Judy Taber

In the ways of thought, culture, style, beauty, etc? Why are they considered so "refined"?

Supple Cow

Says who?

Judy Taber

It just seems to me to be that way I suppose. It seems that Paris is the fashion, culinary, literary capital of the world, the most romantic, the most literate, the most enlightened, etc. You never hear anyone travel to Paris and complain about the food or the atmosphere.

Plan9

Epitome?

Yeah, if sophistication is reeking of wet trash smell and cigarette smoke.

Maybe.

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Charlatan

Judy, first off, Paris is very different from the rest of France.

As for France being the epitome of culture, they do have a lot of great culture, food, etc. But when it comes down to it it's all just great PR and attitude. There is a lot of great culture in many parts of the world, the French have managed to make a study of promoting their above all others.

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pig

oh, that's because it's a lot of fun. i don't give a shit about french fashion, and i don't necessarily like all their food...but a whip ass bottle of wine, fresh chicken and vegetables and a little bread goes a long way towards a good day. i don't know about the literate or enlightened bit, but it is a fun place to hang out...or at least, it can be.

They do have some pretty sweet stuff. I enjoyed this in Nancy, and a lot of people think Nancy sucks balls.

Le Parc de la Pépinière

complete with zoo, food, drinks, and a garden with clock made of flowers. it works.

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Judy Taber

I suppose its a matter of feel. I understand the part about it being just a slice of France, but Paris is the capital, the culmination of everything french so to speak. That clock motif is a perfect example...where some cities introduce themselves to the world with a few printed letters on a thin metal sign on a post, they make that clock.

Halx

French is a very smooth and sexy language. That's really all that I admire about that country. Well.. and the fact that their democracy works better than ours.

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Plan9

Well, maybe it is all the nukes...

# France derives 75% of its electricity from nuclear energy. This is due to a long-standing policy based on energy security.
# France is the world's largest net exporter of electricity, and gains over EUR 3 billion per year from this.
# France has been very active in developing nuclear technology, and reactor technology is a major export.

I mean, the country is tiny and has 59 nuclear reactors.

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Willravel

I always thought that the epitome of sophistication was the Christian church using a cross that Jesus died on as their logo.

willynilly

Historically, France was always the big dog in Europe. It was the largest and most powerful country in Europe, which by western standards was the most important. For hundreds of years they were one united country, vs the tiny countries of the netherlands, switzerland, so on. Germany was not united until late in the game. France was also colonizing as heavily as anybody. The French were in egypt, the Pacific, South America, etc... the French colonized India before the Brits and were still in India when the Brits left. The country has also always been Catholic so it has always had the support of the Catholic church and its long arm through the centuries. France had a long and very succesful monarchy that created great monuments to themselves. Just look at Versailles. It wipes out anything else created at that time. When you compare all of that history and how dominant it was shaping Europe, then you see its influence. It is hard to have "culture" without heritage.

Baraka_Guru

The French has the benefit of a long (and often highly successful) tradition in the following areas (with only a few examples):

• Literature (Rabelais, Balzac, Flaubert, Proust, Camus, Hugo, Baudelaire, Montaigne... (this is the shortlist))
• Philosophy (Tocqueville, Voltaire, Rousseau, Sartre, Barthes, Derrida, Lacan, etc.)
• Art (Claude Monet, The Louvre, etc.)
• Music (Berlioz, Bizet, Ravel, Debussy, Bartók, Satie, Daft Punk)
• Cuisine (they invented the following: crème brûlée, hollandaise sauce, crème fraîche, coq au vin)
• Military (The Normans rocked the Britons' world, and they took out their king because they didn't like the idea of monarchy anymore)
• Language (...nearly 50% of the English language is derived from French, thanks mainly to the Normans)

The French also brought the following to the world:

• The Statue of Liberty
• Braille
• The diesel engine
• The Eiffel Tower
• Stethoscopes
• Hot air balloons
• Digital calculators
• Pasteurization
• Parachutes
• The sewing machine
• Bikinis!

