Yeah... I'm a Skinhead (BBC Article) - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

World's King · 04-12-2007, 09:24 PM

Quote:

BBC NEWS
Under the skin
By Tom Geoghegan
BBC News Magazine

The skinhead movement is about to be reconsidered in a new film and a photographic exhibition. The menace and violence linger in the memory, but is it time to reassess the culture and its appeal in a more complex way?

It provided some of the most powerful youth imagery the UK has ever known. The shaved head, Doc Marten boots, braces and tight, bleached jeans made up a peculiarly British fashion that was exported around the world.

It was a look that became associated with the violence and racism of the late 70s - unfairly, according to its supporters. But the simmering menace added to its allure.

Now the movement, which came to the UK in two waves between the late 60s and mid-80s, is about to place its size 11s firmly back in the mainstream media.

1970s/80s SKINHEADS
Dress: Knee-high boots, flying jackets, Ben Sherman shirts, severely shaved head
Music: Two-Tone record label, The Specials, Cockney Rejects
Football: Attended matches en masse and named terraces like Chelsea's Shed
Difference to 60s skins: Coarser look, less influenced by mods and Jamaican ska

An award-winning, rites-of-passage film by Shane Meadows, called This Is England, hits cinemas at the end of the month. It's set in Thatcher's Britain of 1983, with mass unemployment and the Falklands War. A bullied boy joins a skinhead gang which is subsequently infiltrated by racists.

Meadows, who based the film on his own childhood in the East Midlands, says it's easily forgotten that the skinhead movement came about through the white man's love of black music.

A photographic exhibition which opened in London this week makes a similar point. Gavin Watson's portrayals of life as a teenage skinhead in High Wycombe show a racially diverse subculture that drew him in aged 14.

"Ultimately, it's difficult to explain the attraction, as it is for anyone deeply passionate about music, style and fashion," he says. "It's like asking 'why do you love your wife?' There was a lot of love involved and a lot of passion involved."

"There was a spiritual and mystical part of being a skinhead that is unfathomable," he adds.

One theory he offers is that fathers hard at work could not provide the role model older boys could on the street.

What his own father did give him, however, was a camera, when he was 15 and about to be kicked out of school.

Over the next decade he took 10,000 photographs which offer a unique insight into a hidden, and often misunderstood, world. Watson's interest in it ended when rave culture took over, although he says the fun had by then been replaced by macho posturing.

Part of the initial attraction was being hated. "We were absolutely vilified. People were scared of us and wanted to beat us up. It was part of that stress of being a child - there's always a meltdown going on."

The racists were laughed at in the pub, he says. And there was violence but it plagued all communities at the time, not just the skinheads.

But while black culture was generally respected for its influence, other ethnic minorities were not so lucky. Gerry Gable of anti-fascist group Searchlight says the skinheads were the enemy in the late 70s and made up about 80% of the so-called "Paki-bashers" who roamed Brick Lane.

Class nostalgia

"The far-right political groups were looking for any kids that were alienated and these kids were putting on the [skinhead] uniform and going to the gigs. The two recruiting grounds were "Oi" music and football violence."

There was an attempt to recapture a sense of working class solidarity and identity in the face of a tide of social change
Bill Osgerby
Bill Osgerby, a professor of media, culture and communications, says the penetration of National Front can be over-played.

He thinks the appeal of being a skinhead was complex and differed from person to person - there were racist dimensions and anti-racist ones.

"It's unfortunate that the racist elements have become such a by-word for skinhead culture. The media has played its part in this, but by the same token it's clear the fascist element has always been fairly vocal in skinhead culture. The sad bit is that the more enlightened, anti-fascist aspects have not better promoted themselves."

Class nostalgia played a big part too, he says. "In the late 70s and early 80s, working class culture was disintegrating through unemployment and inner city decay and there was an attempt to recapture a sense of working class solidarity and identity in the face of a tide of social change."

Cultural critic Dick Hebdige wrote an influential essay on the subject in 1982, called "This is England and They don't live here".

In explaining a common misconception about the title, he says that "They" does not refer to immigrants but educated, middle-class, white professionals who were deserting the rundown inner city areas skinheads shared with non-white immigrants.

And he sees an ambivalent psychology in the way skinheads gave voice to their class subordination, but at the same time chose to proudly re-enforce it - "throwing yourself away before 'They' do it for you".

