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04-21-2007, 09:23 AM | #326 (permalink) |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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Do you think they should have assault weapons training in schools, too?
I keep wondering, why in god's name you think you need all these horrible things? What possible reasonable use could anyone but a military officer in the field need with an assault weapon? |
04-21-2007, 09:30 AM | #327 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Indiana
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It's time for the president to hand over his nobel peace prize. |
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04-21-2007, 09:50 AM | #329 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
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04-21-2007, 09:55 AM | #330 (permalink) | ||
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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Or would you like to tell me that the M16 and AK47 are hunting rifles? |
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04-21-2007, 09:55 AM | #331 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Indiana
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Most Civilians cannot get fully automatic weapons since the 30's I believe (if that's what you think of by Assault Rifle). All AK-47 or M16 type guns you get in America are NOT fully automatic. Therefore it does perform similarly to a semi-automatic hunting rifle. It's the LOOK that was banned, not what the rifles did. Here is an excellent video that shows what I'm talking about. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysf8x477c30
__________________
It's time for the president to hand over his nobel peace prize. |
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04-21-2007, 09:58 AM | #332 (permalink) |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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Oh snap, that guy's from San Jose! Odd coincidence.
Okay, the video is very informative. I happen to know the difference between a semi and full auto gun, but I was unaware that newsmedia mislabels guns. I'll have to keep an eye out for that. Going back for a moment, the assault rifle has some key differences from a hunting weapon: -Selective fire -Use of the magazine It's important, in my mind, to point out these differences as they change the functionality of the weapon considerably. Hunting rifles, as I understand them, do not use burst fire. Also, hunting rifles can only keep a small amount of ammunition in the weapon. This means that you have like x number of shots to hit the deer (or the person, if you're a violent criminal). A magazine carries a substantially larger number of bullets that can be fired without reloading. Last edited by Willravel; 04-21-2007 at 10:08 AM.. |
04-21-2007, 10:22 AM | #333 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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Quote:
__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
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04-21-2007, 10:47 AM | #335 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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Also, not sure why this went to hunting because hunting is not the subject of the right to keep and bear arms.
__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
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04-21-2007, 10:54 AM | #336 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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04-21-2007, 02:20 PM | #339 (permalink) | |
Sir, I have a plan...
Location: 38S NC20943324
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A select fire weapon is known as a Class 3 weapon or a machine gun (technically not correct). Anyone can buy once once they pay a $200 tax stamp and complete a very thorough background check.
__________________
Fortunato became immured to the sound of the trowel after a while.
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04-21-2007, 02:25 PM | #341 (permalink) | ||
Sir, I have a plan...
Location: 38S NC20943324
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Not at all, they are a completely separate entity under the law and were not effected at all under the AWB.
__________________
Fortunato became immured to the sound of the trowel after a while.
Last edited by debaser; 04-21-2007 at 02:27 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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04-21-2007, 03:36 PM | #342 (permalink) |
spudly
Location: Ellay
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Will - if this helps, there are some GREAT threads here with all of this info. Check in the politics forum with last posts in the fall of 2004. If I remember correctly, Lebell and Seretogis did a great job explaining why both gun control advocates AND proponents should regard the AWB as junk legislation. I think it was one of the few times that several people changed their opinions on an issue publicly.