There are many reasons to look up to the French; not least of which includes the fact that the country is responsible for producing both of these women:






Brigitte Bardot



Audrey Tautou


The sense of sophistication comes out of a society of innovation and cultural richness... over a very long history. But it really is about perspective, though: What have they done lately?

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World's King

I'll ask the chef at my restaurant... He's VERY French.


Although I'm pretty sure he showers.

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jorgelito

Marketing. They have good marketing. The reputation is not well deserved.

As with most things, it is quite subjective.

Creizen

As an englishman, I must retain my right to make fun of the french and make some critizisms(all in good humor).

#1 French people smell, "le body odur" as one who can't speak french may smirk is out of control in france. How can smelly people be considered refined?

#2 French people eat snails and frogs and other crazy ass swamp food, don't trust them!

#3 I like french toast, so nice.. wait er crap forget that.

#4 If france was so good, why do so many aslyum seekers have to wait in france hoping to go to the lovely shores of England. Surely they'd just live in france.(actually england is incredibly lenient on them if they get here, just actually getting through security)

#5 The french can't actually drive, they instead just zoom about their roads like crazy people, crashing into everything all the time.

There are many more reasons, but I wouldn't want to offend any frenchies here too much, note I don't necessarily mean all of this, just the kind of generalisitic things the english come up with and keep. We always have a rivalry with france so its expected!

I've only been to france twice, once to Lyon for a short break, was a nice place, and also to Paris for an art trip to the Louvre and Musee d'orsay. I'd say in terms of Art and Fashion its top notch but anything else is just like many other cultures you'd find. I got a good impression of things except for the gypsies that bothered us on the way to Lyon at some stop. Sorry wait, "travellers" is the politically correct term for them.

(also eh? france always the big dog? what happened to the British Empire??? well it collapsed lol but I mean I'm fairly sure we were the big dogs at the time, even tho british bulldogs aren't that big, plus I don't see Napoleon being very successful at the end of things when they went against us, we knocked him into an island prison in the most remote place in the world afaik). Also I don't see the majority of India speaking french, they speak english..we made most of the impact there.)

Charlatan

Are you kidding?

I can agree with the marketing but historically their additions to global culture are very significant.

They may not be the powerhouse they once were and their reputation may in large part stem from past success but to say they are nothing, to say they don't deserve that reputation is just wrong (on many levels).

France as the land of culture stems in large part from what has been stated above about their political and economic power in years gone by. Much as Rome and Athens can claim an important place in our cultural, political and social history because their importance at one time, so can France.

One can argue that the US does this as well, though their influence is more on pop culture (which didn't really exist as a mass consumable when Athens, Rome and Paris were doing their things).

Much of the slamming on France stems from the same place as the slamming you see on the US today. Envy.

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The Faba

Those are contradictory statements sir.

I must say, I believe Sarkozy can turn France around.

Nimetic

I think that one factor is that for the British, historically, an educated person would have some grasp of basic French (and/or Latin, but France was the nearest neighbor). Hence a certain snobbery - an 'educated' person could use French to confuse or show their "class".

This is purely a theory of mine... I'm not British and have no strong grasp of history.

But yeah... my theory is that... this attitude has rubbed off on other English speaking nations.

It's probably helped by the number of French words have been incorporated into English. These allow the snob to pompously use French pronunciation in an English conversation ("cafe", "latte", etc) .... a way of gently showing their knowlege, if not of the language, of a few of it's words.

BTW, I hope this is not taken the wrong way - as an affront to true French speakers. Some people have geniune ability with the language. And... the French have contribed to scientific, philosophy, art, culture in many ways. For sure, they make good films. Heck, their up to their fifth republic already aren't they?

