mixedmedia

But to make money it is in their interest to persuade consumers that they need what they have to sell. I don't think it's necessarily extreme to suggest that they try to "brainwash" the public into thinking those things. It's certainly a closer description than say, "encourage" or "influence" or "inspire." They need for us to buy their products, therefore, in the interest of making a lot of money, they're going to stop at very little in order to get us to do so. We already know that manufacturers used to use subliminal messages in their advertising in order to literally "brainwash" consumers into buying their products. What makes them all of a sudden so much more ethical now - other than a law preventing them from continuing it?

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Jinn

Everyone in our lives -- including peers, mentors, idols, students, bosses and subordinates, doctors, dentists, the media and even our parents -- have an interest in convincing us to believe them. This will never change.

You cannot blame the media (or anyone else) for attempting to sell their products, person, or knowledge, as it is necessary for their survival.

The detriment occurs when we have been convinced that we're helpless against this wave of pressure, or that 'the media' is this strong armed goliath who forces us to believe certain things. It's quite simple to have beliefs in direct opposition with the popular opinion, but most seem to believe that very few are capable of it.

The media is only at fault if you we let them be at fault, rather than taking personal responsibility for what we individually believe.

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

ubertuber

Maybe part of this is the tendency to talk about "the media" as though it were some monolothic entity, rather than the myriad independent concerns that it really is.

__________________
Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

mixedmedia

Yes, they are a myriad of independent concerns competing with each other to get a better grip on the consumer wallet. Which may even be worse, lol.


I'm not really "blaming" them for anything. I'm just stating facts as I see them.

I'm not convinced that we're helpless against it. I buy used and I buy generic more often than not because, well, I've always been kind of poor. I have very few "brand preferences." But, I don't think I am in the mainstream of American consumerism, even for people of my income level (which is lower middle class). I say this only from my ordinary experience as an observer of people's buying habits.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Sultana

True. But I do think they are to be commended for not following the standard, tried-and-true pandering to the lowest common denominator...using 20-yr-olds to sell anti-wrinkle potions, lingerie models to sell girdles, etc.

I am curious about how successful this advertising campaign has been for them, and how they would define success.

Oh, and to return to the "genetic freak" arguement, I think it's fairly widely recognized that the term "freak" is considered derogatory. Perhaps the term "genetic rarity" would be a better choice of phrase.

__________________
"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath.
At night, the ice weasels come." -

Matt Groening

My goal? To fulfill my potential.

mixedmedia

Yes, Sultana. I really want you to be right. But the cynic in me sees it as a marketing ploy to make Dove stand out amongst other soaps. I'm a terrible pisser sometimes, I know. But I can't help it.

I'd be interested in knowing how they define the success of this campaign, as well.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Jinn

Couldn't be more right, uber. I always hear "the media" as the cause of society's ills, but rarely do I hear specific entities addressed. The newspaper I work for is entirely different than NBC nightly news, which is certainly different from contemporary cinema, which is completely different from video games, which have no relation to tabloid magazines, which likely have nothing to do with the NY Times.

And yet "The Media" is always portrayed as a massive Goliath of ideas and products being shoved down our throats, and the source of all our wretched ideas.

"The Media" has been blamed for violence against women, violence against children, mass-murder, racism, sexism, ageism, discrimination, sexual objectification of men and women, political dissonance, antisocial tendencies, popularization of poor body image, and even drug use.

And yet, all of these things have (and do) exist in the absence of 'mass media.' Perhaps it is the individuals, rather than the force of the mass media, which causes this sort of deviance? After all, The Media is comprised of people, too.

I've recently been reading "The Trouble with Diversity: How We Learned to Love Identity and Ignore Inequality" by Walter Benn Michaels, and it makes a similar claim. If we face economic inequality head on, we have to develop solutions and rationalize why there are poor people. If we hide economic inequality under the guise of racism, then we can point to a unstoppable social problem.

