VA Tech shooting and politics (THIS IS THE THREAD FOR TALK OF "gun control", ETC)

[smooth]

Originally Posted by archetypal fool

1. Well, since they arrested him and made a huge deal about it, I'd assume he broke some law. He was parked inside the school, and it's illegal to posses a gun(s) within the school. Besides, I don't know about you, and correct me if I'm wrong, but the average gun owner doesn't take his gun(s), drive to a local university, park inside, put them in plain sight (e.i, on the passenger seat), loaded and ready to fire, and then go to sleep. I don't see any possible chain of events which would account for this odd behavior, so forgive me for being troubled by this.

2. Exactly. Assuming 14M adult Floridians, if ,say, 500K own guns, that's 3.6% of the adult population. Assuming it becomes legal to bring firearms to campus, and this same percentage finds itself within my university (though unlikely), where, at any given moment, there are ~5K students and faculty present, that's 180 armed peoples. I don't know about you, but I feel O.K. with that number, considering the size of our campus. And just like all the gun advocates here, I assume if you go through the trouble of buying a gun and registering for a CCW, then you're responsible and also spend time at the range practicing, in which case, I trust that you're responsible with a gun, so I don't expect you to whip it out when a cashier overcharges you accidentally, for example.

to the first point, I don't know, but it would surprise me if texas and florida had the same carry laws. so what is legal in dk's state isn't likely relevant to what happens in yours.

secondly, it isn't very reasonable to draw a direct correlation between what happens in the general population of florida and your university. selection bias will have an affect, for one thing. it's conceivable that every person who can and wants to carry in the general population is. it's not a random distribution, so we can't extrapolate from that what might happen on campus. my suspicion is very few people would choose to carry on campus. You could start a survey, that would be interesting. I bet you wouldn't find more than the number you cited: ~180. But I'd base that number in comparison to the 40000+ students at your school...which is why I suggested earlier that no gun law, present or deleted, is going to have any effect at all on this incident or future ones. But if you wanted to draw a comparison, not that it would be much more valid, you would look at how many 28 year olds carry in the general population (should we go ahead and guess not many?) of florida, since that's the average age of your university.

so if you really wanted to know how many people would carry, perform a random survey on your fellow students. take a roster of everyone in your school, do a power analysis to ensure sufficient number of students to be surveyed, have a computer randomly generate the students to contact, if you end up with an n of 30 that should do it so shouldn't be terribly difficult to administer and come back with their responses so we can check it out. you could poll a variety of age brackets with equal responses in each cell. then you could compare those responses to who carries in the community. then you would get close to the question of who would want to carry, if they could, and whether the students were representative of florida's general population.

My guestimate is that you wouldn't get more than a 1% desire to carry on campuses, which nearly triples your 180 student estimate (1% of students alone is 420). And then wonder whether 1% of the population carrying would make a difference in any way shape or form.


there are probably a lot of design flaws in the study I just threw together, but it's just typed up real quick with not much contemplation. you could refine it or just think about it. but assuming in the best case scenario, having 1% of the population evently distributed around campus standing overwatch in case something like this happened. and you can see that given the students who were threatened and harmed by the shooting we're discussing, only 0-1 person would have been armed and present in the best case scenario.

[dksuddeth]

Originally Posted by smooth

to the first point, I don't know, but it would surprise me if texas and florida had the same carry laws. so what is legal in dk's state isn't likely relevant to what happens in yours.

While it is very true that each state is going to have different carry laws, the Texas carry law is based on the Florida...enough so that the 'gun free school zone' federal law is what applies.

[Deltona Couple]

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

While it is very true that each state is going to have different carry laws, the Texas carry law is based on the Florida...enough so that the 'gun free school zone' federal law is what applies.

TECHNICALLY it is Florida Law that is based on Texas law, because Texas had enacted their CCW laws years before Florida did. ALMOST and I say ALMOST all states with CCW licenses are nearly identical. This is proven by what is called the Reciprocation Law, which means that If you have a CCW permit in Florida, almost every state with a CCW permit will allow you to carry in their state. i.e. my Florida permit is accepted by Texas, Alabama, Georgia, etc...so I can carry my weapon concealed in all the "reciprocating" states, however I am responsable for knowing the specific laws IN that state, which have minor differences.

Where this man broke the law is here: even IF he HAD a CCW permit, that does NOT allow him to have his weapon in plain sight. If you have a CCW permit you are REQUIRED to do your best in keeping that weapon CONCEALED! ALSO in most states, if you DO NOT have a permit, and are transporting a firearm in a vehicle, it must be in a 3-step-fire condition. What this means is that it must take 3 steps to have the weapon ready to fire, and almost EVERY state requres a pistol to be in a box or holster with a butt-strap. So this is where the law was broken. If he was on school grounds, and the school is state funded, then he also broke the law that prohibits firearms on government property.

[archetypal fool]

Originally Posted by smooth

My guestimate is that you wouldn't get more than a 1% desire to carry on campuses, which nearly triples your 180 student estimate (1% of students alone is 420). And then wonder whether 1% of the population carrying would make a difference in any way shape or form.


there are probably a lot of design flaws in the study I just threw together, but it's just typed up real quick with not much contemplation. you could refine it or just think about it. but assuming in the best case scenario, having 1% of the population evently distributed around campus standing overwatch in case something like this happened. and you can see that given the students who were threatened and harmed by the shooting we're discussing, only 0-1 person would have been armed and present in the best case scenario.

