Kids these days...
 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19735896/

I don't know for sure, but i think that perhaps america has become a tad overly sensitive towards children. I could understand kicking a family off of a plane if the kid was screaming and the parent couldn't calm them down, but that doesn't really seem to be what was going on here.

What do you think? Have we reached a point where we're too sensitive about the existence of children? Where did the idea come from that we shouldn't have to deal with children acting like children in essentially public places? Would you have kicked this family off?

I wouldn't have.

I do know a lot of people who seem to steadfastly cling to the notion that children should be seen and not heard to the extent that when they see children behaving in perfectly normal ways they immediately attribute said behavior to a lack of parenting ability on the part of the parents. I guess that, as a parent, i have a difficult time finding sympathy for people who can't handle the ways in which children can be annoying.

It's not that i don't try to keep my kid well behaved, or that i won't leave a restaurant when the kid can't stop being noisy. It's just that if push came to shove i would choose letting my child behave in completely healthy and normal(though perhaps loud) ways over not annoying the fuck out of someone in a public place.

i definitely would have booted them off if they refused to shut their kid up. The can find another flight on another airline.

Why? What makes you think that it is necessarily always possible to shut a kid up in a reasonable way? It's not like the kid was yelling or even talking loudly, as far as we can tell at this point.

Is it just kids that should shut up, or would you kick off an adult for refusing to stop talking too?

I'm not a fan of children, I don't think other people's children are all that cute... and behavior a parent often finds cute, I find irritating... (I've had my chair kicked once too many times - I've said many many times that they make dogs fly in cargo- they should have a nice little padded room for children to fly there as well - the kid would probably prefer it.)

but the flight attendent seemed to be more intolerant than I am (I've never been impressed with the serive on express jets -- so it doesn't suprise me)

We seem to be missing the part of the story where the mother tried to Shush her child - doesn't seem like she did - listening to a child say bye bye plane woud be really annoying... after about 20 seconds

I'd love to be able to kick off adults who talk too loudly on their cell phones... or better yet, drop them into the jet engine :D

I don't want to judge the people based on that story. I don't like how the story is shown. It seems to be too biased towards the mother and child. Did they interview the flight attendant? If so, why is it not inside the article?

I think the stewardess totally overreacted as the story is written. I don't like kids when they're running out of control or loud, but it's the parents' job to control that.
I've come across a couple of really annoying passengers, including one who had me choking for 20 minutes because of her perfumed hand creme. Guess I should have had her kicked off...:rolleyes:

I would guess selfishness, but it could just be that some people don't understand what it means to be a parent. In order to live in this world, we have to live with other people. You can't be picky about who's on the plane with you unless they have a bomb or are going to smoke or something.

Yeah, I don't want to deal with your crappy kid. I didn't have kids for a reason, and if your kid can't sit still, be quiet, or behave, you should LEAVE. I'm tired of parents who think their kids shit smells like Chanel No. 5. I don't care, keep that little tyke away from me.

Here look at the stills of the video and decide for yourself if the mother can control the kid.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...9203_0_ALB.jpg
My aunt has had this sign on her restaurant forever. It's a simple request.

The other morning a young kid of 5 kept kicking Skogafoss in the shins as he sat on the subway. The mother kept telling him to stop but he didn't. She moved him to switch seats and he just kicked the girl standing next to Skogafoss. She kept smiling politely sorry. I'm sure she is horrified at her son, but to just keep telling him to stop it instead of walloping him a good one or something more than just "stop it now."

Problem is, at 19 months old, they don't know the consequences of sitting still, at least not for any length of time. She shouldn't have brought him to the show; all that did is boost the other side.
There are ways to keep a kid occupied so that he appears well behaved; the other side of the coin is exerting some measure of control very very early on so that you don't end up with a brat. We have been in restaurants with our toddlers and actually had people remark to us that they didn't know there were young children at the table behind them. People are too freakin afraid of hurting Jr.s' feelings or damaging some false idea of 'self esteem'.

Honestly I'd feel more inconvenienced by the plane turning around, and thus arriving at my destination late, than by a noisy child.

I bring earplugs on planes because you just can't count on anyone, parents or no, to be considerate.

Boost the other side, or prove that her kid is as unruly as the original story seems to dictate? I agree the stewardess was wrong in telling the woman to give Benadryl to her kid, the way that she told her, but based on the kid's behavior on a few scant minutes of television, I can't imagine how much better that little shit behaved himself in a confined space for a much longer period of time.

Thanks for posting this Cyn, now we have a bit more of a complete picture. It is quite possible, even likely that the child removal was justified. Could you imagine a kid like that behaving that way while you were trying to drive a car?

Is her restaurant inside a giant brain? It looks like the sign is on a giant brain.

Well I understand what it means to be a parent. My kid behaved himself on airplanes at that age because he was taught that behaving yourself is the proper thing to do on an airplane. But then my wife and I are what you would call hands on parents. We didn't dump him in daycare, we didn't plunk him in front of the TV, or the computer. We interacted with our kid and *raised* him. (well .. still raising him, but we're long past the age when being a jackass on an airplane is a potential problem.)

I'm very happy for you if you have children. That's a wonderful thing and it's a huge sacrifice you've made in order to bring them into this world. But you do not have the right to inflict them on other people. If they're being hellions in a restaurant, or a theater, you remove them. Obviously that's difficult on an airplane, but kids generally do only what they're sure they can get away with. My kid KNEW his world would crash around him if he acted like a dick on a plane, so he didn't do it.


