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04-19-2007, 06:58 PM | #281 (permalink) | |
warrior bodhisattva
Super Moderator
Location: East-central Canada
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Gun Deaths - International Comparisons Gun deaths per 100,000 population (for the year indicated): Homicide/Suicide/Unintentional USA 4.08 (1999)/6.08 (1999)/0.42 (1999) Canada 0.54 (1999)/2.65 (1997)/0.15 (1997) Switzerland 0.50 (1999)/5.78 (1998)/- Scotland 0.12 (1999)/0.27 (1999)/- England/Wales 0.12 (1999/00)/0.22 (1999)/0.01 (1999) Japan 0.04* (1998)/0.04 (1995)/<0.01 (1997) * Homicide & attempted homicide by handgun Data collected by Philip Alpers, Harvard Injury Control Research Center, and HELP Network Arguments for loosening gun control so everyone has the capacity to return fire?! The Wild West was over with nearly 120 years ago.
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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot |
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04-19-2007, 07:18 PM | #283 (permalink) | |
warrior bodhisattva
Super Moderator
Location: East-central Canada
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Quote:
__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot |
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04-19-2007, 08:01 PM | #286 (permalink) | |
warrior bodhisattva
Super Moderator
Location: East-central Canada
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Quote:
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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot |
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04-20-2007, 01:15 AM | #288 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: South Carolina
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I love looney toons....
not so much in favor of guns, but i also have to question...just when did these country enact their gun control laws/etc and how many were publicly available at the time. I'm no gun lover by any means, but i can easily see how difficult it would be for the gov't to take alllllll of the guns that are currently privately owned out of circulation. they can reasonably control the supply of new guns, but the sheer number of gun-owners right now would make it almost feasibly impossible to revoke. as it stands right now, i can hope and hope to enact some changes that may help our grandkids, but for my lifetime, i don't see much of a change coming in this area..for better or worse
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Live. Chris |
04-20-2007, 03:44 AM | #289 (permalink) | |
spudly
Location: Ellay
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A couple of points about the data that no one has mentioned yet:
1) In the U.S. half again as many people commit or attempt suicide by gun as commit or attempt homicide. Put another way, you are more likely to kill yourself with a gun than you are to get killed by someone else. Of course, in Canada you are 5 times as likely, and in Switzerland 10 times as likely. Yes, I realize that this is only the most primitive sort of reading, but the numbers really jumped out at me as something I didn't expect. 2) Switzerland's numbers are very interesting (and Canada's as well, but less extreme) in that their rate of suicide by gun is nearly as high as ours while their rate of homicide is 1/8 of ours. That says something about culture vs. access to firearms. 3) I hate to be that guy, and I'm not saying this changes anything, but the most recent statistic shown is 7-8 years old. Just saying so no one else has to... I'm sure that (in the U.S. at least) a more detailed breakout would be even more illuminating. I'd be willing to bet that rural vs. urban, geographic region, age, and economic strata would produce some very unbalanced numbers. I'd be curious to see how those things work out, just as a point of interest. Quote:
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Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam Last edited by ubertuber; 04-20-2007 at 03:47 AM.. |
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04-20-2007, 04:07 AM | #290 (permalink) | |
Sir, I have a plan...
Location: 38S NC20943324
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You're welcome. I've done too many, with another looming. You are correct regarding violence being commited with handguns, very rarely are long guns used.
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Fortunato became immured to the sound of the trowel after a while.
Last edited by debaser; 04-20-2007 at 04:28 AM.. |
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04-20-2007, 09:06 AM | #292 (permalink) |
Asshole
Administrator
Location: Chicago
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In addition to the 3 items that Ubertuber pointed out, I'd like to add that the "unintentional" number is nearly triple the next largest one. Not only do we kill people (ourselves or others) intentionally at a much higher rate than all others on this list, but we do it unintentionally at the roughly the same rate.
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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo |
04-20-2007, 09:37 AM | #294 (permalink) | |
Asshole
Administrator
Location: Chicago
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And you don't see any potential problems with that?
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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo |
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04-20-2007, 11:29 AM | #295 (permalink) | |
Addict
Location: Spring, Texas
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"It is not that I have failed, but that I have found 10,000 ways that it DOESN'T work!" --Thomas Edison |
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04-20-2007, 11:45 AM | #296 (permalink) | |
Asshole
Administrator
Location: Chicago
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Nice idea, but I don't think it's actually workable if it were even politically possible.
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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo |
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04-20-2007, 12:05 PM | #297 (permalink) |
Lover - Protector - Teacher
Location: Seattle, WA
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You can demonstrate on a gun without bullets.
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"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel |
04-20-2007, 12:31 PM | #299 (permalink) | |
Asshole
Administrator
Location: Chicago
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Sorry, this is just a bad idea.
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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo |
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04-20-2007, 01:16 PM | #300 (permalink) |
Mistress of Mayhem
Location: Canton, Ohio
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Guns only do what the person holding them tells them to do. I am fond of saying guns dont kill people, husbands that come home early do. What happened to the students in Virginia was wrong. No gun control law in the world will stop it. People can kill with darn near anything. Special kool-aid served at lunch can kill too.
