(semi-rant)avoid digg for now.. - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Karby · 05-01-2007, 08:49 PM

please note: some of what i'm writing is being paraphrased from the 'something awful' forum, since the guys there do a pretty good job of explaining everything.

..so i go to check digg like i usually do when i'm looking for interesting to read, and notice that the entire front page looks something similar to this.
after doing a little searching, i find out that digg's owners have been deleting posts (and ip banning members who post) a certain string of hex numbers, which supposedly allows linux users to circumvent hd dvd piracy protection.
now i don't care about this much because:

1. i'm not a linux user, and
2. even if i were, i'd have no idea how to put this to good use, so it's effectively useless to me.

so now digg's main user base has gotten their panties in a bunch, because they feel that the whole "democratic process" of digg is a sham, and because digg's owners are ignoring the users, who (according to the members) make the site what it is.
blog entry that better explains: http://www.cjmillisock.com/2007/05/h...from-digg.html

digg is saying that posting the key violates trade secret protections laws, and the users are retorting that you can't copyright a number. according to some (over at SA anyway) the numbers have been available for several months. all in all the whole damn thing is ridiculous. i've known for a while that the majority of digg users were incredibly juvenile, but this just takes it. nothing is getting on the front because of a hex key that probably less than 1% of the general population know how to use. so now almost the entire site ha been rendered defunct because a bunch of little nerds can't have their way. anyways, i'd steer away from digg at the moment, as it is practically useless right now...reddit here i come

p.s. not linking to the something awful thread, sorry

JumpinJesus · 05-01-2007, 09:02 PM

The internet will kill us all.

What a fucking waste of energy.

Dilbert1234567 · 05-01-2007, 10:02 PM

the owners are afraid of being sued. even if there is no real case, they will be tied up in legal crap for years.

i side with digg on this one, it's their page, they run it how they want to.

furthermore, the number is out and about there is no need to keep spamming it on digg, it's not going away, if digg doesn't want it, they can post it elsewhere. I'm sure the pirate bay would be happy to have that on there front page.

http://blog.digg.com/?p=74

they flipped.

Quote:

Today was an insane day. And as the founder of Digg, I just wanted to post my thoughts…

In building and shaping the site I’ve always tried to stay as hands on as possible. We’ve always given site moderation (digging/burying) power to the community. Occasionally we step in to remove stories that violate our terms of use (eg. linking to pornography, illegal downloads, racial hate sites, etc.). So today was a difficult day for us. We had to decide whether to remove stories containing a single code based on a cease and desist declaration. We had to make a call, and in our desire to avoid a scenario where Digg would be interrupted or shut down, we decided to comply and remove the stories with the code.

But now, after seeing hundreds of stories and reading thousands of comments, you’ve made it clear. You’d rather see Digg go down fighting than bow down to a bigger company. We hear you, and effective immediately we won’t delete stories or comments containing the code and will deal with whatever the consequences might be.

If we lose, then what the hell, at least we died trying.

Digg on,

Kevin

goddfather40 · 05-01-2007, 10:44 PM

This made the top of <a href="http://www.drudgereport.com">Drudge Report</a> under the headline: " 'Geek Riot' at Digg.com after story pulled... "

LOL

Leave it to Mr. Drudge for a headline like that. I guess for us geeks it really was as close to a real riot as we'll ever get though. As Dilbert1234567 said above, Digg has flipped their position and is now allowing the hex string to be posted. Unfortunately, Digg is totally clogged with diggs related to the "scandal" and is pretty much unreadable right now.

SecretMethod70 · 05-01-2007, 10:46 PM

People getting upset about this is a load of crap. It only confirms what many have suspected for quite some time: that Digg has a large population of immature twits. I only hope that maybe this will cause them to leave.

Let's deconstruct some of the claims:

Not allowing the hex string to be posted violates my freedom of speech!

Bullshit. Digg is not a government entity, it is a private website. Just like TFP has the right to set rules regarding what can and cannot be said, Digg does as well. You do not have the right to say whatever you want on the website someone else is paying for and controls.

You can't copyright a string of letters and numbers!

It's too bad the problem with the numbers has nothing to do with them being copyrighted. The DMCA forbids the distribution of any knowledge regarding the circumventing of copy protection, and distributing the hex string is doing just that. There is absolutely no debate about it: allowing the string to remain on their page is illegal. It may not be a good law, but it is sadly the law nonetheless.

Digg should stick up for its users instead of censoring them

That's really easy to say when you're not the owner of the website/company that will be sued to oblivion. Digg does not have the resources to fight the MPAA. They are not Google. Kevin Rose, et al are the people who will be personally affected by a run-in with the MPAA, not any of the cowardly users who insist on posting the string on the website. (More on this below*)

As someone commented on one of the numerous stories on Digg, how about the people who insist on posting the string do so while also posting their full name and address so that the MPAA can easily find them.

OK, but Digg didn't have to go banning users

Digg didn't start banning users until they turned into a bunch of children and repeatedly submitted the same stories with the hex string, after noticing that such stories were being removed. The users that were banned fully deserved it for intentionally antagonizing the issue.

*I saw Kevin's blog post earlier tonight and I'm torn. The fact is, I agree with the spirit of it. The DMCA is a terrible law, and the MPAA is a corrupt organization. It's nice to have people who will stick up to them. That said, I really hope that Kevin didn't come to that decision based on the gang mentality of what I'm sure is only a fraction of Digg users.