Today there is little doubt the skinhead movement is appreciated for its contribution to British fashion and history, says Mr Osgerby, and the film and the exhibition will help to crystallize the way it vividly captured the time.

Another legacy is the way the style has been adopted by some gay men as an extreme form of masculinity. Marvin, a 33-year-old skinhead from Wakefield, says that is nothing new and part of the attraction is subverting what is considered "the norm".

"Feeling like an outcast for being gay or feeling like an outcast for looking a certain way isn't that much different."

This was England, a skinhead exhibition from the 1980s, is at the PYMCA gallery in London until 20 April.

A selection of your comments appears below.

A strong, vital look with its roots firmly in the sections of working class Britain which EMBRACED immigrants, their culture and their music. This image was sadly hijacked by fascists, but then recently has been turned on its head once again and adopted by homosexuals, the very subject of right wing vilification. It's a look which has over the years represented many sections of the political spectrum. So anyone who believes they can say exactly how every skinhead will behave is simply mistaken. Vive la skinhead!
jason, London, UK.

While the media likes to portray all skinheads as racists most of the skinheads I know have left wing political views. The nazi bone heads are just a small minority. Anyone remember the 80s skinhead band Redskins? - www.redskins.co.uk
Bazza, Boro

I would venture to say that nearly 100% of our local youth gangs and wannabe's have shaved heads now. Most of these are Hispanic and would have been the targets of the original skinheads. Generally, naturally bald males seem to be more mainstream than they ever were before. I wonder if the hair growth industry is suffering.
Doug K., Tijeras, NM USA

Some skinheads were bad. As a punk I was always taunted by them and threatened with violence. But I also knew lots of skins, they were good friendly people. So like most factions and sections of society there are good and bad. But the media has portrayed skins as racist, punks as glue sniffers, hippies as smelly, need I continue?
Gizz, West Country

When I was an eleven year old in 1981 I was repeatedly punched in the face by a HUGE skinhead who was at least three times my weight. Strangely enough even though I can still see the scars I never held any fear of this character type as I learned that anyone dressed anyhow can commit acts of violence against the smaller/weaker members of society. Skinheads were maligned and grouped as agitators because they really were all uniform.
Alistair, Edinburgh

It is funny because I hear all this about how skinheads were violent and anti-everything in the 70s - and they may well have been, at 25 I am too young to know - but the only ones I see now are the gay skinheads queuing to get into the Vauxhall Tavern.
Liza, London

Consett in County Durham in the mid 80s was a severe unemployment blackspot, skinheads were prevalent, as were those little red NF stickers, plastered to lampposts walls windows etc. The ska loving peaceful skinhead was as rare as a non white immigrant in our town. the skinheads who inhabited our streets were full-on violent racists. I'm not convinced that the 80s skinheads referred to were misunderstood, certainly not the ones I knew. I still see skinheads around now, mostly of the black music loving variety, they're completely different fashions in my view. I've no wish to get misty eyed over nasty times that produced nasty people.
Rico, Consett

Mod, Rocker, Punk and Skinhead are all part of Britain's culture and history. These trends are not just fads but real lifestyles that many people take very seriously. The stereotypical racist Skinhead was a media invention, the majority of Skins are peace loving hardworking educated decent people who love music and socialising
Phil Welsh, Dundee

The skin heads were racist and did not wait to ask you if you were a Pakistani or not before they beat you up. You just had to be non-white and they would chase you down and god help you if did not make it back to your house. This mindless violence was eventually stopped in my neighbourhood - not by the police of the 70s who were more racists than the skin heads - but by the next generation of the immigrants when we started fighting back. And as soon as we did that, the skin heads all but disappeared like a bunch of cowards.
Saeed, Bournemouth

Skinheads got a bad rap in the early 80's but I had a variety of experiences with them. The Grassroots coffee bar in Cardiff was where they hung out at that time. They were witty but if a mod came in there was the inevitable scrap. However, I remember being surrounded by twenty middle class kids who were going to fill me in ....who stepped in but a large skinhead who saved me from taking a hiding.
Simon Jones, Auckland