Could the officials have prevented the second happening? I sincerely doubt it. They knew that the first happening had occured but how were they to know where the gunman was? Could they have cancelled classes? Yes. What would have stopped the guy from waiting around for them to vacate the buildings and picking them off as they fled? It is easy to point fingers and say what should have been done. What would we have done had we been the ones trying to figure this all out at the time that it happened? The hardest thing to do is accept that it has happened. Unfortunately that is what we have to do at this point. There is no bringing them back. If they outlaw guns, perhaps the next person will kill the masses with a sword or a box cutter. Perhaps light a shipment of fertilizer with a bomb in it. Strap themselves up with a home made bomb and detonate it in a building full of children. Where there is a will there is a way. I am not saying that it is right, I am saying that is the way of things. Feel free to toss me under the bus now.
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If only closed minds came with closed mouths. Minds are like parachutes, they function best when open. It`s Easier to Change a Condom Than a Diaper Yes, the rumors are true... I actually AM a Witch. |
04-20-2007, 03:52 PM | #302 (permalink) |
Sir, I have a plan...
Location: 38S NC20943324
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Look people, they make training guns that cannot fire bullets. But this is a moot point. I am refering to general firearms safety, not a class on how to fire guns.
If you are interested in firearms you can pursue the above knowlege, but EVERYBODY in the United States should know the proper way to act around firearms, because EVERYBODY in the United States is around them every day, whether they know it or not. Just teach and reinforce the four basic rules of firearms safety as part of health class. You could use red guns, cardboard cut outs, or even just imagination. It is pathetic that in a country full of firearms, people are so ignorant about them...
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Fortunato became immured to the sound of the trowel after a while.
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04-20-2007, 04:08 PM | #303 (permalink) | ||||
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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04-20-2007, 04:44 PM | #304 (permalink) | ||||
Sir, I have a plan...
Location: 38S NC20943324
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How many bombs or swords are you around daily? *cough*strawman*cough* And how many people accidently sew themselves to death each year? I googled it, but I couldn't find any hard statistics. In fact lets just go with your idea. We can shitcan sex-education, most high-school sciences, drivers-ed and whole slew of other "common sense" topics. Then we can spend the money we saved on education on important things like rainbows, sandals, and pot. Quote:
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Fortunato became immured to the sound of the trowel after a while.
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04-20-2007, 05:01 PM | #305 (permalink) | ||||||
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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*Note: Willravel is responding to this while doing homework for a Masters program*
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Maybe the real question should be, why, in my 23 years on this Earth, have I never had to use a gun? I don't even think I've ever been offered the opportunity. I'll tell you I've never actively seeked to learn about or aquire a gun, but really...you're suggesting mandatory gun training for everyone. For me it would be as useless as spelling. Quote:
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04-20-2007, 05:23 PM | #306 (permalink) | ||||||||
Sir, I have a plan...
Location: 38S NC20943324
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Be careful you don't reap what you sew (sic[see below]). Quote:
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Fortunato became immured to the sound of the trowel after a while.
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04-20-2007, 05:38 PM | #307 (permalink) | |||||
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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04-20-2007, 05:55 PM | #308 (permalink) | |||||
Sir, I have a plan...
Location: 38S NC20943324
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Look, you yourself have argued that allowing the public to own firearms is dangerous. I have proposed a way to make it less dangerous. I will attempt to research the hard numbers, but would you concede that if people who have had a gun safety course are substantially less likely to be shot, then it is in the public interest to provide all people with that course? Quote:
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Fortunato became immured to the sound of the trowel after a while.
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04-20-2007, 05:59 PM | #309 (permalink) | |
Huggles, sir?
Location: Seattle
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seretogis - sieg heil perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames |
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04-20-2007, 06:13 PM | #310 (permalink) | |||||||
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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04-20-2007, 06:53 PM | #311 (permalink) | ||||
Sir, I have a plan...
Location: 38S NC20943324
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Fortunato became immured to the sound of the trowel after a while.
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04-20-2007, 07:04 PM | #312 (permalink) | ||||
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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04-20-2007, 07:33 PM | #313 (permalink) | |||
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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Originally Posted by debaser
I thought you had been shot? That seems to me to be the quintessential opportunity to use a gun. Quote:
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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
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04-20-2007, 07:42 PM | #314 (permalink) |
Warrior Smith
Location: missouri
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I have never been shot- I have had family members brutally murdered, and my wife's life threatened- I will take my guns over hopefull thoughts about the goodness of mankind any day. my wife is 5'2" - she has no chance in hell against a 6'2" assailant with a bat in his hand- with her gun however, she can defend herself quite handily... I do not fear being shot in daily life, I do fear having the means to defend myself against someone bigger and stronger taken away.........