I like Kevin (as much as one can like someone who is a friendly internet show host and creator of cool things

), and I trust in his sincerity on this issue. I do not doubt that, when they initially made the decision to censor the string, it was a difficult choice. Kevin's old video podcast, The Broken, is just one example that he is not the kind of person who is a defender of the DMCA. But he's also an intelligent person, and he knows the consequences of being a high-profile target for violating the law. If the MPAA chooses to take serious action on this, Digg will be shut down, and who knows what kind of damage Kevin may suffer personally. I can only hope he made this decision because it's something he chose to do and believes in, not because he felt backed into a corner by a vocal fraction of Digg users crippling his site.

Finally, you'll note that I edited the string out of the starting post of this thread. TFP isn't high profile, and chances are there's no reason to worry about the string being posted here, but it's not my site and I'm not about to take that chance without first confirming with Halx, who is currently asleep. So, for now, the string will not be allowed on the site. If Halx decides that he doesn't care, then so be it.

Dilbert1234567 · 05-01-2007, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SecretMethod70

It only confirms what many have suspected for quite some time: that Digg has a large population of immature twits. I only hope that maybe this will cause them to leave.

quoted for truth.

i've been pretty weary latly of digg, a lot of crap stories are getting through that are clearly inacurate. one i saw was that bit torrent encryption was broken. bit torrent uses RC4 encryption, broken my ass.

ubertuber · 05-02-2007, 02:12 AM

Great post SM70!

I can't see any point in going to Digg anytime soon... It looks like there won't be anything interesting to read there for a bit.

pig · 05-02-2007, 03:57 AM

main page looks ok at present; i love these little mini controversies. who knows? if it helps to highlight another example of how the dmca laws are seriously fucked, maybe not a bad thing. hopefully it will just be a shitstorm memory for digg soon enough.

kylere · 05-02-2007, 04:13 AM

The heart of the matter is that Digg is a company, and they fear being sued for this, just as Google is being sued for all the nimrods that are using Youtube for content belonging to the MPAA/RIAA/MAFIA. The fact is that maybe one in hundred thousand digg users even comprehend what those hex values mean, and on in maybe 50k know what hex is(well there are always the charmed fans who will think it means spell of some sort lol) But regardless of that, those values are so google cached now, in MD5 format, as IP addresses, as the hex result to math problems etc. that there is no way to suppress the data, so now all the AOL err Myspace err Digg users (really all the same thing) need to take a pharmaceutical level qualude and chill. What I find really funny is the owner stepping up and posting the data himself after 3-plus hours of it being posted and removed, basically he told everyone the score to the Superbowl a week later and expected them to be impressed.

Honestly, my memory is quirky, I am stuck with knowing that string forever now. My brain is in violation of the law, and I cannot even use Safe Harbor provisions because there is no way to remove the content...sigh.

Halx · 05-02-2007, 04:26 AM

It seems the inmates are running the assylum.

Seems to have washed over for now, but the "geek riot" comment is awesome.

SecretMethod70 · 05-02-2007, 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kylere

What I find really funny is the owner stepping up and posting the data himself after 3-plus hours of it being posted and removed, basically he told everyone the score to the Superbowl a week later and expected them to be impressed.

Just a quick correction, he wasn't meaning to impress anyone. The reason he posted the string was a display of solidarity, in effect putting weight behind his words. He didn't just say they'd stop censoring the string, he took initiative and posted it himself after coming to that decision.

Anyway, inmates running the asylum indeed.

kylere · 05-02-2007, 05:34 AM

SecretMethod,

I am not sure that either of us is entirely right, and we may both be entirely wrong. But in the end, him posting it was silly :-) However, since Digg generates ad revenue from all the page refreshes, it makes complete sense.

MSD · 05-02-2007, 05:54 AM

News Flash: The average Digg user is an idiot.

guthmund · 05-02-2007, 06:20 AM

Idiots they may be, but they stood up for something and, for better or worse, they "won."

Legalities aside, everybody bitches about the DMCA, but few people go so far as to fight it publicly. He's standing by his base and for that I applaud him. Eventually, someone is going to come after him and I hope then the Digg community returns the favor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by from Kevin's statement

If we lose, then what the hell, at least we died trying.

Quoted for Truth.

kylere · 05-02-2007, 06:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrSelfDestruct

News Flash: The average Digg user is an idiot.

heh I thought I had already made that point when I mentioned that AOL/Myspace/digg users were all the same :-)

skier · 05-02-2007, 10:40 AM

As far as the whole "threatening sites with legal action for posting a string of hex numbers" goes i think it's fairly safe to say that to prevent further dissemination the MPAA is going to have to sue the entirety of the internets to try and stop its spread. And that would be such a ridiculous lawsuit that news agencies would pick it up and you better believe they will mention links that lead to the hex number.

I hope that if Rose gets sued over this that he makes a call for legal support from it's users that so adamantly demanded their right to post whatever they want.

ubertuber · 05-02-2007, 10:52 AM

Well, the MPAA probably wouldn't try to sue everyone - at least not at first. Even if it was a throw-away lawsuit, digg would have to pay lawyers to say so. Whatever the state of the law is, the MPAA can bleed money by causing you to refute their inaccurate claims.

