katyg

i've just been reading in the paper that the boy who killed all those poor kids at virginia tech was told things like ' go back to china' when he spoke in class. i just find that unbelievable, i am not saying he was just in what he did, not at all, but what kind of society are we living in when kids growing up, kids that should be more tolerant, more open minded (supposedly) than their parents generation are still taunting this way? i'm sickened by all of it, the killings and the abuse. no one deserves that, an ex boyfriend of mind was regularly beaten at school for simply being the only chinese kid.

do we live in a more tolerant society or is it all a lie?
discuss...
x

Siege

we live in a less vocal society, not a more tolerant one.

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Willravel

I hope we live in a society where people say 'go back to China' and then get the tar kicked out of them by a few Chinese people after class.

debaser

I agree with will, except it would be even better if the kicking were applied by a bunch of South Koreans.

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Willravel

Good point. Still, it's gunny when it's done by the Chinese because it was equally culturally insensitive to them.

Edit: that's a Freudian slip that I can't bring myself to edit. Gunny....heh.

debaser

I am constantly annoyed by people who insist on using the wrong country of origin to describe orientals. Not everybody is Chinese (although we may be soon).

And just to clarify, I am also annoyed by people who think oriental is a derogatory term, it is not.


PS I got a chuckle out of that as well.

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Willravel

It wasn't derogatory back in the 60s and 70s, but it can be now. Asian is the politically correct term when using it as a noun. When used as a noun (i.e. There's an oriental in my class), it is disrespectful. When it's used as an adjective, I believe it's okay.

Lizra

I think we live in a more tolerant society....it's certainly not perfect though My (white) mother-in-law called black girls pickininnies (sp?) while my (white) dad called/s black people second class citizens....they are both in their mid 80's though. It takes time to wash brains.

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debaser

I call black people black, not African-American. I call orientals just that, unless I know specifically where they are from.

I don't cringe at all when someone refers to me as an occidental (not that that commonly happens).

You may have noticed that PC and I don't get along to well. I believe it to be worse in a way than censorship, for it is sophistry, and far more damaging.

We do not live in a more tolerant society, we just cover our intolerance with a honeyed tongue.

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Willravel

I'd love to end bigotry today. I'll settle for shutting up bigots, though. Baby steps.

Ourcrazymodern?

I consider myself one of many sub-types. My wife finds my use of THAT term offensive. Go figure.

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shesus

We live in a fucked up society which is why people get so disturbed, confused, and pissed off.

We live in a society that is sex obsessed, but refuses to acknowledge that young, unmarried people are having sex and/or are ashamed of their own sexual perversions and obsessions.

We live in a society where the area with the most churches generally has the most porn shops and bars.

We live in a society where everyone is scared to say anything for fear of running the risk of being racist or prejudice. People bottle up hate and anger and then forget why they are angry in the first place. People sit around and have discussions, but do nothing to solve the issues because what can one, two, or twenty people really do? We are a helpless society.

We live in a society where media is a circus and instead of trying to solve problem and report the news it tries to pull on heartstrings and twist stories. Of course, I'm not sure what the goal of the media is so maybe we should just accept this one and enjoy the animal segments and the water cooler gossip and forget that there are serious problems in the world.

I think that if people didn't hide in a bubble and bury their head in the sand everyone would go insane and begin massive shooting sprees.

This society is fucked up with a few realists around to attempt to keep everything in balance. I, mysellf, am becoming more jaded by the day. I've been questioning society and trying to make sense of it. All I've concluded so far is that I better make my own bubble and keep the horrible realities of the world out of sight/out of mind if I want to continue a happy existence. This is against everything I believe, but honestly I see no hope for improvement anytime soon.

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Baraka_Guru

"Oriental" is dated and normally reserved for Eurocentric references. Academic circles associate "Orientalism" with the European colonial attitude toward specific Asian nations. This is why it can be offensive in certain areas of the world.

This may be related to why "Eskimo" has been replaced with "Inuit" for many of the peoples who were labelled with the former term. "Eskimo" assumed a pejorative value over time. "Indian" vs. "Native" vs. "First Nation" is another example. So is "East Indian" vs. "Southeast Asian," "Negro" vs. "Black." There are many more examples, and they have varying degrees of offensiveness.

All of these changes in our language are examples of how we deal with racism. Language shifts to ensure that we apply appropriate references to groups that we address. This is not sugar-coating; language is powerful. They are not just words; they are meanings rich with signifiers more complex than many may realize.

[Note: I would argue that "Oriental" is nearly as dated and pejorative as "Negro." I wouldn't any sooner say "there is an Oriental in my class" than I would "there's a Negro in my class."]

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kevpdx

The 'go back to China' thing could have been because this guy was such a freak, not because he was asian. The kid wrote disturbingly violent stories, stalked girls, etc. People are going to use what they can to verbally attack someone that weird.

roachboy

wait: i am bewildered by no. 14.

what are you saying, kevpdx? that the use of racist categories is just dandy as a way for presumably inarticulate people to lash out and someone they do not like, someone "that weird," someone so "not like 'us'"?
uh...what do you think racist categories do in general?
how is your post not a de facto justification not only of the categories, but of the logic behind these categories?
unless you mean that the logic of racism is ok when you agree that individual or group x should be targetted in that way, using that kind of speech...but that's no better: how is this not simply a repetition of the logic that any racist would use? even the most vicious anti-semites that i have known, for example, make exceptions for the "good jews" that they know personally; even the most avowed racists i have encountered will react to being accused of racism by ticking of elements of a list of "good" individuals as a way of attempting to deny that they are racist.

another way: not all social deviance results in a murder-suicide. but this particular guy's pathologies were such that he did end up committing murder-suicide. how do you parse this? from no. 14 it seems that you must imagine there is some objective measure of relative "deviance" that authorizes you to in some cases endorse racist remarks (or their equivalent) in order to enforce consequences to the violation of exceeding the "limits" of "acceptable deviance"---but what is that standard, what are these limits and who decides on them?

this standard cannot possibly be based on something as stupid as taking the fact that cho snapped and did what he did as a general pattern and moving from there to backwrite it into any "deviant" pattern that you feel like....
but if you push at such logic as there is in no. 14, this is more or less where you'd land.

well, to my mind it would be a pretty fucked up result of this horrific massacre/suicide were "normal" folk--you know, regular people who live in a context of more-or-less continually manufactured fear---to decide to become militant against any behaviours that they see as "socially deviant" because there is some tiny probablility that Bad Things Will Happen...

but hey, maybe this will result in delightful spectator sport on the order of the christian persecution of witches, which worked so well: it gave "normal folk" an easy peasy way to isolate the "socially deviant" or marginal..once these folk were turned over the the Inquisition, it was a simple application of a tautological argument to concoct series of Bad Things that Might Happen as a function of that person's "deviance" or marginality (read intercourse with Natas)---once that was in place, then the "secular arm" could rush in to "save the day" by executing them, proactively stomping out "evil" that may or may not have existed even as potential in the first place.
that worked out really well.
we know this because nothing bad has happened since, what, 1720, when Victory was Declared and the persecution of witches was finally abandoned.
qed.

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World's King

Oriental is a type of rug. Not person.

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umpa

I was eating with my boss and one colleague yesterday when they got onto talking about comedians and the colleague began to describe a scene from an old-ish british comedy detailing a somewhat racist joke. His point was that whether or not it was politically correct that that there shouldn't be a problem with racist jokes in sitcoms. I have very strong feelings toward racism having grown up in a predominantly white area and being mixed race I have been subjected to enough persecution, therefore I suppose in some ways I am biased. But it really infuriates me that there are people that think it's not a big deal and if anything is something to laugh about. I didn't want to cause any unneccesary tension at lunch and just said nothing but part of me wanted to ask if he would feel the same way if he grew up in a place where he was a minority and people were mocking him on the TV.

katyg

This is exactly my point Umpa - it is a big deal. It shouldn't be something people are just gliding over in the coverage of the killings - racism is abuse, pure and simple - I'm not on that boy's side but I can't imagine how miserable he must have been. If somebody was taunting my accent, my looks everyday I don't know how I'd react - especially a huge majority of people around me, singling me out. He must have been very alienated, I don't care how 'weird' in personality people think you are they have no right EVER to use racial slurs. I pity everyone involved.

Lizra

Man....you put my thoughts into words!
And after about 80 years....you really can't take the crazyness any more, and you are happy to die.

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analog

Considering how mentally disturbed he was, and he literally was here on a student visa, I wouldn't think "go back to china" would have anything to do with him being anything other than a crazy loner.

Willravel

I think we can all agree that as far as comedic genius goes, that kid had about the ability of carrot top. And that's the real crime in America: unfunny people being tolerated.

If someone's not funny, don't laugh. You'll just be encouraging him or her to make more people cry.

debaser

Oriental - Originating from the East.

If you don't choose to use it that way, good for you. The world is short on individuality these days.

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Toaster126

This is how racism will be reduced. I think people naturally tend to segregate themselves and be racist, but the parents who have been trained by society to hide their racism will not pass it on to their children as strongly.

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Baraka_Guru

You should at least flesh it out appropriately. It deserves as much, and so do we:


oriental

• adjective of, from, or characteristic of the Far East.

• noun often offensive a person of Far Eastern descent.

— DERIVATIVES orientalism noun orientalist noun orientalize (also orientalise) verb orientally adverb.

— USAGE The term oriental is now regarded as old-fashioned and potentially offensive as a term denoting people from the Far East. In US English, Asian is the standard accepted term in modern use; in British English, where Asian tends to denote people from the Indian subcontinent, specific terms such as Chinese or Japanese are more likely to be used.

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World's King

Yeah... as in food and goods. Not people.

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debaser

Cool, when I start drawing my sense of morality from a dictionary that might come in handy. As I said, if I know the persons origin I refer to them by that, otherwise oriental is far more specific than Asian.

If I describe a person as Asian, am I refering to someone from Jordan, Russia, Korea or Indonesia? It's a useless moniker, and as such I don't use it.

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kevpdx

Do you disagree that this kid is a freak? Like I said, he was a stalker, wrote disgusting stories, and eventually killed 32 people. Mentally stable people don't do shit like that.

"People are going to use what they can to verbally attack someone that weird". That is not saying that racist comments are ok. It is saying that these people most likely attacked him because he was a freak, not because he was Asian. Don't twist my words into racism.

When some are pissed off enough, they will use insults regarding to race or other uncontrollable things, not because they hate that thing, but because they are attempting to use whatever they can against them.

abaya

No, really. I love it.

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Destrox

This is where I find this country rolling down hill with the speed ever increasing.

This over sensitivity needs to just stop. They're words, yeah words like oriental, Asian, Chinese, or worse like nigger, wop, rag head are all very derogatory.

But I honestly don't see why the massive media circus over this shit is happening, those who use them are just pointing them selves out to the rest of us that "Hey, look at me, I'm an ignorant tool."

I just don't get the need to make such a big deal out of it. There are simply much more important events in this world that needs to be taken care of first.
(Economy, War on Oil, Fossil Fuel replacements, Car Emissions, Global Warming, etc)

But to take a war-on-words? Give me a break.

Maybe I'm insensitive, but I'm not about to get pissed off for someone else's feeling like too many others do.

Racism is one of those things that will probably never go away, its human nature. We simply are wired to categorize people and things. Its how we work. Some just take it to the extremes, just like anything else in life. There are and always will be, extremists that stand out in the crowd.

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Baraka_Guru

If you want to be specific in your use of "Asian," consider the following; these terms are more modern than "the Orient":

• South Asia
• East Asia
• South-East Asia
• Asia and the Pacific
• the Pacific Rim
• the Pacific Basin

Why consider these? Well, that's because aside from "the Orient" being a Eurocentric term that has fallen out of disuse because of its pejorative connotations, it also causes "Oriental" to be more vague a term than "Asian." The Orient traditionally refers to the following areas:

• Persia
• Mesopotamia
• Asia Minor
• Egypt

Come the late 19th century, it widened to include:

• China
• Japan
• Korea
• and surrounding nations

This means the Orient refers to both modern-day Asia and the Middle East. "Oriental" is more vague than saying "Asian." If you truly want to avoid getting people's post-colonial backs up, you might want to shift your views on the word. If you don't know a person's specific origin in Asia, then I'd call them "Asian"--which I'd say is most appropriate. "Oriental" is worse than useless.

As a side note, the British no longer call Americans "colonists." You know, those unusual settler folk over in the New World; kind of strange and primitive, those "colonials." This is because the United States of America is now a nation of its own. Things changed. For the same reason, we can no longer see the value in the word "Orient" as applied to people currently living in Asia. Things have changed. The word should be reserved for references to history and the exotic.

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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Jetée

It never hurts to broaden our horizons when it comes to learning about our fellow people and their respective cultures.

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Willravel

You might want to consult the dictionary for semantics. If I were to misuse the word 'simply' (i.e. "He was simply raised", to mean that he was raised in a simple way), someone could correct me by saying, 'well in the dictionary, the definition of simply is....'. You're arguing against the definition of the word 'oriental'. All you need to do to understand the definition of a word is to look it up. My dictionary says it's derogatory when used to describe people. Everyone else agrees. You can continue using the word as you see fit, but understand that the rest of the world comprehends the word in a very different way than you, and as such they will be offended whether you intend it or not.

analog

I understand that you refuse to accept that language is fluid and, as such, the meanings and connotations of words can change. However, you should still probably at least *appear* open-minded to the possibility that some portion of your vernacular has become outmoded and is now a little insensitive/racist/stupid.

Believing that the meaning/usage of a word never changes connotation and that you are correct simply because it was correct at some point in history is *almost* as ignorant as intentionally using it as a slur.

Infinite_Loser

...Does it really matter what you call someone? Whatever happened to "Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me"? People today have too little self-worth...

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debaser

I see what you are saying, I'm just having trouble caring. Perhaps I am just stubborn or curmudgeonly. Perhaps it's sort of a litmus test as to whether or not the person in question is too soft to continue talking to. Whatever the case may be, I really don't see myself not using the word in the future. As I mentioned above, the alternatives are useless.

If I point to a crowd of people containing a Russian, an Arab, an Indian, and a Korean and tell anybody in the US about the oriental guy, they will know exactly who I am talking about.

Being of European descent, I have no problem whatsoever using eurocentric terms (as one poster above mentioned) in my everyday vocabulary.

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goddfather40

Actually, if you point to the same crowd of people in the US, and point out the Asian guy, they know exactly who you are talking about too. I'm American, but in general, at least in the English use of the word, we are not talking about someone from Paraguay or Costa Rica, but someone from the US. It's just how it works.

Use of oriental here in California, where there is a significant Chinese, Korean, Vietnamese presence, is very much frowned upon, and, if said in the presence of most Asians, will cause friction.

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Xell101

Every racial incident I have seen or know of from primary sources basically doesn't get past some jerk exploited inflated sensitivities for jerk reasons, and if it escalates to violence it's all about vanity and ego. Some jerk going about his jerkly business is nothing to get out of shape about until he directly interferes with your operation. I mean, if some guy were standing four feet away from me and was shouting all varieties of meanness it isn't logical to get angry, it's stupid to empower that chap more than he ever could by himself.

Then again I'm debilitatingly blase. :-|

Willravel

Ah, but our (I'm also of European descent) ancestors haven't been subjugated for a long, long time. Asians are still treated like crap by many people (just as blacks are treated like crap, etc.). My German ancestors haven't had it hard since the Romans were invading Northern Europe. My Irish ancestors probably had it pretty crappy from the Brits, but they immigrated centuries ago. As a white male, I really can't tell you what it's like to be subjugated. Yes, I'm an atheist, but it's really not that bad.

When you suggest that people are being soft, you're playing down the fact that there still is very serious racism in our society. If you don't know what I'm talking about, name 3 movies in the past 10 years that have featured Asians that didn't use martial arts. Name one show on TV where the main character is Asian. Name an Asian American politician.

ubertuber

http://inouye.senate.gov/biography.html
Didn't he also give the Democrat response to the State of the Union a couple of years back?

For a bonus, Gary Locke was elected governor of Washington state in 1996 and enjoyed an approval rating of 70% plus. Norman Mineta is our Secretary for Transportation. Robert Matsui and Doris Matsui are/were members of the House (had to look that one up)

Movies: Anna and the King, Brokeback Mountain (directed by Ang Lee), Lucky Number Slevin, Memoirs of a Geisha (borderline), Harold & Kumar

TV: Lost (Sun and Jin), Ally McBeal, ER

Other: Yo-Yo Ma, Connie Chung, Kristy Yamaguchi, Yao Ming, Michelle Kwan, Eric Shinseki, Hidecki Matsui (go Yankees!), Margret Cho

How'd I do? My point is just that your point is hyperbole.

I'm not going to bother adding any more.

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Willravel

I think my point still stands.