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Thought the harder, Heart the bolder, Mood the more as our might lessens |
04-20-2007, 08:13 PM | #315 (permalink) | ||||
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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04-20-2007, 08:23 PM | #316 (permalink) | |||
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
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04-20-2007, 08:33 PM | #317 (permalink) |
Walking is Still Honest
Location: Seattle, WA
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You know, I can understand calling for a few extra hoops for gun owners to jump through before they can bring their concealed weapons to school/college/ect., but otherwise, I'm really not clear on how it's so insane. Even with the numerous explanations from roachboy - "that's a batshit idea" and the equally illuminating "not worth taking seriously" - it really doesn't sound all that crazy to me to let sufficiently competent students, teachers, and staff carry handguns to school. What would-be criminal intent on murder is going to wait for the existence of those hoops anyway?
'Sufficiently competent' are key words here, to be sure, and they leave a lot of room for debate. But I think it's a hugely unwarranted cynicism that would apply those words only to a law enforcement officer and not to any civilian.
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I wonder if we're stuck in Rome. |
04-20-2007, 08:39 PM | #318 (permalink) | ||||
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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Also, the founding fathers bit is just further rhetoric. I'll ask you again: present me with evidence that the founding fathers wanted mandatory gun classes in schools. Quote:
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04-20-2007, 08:50 PM | #319 (permalink) |
Crazy
Location: Music City burbs
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I remember back in late 1982/early 1983 - at my school (Western Kentucky University) we had a guest lecturer. He was G. Gordon Liddy, of Watergate fame, and now currently a right wing radio personality. I went to his lecture, and was forever changed in how I viewed the world.
Mr. Liddy opened his lecture by speaking of a scenario in which an elderly woman in a city would go and pick up her social security check at the post office and would then make her way back to her apartment. As she made her way home, she was followed by thugs who were intent on taking her check from her. As she rounded the corner to get to her apartment, the thugs came forward and made their presence known, and demanded of her that check. Two scenarios followed, Mr. Liddy described. In one scenario, the little old lady gave over her check, thereby giving up her only means of survival for the next month. The other scenario, was more appealing. Granny pulled out a 44 magnum and told the asswhole thugs to get the hell away, and if they didn't Granny would shoot their ass. And Granny would keep her check and would be able to pay her bills and buy groceries for another month. Which scenario did we want to envision for the US, Mr. Liddy asked us. It was then that I began to be on Granny's side, and on the side of the second amendment of the constitution. It is absolutely terrible that this young man killed so many at VT, and with legal handguns. My concern is not with the second amendment, it is with the judgement of authorities who allowed him to continue to be at school when he was so obviously mentally ill. He had been considered "dangerous", by psycological counselors, and why he was allowed to continue to be enrolled at this school is a huge question to me. Handguns are used to save lives everyday. MY sister's life was saved by a gun that her husband pulled in order to save her life. Our city has little crime, and I'll be willing to bet it's because there are a proliferation of handguns in the possession of law abiding citizens, like Granny. I do not believe in assault weapons - they should be banned. There is no value for them other than killing humans. However, assault weapons were not used at VT - normal handguns were. And those will always remain legal.
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(none yet, still thinkin') |
04-20-2007, 08:51 PM | #320 (permalink) |
Warrior Smith
Location: missouri
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Yes to both- She chose and bought a gun before she met me - with regard to pepper spray and tasers, I sell them in my store- Both weapons have severe limitations- especially the taser- Keep in mind that they work somewhat, and that I closely associate with several law enforcement professionals that have used both on violent subjects- Pepper spray is for when you have the ability to run away from an assailant, and It WILL NOT work like most people think it will- It is better than nothing, and a usefull tool, but I will not stake my life on it, and it is not good for a break in or home invasion situation- it works best to blind and diminish the fighting ability of a subject while several officers are helping to bear him to the ground and cuff him.... The taser works fairly well, and can incapacitate a subject, but you have ONE SHOT- and that one shot has a 15 foot range... that can be made to work indoors, but it is too iffy for my tastes. also, a heavy, stadium style coat can and will stop the probes on a taser from getting a good contact- causing the weapon to do nothing..... the taser has a contact on the gun, but this only works when applied directly to someone ( I know, we tested one in the store on ME ) and that means closing to hand to hand range and holding the weapon to a struggling assailant.... Tasers have transformed police work and give officers another less lethal option, but bear in mind that police believe in overwhelming force tactics, and there will almost always be SEVERAL of them there when someone is tased, to help control the subject afterwards..... Finally, note that tasers have a limited battery, and WILL NOT imobilize a subject for even as long as it would take for the most optimistic police response to arrive.... In closing it should be remembered that cops use pepper spray and tasers as part of a force continium- they always have a gun handy and are taught to ALWAYS use it if their life is threatened... understand, I carry pepper spray regularly, and if someone with a knife tried to mug me in an alley I would gladly spray them and run away- but if someone kicks in my door, I want the ability to defend myself, with something that will work with permanent certainty......and while I love my sword collection, firearms are simply the best option out there to keep my family safe........
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Thought the harder, Heart the bolder, Mood the more as our might lessens Last edited by Fire; 04-20-2007 at 08:54 PM.. |
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