Val_1 · 05-02-2007, 02:56 PM

Digg's front page got screwed up for a few hours. This is a reason for avoiding the site? There were tons of interesting stories on Digg today.

I don't blame the Digg owner for deleting the posts. It's his prerogative to. Getting sued is no fun.

The users rebelled. I don't fault them; they are right that a company can't control a string of hex digits. It's possibly the dumbest security code I've seen outside of a grandmother's password. But, they were being a bit immature about the whole thing. But it was funny.

MPAA does have to accept that the hex string is out in the wild.

A mild annoyance. Even as the internet is concerned.

rogerroger7 · 05-06-2007, 04:23 PM

SM, I think you miss the point. People like posting at digg partially because of the freedom inherent and the atmosphere that is non-commercial. If shit like this is allowed it is just the beginning. Soon enough you won't be able to post anything about a company unless it is personally approved by them first. Who wants that? We have every right to leave the site if we want.

About somethign awful, god i hate that place. The owner just wants to get rich. Fuck him.

hulk · 05-06-2007, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rogerroger7

SM, I think you miss the point. People like posting at digg partially because of the freedom inherent and the atmosphere that is non-commercial. If shit like this is allowed it is just the beginning. Soon enough you won't be able to post anything about a company unless it is personally approved by them first. Who wants that? We have every right to leave the site if we want.

About somethign awful, god i hate that place. The owner just wants to get rich. Fuck him.

Is that cynicism or paranoia?

1010011010 · 05-06-2007, 05:03 PM

Digg received some funding from HD-DVD. So the reaction was not "Ah, Digg has taken down 0x09F911029D74E35BD84156C5635688C0 as a self-protective measure due to DCMA concerns" is was "Digg has taken down 0x09F911029D74E35BD84156C5635688C0 due to corporate censorship." If/when Digg gets the barratry smackdown, they can expect community support in return due to the choice they made to support the user.

It's fine that you don't understand the issue. Try not to belittle the protesters while asserting your ignorance.

Dilbert1234567 · 05-06-2007, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rogerroger7

SM, I think you miss the point. People like posting at digg partially because of the freedom inherent and the atmosphere that is non-commercial. If shit like this is allowed it is just the beginning. Soon enough you won't be able to post anything about a company unless it is personally approved by them first. Who wants that? We have every right to leave the site if we want.

you missed the point entirely. the issues is that posting that number breaks the law, it's not opinion, and not protected. the stupid DMCA (loosely) says that anything that can be used to circumvent DRM is illegal. hence posting that on the site is breaking the law and thus DIGG is liable. this is the same as when people post child porn on DIGG, (I've seen it before) if DIGG lets it stay, they are breaking the law and will get in trouble. if you dont agree with the law, protest the law, don't defy it.

ubertuber · 05-06-2007, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1010011010

DIf/when Digg gets the barratry smackdown, they can expect community support in return due to the choice they made to support the user.

It's fine that you don't understand the issue. Try not to belittle the protesters while asserting your ignorance.

I would be completely flabbergasted if Digg received actual monetary support that was proportionate to the size of the "protest". People are quick to get up in arms when all it takes is a couple of clicks, but not many put their money where their mouth is - especially when it's somebody else's ass on the line.

By the way, I don't think protest is the right word. It was more of a riot.

Lasereth · 05-06-2007, 05:26 PM

1. Kevin Rose was being smart by getting rid of the articles with the code in it.

2. Most digg users are linux/wii/ubuntu/doityourself/fighttheman/antiDRM fanboys who are foaming at the mouth to praise what they think is neat and completely flame anyone or anything who goes against it even if they have a legit discussion.

3. I quit going to Digg long before this happened because of the sheer amount of worthless topics that make it to teh front page, usually starting with "Cool new" and ending with "you've ever seen" and it being completely boring, extremely off topic, and even false in many cases. Some of the articles that are posted go totally against their topic yet they make it to the front page because they're dugg without anyone reading them.

Dilbert1234567 · 05-06-2007, 05:33 PM

i'd love to run an experiment give a story a baity title ('digg getting shut down, digg now') and have the page link to 'this is just an experiment, if you read this, don't digg.' and see how fast it gets to 1000 diggs.

Lasereth · 05-06-2007, 05:52 PM

Ha ha ha ha oh man that would be great.

One article said "New mechanical robotic house can repair itself from earthquakes"

Go into the article...and the walls are made out of some slightly different type of material that can withstand small cracks (barely visible cracks). It doesn't actually repair them. The house isn't robotic or mechanical. Hell, it's not even revolutionary. Yet it got to Digg's front page because the title made it sound cool. I seriously hate that site because it's a who-can-make-the-best-sounding-title contest, not an "is this article worth reading" page like it's supposed to be.

JumpinJesus · 05-06-2007, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasereth

Ha ha ha ha oh man that would be great.

One article said "New mechanical robotic house can repair itself from earthquakes"

Go into the article...and the walls are made out of some slightly different type of material that can withstand small cracks (barely visible cracks). It doesn't actually repair them. The house isn't robotic or mechanical. Hell, it's not even revolutionary. Yet it got to Digg's front page because the title made it sound cool. I seriously hate that site because it's a who-can-make-the-best-sounding-title contest, not an "is this article worth reading" page like it's supposed to be.

So, basically, it's Fark.