Now, all that said, it's impossible to really tell what the kid was doing. Was he quietly muttering "byebye plane" in which case he was being a kid, and the stew needs to be shot, or was he screaming it at the top of his lungs while constantly kicking the chair in front of him in which case he and his mom need to be kicked off, and his mom needs to be tossed into the jet engine ;)


It could have been either of those extremes, or anywhere in between. based on that, it's difficult to judge this case.

nah happens to be the paint texture and lighting...

I do understand what you're saying, but being in a plane is a lot different than being in a restaurant. When they turned the plane around, that was way too far. The kid was just repeating a sentence. He wasn't screaming, crying, crapping, etc. I think the people on that plane, especially that snarky flight attendant (I would have had to been a human shield had this happened with our family; my wife would have killed her on the spot) could have been more understanding. I get that some people don't like, or even hate kids. Some of them smell funny. They don't follow social norms because they haven't developed the necessary maturity yet. Still, people put up with people who've used too much after-shave, with fat people in spandex, etc. I would classify this under much the same thing: the planet doesn't belong to one person, so you have to learn to reasonably live with the existence of others be they good to have around or not.

When I am on a plane or in a restaurant or anywhere else where I am paying to be there, I expect not to have a child ruining my time. I know this is not the child's fault, but I still shouldn't have to put up with it. A lot of kids would behave in the situation and the ones that can't should not be allowed to ruin the flight (or meal etc) of other paying patrons. I like kids, don't really want any of my own at this point, but I do expect that parents should be in control (not in an evil mean way) of their kids. I wouldn't have gotten away with that stuff as a kid, and if I were to be acting like that and not behaving I would be removed from the situation (by my parents). I do agree that in a lot of ways society has become overly sensitive towards children. I hate parents that because parenting is so much work (which it is and I respect beyond what I can express) everyone else owes them something. There is a reason I don't have children. When I do, that is what I will devote my life to in every way and I'm at this point not willing to do that. I'm off on a tangent here, but I don't think it's such a big deal that they were asked to get off the plane. It is great when people have kids, but it should be respected that they should not be imposed on other people.

Is it wrong that I'm disappointed?

I'm trying to find video of the child on GMA to see for myself then I came across this from earlier in the year, of a 3 year old.

Screaming? Tantrum?
I don't need to be subject to her "moments."

I don't frequent family friendly establishments and I see the difference in my life. In fact there was a period in my life where I can actually say I didn't ever see any children past those that got wheeled about in a stroller down the street. Other than that I saw no kids.

When I hang out at bars which is for over 21, and a parent brings in their toddler in tow. You are infringing upon me. I don't care if your little angel is acting like one. I don't want to be around children. I don't want to have to "watch what I say" because some kid might overhear it and copy it.

If there were airlines that had a no children policy for certain flights. I would fly it, I would be paying extra for that guarantee.

found the video

http://www.wsbtv.com/video/13675551/index.html

Kid was pretty unruly and the polite thank you he said was cute, but if he said it over and over and over, not so cute.

My son would have gotten me kicked off of many flights. Although I never had trouble taking my daughter out in public and having her act anything other than exemplary, my son was another story. Many a time I left restaurants or stores because of his behavior. Nothing I ever did stopped his outbursts, but I at least had consideration for the others around me. If my own child's actions annoyed me as his parent, I could see how others would find his behavior abhorrent.

If I had been kicked off a plane thusly, I would have been embarrassed and apologetic, not indignant.

I don't like what you are suggesting here. It has *nothing* to do with daycare and everything to do with being a parent.

*warrrreagl just walks by this thread whistling*

Our 2.5 year old son has been on a number of flights already and mostly he's been great, but it can be a struggle.

If he's really fussy I'll walk him up and down the aisle a few times, taking care not to let him grab or interfere with the sitting passengers. Most of them either look at me with good cheer or sympathy and a glare of disapproval is rare. What do you think of this technique?

Okay... in a restaurant or movie (just last night I rolled my eyes at a fussy kid at a 10p movie), yeah, you can remove your kid, do whatever you have to do. It's usually less than $50 bucks, and usually there's some room to adjust.

But she was on a PLANE on her way to go somewhere... had paid at least a hundred bucks or so. If the plane is taxi-ing, he's only been on there a few minutes. What a judgment call that stewardess made... wow. 10 minutes and she's decided she knows best? What a cunt. I would have had to restrain myself from slapping her upside the head. I think certain situations need a little more understanding. A little more patience.

Do I want a screaming kid on my flight? Of course not. Neither does the parent, I'm sure. If they could get the kid to shut up, I'm sure they would. Are they an incompetent parent? Possibly, yeah. But the guy in seat 4C with too much cologne on who's making the whole plane smell is a jerk too. So is the idiot talking to someone sitting 5 seats away. Oh, and the 20-somethings in the back who keep going up the aisle and bumping into me. Let's not forget the cart pushers who try to take out anything that's not inside your seat by 5 inches.

People are assholes. Kids are just better at being one than adults. If it were a movie theater, kick 'em out. But a plane has cost too much and involved too much in terms of time, etc.

Just so you know... chances are, you who "don't want to have to put up with someone else's kid" and all that... someone doesn't want to have to put up with you, either.

But you are willing to put up with it. I'm stating that I am willing to pay extra to NOT have to put up with it.

I have not stated that I wanted her to be removed. I don't know enough of the situation since it is highly subjective and again, most parents think their darlings are just that and cannot be little shits or that the shitty things that they are doing are cute and endearing. We also don't know if some passanger complained as well.

I don't like when my nephews who are 4 and 3 are acting up. I leave if my sister doesn't remove them from the area. The discomfort that a crying child brings to bear for me is unbearable for numerous reasons. I don't want to be subject to it and should not have to be if possible.

I'm willing to pay extra to go to a restaurant that says, "No Children" on the door and enforces it.

I'm willing to pay extra to be in an airplane that doesn't cater to those under 14.