If we blame "the media" for our poor body images, then we don't have to deal with why we've got a poor body image and why we haven't taken the time internally to change it (or change those around us).

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

roachboy

you can also look at "the media" or mass visual culture more generally as the colonization of your dreams and desires: you must desire and you must desire commodities otherwise the socio-economic system would not function; you are interpellated as desiring particular things in particular ways; you are staged as desiring images associated with particular things in particular ways; you are shown via repetition that there are not only normative images of that which is desired, but also normative images of yourself as desiring, and by extension of yourself as desirable. your relations to the commodity spectacle are staged in this manner over and over and over and over again, and across a field defined by repetition questions intent(s) (of those who produce and/or disseminate advertising material) become increasingly irrelevant.

this much in the way that one's relation to a beatles song in 2007 is conditioned more by its repetition than by that which is repeated.

repetition acquires autonomous functions. repetition generates autonomous functions, which generate autonomous effects.

intent as it plays out in systems of production and distribution rely upon psychological sorting mechanisms deployed by the audience in ways that they do not and cannot control entirely. this because the conscious level of interaction with this material is only one level: as memory, as material of dreams, it acquires other meanings: advertising images come to refer to other images derived from other sectors of experience; they get tangled up with norms of beauty, norms that shape one's sense of adjustment to the context through which one moves. in the space of unconscious repetition and cross-referencing, genre distinctions no longer matter.

i sometimes wonder if one's body image operates at some lizard brain level in between cognitive and kinesthetic functions, and whether this image is perpetually that of a child, animated by some strange residual desire for approval from some spectre of one's parents and the mechanisms for self-punishment that accompny real or imagined failures to gain this approval like some strange extension of the superego. i know from my own experience of having lost alot of weight that one's body image can be very strange indeed and quite of out phase with one's physical being. and i also know that making adjustments to this image/these images can be a very tricky matter, more an ongoing process than anything on the order of a tv set on which one can simply change the channel.

whether its meant to do so or not, these images operate as elements within a system that is amenable to a type of domination, a particularly american type of domination characterized by the wholesale internalization of the fact of one's domination, so that one does it to oneself. which is a pretty cost-effective way of managing a population. you can even convince people that this system of domination is the best of all possible worlds.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

mixedmedia

I think people are cognizant of the interactivity between consumerism, information and entertainment. Thus we have declarations of what "the media" are doing. And these three branches of societal influence are moving closer and closer together.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

analog

I think it's funny that people want to blame the media. While they definitely contribute, I think I know the real culprit. Here's something I haven't seen brought up yet:

How much more than the media, do you think women subject each other to harsh judgment that causes these terrible body image issues?

The bottom line is, no matter how hot you may be, there's some jealous bitch who will look at you and say, "your eyes are too close together" or "I guess you don't mind that flab on your side" or "I wish I could eat what I want and not care what I look like".

Yeah. You all know it's the truth- so how much do you really think the media effects "everyone"... and how much of it is the media mostly getting right to the most shallow, self-absorbed women out there who then form themselves into what the media portrays, and then guilt all the other women into conforming and trying to keep up with them?

The number of times I've seen a woman make a comment about another woman on an advertisement pales in comparison to the number of times I've heard women make nasty little comments to each other about how much better looking they are because they do x, y, and z... meanwhile, they weigh 62 pounds soaking wet and are a walking skeletal structure anatomy lesson.

So think about it... how much is the media micromanaging body image... and how much of it is really just hitting those shallow women who respond to all external ideals of beauty because they have no concept of self-respect, and who then pass on all their baggage about looking "a certain way" onto others?

mixedmedia

I think they feed off of each other.