SecretMethod70 · 05-06-2007, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1010011010

Digg received some funding from HD-DVD. So the reaction was not "Ah, Digg has taken down 0x09F911029D74E35BD84156C5635688C0 as a self-protective measure due to DCMA concerns" is was "Digg has taken down 0x09F911029D74E35BD84156C5635688C0 due to corporate censorship." If/when Digg gets the barratry smackdown, they can expect community support in return due to the choice they made to support the user.

It's fine that you don't understand the issue. Try not to belittle the protesters while asserting your ignorance.

Correlation does not equal causation

Furthermore, even if that were the case it doesn't change the fact that posting the hex string is illegal and that it's not the protesters whose asses are on the line by copying, pasting, and clicking. Like I said, if the protesters had any balls, they would have all posted their full name and home address when they repeatedly posted the code, this way the MPAA could easily find them and they could personally "fight the power" all they want.

hulk · 05-06-2007, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SecretMethod70

Correlation does not equal causation

Furthermore, even if that were the case it doesn't change the fact that posting the hex string is illegal and that it's not the protesters whose asses are on the line by copying, pasting, and clicking. Like I said, if the protesters had any balls, they would have all posted their full name and home address when they repeatedly posted the code, this way the MPAA could easily find them and they could personally "fight the power" all they want.

Agreed. Anonymous spamming of a string (contrary to the wishes of the institution they claim they're fighting for, mind you. Try figure that one out) is hardly a great show of support.

World's King · 05-06-2007, 10:43 PM

Boo-Hoo... You stole my digital lollipop...

Shut the fuck up. It's the internet. It's run by loner computer geeks that have nothing better to do.

This is the same group of people that will talk to you for six days straight about all the things where wrong with the LOTR movies and then go home and jerk off onto a Peter Jackson action figure. And don't worry... he has two more in still in the box.

1010011010 · 05-07-2007, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SecretMethod70

Correlation does not equal causation

Perception of reality is not reality. I can make links to wikipedia, too!

Quote:

Originally Posted by SecretMethod70

Furthermore, even if that were the case it doesn't change the fact that posting the hex string is illegal and that it's not the protesters whose asses are on the line by copying, pasting, and clicking.

How would you propose changing the fact that it's illegal? Disobedience to bad law has been a pretty common method of fomenting change.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SecretMethod70

Like I said, if the protesters had any balls, they would have all posted their full name and home address when they repeatedly posted the code, this way the MPAA could easily find them and they could personally "fight the power" all they want.

I was under the impression that getting topics to the top of digg ranking is via the relatively anonymous "Digg it" mechanism. There is no means for the protestors to helpfully line up against the wall.

fnaqzna · 05-07-2007, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasereth

Ha ha ha ha oh man that would be great.

One article said "New mechanical robotic house can repair itself from earthquakes"

Go into the article...and the walls are made out of some slightly different type of material that can withstand small cracks (barely visible cracks). It doesn't actually repair them. The house isn't robotic or mechanical. Hell, it's not even revolutionary. Yet it got to Digg's front page because the title made it sound cool. I seriously hate that site because it's a who-can-make-the-best-sounding-title contest, not an "is this article worth reading" page like it's supposed to be.

...but, but... have you seen some of the AMAZING photographs from Flickr?

Redjake · 05-07-2007, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JumpinJesus

So, basically, it's Fark.

I laughed out loud when I read that.......quoted for truth x 100000000

SecretMethod70 · 05-07-2007, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1010011010

How would you propose changing the fact that it's illegal? Disobedience to bad law has been a pretty common method of fomenting change.

Yes, and the reason it has worked in the past is because the civil disobedience and the people who would be punished because of said civil disobedience were the same. In this case, shitting in your sandbox is only going to help get the sandbox taken away, not change who manages the playground.

Quote:

I was under the impression that getting topics to the top of digg ranking is via the relatively anonymous "Digg it" mechanism. There is no means for the protestors to helpfully line up against the wall.

I have to wonder why you are arguing for the protesters when apparently you don't really know what you're arguing for. First off, along with submitting a link to Digg, one can provide a description. They could have put their name and address in there. Second, the comments to all the articles were also spammed with hundreds (thousands?) of copies of the code. Each of those comments could have been accompanied with the identification of the poster. Anyway, this isn't really a serious suggestion. The point is that, social website or not, Digg is not the place for their civil disobedience. If they want to be disobedient, they need to find a way to tie their own fate to the outcome of their action, otherwise it's pointless and ineffective (and, last but not least, incredibly disrespectful to the people who create things for them to use).

ubertuber · 05-07-2007, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SecretMethod70

Yes, and the reason it has worked in the past is because the civil disobedience and the people who would be punished because of said civil disobedience were the same people. In this case, shitting in your sandbox is only going to help get the sandbox taken away, not change who manages the playground.I have to wonder why you are arguing for the protesters when apparently you don't really know what you're arguing for. First off, along with submitting a link to Digg, one can provide a description. They could have put their name and address in there. Second, the comments to all the articles were also spammed with hundreds (thousands?) of copies of the code. Each of those comments could have been accompanied with the identification of the poster. Anyway, this isn't really a serious suggestion. The point is that, social website or not, Digg is not the place for their civil disobedience. If they want to be disobedient, they need to find a way to tie their own fate to the outcome of their action, otherwise it's pointless and ineffective (and, last but not least, incredibly disrespectful to the people who create things for them to use).