I'm willing to pay extra for a movie ticket to not have a child crying in the middle of the movie.

To that end, I'd even be willing to join a club that has a set of rules that are enforced, that encompass poor behavior like the cologne, person sitting 10 yards away and being boistrous, and those other "asshole" behavoirs you listed.

Consider this place, TFP is a "club" we don't allow trollish behavoirs and we don't allow children. Yes. I'd pay extra to be in a place in the real world like this.

Not that you were the only one I was giving a hard time to, but okay... here:
1. Yeah, if the business is choosing to cater to a particular audience ala your aunt's restaurant, more power to them. But the airline doesn't have this as part of their business model. So it's wrong, to me.

2. I doubt very much that kids that are acting up are cute to their parents, either. I also don't consider "bye bye plane" to be acting up, if probably annoying.

I just get fed up with people and their "only MY wants/needs/desires matter! MINE MINE MINE!" That goes for parents that keep screaming kids in public places and people who want normal-level noisy kids kept away from any possible interaction with them.

I just want to say that i agree with these points.

I don't necessarily have a problem with businesses that exclude children.

I do try to keep my kid from being disruptive, and if it is reasonable to do so i tend to remove my kid from the area if she can't chill out. That being said, if you're the type who can't handle being in the same area as a whiny kid, then you and the whiny kid have a lot in common. The kid has a valid excuse for acting like a baby, what's yours?

Meh, its not kicking the people off the flight that irritates me, planes need quiet imo.

Telling someone to drug their child, thats a huge no-no in my book, which definatly merits throwing a fuss about.

Jaded.

Unfrotunately parents have proven time and time again that they will not even do what you consider reasonable. Parents cannot be spoken to or reasoned with at all especially if it's their entitled "right" to be there with their children at the movies, or the restaurant regardless of their behavior. If I were to politely suggest they leave or address their child's behavior, they get indignant.

It is unfortunate and as such, I decided that it is easier to avoid the situations as close to 100% as possible.

Haha, as I was reading down I was waiting for your response :-p

Anyways, I also think turning the plane around is a bit of an overreaction. Let's view the situation differently. What if, instead of a child, it was an adult with a severe mental impairment? What if a teenager with Downs was repeating a sentence over and over? It's still public transportation. They still have just as much right to a seat on the plane as the guy in the suit who just snores his way through the flight. What if it WAS a guy snoring? That's annoying too! What about the fat dude who damned near takes up two seats? What about a bitchy adult that is very demanding of her stewardess? I don't think I've EVER flown and had a flight that didn't have some annoying aspect to it. But it's public friggin' transportation. One doesn't generally expect more in a bus or a subway.

At any rate, I think people are becoming more ignorant and more intolerant all at the same time, and both are bad on their own, let along in unison. A kid kicking your seat? Sure, that might be a bit more of an issue. A kid talking, or as warrrreagl had been upset about in another child-related thread, a kid staring at you? Didn't your parents ever give you the "sticks and stones" speech? *sigh*

Let's be democratic. Why not put little voting machines on planes, kind of like the ones on "America's Funniest Home Videos" and let the passengers decide whether to boot the kid off? If enough people are annoyed, off they go. It leaves the decision up to the people most affected - fellow passengers.

I'm only sort of kidding.

On the one hand, flying is not a right. You're paying for a service provided by a private company who can do pretty much whatever they want, within reason. As long as they refund you the cost of the ticket, they can refuse you service. If you can't control your kid (and granted, a 19-month-old is pretty hard to "control") you probably shouldn't be flying. There are lots of things that you have to do without your kids, or wait to do till your kid is older. Maybe this is just one of them for people who have wild children.

On the other hand, the kid wasn't a safety hazard, to himself or others. I can see kicking off the kid who just wouldn't be seated. Everyone has to be seated for takeoff; them's the rules. This kid was just annoying. And there are lots of things on flights that are annoying, from the crowded conditions to not being able to recline your seat, to having the guy in front of you try to recline his seat anyhow and crush your knees, etc. I don't quite see how a loud kid is such a different class of annoyance that they should be barred from a flight. Unless the flight attendant can make a pretty compelling argument that this kid was interfering with her ability to do her job and keep the other passengers safe, this seems like a bit of an overreaction.

So what if they get indignant? People are assholes, it isn't just parents. It seems like maybe you had a bad experience or two and then just decided that all parents are unreasonable assholes and that all children are incapable of behaving.

Really, i understand that kids can be annoying sometimes, it's just that your criticism seems rather arbitrary. Many of them could be as accurately leveled at drunk people, but i imagine you're more willing to accept their behavior, or at the very least, not avoid places where you might come into contact with them.


But you know, before i had a kid, i could have really cared less about them. I was certainly more prone to being annoyed by them then to cut them some slack.

No, even in my drinking days, I didn't tolerate moronic drunks. I left the bar before all the "amateur" drinkers came in. It also meant I did not go to bars late on Friday and Saturday, St. Patrick's day, Cinco de Mayo, New Year's Eve, etc. because you are right, assholes abound.

There is no such thing as embarassment or shame any longer. No one is ashamed of anything. DUI, jail, whatever, no one cares anymore. I believe it is because we tolerate and allow it. I don't want to have to tolerate people's bad behavoir. I already have to tolerate my fair share of the assholea people on the bus and the subway, the sidewalks of NYC. I worked in Times Square for close to 11 years. I'm plum out of patience for moronics.

I saw this shirt on a child yelling and pointing at me today, and I smiled...
 