...and for that matter, I've seen just as many men make snide comments about the appearance of women as I have other women.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

roachboy

i should be a bit clearer: i dont think that problems generated for body image by the usual run of things in viscult is the result of a conspiracy of producers of advertising material--i think it is mostly an unintended consequence--that you can think about in system terms and integrate into other patterns of domination.

what i wonder about is the extent to which these images function as reference points across the board, with explicit problems resulting for a subset of people.
if anything like that is true, then questions of relatively "shallowness" of members of that subset--those folk for whom these images generate problems--is moot.
i can say that i do not consider myself to be particularly shallow, but that i have some trouble synching up my image of myself physically with how i appear to be these days--all kinds of strange things result from this--like a tendency to suppress--to the point of sometimes not experiencing--desire; this strange assumption that seems to come from nowhere i can get to that i should not experience it or need not experience it--all this comes from my reaction to being 300 lbs or so heavier than i am now and my reaction to that experience. since i dont enjoy a spectator's relation to my own psyche, i cant say the extent to which these reactions derived from any particular source: but i can say that if there are problems of synch between who or what you imagine yourself to be, or what you are physically as over against what you feel that you should be, that they are real and complicated problems.
it seems to me ridiculous to attempt to limit them to Others who you have decided are Shallower than You.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Ourcrazymodern?

Self-esteem comes from within. We should value our individual packaging more than we do.

__________________
BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

jorgelito

No, no, no. No chip here, I think you misunderstand. I am not blaming the media entirely, I am pointing out the role it plays and the effects it has. I am fairly media neutral actually but harbor an interest and curiousity to it. I once considered pursuing a career in advertising but felt it paid too little.

I most certainly agree the dynamic between all the parties listed are entirely more complex than covered here. The media is only one player in a complex web involving people, and other entities as well. While they are not by any measure the sole contributor they are certainly a player. And yes, of course people are responsible for themselves as well. The best way to counter act the effects of the media is to not indulge in it at all. I use the media for my own personal use and not the other way around (or at least I try to). In other words, I make the media "on demand" for my needs.

However, what I was trying to point out was the fact that regardless of how informed or educated etc a person is, they are still vulnerable to the power of suggestion on a subconcious level that is highly influential. EX: repeated images of standards of beauty that are presented will eventually seep into the subconcious and further play a role in how people construct their world. This has an effect of institutionalizing and drilling into people's heads whatever message, deliberate or not, the media producer has sent. Typical issues tend to be sexism, misogyny, race, etc.

Your last line sums up the basic premise of what i was trying to say, but I wanted to add that the media is not off the hook by any means.

ngdawg

I've never heard that said from one to another-as a gossipy aside, yes-everyone does it. It's a natural act to compare oneself and one's possessions to another. Some are catty about it. That's not media. That's just being a bitch.
Media-advertising mostly, does cater to the shallow, the insecure. Strip away the poetry and you're basically hearing and seeing, 'Look, Lady. You're gonna get old and if you don't buy our product and wear our clothes, you will end up looking like your grandmother.'
As I mentioned earlier, the concept of a beautiful woman 100 years ago was one commonly called 'Rubenesque'-full hips and thighs, small waist, large bust.
Where was that image made? Art, media of its day. Then look at the 'beauties' of each of the past few decades on media and locate old pictures of your mom or grandmother. I think it fair to say our parents did not influence advertising;advertising influenced them.
It's not a matter of lacking self-respect that gets people to fall for the hype, it's fear. Fear that if they don't acquiesce to some degree, the implied negative results will arise. I know many who have plenty of self-respect; they also have plenty of money invested in beauty products. I see nothing wrong in wanting to improve on one's appearance, but doing it because XYZ says it will make one's life better or doing it to appease the catty ones is where the lack of self-respect comes to play. It should be done because one has enough self-respect to put their 'best face' forward and no other reason.

__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

ARTelevision

I know exactly what "media" is.
And I know that I always have lived in a world totally controlled by mass media .
As a result, I have no freedom of thought or action.

As for specific instances, not being discussed, there's some discussion here: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...a+mind+control

But, hey, it's great if you think you are stronger that all that.

To bring this back to being somewhat on topic - I'd never even consider saying that parents have control over anything at all.

