the criteria as to why they would dispatch their helicopters to cover stories. Christopher Jones had not shot a police officer, he had not shot or injured innocent pedestrians, he had not robbed or committed a crime serious enough for 5 valley choppers to cover and to pre-empt their regular programming. In my career, I have been on “live locations” on the ground covering a story that had long ceased to be “breaking news” and looked up to see the choppers above me on site also covering the same scene, something that wasn't in my opinion, worth their presence. Had I been a news director, I would have not let a chopper cover this particular chase simply because it was frivolous and not beneficial to the public as a whole. Only when the situation warrants, should something as sophisticated and dangerous as a helicopter, be used. The local stations! (and other large markets) tend to use them again and again, frivolously, more than not, without any thought to consequences and instead have the tendency to “make news” when it's not really “news”, but rather their desire to be “live, local and late-breaking”. Many times, a story such as this, is better served if the news stations agreed to "pool" video thereby reducing the chance of such an accident as this happening. I personally feel that the deceased newsmen died as a result of decision making on the part of the news directors and their departments wanting to be "first".

Now 4 people are dead, their families grieving, others have been traumatized as a result of basically, local TV stations covering the theft and chase of a stolen water truck, a stolen water truck! If anything, I think that the News Directors and Executive Producers, are the ones that owe the public and the victims families, an apology for the way that their News departments go overboard on “news” stories, dispatching their helicopters for stories that are not worth the cost that we as a community, witnessed on Friday...I am hoping that maybe TV stations will learn from this and re-vamp their criteria on what stories are really worth covering with a helicopter and the benefits and information that would best serve the public. I think that stations need to stop “doing news for news” sake and cover real stories. May God bless the guys from 3 & 15, their friends and colleagues, and especially their families in this sad time.

The writer speaks truth, IMHO.

The Faba · 08-01-2007, 08:02 PM

Quote:

If civil law in the US is as harsh as this... cripes

The word isn't harsh, it's 'ridiculous'. The US's civil law is ridiculous. (Reference burglars falling through skylights and filing suite)

If they're not acting on behalf of the police, and they crash, it's not the guy-who's-running's fault. He could in no way figured out a way to force the two helicopters (that he probably didn't even know about) to crash.

If they were in some extension of the police, then consider this situation. A person is running from two police officers on foot. Both officers have their guns drawn. One police officer accidently shoots and kills the other officer. That's not the running man's fault, that's incompetance.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for sticking as many charges as possible onto criminals. Such as when a person mugs someone with a heart defect and gives them a heart attack - I'd be up for charging them with murder. But this situation was caused by pilot error, nothing more.

yournamehere · 08-01-2007, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xepherys

I'm not sure HOW this happened, but I can't see the guy being chased as being responsible in any way.

In any way?

How about because of the fact that if this asswipe didn't decide to steal a truck that day, 4 men would be alive right now?

I can understand that he probably won't be charged with felony murder; I can even see how a civil case would need a lot of help. But what happened to morality and responsibility? The car thief set in motion a series of events that eventually resulted in these men's deaths. I can't understand how so many of you are giving him a pass on this! He's a goddamn thief, and because of that, people died. If he doesn't steal a truck, four people live. Period.

________ OK - rant over_____________

As far as the actual cause of the crash, I imagine we'll find that, like almost all aviation accidents, it wasn't one big thing that caused it; rather a tragic series of small events that led to it.

There's a lot of distractions up there - in addition to the actual flying, which takes a hell of a lot of concentration in and of itself, the pilot is listening to air traffic control, the other pilots, the police scanner, the photographer, and his producer - all talking at once.

That's why you've got to be a damn good pilot to even attempt what they all make look easy.

RIP and Godspeed Craig, Rick, Scott, and Jim.

Willravel · 08-01-2007, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yournamehere

In any way?

How about because of the fact that if this asswipe didn't decide to steal a truck that day, 4 men would be alive right now?

This is the kind of slippery slopesque reason that concerns me a bit. I call this type of thing chaos. The butterfly flaps it's wings, releasing pollen from a small flower, that pollen falls upon the nose of an elephant which sneezes and causes a stampede. That stampede kicks enough dust to change the weather pattern and a hurricane hits the Eastern seaboard instead of heading back out to sea...
... therefore the butterfly is responsible for $2b in damages? Do we sue the butterfly for negligent homicide for someone who passed away in the hurricane?

No. Just, no. The fault for this collision rests mainly on the shoulders of inattentive pilots. If anyone else, maybe the people who insist on watching sensationalist news, but even that is a stretch.

Let's try another one. Let's say you're a botanist. You have a beautiful garden, but you come across an ant line and start following it. You're paying so much attention to the ants that you fail to notice the fence and you bump your head. Is this the fault of the ants? Absolutely not.

highthief · 08-02-2007, 02:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yournamehere

I can't understand how so many of you are giving him a pass on this! He's a goddamn thief, and because of that, people died. If he doesn't steal a truck, four people live. Period.

You answered your own question ... he's a THIEF, not a MURDERER. Not someone I'd invite to dinner, but not someone 'd want to stick a needle into either.

The pilots are the ones you should be outraged against - one or both of them fucked up and killed a couple of other people due to incompetence, error or other.

shakran · 08-02-2007, 04:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yournamehere

In any way?

How about because of the fact that if this asswipe didn't decide to steal a truck that day, 4 men would be alive right now?

At what point on this line of logic do we stop assigning blame? After all, if YOU had gone down there and bought the truck the day before and driven it across country, the truck wouldn't have been there for him to steal. Should we also hold you responsible for the crashes? Clearly not, and holding him responsible for the actions of others would be equally ridiculous.