As a white middle class kid growing up in 1980s suburbia I had very little experience of prejudice. That was until (primarily for financial reasons) 12 years ago I began shaving my hair off. I then noticed starkly that I was treated with either suspicion or respect by pretty much everyone i came into contact with and have been ever since. It amazes me what a statement cropped hairs seems to make. I have also been accused of being a racist/fascist/thug/hooligan etc none of which is true. I am a gentle giant (honest). But I would not grow hair again for anyone. I learn a lot about people I meet by the way they judge me and it is very revealing about THEIR brand of prejudice.
Chris, London

On the topic of exporting Skinhead fashion/culture. I was travelling in northern Malaysia in 2003 and was waiting at a station when three Vespas turned up with 6 local lads in full skinhead garb. They had it down pat. Swastika tattoo on forehead, red braces, Fred Perry and Ben Sherman shirts, three-quarter bleached levis cut to the tops of their DMs. I was admiring how well they got the look and wondering where these guys in rural Malayisa would have got their references when I realised they were staring back at me none to pleased. There followed a rather intimidating 30 minutes with a language barrier in the way that was only resolved by supplying them with Marlboro Lights and singing a couple of "Specials" numbers to try and convince them I too was once one of the brethren (not helped by my wife reminding me that I was actually a parka wearing Mod in the 80's). Happy days
Paul, Crowthorne, UK

Much prefer a Skinhead over a hoodie, anyday!
Sandie Seward, Basildon U.K.

My personal experience of the skinhead with the bleached jeans and the braces has always for me been associated with the alternative gay scene. Walk down Old Compton Street today, and you will see quite a few good examples. Those guys don't really look that menacing - but put a football shirt on them and it's a whole different story.
Colin Leadbeatter, London, UK

I remember walking to Cubs aged about nine in the late sixties. My route took me down a long alley and one night there was a gang of skinheads in front of me. I hung back and one of them spotted me and started taking the mickey, saluting and shouting dib-dib-dib. Then they realised they were scaring me and their attitude changed completely. They ushered me past them, and sent me on my way with some friendly reassurances. It was an important early lesson that you can't necessarily judge by appearances.
Neil Hoskins, Aylesbury, UK

Damn, I hate men with shaved heads and the entire skinhead look, almost as much as I hate mullets. Last thing I want is all the men around me to look like that again. But the music.. aaahhh, the music! I loved, and still love ska. Hopefully this will mean its return.
MB, London

Growing up in Dublin during the late 70's/early 80's my friends & I were all Skinheads. We listened to & collected Jamaican music, Ska, Rock-Steady & Reggae, on record labels like Trojan & Studio 1. We loved the music, the look, the culture. We used to get the odd funny look when we'd turn up for a UB40 gig but once we explained to people the origins of the Skinhead movement they were amazed. In our early twenties we were part of the group that formed S.H.A.R.P. (Skinheads Against Racial Prejudice) & we met many Skinheads from all over the world with a similar vision & passion. Hopefully through exhibitions & films like these the true message of the Skinheads can be portrayed. One of love of Afro-Caribbean culture, music & style. Long live the "Spirit of '69".
Stephen, Dublin/Ireland

I seem to remember a rally held in Sheffield in the early eighties where some Ne'er-Do-Well Euro minister came to show solidarity with the poor downtrodden skinheads of the area. The skinheads ended up going on a rampage chanting we hate the rockers and breaking into shops. Truly a triumph for the "spiritual and mystical" skinheads. "Is it time to reassess the culture and its appeal in a more complex way?" What a load of revisionist clap trap, they were and are violent thugs and any time I wonder if maybe I'm being unfair to them, I can check out the scar tissue and realise I'm not.
Nick G, Worcester

Published: 2007/04/12 10:43:51 GMT

© BBC MMVII

As a life long Skinhead, I just thought I'd share some wisdom.

Menoman · 04-13-2007, 12:13 AM

cliffs notes maybe? 0_0

World's King · 04-13-2007, 09:51 AM

You people drive me fucking nuts.

Anything over 100 words and you ignore it.

This is the last time I post anything like this.