I had a couple of comments to make, but I would only be re-iterating the thoughts posted by willravel and the responses made by filtherton;
so, instead, here for you is a little mood-settling:

http://i14.tinypic.com/525vwp5.jpg

Another account of the story, this time with comments from passengers (from http://www.wusa9.com/news/news_artic...?storyid=60738)

The flight attendant was a piece of shit. As the mother of a 19-month-old son I have to say that, had I been in this situation, they would've definitely had to turn the plane around because I would've beaten the flight attendant into a bloody pulp. The kid wasn't crying, wasn't hitting anybody, wasn't screaming, wasn't running up and down the aisle... he was talking. OMG, a toddler talking? HOW UNUSUAL AND HORRIFYING!! AHHHH!!!

Also, there had already been an 11-hour delay for that flight. Those of you with toddlers know that no matter how wonderful your parenting is, a tired and bored toddler is often inconsolable. The flight attendant was so obsessed with herself that she was willing to further delay the flight just so she didn't have to listen to a kid say "Bye bye airplane." Yeah, I would've killed her.

I think the flight attendant was in the right here. I mean cmon... She wasnt asking the mother to cook up some heroin and stick the baby with a needle. She was talking about benedryl. I would hardly call that drugging the baby.

Well after reading that last article, it looks like the flight attendant may have been in the wrong, IMHO. Hard to tell from any of the stories, you dont really know what to think.

Agreed. It is hard to tell. I will only go by what the mother stated in the GMA interview where at around 1:00 of the interview I posted she states the was as fussy as he was at that point in the interview.

TotalMilf, to be honest, maybe the child isn't annoying directly (again, I refer to the child in the GMA interview, cute when he says "Thank You" but say it over and over, not so cute) but to also hear the parent say over and over, "Stop that." or whatever they decide they are saying as corrective action is equally unpleasant to hear over and over and over. Now I'm no longer hearing one person being annoying, but now it is doubled to two.

From the description in the story it sounds like the flight attendant was a total bitch. I have no idea how close to real events this was but as written I would have been pissed with her as well.

Yes, there are many parents who don't have a clue how to discipline their children. There are also kids who are good, that just don't travel well.

Until they offer flights that are child-free or child only... the answer to all you gripers is to suck it up.

On one hand parents have a responsibility to manage their children properly. On the other, people need to be more tolerant when kids are distressed (note I didn't say misbehaving).

1. I'd just like to mention that it's very common for people to be prescribed medicines for sedative purposes during travel, including young children- most notably those with ADHD or known hyperactivity/anxiety disorders. These can include valium, and are most commonly Benadryl when used for children.

It's a fairly common practice. I really don't think it's fair to freak out over "drugging her child".

I don't, however, agree with the stewardess' suggestion to the woman to do such a thing. It's inappropriate, and she has no authority to advise a person on taking medicines, let alone a child. Also, it's just a bitch move to tell someone to give their child something. She handled the situation in practically every bad way possible.

2. For some people, the simple act of a child saying the same thing over and over to infinity can be just as annoying as kicking/screaming/tantrum, given enough repetition. It's not fair to tell people what is and is not annoying to them. You can't say "no this isn't annoying to you because I say so". You may find it ok, or bearable, but that doesn't mean other people are assholes, insensitive, impatient, etc., just because they don't have the same high threshold for kiddie bullshit that you do.

I find country music completely unbearable to listen to. If it's on, I am heading in another direction to get away from it. It drives me up the wall. I'm sure many of those who would balk at the annoying habits of a child have your own pet peeves as well. Maybe you hate pop music, or classic rock, or maybe you hate a certain band. They're all pet peeves, people, and they're all things we just don't like to hear. Just because it's a child doesn't make it ok. For some people, their pet peeve is any noise coming out of any child. And you know what? You need to respect that everyone's pet peeves are different, and some people just cannot stand to hear certain things.

Somehow the stewardess comes off a bit too much as a self-centered power-hungry ego-tripping bitch. And there doesn't seem to be a statement of the airline or the stewardess herself, only the mother's side.

I do suspect the stewardess was the first to make a bad move. However, I think both parties handled it very poorly from there on.

And TotalMILF: I hope I never get on a plane with you :) If the toddler is so very tired and inconsolable after 11h, you should look into ways to get him to sleep imho, for his sake, his mother's sake, and right behind for everybody else on the plane.

Since I cannot sleep, I'd also like to add that more than likely everyone had to endure everyone else at the gate for 11 hours due to the delay. To say that it had just been "10 minutes" is shortsighted, it isn't like she just showed up and walked on the plane.

I do have to ask since others state my expectation is that I be more tolerant, just how long should I be tolerant for? Is 11 hours enough?

An actual number might be difficult to set, but let's draw the line when your eyes start to look like your avatar's

I'm not saying that it people don't have the right to become annoyed. What i'm saying is that i don't necessarily care if someone becomes annoyed at things a child does, especially when that child is just being a normal, behaving child, like the one in the op. Anyone who leaves their house with the expectation that they shouldn't be subject to annoying behavior could perhaps benefit from a ride in the waaaaaaaaaaambulance to the fantastical hospital of make believe - it's just up the street. Nobody becomes annoyed without, at the very least implicitly, deciding to.

The older i get, the more people i meet, the less i choose to get annoyed by all of the potentially annoying shit they do. You know why? Because getting annoyed is generally a giant fucking waste of time. Not to mention the fact that it's completely arbitrary- the fact that i might be annoyed by something says just as much about my coping skills as it does about the behavior that i find annoying. Like you said, everyone's pet peeves are different - the annoyance is found in the person, and not the behavior.

Yes, everyone has pet peeves, but as far as i can tell, no one has gotten kicked off of a plane because they were listening to country music. Sometimes handicapped people make me uncomfortable, perhaps if i ever start up a restaurant i'll follow cyn's aunt's lead and put up a sign prohibiting handicapped folks.