And that's why I'd characterize this particular disturbance in the force as a riot, not a protest. It's got more in common with vandalism than civil disobedience.

1010011010 · 05-08-2007, 01:31 PM

First off, along with sumitting a link to Digg, one provides their username
Second, the comments to the articles each were accompanied by the username of the poster.

analog · 05-08-2007, 02:18 PM

I agree it was more like a riot... fanboys, scriptkiddies, and general idiot youngsters all chomping at the bit to stick it to the man while bucking against the system that says you can't disseminate an alphanumeric string.

And regarding the "you can't copyright a hex string" nonsense- you sure as shit can. What do you think every form of digital media IS? Music, video, it's all just strings of numbers and letters- and you're all very familiar with just how copyrighted those are.

The reality is, 99.2% of all the wastes of space who participated in this revolt would never in a million years be clever or smart enough to have found the hex code themselves, yet claim the royal "we" when they say "fuck the MPAA, we have the hex code now!"

The oddest disconnect I see in this is the overwhelming suspension of logic these people undertake. I mean, I hate the MPAA as much as the next person, but hating the MPAA doesn't make me suddenly blind and stupid to the reality of the DMCA law- something which most of these anti-MPAA people are. Just because you hate their methods and everything they stand for doesn't suddenly nullify or blink out of existence the DMCA law that says it's illegal to share the codes.

Even POT HEADS aren't dumb enough to think that disagreement with a law means you can break it all you want without consequence. Sheesh.

hulk · 05-08-2007, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1010011010

First off, along with sumitting a link to Digg, one provides their username
Second, the comments to the articles each were accompanied by the username of the poster.

And? Usernames mean precisely dick. I could spam links to all sorts of illegal material with the username 1010011010 if I was so inclined.

SecretMethod70 · 05-08-2007, 07:54 PM

The EFF explains the situation pretty well (as would be expected).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Electronic Frontier Foundation

09 f9: A Legal Primer
May 02, 2007

As was reported back in February, an enterprising hacker unearthed and posted one of the decryption keys used by AACS to decode HD-DVD movies (other keys and exploits have been made available in the weeks since). Now the AACS-LA (the entity that licenses AACS to makers of HD-DVD players) has set its lawyers on the futile mission of trying to get every instance of at least one key (hint: it begins with 09 f9) removed from the Internet.

Predictably, this legal effort has backfired, resulting in eternal Internet fame for the key in question. In addition to having been posted on hundreds of thousands of web sites (and resulting in the temporary shutdown of Digg.com), the key has already spawned a song, a quiz, a domain name, and numerous T-shirts.

So now might be a good time to review a few of the basic legal issues raised by the posting of the keys. (This is an overview of the legal landscape, not legal advice, and I am not expressing any view about how a case might come out if AACS-LA sued anyone.)

What is the AACS-LA's argument? In its takedown letters, the AACS-LA claims that hosting the key violates the DMCA's ban on trafficking in circumvention devices. The DMCA provides that:

No person shall ... offer to the public, provide, or otherwise traffic in any technology, product, service, device, component, or part thereof that that -

(A) is primarily designed or produced for the purpose of circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title;

(B) has only limited commercially significant purpose or use other than to circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title; or

(C) is marketed by that person or another acting in concert with that person with that person's knowledge for use in circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title.

The AACS-LA presumably would argue that the key is a "component" or "part" of a "technology" that circumvents AACS. Moreover, AACS-LA would likely argue that the key was "primarily ... produced" to circumvent AACS, that is has no other commercially significant purpose, and that it is being "marketed" for use in a circumvention technology. The takedown letters seem to take the position that both the poster and the hosting provider are engaged in "trafficking."

The AACS-LA will also doubtless point to the DMCA cases brought against 2600 magazine for posting the DeCSS code back in 2000 (EFF was counsel to the defendant). In that case, both the district court and court of appeals concluded that posting DeCSS to a website violated the DMCA.

Who can sue over the posting of the key? The DMCA entitles "anyone injured by a violation" to bring a civil lawsuit seeking damages (including statutory damages ranging between $200 and $2500 for each "offer"). In addition, if a person violates the DMCA "willfully and for purposes of commercial gain," a federal prosecutor could bring criminal charges (with the famous exception of the Sklyarov case, however, criminal prosecutions have generally been limited to situations where the DMCA violation was also accompanied by evidence of commercial piracy).

What about just linking to a place where the key is posted? The courts in the DeCSS case wrestled with the proper test to apply when someone links to a location where a circumvention tool can be found. Ultimately, the district court held that an injunction against linking could be issued after a final judgment if a the plaintiff could show, by clear and convincing evidence,

"that those responsible for the link (a) know at the relevant time that the offending material is on the linked-to site, (b) know that it is circumvention technology that may not lawfully be offered, and (c) create or maintain the link for the purpose of disseminating that technology."

The court of appeals upheld that ruling, while admitting that the issue presented a difficult First Amendment question.

What about the DMCA safe harbors? While no court has ruled on the issue, AACS-LA will almost certainly argue that the DMCA safe harbors do not protect online service providers who host or link to the key (the AACS-LA takedown letters do not invoke the DMCA "notice-and-takedown" provisions, nor do they include the required elements for such a takedown, thereby signaling the AACS-LA position on this). The DMCA safe harbors apply to liabilities arising from "infringement of copyright." Several courts have suggested that trafficking in circumvention tools is not "copyright infringement," but a separate violation of a "para-copyright" provision.