Glory's Sun · 04-13-2007, 10:13 AM

It's always good when a film or book comes out that portrays the truth. It helps shut our mouths and dispel our myths. I've never looked at a skinhead in a way that made me think they were evil just because they had a shaved head. It's good that people might actually realize that people are people and no matter what dress code you go by, there are always some bad apples; but generally those people are just misunderstood. i.e. people with tons of tattoos.

lindseylatch · 04-13-2007, 10:16 AM

I would live to see some of those pictures. Are there any copies online?

highthief · 04-13-2007, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guccilvr

It's always good when a film or book comes out that portrays the truth. It helps shut our mouths and dispel our myths. I've never looked at a skinhead in a way that made me think they were evil just because they had a shaved head. It's good that people might actually realize that people are people and no matter what dress code you go by, there are always some bad apples; but generally those people are just misunderstood. i.e. people with tons of tattoos.

In England, going to football matches, believe me, there were more bad apples than good ones among the skinheads. They were largely the type of scum that batons upside the head sorted out.

Glory's Sun · 04-13-2007, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by highthief

In England, going to football matches, believe me, there were more bad apples than good ones among the skinheads. They were largely the type of scum that batons upside the head sorted out.

So I'll just assume that all the Roma fans were skinheads

I was never in an area where there was a large population of skinheads, but I often find it unfair to label them as white supremacist or neo-nazi or whatever just because of their hair.

I'm sure there are just as many people with a full head of hair that cause as much trouble as those you observed.

hiredgun · 04-13-2007, 10:43 AM

WK and I chatted about this very briefly last night... this might be a product of my age (relatively young) and my geographical location (US), but it was never a matter of 'labelling' for me... I always assumed that skinhead as a concept referred directly to white power and racism. I was never exposed to it as a broader social movement containing various political (and apolitical) streams, and I thought that anyone identifying as a skinhead was willingly identifying as racist - and that therefore there was no problem in calling a spade a spade.

guccilvr: can one really be identified as a skinhead purely on the basis of one's hair?

Glory's Sun · 04-13-2007, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hiredgun

guccilvr: can one really be identified as a skinhead purely on the basis of one's hair?

Sure. People label people based on visual appearance every day. For instance, a guy or girl with piercings and tattoos walks into a country club and all the people watch him/her cautiously thinking they're going to get robbed. Add a shaved head to that and all of a sudden they are hitler's demon child.

I'm not saying it should happen or that I've done this very thing; I'm merely stating how often it occurs and people should actually just go about their business without worrying what hair style or artwork or preppy clothes a person has on.

Carno · 04-13-2007, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by World's King

As a life long Skinhead, I just thought I'd share some wisdom.

Don't you actually have to shave your head to be a skinhead? Isn't that why they're called skinheads?

highthief · 04-13-2007, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guccilvr

So I'll just assume that all the Roma fans were skinheads

I was never in an area where there was a large population of skinheads, but I often find it unfair to label them as white supremacist or neo-nazi or whatever just because of their hair.

I'm sure there are just as many people with a full head of hair that cause as much trouble as those you observed.

No, the Roma police might've been though!

No, really, there was a time when a very large percentage of the hooligans - esp at Chelsea and Millwall - were very much the stereotypical skinhead with various pseudo-facist delusions of being tough guys. It was an image bought into by a lot of little punks back then. Today, those same people would buy into something else just to cause trouble.

Carno · 04-13-2007, 11:53 AM

Also, why are there Americans commenting about British skinheads? What exactly do yall know about being a skinhead in the UK?

Glory's Sun · 04-13-2007, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carno

Also, why are there Americans commenting about British skinheads? What exactly do yall know about being a skinhead in the UK?

If it bothers you so much, then perhaps you should just stay out of the thread. Especially if you aren't going to add anything positive other than critical remarks.

Perhaps some of us have relatives in England so we keep abreast of what goes on in the UK. Hrmm who would have ever guessed that was possible?

World's King · 04-13-2007, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carno

Also, why are there Americans commenting about British skinheads? What exactly do yall know about being a skinhead in the UK?

A Skinhead in the UK is the same as a Skinhead in the US.

It doesn't have anything to do with race, religion, or sexuality... It's about having pride in your middle class upbringing. You don't have to shave your head... but it helps. You don't have to wear the knee-high boots with white laces, tight jeans, and Fred Perry shirt. Some days I look preppy, others I look hip-hop... No matter what I look like, I get up every day and go to work. I work to put food on my table and maybe have a little fun. And I'll be fucked if anyone ever tries to get in my way. I make myself look scary for that exact reason.

Oi! Oi!