And while it is the pilot's fault, I still say it's also largely the news organizations' fault. At least one of the pilots was live on the air when the crash happened. In other words the newsroom expected him to be a pilot and a reporter, which IMO is, while common, not safe.

07-28-2007, 10:04 PM	#43 (permalink)
TotalMILF Delusional... but in a funny way Location: deeee-TROIT!!!	After reading all of these posts I can totally see where most of you are coming from, and I've changed my position on the matter. If the pilots were not actually policemen (even if they were asked by the police to tail the carjacker), then they were essentially just bystanders who crashed because they weren't paying attention to their surroundings. There's no way a charge could stick in court for that reason. I was chatting with my father (a lawyer) about this, and we came to the conclusion that only way the carjacker could possibly be held liable in these deaths is if one or more people aboard the choppers had been deputized prior to the incident (which I doubt they were). That would've officially made them law enforcement, which would've meant that they were performing their civic duty instead of just getting a story. However you look at it, it was a very tragic event. I'm just glad that they didn't land on a building or something. __________________ "I'm sorry, all I heard was blah blah blah, I'm a dirty tramp."

07-28-2007, 10:47 PM	#44 (permalink)
xepherys <3 TFP Location: 17TLH2445607250	I wonder if there is precedence, though, even for police choppers. Airspace is significantly easier to control that roadways. Two pilots should NEVER, under any circumstances, be close enough to collide. Two choppers will naturally push away from each other slightly anyhow. I'm not sure HOW this happened, but I can't see the guy being chased as being responsible in any way. __________________ The prospect of achieving a peace agreement with the extremist group of MILF is almost impossible... -- Emmanuel Pinol, Governor of Cotobato My Homepage

07-29-2007, 02:12 AM	#46 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	If civil law in the US is as harsh as this... cripes. I think it's ridiculous that anyone would think the pursued is responsible for this... Personal responsibility is the key word here. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

07-30-2007, 08:03 AM	#52 (permalink)
Destrox Metal and Rock 4 Life Location: Phoenix	Nobody ever "mans up" and takes blame for whats their own anymore. Even the thought of blaming the criminal that is running from the cops is just passing vengeance onto him, and not properly charging him with what he should be. The news organizations should be held responsible for putting peoples lives at risk by flying their air craft in a unsafe manor. Police do not need to chase every criminal, it often just leads to someone else being hurt physically and/or financially that the state will NEVER pay for. Again, because they do not want to take blame for their own actions. Its always easy to just blame the bad guy for all events that go bad, but its rarely required. __________________ You bore me.... next.

07-30-2007, 07:42 PM	#55 (permalink)
RenaissanceII Psycho Location: Grand Rapids	No jes somebody who has followed the business for years... A groupie if you will.. __________________ *And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom.* Anais Nin I Wish *You* Well.

07-28-2007, 07:47 PM	#41 (permalink)
albania Psycho	What I was confused about was that it was implied that the police asked for the help of news helicopters. Did they ask for more than one? I don't think it's reasonable for that to have happened. I have no idea how the cops delegate authority to the media, but it seems more likely to me that if the police asked for help it was because there already were two news helicopters out there to begin with.

07-28-2007, 08:41 PM	#42 (permalink)
shakran Tone.	I don't see where it implies that. When it says they are covering the chase, that means they are covering it for their stations, not the police.

07-29-2007, 10:34 PM	#50 (permalink)
Terrell Insane Location: Orlando, Florida	I think this crash amounts to pilot error, and the fleeing felon isn't responsible for it civilly or criminally, in my opinion. I agree with the other posters who say that it's a case of the pilots of the choppers who are responsible for their own deaths. Maybe their bosses if they are pressing them to take more risks in doing this. Perhaps there should be a different division of labor in the craft, is it possible that the pilot's job should simply be to fly the chopper, while another person in the chopper control the camera? You know, put the camera on a mount that allows it's aim to be adjusted independently of the direction that the chopper is pointed. If it were set up that way, perhaps the pilot could focus on making sure he doesn't collide with other pilots. (the above paraagraph is based on some of the CNN coverage I've seen of the crash)

07-31-2007, 06:26 AM	#57 (permalink)
RenaissanceII Psycho Location: Grand Rapids	My sense is that the Phoenix Police official who suggested that additional charges be filed in regards to the mid-air collision may have been politically motivated.... __________________ *And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom.* Anais Nin I Wish *You* Well.

07-31-2007, 12:36 PM	#59 (permalink)
Adri Tilted Location: Orange County (the annoying one)	It is possible that he could get hit with the felony murder law, whereby if someone's death can be directly attributed to your actions while you are in the process of committing a felony, you are charged for their murder. However, again, the responsibility for operating the choppers rested on the pilots themselves, and since a chopper crash isn't (previously... I guess now it is) a foreseeable consequence of a ground-driven police chase, it would be massively difficult to convict this guy for anything relating to this crash. Any damage or crashing that occurred on the streets during his chase, however, is all on him.

07-31-2007, 12:44 PM	#60 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Pilot error. Either one or both pilots were watching the road instead of the sky. It's a damned shame.

07-31-2007, 01:24 PM	#61 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	any logic that'd connect the guy being chased to the cause of the helicopter crash seems piss-poor. it takes the notion of responsibility for consequences--which would be the rationale for criminal law--and just runs with it in a kind of ridiculous way. if you are going to go this route, you might as well blame the cops for giving chase, or radio traffic for making that chase de facto public knowledge, or the news director of the tv stations (as shakran indicated above). you could even hold the tv news audience to account for it. hell, why not hold the mayor to account as well: after all, if the city wasnt there, this wouldnt have happened. or you could see this as an accident. sheesh. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

07-31-2007, 09:16 PM	#63 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	I can't tell you how many people have crashed their cars because they were just staring my bum. I can't be held responsible for all of them.