Just speaking for myself from my own experience, it desn't appear that way.

I do find it fascinating that so many folks think they are or even can be free in any way.

I don't see it.

__________________
create evolution

The_Jazz

Wow, Art, that was...depressing.

Personally, I think that the media only reflects cultural ourselves back at us. And that we're unfortunately flawed. Perhaps the media enhances those flaws somehow, but ultimately we're to blame, not the media, who, by the way, is us anyway.

Convoluted? Yes.

Hmm, after rereading that, maybe I'm agreeing with you Art.... I need to ponder that some more.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

mixedmedia

I agree with Art in that, to varying extents, maybe relyng on our willingness to be consumed, we are all products of media influence.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

roachboy

i dont know if this is still directly relevant, but for some reason i am interested in playing around with this idea and so will put it here.

with regard to art's post above:

a. freedom is not a matter of the absence of constraints---without constraints there is no form and without the possibility of form, there is no coherence.
freedom lay in the relations you adopt to constraints.
so freedom is a relation rather than a state.
so one *is* not either free or not free: one can be simultaneously both depending on the kind of relation to constraints that shapes your interaction with them.

b. say that "body image" is a construct assembled inductively that stands in for the bodily schemata that link dimensions of intentional action in the context of recursive statements--in other words, body image would be formalized when you tried to generate an account of it, either explicitly (via statements that involve the operation directly--"i am thinking of the relation of activity pattern x to a regulative image..." which seems unlikely as a sentence, doesnt it?) or implicitly (any recursive act, any act that involves working out a fit between stuff that you do with or to your body and an image that might explain or condition it)---so in a way there is no "body image" but rather a series of dispositions that shape your relation to your body (which is a type of interaction) that you can treat as if it were a discrete image in particular contexts.

where do these dispositions come from? it seems reasonable that if you were to abstract them and treat them as a discrete assemblage (which they aren't) they'd probably look like a tunnel that would lead you into your past and which would eventually lead you to early childhood and not so much what you parents did or did not do, but more to your reactions to what your parents did or did not do--the confusing thing about this idea is that it would not be reducable to any set of discrete actions by the parental units, but more to them as framing conditions for the process of socialization. so when i wondered above about whether body image was some "lizard brain" function, what i meant was that it leans on dispositions that are probably shaped quite early on in the process and so operate at a level that is mostly unconscious.

what i wonder about is the extent to which media contexts shape not only the content but the form of mental imagery. so if you grew up around television, you adapt features of the medium in the staging of mental operations: so memory can be modelled on television, so dreaming involves images which are brought into resolution across television as a model, that kind of thing. if there is such a relation, then these images that define the beautiful in tvland would have a strange set of relations to images that you might use to think about or orient your own actions.

in other words, i agree with the idea that we are inside a particular type of cultural landscape and that it is not escapable because it IS our frame of reference. but i wonder about how this is true more than about the fact of it. and i wonder about what options that opens up (and forecloses) for thinking about political questions--and freedom is a political matter, not a dispositional one if you understand these dispositions as subjective.

or something.
i wonder if this makes sense.
posting it anyway.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

ARTelevision

Well, when I was thinking it through and arriving at these observations, it did, of course, seem as if it might be depressing to see myself and the world in those terms. But it's just depressing from the romantic point of view that we can be the masters of our destiny and that there is such a thing as an "individual." We also like to think of ourselves as empowered. So what I decided was that just because we have a need to think and feel a certain way is no reason to deny things we may observe.

I also see that denial is one of the defining traits of the humans I have observed - including myself, of course.

But anyway I decided not to indulge my need to feel a certain way.


...and that has made all the difference.

Now, I can just look at things and say what I see - especially in myself.


_____________________________________________________

So to be direct as regards questions in the OP:

"What can be done to change the (IMHO dangerous) trend toward unattainable and unrealistic standards of beauty? I realize that some things are evolutionarily hard-wired, but most of our standards are socially constructed. How do we deconstruct them and rebuild them in a positive way?"