Haha. Sadly I think that if I were to learn French, it'd not be to read philosophy or literature in its original language - it'd be simply so I could blow away (as in humiliate , insult and outdo) the next snot nosed wanker that intoned latte or cafe (or moi) in my presence.

aKula

Not only the British. France was culturally dominant throughout Europe. Frederick the Great spoke french; his palace is named Sanssouci. Ever read Tolstoy? French is sprinkled throughout the dialogues. The russian aristocracy spoke french as well. French is also considered a particularly pleasing language to the ear.

France was a cultural centre for a long period and it remains so. It also wielded significant political and military power, making it a focal point for the European ruling classes.

Now you'd probably have to dig deeper to find reasons on how it originally obtained such a reputation.

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Nimetic

Seems true. The British empire was bigger I thought - and turned out better in the longer term it seems.

The French have no equivalent of Canada, India, Australia.... New Zealand, Malaysia, Singapore... er... Hong Kong. That I can think of.

But not to hold this against them. It's a historical quirk probably. The brits had various advantages arising from living on an island.

Grasshopper Green

I know several people who have been to Paris and found it dirty, full of rude people, and frankly, overrated. I'm not sure why Paris (and France in general) have obtained the above reputation; I'm sure that the numerous theories here all have something to do with. I love to travel, and Paris is pretty far down on the list of places I want to see; I suppose it all boils down to personal opinion.

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filtherton

Three words: pepe le pew

POW!

jorgelito

I am not kidding. It most definitely is subjective (but then again, we might be talking about different things).

I think their reputation is overblown and overhyped. That is not to say that they are bad or have made no contributions. Just that they are not the end all be all.

For a more nerdy answer: The French reputation defnitely stemmed from their time as top dog in Europe until the British suprassed them in the 18th-19th century. Like mentioned before, French was the language of the aristocracy and nobility. It was the lingua franca. Many if not most royal courts tried to emulate the French. After British dominance, the emergence of nationalism and the nation-state revived French passions and a new surge in "all things French" occurred within France. Heavy campaigns and promotions of instilling the idea of "Frenchness" became commonplace and instilled a fierce national pride among Frenchman that continues today.

What makes the French "annoying" to many people, is the exaggerated effect of their constant whining and need to be recognized for their contributions. Add to that the perceived stuck-upness creates a negative view of the French and backlash.

And so the hype and marketing continues.

greytone

French is still the official language of diplomacy. Therefore people who think diplomats are civilized think French is civilized. English has become the language of the global economy because of the size and strength of the Victorian British empire and that has been reinforced by the power of the American economy. People who aspire to sophistication tend to think crass commercialism is so gauche. English, itself, derives from a combination of German and French (in their ancient forms). Before 1066 the English in power were descended from Germanic tribes. Then William (who was a cousin that came from a branch of the family in Normandy) felt slighted and invaded to prove a point and conquered England. Because the Normans spoke French, the nobility used more French words. Words used by the lowly are derived from German. Think about the words used in farming. But when the food hit the table you can see French derivation. Think "beef" and how close it is to the French word.

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ngdawg

And champagne! Can't forget that....
Ives St Laurent, Coco Chanel, Gerard Gepardieu....
We gave them....EuroDisney

Diplomatically, they haven't done squat lately, but they are still the center of the fashion world(newbie models usually are sent to Paris to get their feet wet before embarking on their careers here), there's still Cannes and the Riviera, for example-France is a status symbol with a rich history and they have intention of letting go of that, I'd say, even with all the negative press they've gotten in recent years.

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snowy

Untrue...the French once had an empire nearly as large as the British had. Canada belonged to France first, after all, and they DID sell a rather large portion of territory in the Louisiana Purchase. In the post-colonial era, though, they gave a lot of their territories independence, but they still have territories throughout the world, including significant portions of Polynesia and the Caribbean. As a result of this, French is still widely spoken in some parts of Africa and Southeast Asia.

It is hard to quantify the influence that the French have had on worldwide culture, but they have had an enormous influence on American culture, whether we realize it or not. France was the first country the United States had diplomatic relations with, and that had a strong effect on our early government, and our ideals (France was the home of the Enlightenment, after all), an influence that remains today.