Ourcrazymodern? · 04-13-2007, 01:42 PM

I'm pretty sure most of the "middle-class" wouldn't recognize skinheads as having anything to do with them. In other words, the message was overstated or mis-stated, if that's what the message (was or) is.
Exaggeration leads to misunderstanding; reactions, reflecting, (as if through fun-house mirrors) make things worse, and the cycle continues ad nauseum.
IT IS JUST US HERE, PEOPLE!

World's King · 04-13-2007, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ourcrazymodern?

I'm pretty sure most of the "middle-class" wouldn't recognize skinheads as having anything to do with them. In other words, the message was overstated or mis-stated, if that's what the message (was or) is.
Exaggeration leads to misunderstanding; reactions, reflecting, (as if through fun-house mirrors) make things worse, and the cycle continues ad nauseum.
IT IS JUST US HERE, PEOPLE!

That's cause most of the middle class is brain washed by the media into thinking that anyone that stands up for themselves is against the well-being of the masses.

"That person looks different then you so they must be out to harm you. Trust me. I look like you."

Let me put it very simply...

Skinheads do hate. They hate everything that is wrong in this world.

Ourcrazymodern? · 04-13-2007, 02:07 PM

Let me put it very simply:

The media does not control our thoughts, except as we let them.

Hate only produces more of itself.

I have tended to stand up for myself except when struck down by violence, a product of hate, or fear.

"Wrong" is a matter of perception.

Your thinking interests me.

roachboy · 04-13-2007, 02:34 PM

i am inclined to be suspicious of political attitudes that derive from clothing choices and hair style--but then again, if these consumer choice function to generate more radical critiques of the basically fucked up system under which we live, then why not?

i was introduced to oi by an anarchist, to a bunch of related music by a leninist, to the uniform-fetishist gym-bunny approach to fascist regalia by a council communist. go figure. so my impression is that such skinhead culture as exists in canada and the states is much more diffuse than it was in the uk...i'm wasn't really aware that there was a discrete skinheadcult here, really.

anyway, it is no surprise that the discussion in the thread, which is based on a bbc article about uk skinhead culture(s) and their internal diversity would spark a conversation mostly about uk skinhead culture(s) and their internal diversity.

in the states such culture as there is seems to be about hair and clothes and music preferences without particular political associations, in that way like any number of other ways of expressing you consumer preferences. some people like skippy, some people like jiff: some people like hair, some people dont; some people like oi and its afterglow, others like sheets of white noise--blah blah blah--maybe these people would go to the same clubs, maybe not....in itself, all these are politically meaningless. but maybe they're like gateways too. so fine. everyone starts somewhere.

as for fucking with the middle-class and their rigid expectations about pretty much everything, go for it. there are thousands of ways to do that, and some of them are even fun to do. why not? it's easy peasy, like shooting ducks in a barrel from what i hear from those who enjoy that kind of metaphor.

debaser · 04-13-2007, 02:43 PM

Funny, you could replace "skinhead" with "goth" in the article above and have the exact same piece of fluff (only funnier, because goths just crack me up).

World's King · 04-13-2007, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by debaser

Funny, you could replace "skinhead" with "goth" in the article above and have the exact same piece of fluff (only funnier, because goths just crack me up).

How the fuck is that fluff? The Skinhead history is just as rich and apart of what's shaped this world as anything else.

In the US we had Hippies. In the UK they had Skins.

Hippies chose a non-violent way or protest. Skins chose to just fight.

debaser · 04-13-2007, 03:52 PM

Perhaps I shouldn't call it fluff, I just have trouble taking skinheads very seriously (as a movement of course, not as individuals).

World's King · 04-13-2007, 04:40 PM

Which movement are you talking about? Neo-Nazi or the real one?

debaser · 04-13-2007, 04:54 PM

Both, honestly. All of the "real" skins I've known were as much into pointless violence as the nazis were. I'm sorry, but I just don't think breaking a bottle on someones jaw leads to any real resolution, regardless the reasons behind it. Don't get me wrong, I don't abhor violence, just useless violence. The rest of it (clothes, music, etc.) I could care less about. Goths, hippies, ravers, beat-heads, country line-dancers, skinheads, and bible thumpers: all the same to me.