I agree.

Sorry sports fans - this is not an "adult lifestyle condominium" nor a bar, nor anywhere else with age restrictions. Families have to fly, just like everyone else. If you want a super quiet flight, pay for the privilege and go sit in business class.

What's next, kicking a baby who cries off a local bus or the food court? Stopping the subway?

This kid was apparently, by all accounts, just talking - it might be slightly annoying, but hardly out of control.

The airline is about to get its ass sued off, and rightly so.

well apparently busses are next... if a plunging neckline is a "safety reason" a crying baby will be as well.

Yeah, I don't buy that. You may adjust, after a period of time, to a state of indifference with regard to certain stimuli (like certain types of people, etc), but that does not mean that the things people find annoying are "chosen", or "decided upon".

There's a huge difference between "just talking nonstop" and "repeating the same sentence over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over...

for ten minutes or more." A huge difference.

And for someone who is getting up on the high horse about others' dislike of children, you're certainly quick to point out that you have an odd dislike for the handicapped... which I frankly find bizarre as all hell. You basically call us whiny for our pet peeve of annoying children, but your pet peeve is handicapped people? I don't care how old a person is, they've got some growing up to do if someone in a wheelchair weirds them out.

I'm sorry ma'am but your two year old is acting too much like a two year old. I thought the airline went a little overboard and removal was a bit extreme but you do get a lot of leeway and some parents cross the line. Then I saw the mum and her kid on some morning show and he was completely out of control.I think some parents forget how annoying their kids are and this one was completely out of control. A parent shouldn't allow kids to babble/shout incoherent shite for hours on end during a flight. Just because its a kid doesn't mean a completely different set of rules applies. Is it too outrageous to tell a kid to "shutup"?

Kids on planes do my head in generally. I never make eye contact with one..Maybe put them in the cargo hold?

I'm am going to guess that the kid and others that have been mentioned are not very well disciplined. Why do I make that assumption? I base it off the fact that the parents are willing to go on the national news to tell everyone their boo-hoo sob story about how they got kicked off a plane because their kid wouldn't shut-up.

I know that when I was young, if I EVER acted in a manner that caused a plane to be turned around, 1) my parents would be apologizing profously for the trouble that I caused. 2) My rear end would have been padled (probably in front of the passengers) with out question, resulting in a very sore behind.


Any parent thats worth a damn would have been very embarassed that their kid caused such a commotion, and if they felt it was wrong, probably would seek to settle things with management instead flaunting their lack of parental abilities all over the news.

I don't care if you buy it, i'm not really expecting a large return. It's not that important.

Well, to be honest with you, i don't really have a problem with the handicapped, it was more an embellishment for the sake of argument, i.e. if we treated handicapped people the way some of you want to treat children simply because they might make some of us uncomfortable then there'd be a fucking public outcry. This is because people are expected to overlook violations of social norms in the context of interacting with handicapped people. I certainly don't advocate banning people from otherwise public places simply because their presence makes me uncomfortable or annoyed.

You're comparing the mere existence of a handicapped person with the outward, inescapable noises/behavior of a child. That's not nearly the same thing.

Experiencing discomfort because a person is handicapped is your own personal issue with that person's existence, at all, in your life. Being annoyed by a child in this context is not simply because they're sitting there, existing where you can see them, but because they are actively (mis)behaving in a manner you dislike- i.e., making noise.

Using this example, your discomfort with the handicapped is your own; they are doing nothing to provoke or instill that discomfort. They are just "being". The child, however, is providing auditory stimuli that affects you negatively. It is not you who decided the existence of the child annoying, it is the child's behavior that makes them annoying. Huge difference.

Not everyone is annoyed by the same things. As stated, I'm annoyed by certain types of music that many others love; I'm sure the feeling is mutual in a reciprocal fashion for some of those people and my musical preferences. No one judges people for being annoyed by things, but the fact that I'm annoyed by loud, misbehaving children seems to make people think they're then empowered to go right ahead and judge me.

Me finding loud, misbehaving children annoying is no less legitimate than someone finding standing in long lines to be annoying. Like any other topic, the universal truth seems to carry on; just because it's a kid, people feel justified in talking down to you and disregarding you because you have anti-kid opinions.

[rant]
And you know what? I'm not anti-kid. I'm anti-being-annoyed, and ANYONE being loud, obnoxious, misbehaving in public annoys me. I deal with children on a somewhat regular basis with my clinicals, will deal with them more once I'm actually out in the field working, and I couldn't be happier to be helping them. I rather enjoy helping kids, actually, because they're actually grateful for the help (even if still scared), more often than not, whereas "adult" patients tend to do nothing but try to lie to me, and are more often rude, indifferent, or grumpy that I'm trying to help them... and I'm happy to help them as well.
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I disagree. Many so called "handicapped" people make noises, drool and moan as part of just "being". If I were someone who gets annoyed with this, I am in my right to ask them to, "Stop with the moaning and twitching or we're turning this plane around!"

I don't think so.