It's difficult to say how a court would rule on this question, but it does create a specter of monetary liability for hosting providers, even if they otherwise comply with the "notice-and-takedown" procedures required by the DMCA safe harbors.

Is the key copyrightable? It doesn't matter. The AACS-LA takedown letter is not claiming that the key is copyrightable, but rather that it is (or is a component of) a circumvention technology. The DMCA does not require that a circumvention technology be, itself, copyrightable to enjoy protection.

For more information about the continuing melt-down of AACS generally, as well as details regarding the various keys and how they interact, be sure to read the coverage on Doom9's forums, Freedom to Tinker, and Engadget, which have been doing the best job reporting on developments.

Posted by Fred von Lohmann at 09:36 AM

rogerroger7 · 05-09-2007, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hulk

Is that cynicism or paranoia?

Which part ?

On the not being able to post without a company's permission. It is quite possible things could come to that. If free speech isn't protected and placed above the rights of corporations in their quest for protecting profits and image, this could very well be. I've been on forums for example where the owner would delete TRUE things about a company being bad mouthed simply because he was afraid of being sued.

05-01-2007, 08:49 PM	#1 (permalink)
Karby Psycho Location: somewhere	(semi-rant)avoid digg for now.. please note: some of what i'm writing is being paraphrased from the 'something awful' forum, since the guys there do a pretty good job of explaining everything. ..so i go to check digg like i usually do when i'm looking for interesting to read, and notice that the entire front page looks something similar to this. after doing a little searching, i find out that digg's owners have been deleting posts (and ip banning members who post) a certain string of hex numbers, which supposedly allows linux users to circumvent hd dvd piracy protection. now i don't care about this much because: 1. i'm not a linux user, and 2. even if i were, i'd have no idea how to put this to good use, so it's effectively useless to me. so now digg's main user base has gotten their panties in a bunch, because they feel that the whole "democratic process" of digg is a sham, and because digg's owners are ignoring the users, who (according to the members) make the site what it is. blog entry that better explains: http://www.cjmillisock.com/2007/05/h...from-digg.html digg is saying that posting the key violates trade secret protections laws, and the users are retorting that you can't copyright a number. according to some (over at SA anyway) the numbers have been available for several months. all in all the whole damn thing is ridiculous. i've known for a while that the majority of digg users were incredibly juvenile, but this just takes it. nothing is getting on the front because of a hex key that probably less than 1% of the general population know how to use. so now almost the entire site ha been rendered defunct because a bunch of little nerds can't have their way. anyways, i'd steer away from digg at the moment, as it is practically useless right now...reddit here i come p.s. not linking to the something awful thread, sorry __________________ ~my karma ran over my dogma.~ Last edited by SecretMethod70; 05-01-2007 at 10:47 PM..

05-01-2007, 09:02 PM	#2 (permalink)
JumpinJesus Junkie Location: Chicago	The internet will kill us all. What a fucking waste of energy. __________________ "I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

05-01-2007, 10:44 PM	#4 (permalink)
goddfather40 Llama Location: Cali-for-nye-a	This made the top of <a href="http://www.drudgereport.com">Drudge Report</a> under the headline: " 'Geek Riot' at Digg.com after story pulled... " LOL Leave it to Mr. Drudge for a headline like that. I guess for us geeks it really was as close to a real riot as we'll ever get though. As Dilbert1234567 said above, Digg has flipped their position and is now allowing the hex string to be posted. Unfortunately, Digg is totally clogged with diggs related to the "scandal" and is pretty much unreadable right now. __________________ My name is goddfather40 and I approved this message. I got ho's and I got bitches, In C++ I branch with switches -MC Plus+

05-01-2007, 10:46 PM	#5 (permalink)
SecretMethod70 Human Administrator Location: Chicago	People getting upset about this is a load of crap. It only confirms what many have suspected for quite some time: that Digg has a large population of immature twits. I only hope that maybe this will cause them to leave. Let's deconstruct some of the claims: Not allowing the hex string to be posted violates my freedom of speech! Bullshit. Digg is not a government entity, it is a private website. Just like TFP has the right to set rules regarding what can and cannot be said, Digg does as well. You do not have the right to say whatever you want on the website someone else is paying for and controls. You can't copyright a string of letters and numbers! It's too bad the problem with the numbers has nothing to do with them being copyrighted. The DMCA forbids the distribution of any knowledge regarding the circumventing of copy protection, and distributing the hex string is doing just that. There is absolutely no debate about it: allowing the string to remain on their page is illegal. It may not be a good law, but it is sadly the law nonetheless. Digg should stick up for its users instead of censoring them That's really easy to say when you're not the owner of the website/company that will be sued to oblivion. Digg does not have the resources to fight the MPAA. They are not Google. Kevin Rose, et al are the people who will be personally affected by a run-in with the MPAA, not any of the cowardly users who insist on posting the string on the website. (More on this below) As someone commented on one of the numerous stories on Digg, how about the people who insist on posting the string do so while also posting their full name and address so that the MPAA can easily find them. OK, but Digg didn't have to go banning users* Digg didn't start banning users until they turned into a bunch of children and repeatedly submitted the same stories with the hex string, after noticing that such stories were being removed. The users that were banned fully deserved it for intentionally antagonizing the issue. I saw Kevin's blog post earlier tonight and I'm torn. The fact is, I agree with the spirit of it. The DMCA is a terrible law, and the MPAA is a corrupt organization. It's nice to have people who will stick up to them. That said, I really hope that Kevin didn't come to that decision based on the gang mentality of what I'm sure is only a fraction of Digg users. I like Kevin (as much as one can like someone who is a friendly internet show host and creator of cool things ), and I trust in his sincerity on this issue. I do not doubt that, when they initially made the decision to censor the string, it was a difficult choice. Kevin's old video podcast, The Broken, is just one example that he is not the kind of person who is a defender of the DMCA. But he's also an intelligent person, and he knows the consequences of being a high-profile target for violating the law. If the MPAA chooses to take serious action on this, Digg will* be shut down, and who knows what kind of damage Kevin may suffer personally. I can only hope he made this decision because it's something he chose to do and believes in, not because he felt backed into a corner by a vocal fraction of Digg users crippling his site. Finally, you'll note that I edited the string out of the starting post of this thread. TFP isn't high profile, and chances are there's no reason to worry about the string being posted here, but it's not my site and I'm not about to take that chance without first confirming with Halx, who is currently asleep. So, for now, the string will not be allowed on the site. If Halx decides that he doesn't care, then so be it. __________________ Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling Last edited by SecretMethod70; 05-02-2007 at 03:20 AM..