- nothing can be done about culturally enforced standards of anything, including deconstructing them.

Therefore, as I see it, it becomes crucial that we keep these things in the forefront of our consciousness. And that's what to do about things. Nothing changes.

I try to keep that in mind at all times...

__________________
create evolution

pamplemousse

I suppose the fact that the Dove ads are slightly different in the US from in the UK ones shows that the marketing people are aware of differences in the two audiences' attitudes - that's to say, we're at different stages in accepting that you don't have to be size zero to look great. More or less, though, they're marching to the beat of the same drum, in-line with the current trend for promoting 'real beauty' and 'real women' in the mainstream western media.

Having already given myself up to the pursuit of unattainable physical perfection, with results I'm ashamed of, my initial reaction to the campaign was to congratulate the brains behind it - for having been brave enough to speak out. On the other hand, having read an article in the New Statesman last week, I feel slightly cast down.

http://www.newstatesman.com/200703260022

Now, she's up-ed the stakes for me: I don't want to feel pressure to be a model, but nor should being a 'real woman' stand as an aim we need to strive for. It's a cliché that we should all 'reach our potential' and 'learn to love ourselves', and a sorry day when advertising is applauded as one of a few remaining reminder of those eternal sentiments.

Either, what we're seeing is another manipulative marketing stratagem of the highest feel-good calibre, or - though I'm fearful to admit it - it's advertising, no doubt, but with genuine overtones of righteous rebellion. If not, why did we all sit up and take notice?

When Peugeot cars were advertised to the M People track Search for the Hero (I don't know if you got that in the US), we indulged in the belief that human virtue still exists within each of us - but we didn't go to press about it. It wasn't news that all of us would like to think we were greater than a statistic. Equally, Coke ads pulled at the heart strings with images of generosity and a vibrant community spirit, creating another unrealistically idyllic scene, unattainable in our society. Nevertheless, we don't feel required to E-mail the company in gratitude that they have helped raise our self-esteem.

In brief, my initial joy that Dove ads promote what I was too scared to hope for - the portrayal of 'real women' as beautiful - has been dampened. Now, it feels like a distant dream that anyone but the size zero models will really be considered beauties - as distant as the notion that we're anything but statistics (at least as far as the marketing dept. is concerned), or that someone really would like to 'buy the world a Coke'.
Significantly, I can handle that the lady with the clipboard doesn't really care what my favourite colour is, and that the free Coke distribution going on at the supermarket was a blatant ploy to get me hooked. That I struggle with judgements I face - be it as an emaciated anorexic (as was) or a 'real woman' - bothers me more.

Jinn

It might've been said before, as this 'ad campaign' seems to be popular among many, but I think there is something quite interesting when comparing the US version to the Japanese one.





I'm not sure what it means, other than our standards of beauty are different, but it's interesting nonetheless.

And on the aside, labeling this "real beauty" might make those who are obese feel that they are closer to "real beauty," but it in doing so it makes people who are genetically (or by choice) skinny feel that they are farther from "real beauty."

No matter which way you go, you're going to be 'discriminating' against the group who isn't portrayed. The question then becomes who you are more interested in not discriminating against.

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

ngdawg

Interesting....are those cutey girls considered plain in Japan?
Another interesting note: Not one of those American women is anywhere close to what one would consider 'homely', nor is anyone of them out of shape-no blobby stomachs, double chins; their faces are very attractive, hair stylish, no eyeglasses on a single one.
I call bullshit on Dove.

__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

Jinn

Now that you mention it, I call bullshit on their faces being attractive.

Not that we need another thing for self-conscious women to obsess about

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

kurty[B]

I personally like that Dove ad. Still not going to buy their products, and don't mind if someone is trying to change the opinion of the masses on what real beauty is. I personally think real beauty is being happy with yourself, inside and out. I only know a few people who truly fit that definition.