Kids can be annoying. So can other people. Suck it up or fly business.

i can't say what really happened here from the links - but as a rule of thumb i have to side with the family in this case on general principle. for me to feel comfortable advocating turning a plane around and removing a family, on father's day weekend, this kid would have had to be strapped with c4, spontaneously excreting and puking, singing 'spice girls' lyrics through a portable kareoke machine...something.

in my experience...flying these days sucks for everyone involved. it's uncomfortable, people are pushed up on you the whole time. your flight is delayed, you have to switch gates...the chick next to you is reading some odd religious text in large print and wants to talk about it, the guy on the other side is wider than all outside and keeps putting his sweaty elbows up on you. kids behind you are kicking the seat, old lady in front of you smells like rotten cabbage and has protruding nose hair...and needs to shave a little on her upper lip. maybe i'm a weirdo, but i tend to rather feel like if everyone just chills the fuck out and doesn't get too pissy with each other, everyone pulls through this thing easier and faster.

i don't really expect flying to be like a handjob in a 5-star hotel. i just expect it to get me where i'm going. i know that it's going to be a pain in the ass before i walk into the airport. if i was on this flight, i might have been annoyed by the kid. sure.

i would have been much much more annoyed by the flight attendant turning the plane around and showing her ass. I would have demanded a refund from the airline too. fuck them. it would be like going to the dentist, getting jacked up on nitrous, having the novacaine injected, just getting started with the filling (after a 4 hr wait or so reading 'reader's digest')...then having the dentist and the attendant get into a fight because the attendant doesn't like my 'antrax rulz' t-shirt and she refuses to help the dentist, and so i have to go back to the waiting room until another attendant is available and i can change t-shirts. its just fucking unprofessional. as a professional, you deal with the fucking public if that's your job.

i guess i find it difficult to understand the sanctimonious attitude of some of you. i can understand you being annoyed by someone's behavior. so fucking what? i don't understand expecting everyone else to give a shit because you're annoyed - and certainly not enough to fuck up everyone else's day so you can get satisfaction for your pet peeve. if traveling in comfort is really that important to you, i suggest you avoid public transportation in coach.

pig, where have you been all my life?



I guess i missed the memo where you got ultimate and final pet peeve validation privileges. So pet peeves based on auditory and or visual stimulation are more important than ones that aren't? That's a pretty arbitrary line you draw there.

It doesn't matter, the important thing isn't the means of my annoyance, you said as much when you claimed that, "You need to respect that everyone's pet peeves are different." The important thing is that i'm hypothetically annoyed by a certain class of people, and therefore, as in the case of cyn's aunt, it is righteous and just of me to actively exclude said people from places i like to go, or vise versa.

Here's the thing, i used to get annoyed by kids, then i had one. Now, i don't get annoyed so much. Nothing changed about me, i just don't really get annoyed by kids anymore - even if they are actively engaging in behavior i don't like. When i see or hear a kid being rambunctious, it's more like, "What the fuck is wrong with that person? Oh, it's a kid, that makes sense."

Is that really you, analog, lamenting the how judgmental other people are? At least no one is trying to kick you off a plane because they don't like your music.

Who's talking down to you? What are you talking about? It seems to me that whenever the topic comes up there is rarely a shortage of self proclaimed experts ready to rant about how horrible the parents are, or how shitty kids are. You really have to ignore a lot of details to try and claim victimhood here.

Nobody likes being annoyed, and this isn't necessarily about anybody not having the right be be annoyed, it's about what you do with that annoyance.

Please run for public office. Eloquently stated.

...huh?

Thanks, pig - that's what I was *trying* to say, if rather clumsily.

Why should your pet peeves about kids... or anything else... take precedence? Who made you so important? We are all annoying to someone. So what? Get over yourselves. To turn a plane around is ridiculous.

I agree.

I really just had issue with the idea that being annoyed by a child was not a legitimate gripe. I very much believe the stewardess was out of line with her behavior and ultimate reaction (kicking them off).

It was wrong, and the flight attendant KNEW it was wrong. Why else would she have lied to the pilots, claiming that a woman threatened her?

Thousands of dollars worth of asses in those seats, and apparently she didn't think storming into the cabin screaming "A BABY IS BEING MILDLY UNRULY!" was going to take the cake. Wonder why?

I'm not sure I understand some people who seem to be against the mom. Anyone care to answer these?

1) The plane had not even taken off yet. Why are some people making it sound as if they had been enduring the child's jabbering for ages?

2) What gives ANYONE the right to suggest a person take medication other than a professional, let along suggest someone give their child something. While children's benedryl may be a common placater, who is to say the child doesn't have some adverse reaction, or is taking other meds that would conflict? Hell, the airline should be lucky the mom wasn't like, "Oh, really? Give me some" *flight attendant offers her bottle* *child dies on flight*

WTF?

... but, isn't explaining "the why part of it" the reason forum exists!? :confused:

I'll take the first question.

The flight was delayed for 11 hours. I have to get to the airport at least 1 hour before the flight, and sometimes I am there 2 hours because TSA sometimes takes forever to process of busy days. So sitting in the gate area, everyone was around everyone for at least 11 hours quite possibly easy to even say 13 at the absolute longest if people were there 2 hours before the flight. Again, it isn't like they showed up and got on the plane. So 11 hours of listening to this child squirm and say "Bye Bye Plane," or whatever he was doing. Again, I say watch the video of the child on Good Morning America, since the mother states that he is as fussy as he "now" as he was that day. Well the whole time he's fidgeting and moving about. 11 hours.

Here's another guess of mine, some poeple have stated in the interview that they were willing to just keep going and not turn around. A good possibilty that they are benevolent child lovers, but also the possiblity that they were just "sucking it up" because they wanted to go home and didn't want another single minute delay after enduring an 11 hour delay to get onto a 1 hour flight.

For flight attendant, I don't know if many know this but most flight attendants aren't salaried, they are also not paid hourly either. They are paid in block time. So this means that the flight attendant didn't get paid for those 11 hours standing at the gate waiting. I'd probably be just as annoyed as the passangers on the trip knowing I've been someplace for 1/2 a day for a routine 1 hour flight and only getting paid for that 1 hour.

I'm not saying that the kid wasn't annoying. I'm not even saying that the kid was very well-behaved. I'm saying that so the fuck what if he was annoying? So what if the flight attendant had a bad day? Boo-fucking-hoo. After an 11 hour delay, the only reason to turn that plane around should have been a bomb or something. Not an annoying kid.