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Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam |
04-23-2007, 05:17 AM | #343 (permalink) | |
Addict
Location: Spring, Texas
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Just because in your 25 years YOU have not needed a firearm, does NOT mean that nobody else has had the need. Consider yourself fortunate. While I am appaled that you were shot once before(I will say thank GOD that you are ok afterward) Not everyone that has been shot is as fortunate as you. I have a very good friend of mine that is alive today because of the fact that I carry, and no, I have absolutely no doubt that she would be dead if I hadn't intervened. You asked before If I had ever shot a criminal, and my answer was yes. Here is the situation. I had a good friend of mine who always seemd to date the wrong guys. One of those ladies you see in the movies always picking the guys who beat her up all the time. She was dating this guy who was always mean to her, but she kept telling me that it was "her fault" and whenever I called the cops after hearing them fighting, she would NEVER press charges.(needless to say he didn't like me much...I didn't care if he did) One Friday night, she had finally had enough, and told me that she was going to move out. He was out of town, and we were packing her things so she could move. Well he came home, and at the time I was in my apartment getting more boxes. I heard the yelling, and immediately went over to see what was going on, and he was standing over her with a pistol, screaming at her. He saw me, and while he was starting to point his gun toward me, I drew, and fired. 3 shots, center mass. The police of course arrived, I was arrested (don't think that if you use your firearm, even legally, that you WONT get arrested) and arraigned on Monday morning. When I got out, the charges were already dropped against me. I got back home, and my friend was obviously distressed, but hugged me and thanked me. We found out a few days later that her "boyfriend" had rope, a roll of plastic construction plastic, a shovel, and an axe in the trunk of his car. So yes, I FULLY believe in the right to own and bear arms. If it weren't for my quick thinking and TRAINING THAT I RECEIVED IN SCHOOL(back then Firearm safety was IN school, and they trained you in safe operation and safety of MANY firearms) then things may have gone differently. Am I saddened that I had to kill someone? YES...I relive the fact that I killed someone....another human being. But I can also feel better knowing that it was done to save another person's life. Someone who was a dear friend. I now step off my soapbox...
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"It is not that I have failed, but that I have found 10,000 ways that it DOESN'T work!" --Thomas Edison |
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04-23-2007, 12:33 PM | #345 (permalink) |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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Deltona, that's really, really sad. I'm very glad they you were there to rescue your friend from that sick individual. I'm also very sorry that you needed to kill him and I recognize that it's not my place to say whether it was necessary or not mainly because I wasn't there. The only thing I'm left wondering, and hope you don't find this offensive, is was it necessary to fire center mass? I'm not familiar with firearms, but I'm handy with a bow and arrow and I would be confident to hit someone in, say, the shoulder from 25 feet off. It's a difficult question to ask because it's clear that your life and the life of your friend were in immediate danger, so please don't misunderstand: I think you're a hero for being brave enough to make a serious decision to save your friend. As someone who would die in order to avoid killing another human being, I'm just trying to understand.
To be clear, I can't say with certainty what I'd do in a similar situation. If a friend or family member of mine were in a dire and life threatening situation, it's possible that something in me would kick in and I could take a life. Speaking outside of that situation, though, I'd like to think that I would find all reasonable methods of saving my friend that avoided taking a life. As an atheist, I find life to be especially precious because I know I won't have an afterlife to atone or to see those who have died again. |
04-23-2007, 12:57 PM | #346 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Indiana
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I just shot a handgun for the 2nd time this weekend, needless to say it was a very humbling experience. The short barrel of a handgun makes it very hard to aim well compared to a rifle. Plus real targets don't stand still so imo it would take some real skill to purposely hit a moving person's shoulder at 25 ft.
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It's time for the president to hand over his nobel peace prize. |
04-23-2007, 01:15 PM | #347 (permalink) |
Sir, I have a plan...
Location: 38S NC20943324
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will
I hope I don't come off cold blooded saying this, but every time you shoot a firearm at a person you should aim center mass. This is for several reasons: 1. It is much easier to hit. Gunfights are high stress situations, and your shot placement rarely achieves parity with what you can do on a target range. 2. If you are shooting at a person, you have decided to use deadly force. The fact that you are shooting a gun implies that you need to incapacitate the target as quickly as possible, the most reliable way to accomplish this is center mass shots to the torso (the head is too hard to hit in a fluid situation). 3. Legaly you are much more justified in shooting a person in the chest, regardless if you kill him or not, than you are trying to "shoot the gun out of his hand", or shoot him in the leg. Once you discharge your weapon you have applied dealy force, whether you hit him or not. That is the standard you will be judged on. The real trick is you never want to fire a gun in this situation, period. But once a person has forced you to the point where there is no other option you go with training and neccessity. Deltona Couple, my condolences and appreciation for your story.
__________________
Fortunato became immured to the sound of the trowel after a while.
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04-23-2007, 05:12 PM | #349 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Indiana
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Quote:
__________________
It's time for the president to hand over his nobel peace prize. |
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04-23-2007, 05:28 PM | #350 (permalink) | |
Crazy
Location: Shoreline, WA, USA
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Jonathan
__________________
"We are sure to be losers when we quarrel with ourselves. It is a civil war, and in all such contentions, triumphs are defeats." Mr Colton ================================== |
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04-23-2007, 05:34 PM | #351 (permalink) |
pigglet pigglet
Location: Locash
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it's kind of funny, in a way, to read about the huge debate about gun ownership in a general sense from my perspective. i just grew up with them. they were tools, and remain so. not great savers of liberty, not evil doers of mischief. i grew up popping off bottle tops with .22's, firing .45's, shotguns, rifles; i have no particular fascination with guns, but i'd rather have them around than not. it seems like every other discussion; quickly devolving into the die hard ends of the spectrum. i don't know if i speak for the middle or not; regardless of the particular interpretation you have of the 2nd amendment, i think we should be able to agree that different people seem to have different interpretations of the scope and intent of the amendment. we could go around about the 'correctness' of the individual interpretations til the cows come home without actually resolving the issue. i kind of like it the way it more or less is now, in terms of the legal standpoint. my state isn't a concealed carry state, as far as i know; but if someone broke into my house or my parents' house; they'd probably be pretty severely fucked. i am pretty sure you can get a license to carry a piece around; but it takes some effort and justification to do so. furthermore, there are places - like schools and certain private businesses, where i believe it is illegal to carry a weapon. i rather like it that way.
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You don't love me, you just love my piggy style |
04-24-2007, 12:06 AM | #352 (permalink) | |
Crazy
Location: Shoreline, WA, USA
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http://www.justfacts.com/gun_control.htm Crime and mortality statistics are often used in the gun control debate. The number of homicides committed annually with a firearm by persons in the 14- to 24-year-old age group increased by 173% from 1985 to 1993, and then decreased by 47% from 1993 to 1999. http://www.policyalmanac.org/crime/guns.shtml Do you dispute any of this evidence ? Jonathan
__________________
"We are sure to be losers when we quarrel with ourselves. It is a civil war, and in all such contentions, triumphs are defeats." Mr Colton ================================== |
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04-24-2007, 04:54 AM | #353 (permalink) |
Addict
Location: Spring, Texas
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Will, to answer your question, the majority of which was touched correctly by Debaser, if you choose to fire a weapon you are using deadly force, and as such, you must be prepared for the result. Accuracy is a big issue. If you aim center mass, then any error in trigger pull, nervous twitch, etc, it still gives you the best chance of hitting your intended target. He was raising his gun in my direction at the time, and in order to prevent him from shooting ME, I had to make the determination that he was an iminent threat. Because of this I felt that it was required to make sure he wouldn't have a chance to fire back. I HAT the fact that it happened, and it is something that I have to live with for the rest of my life. One thing to consider is that I have been raised around firearms all my liffe, and spent 8 years in the Marines, so I had EXTENSIVE training in firearms, and the use of such. It is my opinion that if I were NOT as well trained as I was, I might have flinched, gotten too scared, or worse, and there would have been more than one person who died that day. This is why it is MY belief that everyone should atleast UNDERSTAND the correct use and safety of a firearm. I am not saying it should necesarrily be a required course, but atleast be AVAILABLE in our schools for those who choose to learn. NOTHING in this world is worse in the case of firearms than someone who thinks he knows EVERYTHING about weapons. This makes them twice as dangerous. Yes it is unfortunate that our country has such a higher percentage of firearm deaths. But look again at the statistics. It is hard to make a comparison with such different cultures and populations. Very few countries have the population that we have, or the crime rates that we have. We have been breeding our own problems, and I truly don't see us being able to come to a quick resolution to what is going on. As I said, I would be more than willing to give up every gun I own, if I could be guaranteed the same were done in the entire country. But realistically it will never happen in my lifetime.Think back to prohibition. If we outlawed firearms, then the criminals would import them illegally, and then we would be in more danger as a populace. I am not saying, as was implied of me before, that we shouldn't try. I am saying that we need to make small steps, and gradual EDUCATED steps to help reduce the crimes by firearms. Stronger regulations, stricter requrements for ownership, stiffer crimes for criminals. I like one of the laws in Florida. It is called 10-20-life. If you brandish a weapon while commiting a crime, automatic 10 years, if the firearm is discharged, automatic 20 years, and if you shoot or kill someone, automatic life. It HAS reduced the number of gun commited crimes in Florida. Also, I am not sure where the statistic is, but the it has been shown that the number of person-on-person crimes since the inception of the concealed handgun permit was enacted in Florida has gone down, AND we are showing a decline in other crimes as well. Orlando unfortunately is our problem spot, with crimes on the increase, but hey, can't be perfect...and I don't want anyone thinking I am being biased here...lol. I certainly applaud you Will, for being the way you are....we should have more of you out there. I personally like the check and ballance you give us on this thread, and in the country.
__________________
"It is not that I have failed, but that I have found 10,000 ways that it DOESN'T work!" --Thomas Edison |
04-24-2007, 06:36 AM | #354 (permalink) | ||
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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FBI Uniform Crime Reports for 1992 and 1997 Violent crime started falling in 1991, three years before passage of the Brady law. The Brady law did not apply in 18 states, yet violent crime in those states fell just as quickly. FBI Uniform Crime Statistics for 1990s and the U.S. Justice Department Crime Victimization Survey Gun possession by criminals has risen in the Brady years – 18% of state prisoners (was 16% before Brady) and 15% for federal prisoners (was 12% before Brady) are caught with firearms. Bureau of Justice Statistics, “Firearm Use by Offenders”, November 2001 Quote:
Anyone can play with numbers to get the desired result they want.
__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
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04-24-2007, 03:14 PM | #356 (permalink) |
Crazy
Location: Florida
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Ok, this is some scary shit. I just received an email from my university (University of South Florida) which says they found a 47 year-old man sleeping in his car today at 12:00-1:00, with a loaded .38 caliber handgun on the seat next to him, and a search of his car resulted in finding a knife and a shotgun. Scary thing is, I was at school all day today. Could this VA scenario become commonplace? If there's another university shooting anywhere in the US any time soon, you can bet gun control is going to change big-time. If it happens once, it's a fluke, but if it happens twice within a couple of weeks, what is it? Shenanigans?
I'm glad this situation didn't escalate any further, but I wonder what would've happened if it had. I'm still debating with myself about what I would do if given the opportunity to carry a weapon into campus. I mean, sure, I'd feel a whole lot safer, but in the back of my mind there would always be that feeling that someone around me is also armed. On the other hand, if it were allowed, how many student do you think would actually go through the trouble to get the gun, and be allowed to bring it to school (you'd probably have to fill out loads of paperwork with the university). I mean, how many people around you when you walk down the street have a concealed weapon permit? I'd assume not many. Isn't it reasonable to assume the same ratio of students would bring one to school (i.e, not many)? |
04-24-2007, 06:56 PM | #358 (permalink) | ||
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
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04-24-2007, 09:04 PM | #359 (permalink) | |
Crazy
Location: Florida
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2. Exactly. Assuming 14M adult Floridians, if ,say, 500K own guns, that's 3.6% of the adult population. Assuming it becomes legal to bring firearms to campus, and this same percentage finds itself within my university (though unlikely), where, at any given moment, there are ~5K students and faculty present, that's 180 armed peoples. I don't know about you, but I feel O.K. with that number, considering the size of our campus. And just like all the gun advocates here, I assume if you go through the trouble of buying a gun and registering for a CCW, then you're responsible and also spend time at the range practicing, in which case, I trust that you're responsible with a gun, so I don't expect you to whip it out when a cashier overcharges you accidentally, for example. |
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04-24-2007, 10:53 PM | #360 (permalink) | ||
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
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