Astrocloud · 04-13-2007, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by World's King

It doesn't have anything to do with race, religion, or sexuality... It's about having pride in your middle class upbringing. You don't have to shave your head... but it helps. You don't have to wear the knee-high boots with white laces, tight jeans, and Fred Perry shirt. Some days I look preppy, others I look hip-hop... No matter what I look like, I get up every day and go to work. I work to put food on my table and maybe have a little fun. And I'll be fucked if anyone ever tries to get in my way. I make myself look scary for that exact reason.

Then I'm a skinhead too, but more for bald reasons and less for "Fred Perry" reasons. Doesn't matter though - skinhead is about as relevant as "punk" anyways.

Menoman · 04-15-2007, 11:27 PM

I'm not sure what the arguement is here...

I think it's that skinheads get a bad reputation coz they shave their head, and because people automatically relate skinhead = hate, nigger beaters, curb stomping racists.

I'm quite middle class, and if the word "skinhead" meant middle class working man pride. I'd be glad to take the title.

But just like some other words, in actual reality, it doesn't mean that. At least not where I'm from.

Call a working class man here a skinhead, including myself, is asking for a working class ass beating. Just how it is.

and I still didn't read the OP, Sorry WK :P

Carno · 04-16-2007, 04:16 PM

I also find this whole skinhead thing laughable. If you want to call yourself a skinhead then go ahead, but like Menoman where I'm from the word the skinhead had very bad connotations. And I still don't understand how you can be a skinhead without having a shaved head

I used to completely shave my head every once in a while, and if anyone had ever called me a skinhead, I would have been fucking pissed.

I wonder how many of you would go up to a black man or a Jew and tell them that you're a skinhead? Working class hero? Give me a fucking break. Why exactly are you proud to be middle class? That's the same as being proud of being from the ghetto. I grew up lower class and moved into middle class in my high school years, but I am not proud of either. What is there to be proud of?

My goal is to better myself in all aspects of my life, including financially. I'll be damned proud if I make it to upper class because that will mean I've been busting my ass and working hard.

ziadel · 04-16-2007, 05:14 PM

Ya know, I've had LOTS of run ins with Skin Heads, some have even been violent. I did'nt know there were skinheads that were not racist/faschist.

Ya learn something new every day. You dont have like, swastika tattos, do you ?

And when you say you hate everything thats wrong, does that include our immigration policies and/or those taking advantage of those policies?

highthief · 04-16-2007, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by World's King

A Skinhead in the UK is the same as a Skinhead in the US.

I'm not sure I agree with this. You have to understand that in England, say, where skinheads made up a measurable proportion of the general population (as at one time Mods or Punks or Rockers did) and a large proportion of the football hooligan population, the impact of such a group on society is immeasurably greater than in most parts of North America.

I grew up in Montreal and in Liverpool and I knew such people on both sides of the pond. The fact is that one was never intimidated by skinheads in Montreal -their numbers were few, their cachet small, and you likely has as many friends to call upon as they did, if not more. The violence, while it existed, was no more or less than with other groups. The reverse was true in England. The original skins were basically a split from the Mods, an enormous part of the youth subculture, and were and continued to be the largely more violent part of that subculture, especially in the south of the country (hey, in Liverpool in the 70s, no one could afford a razor to cut their hair every day!)

serlindsipity · 04-16-2007, 09:22 PM

King, what was the book you recommended to me about Skinheads? I think you should link that, it was interesting.

Willravel · 04-16-2007, 09:44 PM

I'd love to see the more progressive skinheads asserting themselves and teaching people that not all skinheads are fascists or bigots. They've suffered from bad PR for decades.

...but the UK skinheads are very different from the US skinheads mainly because of the wonderful devotion and connection to Football (soccer) in the UK. The US skinheads didn't have as prominent and mainstream a rally point. And that's why more often skinheads in the US were connected to illegal drugs or white supremacy (or more recently trailer trash).

Ilow · 04-17-2007, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by World's King

A Skinhead in the UK is the same as a Skinhead in the US.

I am also not sure that this is true, not to lessen the US skinhead cultures influence by any means. It seems to me that part of the reason for the UK rebellion to being working class (or being proud of being working class, depending on your perspective) was that there was seemingly less opportunity to rise above your roots in the UK (correct me if I'm wrong, of course). Although the UK is a democracy, there is more of a distinct caste type class structure than in the US, and I feel like this feeling of less self-effecacy and hoplessness/dissillusionment influenced the movement there more so than in the US.