I haven't once suggested that turning the plane around was acceptable.

so we're all in agreement on the acceptable outcomes - we only differ in whether we theoretically would have been wanting to bust a cap in this kid's ass? i can live with that.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y29...the-a-team.jpg

I love it when a plan comes together.

oh, and filthy: i been bizzy...but i think i'm going to be able to get back on more now.

I guess that's the point.

I would be first in stating that if the flight attendant thought for a moment that the child was unruly, she should have not allowed the mother and child to board the plane. This would be the same thing that would be done for any visibly drunk passenger. It probably still would have made the news, but I think that the impact would be greatly different.

i don't know cyn - that would be an interesting precedent. what i'm wondering is whether an airline could make $$$ having a segregated 'families' section on their flights. kind of like first class - maybe still coach seats, but a little divider to separate them out and muffle the sounds.

Adults understand what they're doing and how annoying it is. They should be kicked off once the plane is at cruising altitude.
Ban them from the flight, too. People who feel entitled to conveniences and luxuries not afforded to others should not be catered to. If I fly, I shower right before I leave and use a third of the amount of cologne I usually do, if any. I don't talk to other passengers other than a quick, "excuse me" as I pass and maybe a "good morning" when I sit down next to them.
If you remove your kid from the are when she's acting up, then you're doing what you should as a parent. If a parent brings a child into a confined space, they had better teach the child to act appropriately. If the child isn't old enough to understand consideration for others, the parents shouldn't bring him into a confined space for hours with no way out. Having and raising a child is a responsibility, not a right.
No, it isn't public transportation. I pay a private company that answers only to its stockholders and customers to get me from one place to another on a privately owned vehicle. Buses and subways are subsidized to minimize costs for convenience of use and do not carry the responsibility of providing an environment that encourages repeat business. An airline that allows any sort of unpleasant environment to exist without any attempt to rectify the situation will lose customers, failing to maximize profits for its stockholders. American Airlines provided me with terrible customer service pre-flight, a rude flight attendant, allowed a man who was so drunk he could barely stand onto the flight, and absolutely no attempt to compensate me for time and money lost, not even an apology; I refuse to do business with AA because of it.

If I fly with another airline and they provide an unpleasant environment by delaying my flight and calling me with an incorrect flight time that causes me to miss my rescheduled flight, refusing to ask parents to calm loud children, allowing someone two drinks away from a coma to board and sit behind me, employing rude flight attendants who make sarcastic remarks instead of even simply apologizing for the inconvenience of sitting in a seat with a broken back, no A/C in 110° heat, a broken TV to not watch during the flight, and refusing to admit they did anything wrong, they're not getting my business, either.
I wouldn't say all of them, but at least half of people shouldn't be trusted with raising pets, never mind children.
Because the flight had been delayed for 11 hours and they had been waiting in the airport with her.
I'd pay more for either a separate area for people with kids or for a flight with a guarantee of no disruptive passengers.

msd,

just a couple of quick points:

1. i don't think it's always so easy to guess when a child is going to behave or not. even if your child is normally well behaved - sometimes funny things happen with kids. they're just not as self-aware as most adults are. i guess i don't expect them to anti-septic little fountains of placidity until it's time for a kodak moment. i don't think that's realistic.

2. i have to say i find it sort of amusing not to think of airlines as a form of de facto public transportation. they only stay in business because of bailouts at the hands of american taxpayers. i really have no idea why they haven't just been nationalized already, other than a lot of people would have ape shit fits over the semantic shift.

Rights and responsibilities aren't mutually exclusive. I would say that if you are not able to be in a confined space with people who annoy you than you shouldn't be in there either.

That being said, kids aren't computers. You can teach them shit all you want, but in they end there is always some random probability that they will do something else. The idea that a parent can always be in control of a child's behavior is an ill-informed one - kids do have minds of their own.

True, as a founding member of the Electron Club, seeking the path of least resistence I tend to leave the area immediately when screaming, misbehaving, or distressed children make themselves present. I don't immediately pack up once a child enters my 200 sq. foot perimeter.

But again, I do selectively seek out establishments that are not kid friendly to diminish my need to have to leave due to those situations.

What I can say about pricing structures is that most parents will not take children to a place that is $25+/pp for dinner. Again, it helps that I generally don't go to the corporate food establishments, Ruby Tuesdays, Applebee's, etc.

A couple years ago my sister came to town with my nephew and asked me to help her find kid friendly establishments which specifically meant they had to have at least a high chair offering. Many NYC restaurants do not have the capability to offer a single high chair that alone also works in my favor.

I love threads where non-parents bitch and moan. You're such a superior person it really is a shame you won't be contributing your genes to the future of the world. There is a certain amount of growing up that you can only get by raising kids.

There is absolutely no fucking way I'd drug my child for a flight.

I don't mind other people's kids being noisy on airplanes. It just comforting to know that it's not mine, and I don't have to do anything.

But It doesn't sound like this kid was crying or tantruming. Just your typical repetetive statements done when they are pre-occupied.

I get a strong feeling that they got kicked off because the attendant got pissed off at the mother for "talking back" instead of saying "yes ma'am".

In other words, the attendant through her own hissy fit because she didn't get her way and she had the power to invoke some policy.

Doe no one else question what type of parent volunteers to go on the national news/talk show circuit and talk about how their "angel of a child" got them kicked off of an airplane?