Oh, I know there won't be 3.6% of the university's population carrying guns. Like I said, it's very unlikely. But is the same state ratio carried into the university, then that's the maximum of students who would carry. Most college students around me are too busy working/studying/partying to take the time and energy and money to go through the steps to acquire a gun and register a CCW, much less practice at a range.

If as few as 1% of the population at the university carried firearms, that's maybe 50 students/faculty with guns at any given moment. I'm still comfortable with that number, considering that it's mostly composed of upperclassmen and faculty (people with the time and money and discipline to become responsible), which I would trust more than the average freshman.

[Plaid13]

Simple set of thoughts going through my head here. This guy was crazy. Gun control is a good concept but dosnt work. The fact is there will always be crime and the people you dont want to have the guns will get them by illegal means. What needs to be regulated is the crazy people.

I havnt been paying much attention to the news lately but... i assume this has been blamed on just about everything including video games stress from racisim and other problems like that and everything else anyone can think of. But the simple fact is this guy was nuts. Not much you can do about people that are crazy except watch them for strange things they might be doing. Like collecting guns and alot of ammo. So if you know someone you dont think is mentaly stable... and they are collecting guns and lots of ammo... Tell someone about it maybe stop something bad from happening. And i dont mean the weird guy next door that has lots and lots of guns and seems to have a severe hatred for paper targets.

I personaly think shootings like this happen more here because of the media. And i dont mean violent movies. I mean the news. Pethetic suicidal teens watch this stuff and see it on the news and figure hey i want to die but i want everyone to remember me. Years ago someone started this sick fad and it caught on among the crazy people. Its a sick world full of sick people.

[dksuddeth]

Originally Posted by Deltona Couple

TECHNICALLY it is Florida Law that is based on Texas law, because Texas had enacted their CCW laws years before Florida did.

Florida became shall issue in 1987. Texas became shall issue in 1996.

[Deltona Couple]

I had thought that it was Texas first, but If you have a link or two to prove your statement, I would appreciate it. I have yet to find a specific date of enactment.

[dksuddeth]

Originally Posted by Deltona Couple

I had thought that it was Texas first, but If you have a link or two to prove your statement, I would appreciate it. I have yet to find a specific date of enactment.

This is the best I have at the moment. I'm recovering from a hard drive crash.

[Deltona Couple]

OK, I will wait for you to recover. pretty graphics aren't convincing enough for me...lol. I agree that I may be wrong, but I need more definitive evidence. I used to live in Texas, and I remember hearing about the arguments in Florida about the CCW law. Maybe the argument was over changes in the law perhaps? I am not sure. I guess all that matters is that I can carry in pretty much every state that I ever visit.

[Jinn]

That's a cool animation..

[Willravel]

Hmm...I guess we're winning.

[debaser]

Will, could you explain your post?

[Willravel]

Less unrestricted would be a good thing in my mind.

[debaser]

Shall-issue refers to the fact that the state must issue a concealed carry permit to anyone who applies and is allowed to legally own a firearm.

May-issue states can pick and choose who they wish to issue a permit to based on individual circumstances.

No-issue states do not allow anyone to carry a concealed weapon.

[The_Jazz]

Originally Posted by willravel

Less unrestricted would be a good thing in my mind.

OK.....

Then why are you happy? The number of "unrestricted" doubled from 1 to 2 when Alaska went to unrestricted in 2003.

And the entire country's been moving towards "shall-issue" for 15 years. Perhaps you want to go back and review the terms being used, because you seem unclear on them.

If anything, you're losing.

[pig]

well, that's it. i'm going to get my gun and apply for the license. would it look totally stupid for a 6'4" dude to be walking around with a pistol strapped to his shorts while he's wearing a birkenstocks?

if you see that guy somewhere, trust me: he's pretty cool. buy him a drink. preferably a decent bourbon or a flying dog pale ale.

[Willravel]

Ah. The descriptive language is confusing. Nevermind.

[Deltona Couple]

Originally Posted by pig

well, that's it. i'm going to get my gun and apply for the license. would it look totally stupid for a 6'4" dude to be walking around with a pistol strapped to his shorts while he's wearing a birkenstocks?

if you see that guy somewhere, trust me: he's pretty cool. buy him a drink. preferably a decent bourbon or a flying dog pale ale.

I hope that you have good money for an attorney, because if you strap it on your side in plain sight you WILL get arrested...lol

[pig]

damn deltona...gotta be peeing on my parade...oh well, it was a good dream while it lasted.

[dksuddeth]

Originally Posted by Deltona Couple

I hope that you have good money for an attorney, because if you strap it on your side in plain sight you WILL get arrested...lol

depends on where he lives. 44 states have some form of open carry that is quite legal.

[jorgelito]

There is a big difference between open carry and concealed carry, I think.

The laws are more strict towards "concealed carry"?

So then, open carry (defined as visible to others) is more common right?

[dksuddeth]

Originally Posted by jorgelito

There is a big difference between open carry and concealed carry, I think.

The laws are more strict towards "concealed carry"?

So then, open carry (defined as visible to others) is more common right?

again, that depends on the state.

Some states, like Virginia or New Hampshire, open carry is relatively common. Other states, like Wisconsin, open carry is extremely rare.
Most states that open carry is quite legal, you will not see it because of local law enforcement harrassment, so if concealed carry is available, that is usually the common method of carry.