Schwan · 04-22-2007, 03:44 AM

I read the title of the article as "pornographic exibition" and got all exited. I had a friend in school who was a skin head and he got laid constantly, unlike most of us back then. So... thanks TFP for bringing back that memory.

While I heard of the movement's history, I think it's all in the past now. I have never met a skinhed who wasn't into white power and "kill all black people" nonsense. I think they took over.

World's King · 04-22-2007, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by serlindsipity

King, what was the book you recommended to me about Skinheads? I think you should link that, it was interesting.

I don't remember the book.

Although I do suggest that everyone watch "Romper Stomper"

04-13-2007, 09:51 AM	#3 (permalink)
World's King Here Location: Denver City Denver	You people drive me fucking nuts. Anything over 100 words and you ignore it. This is the last time I post anything like this. __________________ heavy is the head that wears the crown

04-13-2007, 10:16 AM	#5 (permalink)
lindseylatch Addict Location: Seattle, WA	I would live to see some of those pictures. Are there any copies online? __________________ "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities" "If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him." "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong." -Voltaire

04-13-2007, 11:53 AM	#12 (permalink)
Carno Junkie	Also, why are there Americans commenting about British skinheads? What exactly do yall know about being a skinhead in the UK? __________________ http://how-to-spell-ridiculous.com/

04-13-2007, 01:42 PM	#15 (permalink)
Ourcrazymodern? still, wondering. Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge	I'm pretty sure most of the "middle-class" wouldn't recognize skinheads as having anything to do with them. In other words, the message was overstated or mis-stated, if that's what the message (was or) is. Exaggeration leads to misunderstanding; reactions, reflecting, (as if through fun-house mirrors) make things worse, and the cycle continues ad nauseum. IT IS JUST US HERE, PEOPLE! __________________ BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

04-13-2007, 02:07 PM	#17 (permalink)
Ourcrazymodern? still, wondering. Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge	Let me put it very simply: The media does not control our thoughts, except as we let them. Hate only produces more of itself. I have tended to stand up for myself except when struck down by violence, a product of hate, or fear. "Wrong" is a matter of perception. Your thinking interests me. __________________ BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

04-13-2007, 10:13 AM	#4 (permalink)
Glory's Sun Registered User	It's always good when a film or book comes out that portrays the truth. It helps shut our mouths and dispel our myths. I've never looked at a skinhead in a way that made me think they were evil just because they had a shaved head. It's good that people might actually realize that people are people and no matter what dress code you go by, there are always some bad apples; but generally those people are just misunderstood. i.e. people with tons of tattoos.

04-13-2007, 10:43 AM	#8 (permalink)
hiredgun Addict	WK and I chatted about this very briefly last night... this might be a product of my age (relatively young) and my geographical location (US), but it was never a matter of 'labelling' for me... I always assumed that skinhead as a concept referred directly to white power and racism. I was never exposed to it as a broader social movement containing various political (and apolitical) streams, and I thought that anyone identifying as a skinhead was willingly identifying as racist - and that therefore there was no problem in calling a spade a spade. guccilvr: can one really be identified as a skinhead purely on the basis of one's hair?

04-13-2007, 02:34 PM	#18 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	i am inclined to be suspicious of political attitudes that derive from clothing choices and hair style--but then again, if these consumer choice function to generate more radical critiques of the basically fucked up system under which we live, then why not? i was introduced to oi by an anarchist, to a bunch of related music by a leninist, to the uniform-fetishist gym-bunny approach to fascist regalia by a council communist. go figure. so my impression is that such skinhead culture as exists in canada and the states is much more diffuse than it was in the uk...i'm wasn't really aware that there was a discrete skinheadcult here, really. anyway, it is no surprise that the discussion in the thread, which is based on a bbc article about uk skinhead culture(s) and their internal diversity would spark a conversation mostly about uk skinhead culture(s) and their internal diversity. in the states such culture as there is seems to be about hair and clothes and music preferences without particular political associations, in that way like any number of other ways of expressing you consumer preferences. some people like skippy, some people like jiff: some people like hair, some people dont; some people like oi and its afterglow, others like sheets of white noise--blah blah blah--maybe these people would go to the same clubs, maybe not....in itself, all these are politically meaningless. but maybe they're like gateways too. so fine. everyone starts somewhere. as for fucking with the middle-class and their rigid expectations about pretty much everything, go for it. there are thousands of ways to do that, and some of them are even fun to do. why not? it's easy peasy, like shooting ducks in a barrel from what i hear from those who enjoy that kind of metaphor. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

04-13-2007, 02:43 PM	#19 (permalink)
debaser Sir, I have a plan... Location: 38S NC20943324	Funny, you could replace "skinhead" with "goth" in the article above and have the exact same piece of fluff (only funnier, because goths just crack me up). __________________ Fortunato became immured to the sound of the trowel after a while.

04-13-2007, 03:52 PM	#21 (permalink)
debaser Sir, I have a plan... Location: 38S NC20943324	Perhaps I shouldn't call it fluff, I just have trouble taking skinheads very seriously (as a movement of course, not as individuals). __________________ Fortunato became immured to the sound of the trowel after a while.

04-13-2007, 04:40 PM	#22 (permalink)
World's King Here Location: Denver City Denver	Which movement are you talking about? Neo-Nazi or the real one? __________________ heavy is the head that wears the crown

04-13-2007, 04:54 PM	#23 (permalink)
debaser Sir, I have a plan... Location: 38S NC20943324	Both, honestly. All of the "real" skins I've known were as much into pointless violence as the nazis were. I'm sorry, but I just don't think breaking a bottle on someones jaw leads to any real resolution, regardless the reasons behind it. Don't get me wrong, I don't abhor violence, just useless violence. The rest of it (clothes, music, etc.) I could care less about. Goths, hippies, ravers, beat-heads, country line-dancers, skinheads, and bible thumpers: all the same to me. __________________ Fortunato became immured to the sound of the trowel after a while.

04-16-2007, 04:16 PM	#26 (permalink)
Carno Junkie	I also find this whole skinhead thing laughable. If you want to call yourself a skinhead then go ahead, but like Menoman where I'm from the word the skinhead had very bad connotations. And I still don't understand how you can be a skinhead without having a shaved head I used to completely shave my head every once in a while, and if anyone had ever called me a skinhead, I would have been fucking pissed. I wonder how many of you would go up to a black man or a Jew and tell them that you're a skinhead? Working class hero? Give me a fucking break. Why exactly are you proud to be middle class? That's the same as being proud of being from the ghetto. I grew up lower class and moved into middle class in my high school years, but I am not proud of either. What is there to be proud of? My goal is to better myself in all aspects of my life, including financially. I'll be damned proud if I make it to upper class because that will mean I've been busting my ass and working hard. __________________ http://how-to-spell-ridiculous.com/ Last edited by Carno; 04-16-2007 at 04:21 PM..

04-16-2007, 05:14 PM	#27 (permalink)
ziadel Myrmidon Location: In the twilight and mist.	Ya know, I've had LOTS of run ins with Skin Heads, some have even been violent. I did'nt know there were skinheads that were not racist/faschist. Ya learn something new every day. You dont have like, swastika tattos, do you ? And when you say you hate everything thats wrong, does that include our immigration policies and/or those taking advantage of those policies? __________________ Ron Paul '08 Vote for Freedom Go ahead and google Dr. Ron Paul. You'll like what you read.

04-16-2007, 09:22 PM	#29 (permalink)
serlindsipity Psycho Location: Boulder Baby!	King, what was the book you recommended to me about Skinheads? I think you should link that, it was interesting. __________________ My third eye is my camera's lens.

04-16-2007, 09:44 PM	#30 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	I'd love to see the more progressive skinheads asserting themselves and teaching people that not all skinheads are fascists or bigots. They've suffered from bad PR for decades. ...but the UK skinheads are very different from the US skinheads mainly because of the wonderful devotion and connection to Football (soccer) in the UK. The US skinheads didn't have as prominent and mainstream a rally point. And that's why more often skinheads in the US were connected to illegal drugs or white supremacy (or more recently trailer trash).

04-22-2007, 03:44 AM	#32 (permalink)
Schwan A boy and his dog Location: EU!	I read the title of the article as "pornographic exibition" and got all exited. I had a friend in school who was a skin head and he got laid constantly, unlike most of us back then. So... thanks TFP for bringing back that memory. While I heard of the movement's history, I think it's all in the past now. I have never met a skinhed who wasn't into white power and "kill all black people" nonsense. I think they took over.