I am all for kids acting like kids. That's their job at that age. I just shouldn't have to be subjected to it, within reason. I think some kids can fly just fine, and others maybe not. As a parent, you may have to drive if your child isn't fit for travel. That's one of the sacrifices you make when you chose to have kids. Yes children have the right to transportation as well, but they have to follow the rules as well. I understand this is difficult and really almost unfair for a child. If I were a parent I would probably chose to drive until I was sure my kid would be quiet enough to fly. If I had to put up with him or her in the car for 10 hours, well then that's the way life goes. It's unfair to expect kids to behave all the time, they're kids! But it's also unfair to expect everyone else to put up with children misbehaving. I was at the chiropractor today waiting to get in, and there were 4 kids playing in the waiting room, being loud, screaming and fighting. I was getting very annoyed, and rather than sit there and continue to get more annoyed I simply asked the receptionist to call my cell phone when it was my turn and I went and sat in the peace and quiet of my car. Unfortunately this isn't an option on an airplane. I haven't mentioned annoying adults, as this thread is about a specific incident involving a child. I feel the same way about annoying adults as well. If they can't behave on a plane, remove them. As for someone who perhaps has a disability (I work in a group home with disabled adults), most people would not put someone with a disability in a situation where it is going to cause them stress and have them act out. If they were and it was essential for them to fly, I would think they would need something to calm them down in order to get through the flight, just like it should be for anyone else. I dunno, I guess we all have different views on the subject.

i think the idea of not bringing your kids on a plane, if you suspect one of them may actually act like a kid, is a lot more attractive....before you have kids.

all of a sudden, you have to fly from toronto to the florida keys to see dear old granddad, and you've only got a week. driving one way would almost take the entire time, and well...what are you going to do? never visit relatives who live prohibitively far away for driving? never go to europe? so much for china or japan?

i think that sounds nice, but it's completely impractical in many situations.

it's kind of funny, i can see some bastard having a heart attack next to cyn on a plane, and cyn kind of getting pissed about it ruining his day. 'hey fat man...keep it down. jesus!' :P

Actually, no. One of the sacrifices you have to make if you want to fly in perfect peace and quiet is to upgrade to business class, where there are likely to be very few children.

You see, you have a choice. You can upgrade your ticket, you can perhaps choose a flight less likely to have children on it - especially useful for short haul flights as the early morning flights are almost entirely populated by business travellers. Or maybe you can do as you suggest families do and just not fly? Drive yourself.

But if a parent wants to bring their kid across the Atlantic to see their grandparents, they have no choice. They're not taking a cruise for the most part as no one has the time. My daughter is pretty good about flying, but yeah, she might cry at some point. She might even get airsick (hasn't happened yet but it's a possiblity). First asshat that tries to kick us off a plane for her doing that is going to get both barrels from me.

I agree that if a child is being VERY disruptive - to the point where safety may be jeopardized - it is appropriate to take them off the plane, and chalk that up to a harsh reality. But little Johnny would have to be pulling open the emergency exit doors or running around with box cutters before that's likely to happen.

Actually I know many families who did not do anything outside of the house and homes of other families until the kids grew up to about 7-10 for that very reason. No, they did not travel to see sick relatives with the whole family, only sent a representative of the family when the children were young. If both parents had to attend for whatever reason, they left the child behind with other arrangements.

They didn't NEVER get on a plane. They didn't get on a plane with young children, nor go out to restaurants or movies. It was and is a simple sacrifice for courtesy. That is also another choice.

As far as some bastard (sic) having a heart attack next to me. analog would save the man's life as would I since I used to be CPR certified and analog is currently certified.

In my lifetime I did have someone have a heart attack right in front of me as I was walking into the elevator lobby going to work. He collapsed and I stepped over him. I paused long enough to see he was clutching his heart and then as I looked over the room someone else yelled out that they were CPR trained. At that point I left the scene and continued to my office. A few hours later I found out that he had died on the floor. Knowing that someone died in front of me, that ruined my day more than anything ever has.

I don't expect perfect peace and quiet. I expect reasonable peace and quiet.

I don't expect screaming uncontrollable adults. I don't expect screaming uncontrollable children.

I don't think that is unreasonable.

I would gather to say not different than you not expecting your neighbor to use power tools in the middle of the night or have a barking dog during all hours. Those aren't unreasonable expectations.

[QUOTE=Cynthetiq]Actually I know many families who did not do anything outside of the house and homes of other families until the kids grew up to about 7-10 for that very reason. No, they did not travel to see sick relatives with the whole family, only sent a representative of the family when the children were young. If both parents had to attend for whatever reason, they left the child behind with other arrangements.

They didn't NEVER get on a plane. They didn't get on a plane with young children, nor go out to restaurants or movies. It was and is a simple sacrifice for courtesy. That is also another choice. [?QUOTE]

You really think that people gave up family holidays and seeing relatives as a courtesy to those without children?

I have a large bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell you, if you believe that. People do make choices not to travel when they have young children. Young kids are often not terribly entertained by the Louvre, Versailles, St. Paul's, and the Great Wall of China the way older children and adults are. They don't get much out of a large expenditure and my child is pretty happy playing in the local park. But I can pretty much guarantee that the majority really aren't making your comfort part of the equation when deciding whether or not to travel.


Lovely - equating a child to a dog.

At any rate, you're back apples and oranges. Noise ordinances and nuisance pet by-laws exist for a reason in most communities. Such by-laws certainly don't pertain to children traveling on heavily government subsidized transportation.

[QUOTE=highthief]Two things, Never said a majority, just said it is a choice, some cultures take public embarassment seriously. Yours does not, but many Asian cultures do.

Second, I didn't equate a child to a dog. You did. I just stated a reasonagle expectation. I can tell you in NYC noise laws aren't as important as someone's health laws, since now you can be "prescribed" an animal as a stress reliever. It's gone to the courts and lost.

Well, if the leash fits...