05-02-2007, 02:12 AM	#7 (permalink)
ubertuber spudly Location: Ellay	Great post SM70! I can't see any point in going to Digg anytime soon... It looks like there won't be anything interesting to read there for a bit. __________________ Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

05-02-2007, 03:57 AM	#8 (permalink)
pig pigglet pigglet Location: Locash	main page looks ok at present; i love these little mini controversies. who knows? if it helps to highlight another example of how the dmca laws are seriously fucked, maybe not a bad thing. hopefully it will just be a shitstorm memory for digg soon enough. __________________ You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

05-02-2007, 04:13 AM	#9 (permalink)
kylere Upright Location: 3rd Most Dangerous!	The heart of the matter is that Digg is a company, and they fear being sued for this, just as Google is being sued for all the nimrods that are using Youtube for content belonging to the MPAA/RIAA/MAFIA. The fact is that maybe one in hundred thousand digg users even comprehend what those hex values mean, and on in maybe 50k know what hex is(well there are always the charmed fans who will think it means spell of some sort lol) But regardless of that, those values are so google cached now, in MD5 format, as IP addresses, as the hex result to math problems etc. that there is no way to suppress the data, so now all the AOL err Myspace err Digg users (really all the same thing) need to take a pharmaceutical level qualude and chill. What I find really funny is the owner stepping up and posting the data himself after 3-plus hours of it being posted and removed, basically he told everyone the score to the Superbowl a week later and expected them to be impressed. Honestly, my memory is quirky, I am stuck with knowing that string forever now. My brain is in violation of the law, and I cannot even use Safe Harbor provisions because there is no way to remove the content...sigh.

05-02-2007, 04:26 AM	#10 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	It seems the inmates are running the assylum. Seems to have washed over for now, but the "geek riot" comment is awesome. __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]

05-02-2007, 05:34 AM	#12 (permalink)
kylere Upright Location: 3rd Most Dangerous!	SecretMethod, I am not sure that either of us is entirely right, and we may both be entirely wrong. But in the end, him posting it was silly :-) However, since Digg generates ad revenue from all the page refreshes, it makes complete sense. Last edited by kylere; 05-02-2007 at 05:49 AM.. Reason: I are a moron

05-02-2007, 05:54 AM	#13 (permalink)
MSD The sky calls to us ... Super Moderator Location: CT	News Flash: The average Digg user is an idiot.

05-02-2007, 10:40 AM	#16 (permalink)
skier Rawr! Location: Edmontania	As far as the whole "threatening sites with legal action for posting a string of hex numbers" goes i think it's fairly safe to say that to prevent further dissemination the MPAA is going to have to sue the entirety of the internets to try and stop its spread. And that would be such a ridiculous lawsuit that news agencies would pick it up and you better believe they will mention links that lead to the hex number. I hope that if Rose gets sued over this that he makes a call for legal support from it's users that so adamantly demanded their right to post whatever they want. __________________ "Asking a bomb squad if an old bomb is still "real" is not the best thing to do if you want to save it." - denim

05-02-2007, 10:52 AM	#17 (permalink)
ubertuber spudly Location: Ellay	Well, the MPAA probably wouldn't try to sue everyone - at least not at first. Even if it was a throw-away lawsuit, digg would have to pay lawyers to say so. Whatever the state of the law is, the MPAA can bleed money by causing you to refute their inaccurate claims. __________________ Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

05-02-2007, 02:56 PM	#18 (permalink)
Val_1 Addict Location: In a State of Denial	Digg's front page got screwed up for a few hours. This is a reason for avoiding the site? There were tons of interesting stories on Digg today. I don't blame the Digg owner for deleting the posts. It's his prerogative to. Getting sued is no fun. The users rebelled. I don't fault them; they are right that a company can't control a string of hex digits. It's possibly the dumbest security code I've seen outside of a grandmother's password. But, they were being a bit immature about the whole thing. But it was funny. MPAA does have to accept that the hex string is out in the wild. A mild annoyance. Even as the internet is concerned. __________________ I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day. -Frank Sinatra

05-06-2007, 04:23 PM	#19 (permalink)
rogerroger7 Upright	SM, I think you miss the point. People like posting at digg partially because of the freedom inherent and the atmosphere that is non-commercial. If shit like this is allowed it is just the beginning. Soon enough you won't be able to post anything about a company unless it is personally approved by them first. Who wants that? We have every right to leave the site if we want. About somethign awful, god i hate that place. The owner just wants to get rich. Fuck him.