I'm wondering when Sultana is going to replace those super skinny girl models in ads with her natural beauty?

highthief

No wonder I find Asian women so attractive.

__________________
Si vis pacem parabellum.

Kaliena

I think it's an interesting angle that Dove is taking, however, it's still being used to market their products, which to me dilutes any of the impact it really could make.

Also, I think it would be interesting to see how long this campaign sticks around.

____

OT note: hi all, it's been a minute. Silly work getting in the way...

__________________
~Beware the waffle~

thed00t

I think you guys are over complicating this entire issue. Dove's angle isn't some philosophical essay on American life, love, and attraction.

Dove's angle is to sell you something. Product manufactures know that their products are more or less the same. The MAJOR contributing difference in wether or not people buy a product over another one is branding.

If you've ever worked in marketing, or with marketing folks, or near marketing folks you know how disgusting the entire industry is. I used to work with marketing folks, and I quit a very nice paying job because I hated how they used pyschology into basically emotionally manipulating people into buying shit they didn't need.

Don't read into this marketing campaign, and don't give it any attention. That's exactly the point of the campaign. The ENTIRE cosmetic industry is based on insecurity and improving image.

That being said I'd like to comment on what society thinks is attractive. Some posters have mentioned younger audiences negative reactions to the older women presented.

Well I'm 25 and I can say I'm not attracted to women that have signs of advanced age. I've seen 40 and 50 year olds that are attractive, and even 60s that show signs of beauty, but I'll be the first to admit that they looked very young for their age, and you could tell that they were very striking when they were younger. I'm sorry, that's just the way younger men feel. We are going to be most attracted to women in our generation. And we can't help it. Men can't really help what we are attracted to. Part of our selection process is indeed subconcious and we are attracted to women based on certain qualities they possess. It's just like the animal kingdom. The most colorful male bird attracts the mate. Why? Because it is likely the most healthiest and strongest mate.

There is a perfectly acceptable biological explanation as for why younger men are not attracted to older women that display signs of age. It is a scientific fact as a women approaches menopause, the chances of birthing a healthy child decreases. Therefore it is only natural in young males to find women who display signs of age not "sexy". Sexy here being defined as a mate you would select.

Now older men tend to not have this problem for a number of reasons. One of these reasons, again back to biology, is decreased testosterone which means the brain isn't quite telling the body we need to be having sex on a regular basis with a woman who can birth a child. This means sex can be with any partner you find attractive, and attractive is not just physical. But when you are young, you can't help but be horny and want to mate with attractive healthy females. There is no apologizing for that at all for males, it's biological and part of the human condition.

Either way, I think everyone is reading far too much into this ad campaign. I think ad campaigns in general should be ignored. They are not reachign into our pysche, they are trying to make a buck.

Lizra

Beauty isn't as important as young people think it is....of course, you don't realize this till you are older, so.....
When you are older, you can easily look nice, but people don't come calling just for beauty's sake anymore. They do come calling for advice, $$, the voice of experience, help understanding things, a shoulder to cry on......

Isn't Dove just trying to sell to older people too.....by not having so many annoying dewy faced babe bods in all their ads?
Their soap clogs my pores and gives me pimples.....

__________________
Happy atheist

Sultana

Doesn't that contribute to a more youthful appearance?

I know I looked very much younger when I had my braces on in my mid-20's.

__________________
"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath.
At night, the ice weasels come." -

Matt Groening

My goal? To fulfill my potential.

mixedmedia

I used to work for a children's tv network and sat in on a meeting with some marketing folks from a toothpaste company that was teaming with our network and they had a real hoot telling us how in their commercials they would be loading up the toothbrush with about five times more toothpaste than the kids would actually need to brush their little teeth so that the kids would emulate it and, of course, go through their tubes of toothpaste faster. They thought it was funny. As a parent of two small children (at the time) I was appalled.