I could write an entire essay on this--in fact, somewhere I have a 14-page paper on how the French have influenced American fashion, in particular the fashions of Worth and Chanel. A great book to read on the influence of Paris on Americans is Seductive Journey: American Tourists in Paris From Jefferson to the Jazz Age: http://www.amazon.com/Seductive-Jour...1539848&sr=8-3
It does an excellent job of explaining exactly why Paris is a cultural powerhouse, why France has enjoyed the influence Paris exerts on the rest of the world, and precisely how much American culture has been affected by the French.

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Plan9

Uawh, Uawh, Uawh! WE ARE ZEE FRENCH!

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Shauk

you know, I always hear the stinky french comments but after living with the beer swilling pizza chomping slob type of people for roomates off and on thru-out the last several years, I gotta say, it can't be any worst than your typical fatass american. (thats not to say that americans are typically fatasses, but that the fatass variety usually have the stink to go with it) I think i've dropped enough political incorrectness in this thread. My job here is done

abaya

Well, my only major beefs with France is that they suck at integrating their immigrants and they're as asininely monolingual as the US.

Paris in itself can be nice, for a few days... but I prefer to visit other European cities (even French cities), if I have the time and money to be on the mainland.

It helps immensely that my husband is fluent in French, however.

You made me laugh. Nice one.

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biznatch

I'm french, and I used to get very defensive about my country. I've lived most of my life in the US (Almost 15 years), but I've gone to France to visit my family a few months every year of my life until recently. So I kind of know both countries well.
I've heard mixed things from Americans who've gone to France. One of my buddies from colorado went to Dunkerque (an industrial town in the north of France), so I'm not surprised that he had a shit time there.
However, most of the people I've talked to who've mentioned that they went went to France told me they loved it.
Here's the trick that works most of the time if you're an American visiting Paris. If you're trying to get help from someone, or you're just trying to start a conversation, try and use whatever amount of French you know(even if it's only a few words or sentences). Often what'll happen is they'll return the favor and if they know your language they'll reply with however much they know.
Keep in mind France is the most visited country in the world, so one thing we have no shortage of is tourists. If they see you make an effort to communicate, be friendly and interact with them, a lot of them will appreciate that.
Of course, there are assholes and bitter people in every country. Don't despair if you meet a stereotypical Parisian. Walk away, and stay positive. I can almost guarantee that if you do this you'll have a great time.

To answer the OP, I think the best way to know why is to find out for yourself. Taking a trip in France can be a nice experience.
I don't think we're the most refined, or sophisticated, but we're often portrayed as such, for some reason.

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snowy

I found this to be absolutely true when I was visiting Paris a number of years ago. I was treated much more politely than some of the Americans I saw because I made the effort.

And really, Americans shouldn't get all huffy when they go to a foreign country and get picked on for not speaking the language--after all, a number of Americans expect visitors here to speak English, don't they?

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Zeraph

I think it comes from how it used to be. Though i admit I don't know more than the average person when it comes to history, but I'm pretty sure it used to be what the OP said and now its just carrying over for a bit. Pretty soon I don't think it will be thought of that way anymore (maybe within 100 yrs).

jorgelito

Don't forget the impact of American culture on the French too.

Charlatan

American culture is overrated...

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ngdawg

We have a culture???

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Sultana

Don't underestimate the power of sea monkies...

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highthief

You did foist McDonald's, Michael Jackson and Jerry Lewis on them, you know.

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QuasiMondo

I think it's because they have hard to pronounce words. All of those useless silent letters in their words, like 'rendezvous' and 'croix' and 'Hors d’œuvre' <--(see? who else would merge the o and the e like that to make a supervowel?)

They hoist their superiority upon us by watching us struggle about trying to say this stuff.

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Sweetpea

because they have those accents.... They have had refined tradition for centuries that they have kept up over time, they value their traditions...

I'm biased.

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Ourcrazymodern?

The French are avid self-promoters.
And willing to take abuse.

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