05-06-2007, 05:03 PM	#21 (permalink)
1010011010 Psycho Location: Virginia Beach, VA	Digg received some funding from HD-DVD. So the reaction was not "Ah, Digg has taken down 0x09F911029D74E35BD84156C5635688C0 as a self-protective measure due to DCMA concerns" is was "Digg has taken down 0x09F911029D74E35BD84156C5635688C0 due to corporate censorship." If/when Digg gets the barratry smackdown, they can expect community support in return due to the choice they made to support the user. It's fine that you don't understand the issue. Try not to belittle the protesters while asserting your ignorance. __________________ *Simple Machines in Higher Dimensions*

05-06-2007, 05:26 PM	#24 (permalink)
Lasereth Knight of the Old Republic Location: Winston-Salem, NC	1. Kevin Rose was being smart by getting rid of the articles with the code in it. 2. Most digg users are linux/wii/ubuntu/doityourself/fighttheman/antiDRM fanboys who are foaming at the mouth to praise what they think is neat and completely flame anyone or anything who goes against it even if they have a legit discussion. 3. I quit going to Digg long before this happened because of the sheer amount of worthless topics that make it to teh front page, usually starting with "Cool new" and ending with "you've ever seen" and it being completely boring, extremely off topic, and even false in many cases. Some of the articles that are posted go totally against their topic yet they make it to the front page because they're dugg without anyone reading them. __________________ "A Darwinian attacks his theory, seeking to find flaws. An ID believer defends his theory, seeking to conceal flaws." -Roger Ebert

05-06-2007, 05:33 PM	#25 (permalink)
Dilbert1234567 Devils Cabana Boy Location: Central Coast CA	i'd love to run an experiment give a story a baity title ('digg getting shut down, digg now') and have the page link to 'this is just an experiment, if you read this, don't digg.' and see how fast it gets to 1000 diggs. __________________ Donate Blood! "Love is not finding the perfect person, but learning to see an imperfect person perfectly." -Sam Keen

05-06-2007, 05:52 PM	#26 (permalink)
Lasereth Knight of the Old Republic Location: Winston-Salem, NC	Ha ha ha ha oh man that would be great. One article said "New mechanical robotic house can repair itself from earthquakes" Go into the article...and the walls are made out of some slightly different type of material that can withstand small cracks (barely visible cracks). It doesn't actually repair them. The house isn't robotic or mechanical. Hell, it's not even revolutionary. Yet it got to Digg's front page because the title made it sound cool. I seriously hate that site because it's a who-can-make-the-best-sounding-title contest, not an "is this article worth reading" page like it's supposed to be. __________________ "A Darwinian attacks his theory, seeking to find flaws. An ID believer defends his theory, seeking to conceal flaws." -Roger Ebert

05-06-2007, 10:43 PM	#30 (permalink)
World's King Here Location: Denver City Denver	Boo-Hoo... You stole my digital lollipop... Shut the fuck up. It's the internet. It's run by loner computer geeks that have nothing better to do. This is the same group of people that will talk to you for six days straight about all the things where wrong with the LOTR movies and then go home and jerk off onto a Peter Jackson action figure. And don't worry... he has two more in still in the box. __________________ heavy is the head that wears the crown

05-08-2007, 01:31 PM	#36 (permalink)
1010011010 Psycho Location: Virginia Beach, VA	First off, along with sumitting a link to Digg, one provides their username Second, the comments to the articles each were accompanied by the username of the poster. __________________ *Simple Machines in Higher Dimensions*

05-08-2007, 02:18 PM	#37 (permalink)
analog Banned	I agree it was more like a riot... fanboys, scriptkiddies, and general idiot youngsters all chomping at the bit to stick it to the man while bucking against the system that says you can't disseminate an alphanumeric string. And regarding the "you can't copyright a hex string" nonsense- you sure as shit can. What do you think every form of digital media IS? Music, video, it's all just strings of numbers and letters- and you're all very familiar with just how copyrighted those are. The reality is, 99.2% of all the wastes of space who participated in this revolt would never in a million years be clever or smart enough to have found the hex code themselves, yet claim the royal "we" when they say "fuck the MPAA, we have the hex code now!" The oddest disconnect I see in this is the overwhelming suspension of logic these people undertake. I mean, I hate the MPAA as much as the next person, but hating the MPAA doesn't make me suddenly blind and stupid to the reality of the DMCA law- something which most of these anti-MPAA people are. Just because you hate their methods and everything they stand for doesn't suddenly nullify or blink out of existence the DMCA law that says it's illegal to share the codes. Even POT HEADS aren't dumb enough to think that disagreement with a law means you can break it all you want without consequence. Sheesh. Last edited by analog; 05-08-2007 at 08:59 PM..