I realize that a lot of good people make their living that way, but I could never do it.

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Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Carno

Like others before me have said, Dove doesn't really give a shit about chubby women. They just want to make money. This whole ad campaign is just a new marketing angle.

Lizra

Heh! "Zits! Better than Botox!"

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Happy atheist

pornclerk

I personally think the media is a bunch of bull shit. Every day we are told what is beautiful and what is not. I personally don't buy into this crap. I am smart enough to know that what they are doing is wrong. Anyone who can't see that is just plain naive.

I happen to be an overweight person, not morbidly obese or anything, just thicker. I love my body. I know it sounds weird to say that because most people with weight problems don't feel this way. The media tells us that we shouldn't like our bodies if we are fat. When I look in the mirror, I like what I see. I know that being overweight is bad health-wise and I am trying to lose weight because of that, not because the media tells me to be skinny.

The thing that really gets me, is how many people have judged me based on my weight. For example, I was standing in line at a coffee shop and these girls about high school aged were commenting on my weight. I don't think they realized I could hear them. I was slightly insulted that people can't see that I am a person with feelings just like every body else. Personally, I think anyone who speaks in that manner is uneducated and trashy. Couldn't they find something more productive to talk about?

Anyhow, that's my little rant about weight and the media.

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Who wants a twig when you can have the whole tree?

777

I dated a gal with braces recently. I thought that she was younger, but she was actually my age.

With regards to women, I prefer the 50's pin-up look to today's twiggy gals. I remember chatty with this young gal, and I teased her by saying that she looked twiggy. Much to my surprise, she took it as a compliment

With regard to how I present myself, I rarely am influenced by the media. I just want Andy Garcia's hair, and I'll keep wearing my hawaiian shirts all year round, with my college proffesor glasses with the large frames. But for special occasions, I have my coat and ties that I've gone out of my way to find.

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"I don't know that I ever wanted greatness, on its own. It seems rather like wanting to be an engineer, rather than wanting to design something - or wanting to be a writer, rather than wanting to write. It should be a by-product, not a thing in itself. Otherwise, it's just an ego trip."

Roger Zelazny

Ourcrazymodern?

"...we see the violence inherent in the system. Help, I'm being oppressed! You saw it, didn't you?"

We're not forced to watch TV or read anything. "The media" has no more control over any individual than that individual gives it.

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BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

ngdawg

I'd laugh if I didn't see zits just now in the mirror....freakin menopause and pimples...had'em since I was nine....at least the oily skin that comes with them prevents wrinkles, although I have a couple of those too.
I can just see it now: Mortician tries squeezing my last zits in an effort to make me look decent while laid out. *sigh*

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Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

pnarel

Women judge themselves more harshly than men judge themselves, that's why there are no commercials like this targeted towards men.

Obviously exclusively advertising attractive women is unrealistic, but the issue can go both ways as advertising someone's definition of "normal" doesn't mean that there aren't attractive women out there also. Additionally, a model is supposed to be quintessential, that is the reason that the model is a model.

It is not cruel to advertise the quintessential, as most women would like to be comparable to a model.

So I am for the opinion that this is all, at least to a certain extent, a marketing ploy by Dove.

Most importantly, if all models including such as the Victoria's Secret models would be replaced by average women, the world would suffer a great loss.

Our society is tough, but there is no reason to be lax with all the fast food at our disposal.

Lizra

Oh! I know your pain. It used to seem my face had more oil than the persian gulf. Finally after 2 rounds of accutane and passing 50 I've dried out a little, but now I have rosacea! I don't think all those facial sauna machine steam treatments and millions of washings with scrubby pads and hot water helped!
Still, that dove soap breaks me out......it is for small pores and dry skin only.

Yeah....less wrinkles, but oily skin or no, you can't stop the sags! Menopause will probably make the rosacea worse....oh well...who cares, not me!

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Happy atheist

Jinn

Amazing. Thank you.

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"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel