The flood myths - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

pai mei · 03-13-2007, 12:45 PM

Flood myths are all around the world, on every continent. The one from the bible is just an ancient hebrew myth, it resembles a summerian myth.
In all the myths there are simmilar elements : gods being angry at men ,in some of them one man is warned and escapes with a boat, waters cover all the land, then the survivors escape on the highest peaks when the water receeds.
Also many of them tell about other "creations" where the people were "bad" and the world was destroyed and reborn. Acording to the maya we are number 5
How do you think these myths appeared ? Was there a great flood , what could have caused it ?

Quote:

Babylonian

Three times (every 1200 years), the Gods became distressed by the disturbance from human overpopulation. The Gods dealt with the problem first by plague, then by famine. Both times, the God Enki advised humans to bribe the God causing the problem. The third time, Enlil advised the Gods to destroy all humans with a flood, but Enki had Atrahasis build an ark and so escape. Also on the boat were cattle, wild animals and birds, and the family of Atrahasis. After seeing the suffering caused by the flood, the Gods regretted their action, and Enki established barren women and stillbirth to avoid the problem in the future.

Quote:

Hindu

Manu, the first human, saved a small fish from the jaws of a larger fish. After hearing the smaller one beg for protection, Manu kept the fish safe, transferring it to larger and larger containers as it grew, finally returning it to the ocean.
Because of this kindness, the fish returned to warn Manu about an imminent flood and told him to build a boat, stocking it with samples of every species. After the flood waters rose, Manu tied a rope to the fish's horn. The fish led him to a mountain and told Manu to fasten the ship's rope to a tree so that it would not drift. He stayed on the mountain (known as Manu's Descent) while the flood swept away all living creatures. Manu alone survived.

Quote:

Celtic

Heaven and Earth were great giants, and Heaven lay upon the Earth so that their children were crowded in the darkness between them. One of their sons led his brothers in cutting up Heaven into many pieces. From his skull they made the firmament. His spilling blood caused a great flood which killed all humans except a single pair, who were saved in a ship made by a beneficent Titan. The waters settled in hollows to become the oceans.

Here are some links to flood myths :

http://www.dreamscape.com/morgana/titania.htm
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deluge_%28mythology%29

The_Jazz · 03-13-2007, 01:03 PM

I wish I could remember where I saw it, but I remember seeing a story about a small village discovered off the coast of the Turkish side of the Black Sea under several hundred meters of water. Apparently fire pits, etc. were stil easily visible. The theory that was being advanced was that there was an ice dam between the Mediterranean and the Black Sea at the end of the last ice age. The ice retreated leaving the ice dam in place for several hundreds of years and people occupied the newly-vacated land. The ice dam crumbled at some point, releasing a huge torrent of water. I can imagine that would be a relatively common occurrence at the end of an ice age as lakes formed and ice dams released, especially in mountainous regions.

Since it's such a good story, I can also imagine everyone telling their neighbors about it.

pai mei · 03-13-2007, 01:17 PM

The myth is also in South and North America .
- there was a great flood in one place and the myth spread around - then the myth must be really old, maybe from the time when the continents were toghether ?
- there was a universal flood - I think this is the better explanation, because all the myths talk about very much water covering all the land.
They found south american tobacco in some egyptian mummies, maybe indeed there was an advanced civilization before us, and it was destroyed by the flood, and the survivors all over tho world made the myth

The_Jazz · 03-13-2007, 01:26 PM

Pai Mei, I think that a series of smaller floods is a much better explanation than one single one when there's no geological evidence to support the latter, unless you want to count rising sea levels and river levels at the end of the last ice age. Those could indeed be seen as a global flood. Also, there's no reason to assume that if these were local floods that they all occurred at the same time. A series of major floods over 1000 years would easily leave the same stories.

Humans didn't exist when all the continents were together. We weren't even a promising species. That's the time of the dinosaur - and not even the really cool ones like T. Rex. We're talking a couple of billion years ago (roughly). Your suggestion that the myth dates to then is stretching a little.

I've never heard of South American tobacco being found with Egyptian mummies. Can you tell me which tombs or who found it? It doesn't seem plausible to me.

DaveOrion · 03-13-2007, 01:44 PM

I think you guys have covered it, in my mind anyway. Sea levels were much lower during the last ice age and much more of the earths land mass was exposed. There may have been several ice dams, one at the gibraltar straight, which would have held back the atlantic and the whole mediteranean sea area would be dry. Another at the straights of bospherus, which would have the whole black sea area dry. Sea levels rise world wide, the water breaks through the ice dams, and thus a world wide flood myth is born.

pai mei · 03-13-2007, 01:54 PM

http://www.forteantimes.com/articles/117_toke.shtml
Here is an article about the egyptians.
No "scientist" wants to ask the question "how ?" ,they even try to make it look like a false discovery.

The_Jazz · 03-13-2007, 02:05 PM

Yeah, we've got an unrepeated experiment that's not accepted by the experts with no verification in the historical record. The Egyptians wrote about EVERYTHING. They were one of the first societies of scribes. I find it impossible to believe that they would have recorded mundane details like pay scales and recipes but somehow forget to mention the pan-global civilization that they did business with. This isn't proof - it might be with more work, but it's not proof.

And scientists get paid to ask "how" along with "why".

politicophile · 03-13-2007, 02:10 PM

two characters

DaveOrion · 03-13-2007, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by politicophile

This actually isn't true. Due to the weight of the ice on top of the continents, sea level in North America was about 300 feet higher than it is today. I don't know if the same figure applies to other continents, but I expect that those close enough to the poles would find themselves in a similar position.

As for the universal flood / localized flood debate, the localized flood possibility is significantly more plausible in my mind. As far as I know, a global flood as never occurred, nor can I think of precisely how that would happen. After all, floods are caused by water moving from one place to another, so rising water in one location means falling water in another.

It was the height of the Ice Age, when sea levels were 400 feet lower than today, and there was a lot more land to go around.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/warnings/waterworld/

pai mei · 03-13-2007, 02:17 PM

Scientists are no longer listened to, and lose their jobs, when they talk "nonsense". One of the first who talked such things was Copernicus
It was not a single experiment there were many. I found out about it from a documentary on Discovery channel, now I searched and found that link

DaveOrion · 03-13-2007, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pai mei

Scientists are no longer listened to, and lose their jobs, when they talk "nonsense". One of the first who talked such things was Copernicus
It was not a single experiment there were many. I found out about it from a documentary on Discovery channel, now I searched and found that link

Or the current regime in power, just pays the scientists to say what they want. You dont have to be a scientist to see whats going on, just open your eyes and look around.

The_Jazz · 03-13-2007, 03:28 PM

In all seriousness, does this thread belong in Paranoia? I'm starting to get that sense, but I'm certainly willing to listen to counterarguements (see how I'm not a part of the establishment?).

The fact that none of my friends who work at the Field Museum make these kinds of complaints or accusations leads me to believe that Paranoia may be a better place for this discussion.

Elphaba · 03-13-2007, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz

In all seriousness, does this thread belong in Paranoia? I'm starting to get that sense, but I'm certainly willing to listen to counterarguements (see how I'm not a part of the establishment?).

The fact that none of my friends who work at the Field Museum make these kinds of complaints or accusations leads me to believe that Paranoia may be a better place for this discussion.

Jazz, it has the potential for Paranoia, but in truth the geologic record in the Middle East documents a "great flood" in the region that would coincide with theologic estimates of when the flood occured. Given that Judiac history could only consider the extent of their travels, a world flood is merely an assumption on our part. Scientific investigation has proven that there was a great flood in the region.

My two cents worth

ShaniFaye · 03-13-2007, 03:51 PM

I think that would be like stating the god debate threads needs to go in paranoia

ie...I dont agree

Charlatan · 03-13-2007, 03:58 PM

If I remember correctly, the original creation myths (including Christianity) are all based on the idea of a world of water from which land rises.

The idea of the flood suggests a new beginning.

In Christianity the flood is the second covenant with God (i.e. Hey Noah... I kind of screwed up with humanity. I need a do over. I like you though and I like my animals. Here's the deal, you save the animals in and you get to be my chosen one. Deal?"

Elphaba · 03-13-2007, 04:02 PM

They then "high five" and Noah asks "what is a cubit?"

SecretMethod70 · 03-13-2007, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

If I remember correctly, the original creation myths (including Christianity) are all based on the idea of a world of water from which land rises.

The idea of the flood suggests a new beginning.

In Christianity the flood is the second covenant with God (i.e. Hey Noah... I kind of screwed up with humanity. I need a do over. I like you though and I like my animals. Here's the deal, you save the animals in and you get to be my chosen one. Deal?"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elphaba

They then "high five" and Noah asks "what is a cubit?"

beautiful.

ShaniFaye · 03-13-2007, 04:30 PM

"Riiiiight"

The_Jazz · 03-13-2007, 05:22 PM

To clarify, my thoughts about whether to move this thread or not didn't come from the religious aspect of the conversation but rather from the "scientists afraid to speak" portion - Egyptian tobacco, humans in Pangaea, universal flood, etc. In my experience, it's difficult to mix faith and science in an intelligent and mature manner.

We'll see where this takes us.

Elphaba · 03-13-2007, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShaniFaye

"Riiiiight"

A Bill Cosby great, doncha think?

Infinite_Loser · 03-13-2007, 06:10 PM

...And people deny there being a distinct anti-Christian air to TFP.

Willravel · 03-13-2007, 06:27 PM

There's nothing anti-Christian in here. Do you have anything to add about the flood myths? Or maybe you're just in here out of anti-atheist resentment?

It's entirely possible that the flood myths are real, and it's entirely possible that they're not. I remember reading somewhere that they (scientists? historians? dunno) theorize that the Atlantian Empire fell because of a massive tectonic plate shifting. I don't think there is really any evidence to support it, but a global flood could also explain it seeing as they were said to be sea-faring (thus many of their largest cities would be near sea level). Actually, the global flood could have been caused if there was a tectonic shift that moved a pole closer to the equator. The sudden melt would raise sea levels quickly, and also dump millions of gallons of fresh waters into the sea, killing of many fish and lowering the global temperature.

DaveOrion · 03-13-2007, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser

...And people deny there being a distinct anti-Christian air to TFP.

Its not just Christianity, its anything that doesnt have a plausible scientific explanation. This really stifles the creativity of this board, very closed minded, and not even open to the realm of new possibilities. Unless they're scientificly plausible. Sad really...

Willravel · 03-13-2007, 06:45 PM

Yeah that Tilted Literature section is 100% non-fiction.

How about you stop threadjacking? This is about the plausibility of the flood, not the frustrations of the supposedly oppressed Christian minority.

DaveOrion · 03-13-2007, 06:49 PM

Please Will, continue with your flood discussion....I was simply commenting on a post in this thread. Is that alright???

Val_1 · 03-13-2007, 07:29 PM

1. People tell stories about things around them.

2. Many stories are embellished (myths)

3. Floods are common in many parts of the world.

That's how I see it, anyway. I don't see any reason, unless there's legitimate scientific evidence, to even suspect a world wide flood.

onodrim · 03-13-2007, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser

...And people deny there being a distinct anti-Christian air to TFP.

No one here has said a single thing against Christians. In fact the opening post mentioned various flood myths, not simply the Judeo-Christian version. So the thread itself isn't even necessarily a "Christian" thread if you must apply a label. The thread exists to discuss various world wide flood myths. That is the only thing I see happening here. Just because someone doesn't believe the way you do doesn't make them "anti-Christian." I don't believe in Shiva, but I'm not "anti-Hindu." I simply have a differing world view. I can respect their beliefs while still engaging them in debate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveMatrix

Its not just Christianity, its anything that doesnt have a plausible scientific explanation. This really stifles the creativity of this board, very closed minded, and not even open to the realm of new possibilities. Unless they're scientificly plausible. Sad really...

We have an entire Paranoia Forum dedicated to discussing things that "don't have a plausible scientific explanation."

Infinite_Loser · 03-13-2007, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onodrim

No one here has said a single thing against Christians. In fact the opening post mentioned various flood myths, not simply the Judeo-Christian version. So the thread itself isn't even necessarily a "Christian" thread if you must apply a label. The thread exists to discuss various world wide flood myths. That is the only thing I see happening here. Just because someone doesn't believe the way you do doesn't make them "anti-Christian." I don't believe in Shiva, but I'm not "anti-Hindu." I simply have a differing world view. I can respect their beliefs while still engaging them in debate.

*Brings your attention to posts number 15, 16 and 17*

I just thought I'd point that out, as you seemed to miss it. I suppose people don't see it because, typically, one is blinded to that which they actively participate in.

politicophile · 03-13-2007, 08:28 PM

two characters

DaveOrion · 03-13-2007, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onodrim

We have an entire Paranoia Forum dedicated to discussing things that "don't have a plausible scientific explanation."

I understand that, but the flood myths arent paranoia(in my mind), and neither is a galactic alignment, with cultural myths associated with it. Its the overall method of response that sometimes bothers me. Members whose views, opinions, or beliefs are not that of the majority, often are subtly ridiculed by others. I have suggested that members state their own opinions without attacking those of another, but many enjoy their ability to proselytize unabated by moderation.

Willravel · 03-13-2007, 09:06 PM

Shame on some of us for requiring reasonable evidence. How dare we?

SecretMethod70 · 03-13-2007, 09:30 PM

Paranoia is probably not the best name for that forum, but I can't think of anything better. I would agree that the flood myths don't really belong there, seeing as how there is physical evidence of some large floods which those stories are probably based off of. That said, there is no evidence whatsoever for a worldwide flood.

As for galactic alignment having some metaphysical meaning or even physical effect leading to an end-of-the-world scenario or any other similar prophecy...that is exactly the type of thing Tilted Paranoia was created to discuss. Like I said, it's probably not the best name for the forum, but "Tilted There-is-no-scientific-or-logical-reason-to-believe-this-to-be-true-but-I-want-to-discuss-whether-it-may-be-anyway" is just a bit cumbersome. If you have recommendations, feel free to PM them to me and I will seriously consider them.

As for members ridiculing others, please use the report post link when you feel that is the case (not when someone says something which may offend someone, but when someone says something that is genuinely attacking another member). Reporting posts sends an e-mail to all the moderators and calls more people to look at the situation and make a decision about it. That said, I personally don't see anything wrong with someone telling another person that what they are saying makes absolutely no sense using the well-established and proven methods we, as a civilization, have for determining what is likely to be true.

Elphaba · 03-13-2007, 09:36 PM

Quote:

*Brings your attention to posts number 15, 16 and 17*

I just thought I'd point that out, as you seemed to miss it. I suppose people don't see it because, typically, one is blinded to that which they actively participate in.

Infinite, we participated in a little back and forth in humor. It is allowed in my relationship with my higher being.

Did you read Post #13?

DaveOrion · 03-13-2007, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

Shame on some of us for requiring reasonable evidence. How dare we?

I think you're off topic Will, better watch that thread hijacking....

Astrocloud · 03-13-2007, 09:47 PM

I always wondered why people wore those pants.

Elphaba · 03-13-2007, 09:54 PM

::sigh:: Once again, there is scientific, geologic evidence of a "great flood" in the area of the Middle East that coincides with the theologic estimation of the event, based upon the historical references of the time.

It happened. We are free to ascribe any meaning we wish to, but the great flood did happen.

Menoman · 03-13-2007, 10:21 PM

Very interesting thread. I enjoy reading these types of things.

Infinite_Loser · 03-13-2007, 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by politicophile

I don't see any reason to get upset about "anti-Christian" tendencies just because someone told a biblical story in informal language and then another made a joke about an extinct unit of measurement. Am I missing the crux of the insult or is this much ado about nothing?

I'm going to have to go with "You're missing the crux of the insult" but, as I stated, people are typically blind to that which they actively participate in, so I'm just preaching to the proverbial choir. I'll just keep this in mind for future reference

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elphaba

Infinite, we participated in a little back and forth in humor. It is allowed in my relationship with my higher being.

Did you read Post #13?

Oh, I don't believe in the number 13. Therefore, I ignore anything that corresponds to it.

pai mei · 03-14-2007, 02:40 AM

I did not open this thread to prove the bible wrong. I am not an atheist, I am more into buddhism. The existance of all the other flood myths only proves that the one in the bible is true.
I believe there was a global flood, and it happened fast, that is why all the myths tell about boats and very few survivors. What else could have caused all the myths ?
I wrote about the egyptians and tobacco just to show that history could be inaccurate. 10000 years ago they say we were living in caves. But the earth is very old, look how far we got in just 10000 years.
Also there are traces of nuclear explosions in ancient India and they also have a poem about them. Troy was just a fantasy story until someone decided to go digg it up.

http://s8int.com/atomic1.html

New theory of mine :
10000 years ago or earlyer there were some advanced civilizations, and they were destroyed by some flood, not all the people on earth experienced it, then the flood myths appeared. Simple

Charlatan · 03-14-2007, 04:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser

*Brings your attention to posts number 15, 16 and 17*

I just thought I'd point that out, as you seemed to miss it. I suppose people don't see it because, typically, one is blinded to that which they actively participate in.

As the poster of #15 I have to ask if you have a sense of humour or is this just a blind spot when it comes to your belief system. Seriously.

I believe politicophile summed up the three posts perfectly.

Since many of us "anti-Christian" types seem to have missed the "crux" of the insult perhaps you would care to point out where there was an insult because I can't seem to find one.

Back to the thread itself... my point was that many creation myths start with a world of water. It is held by biblical scholars that the creation myth in Genesis rises from other creation myths that precede it.

I am speculating that The Flood myth, which in the Bible represents the second covenant with God (the first being with Adam, the third with Abraham and the final with Noah) represents God, starting things over. Blank slate (with some notable exceptions).

While there is some debate amongst scholars, it is felt that the Bible is all myth and etiologies until it gets to the book of Joshua (some feel it should go as far back as Deuteronomy). To me, there is no need to be a literalist when it comes to the Torah or the Pentateuch (the first five books). The symbolism is there in the writing. Do you really need to believe that there was a Noah or Adam and Eve or a tower of babel, etc? And if so why?

To me they are great myths that we tell ourselves. There are great lessons to be learned and, frankly, the foundation of western civilization's moral and judicial code stems from them.

If you are offended by this take on things, all I can suggest is that you need to believe in your religion a little bit harder. Because, what I am writing is hardly new and it is hardly faith shaking.

03-13-2007, 01:03 PM	#2 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	I wish I could remember where I saw it, but I remember seeing a story about a small village discovered off the coast of the Turkish side of the Black Sea under several hundred meters of water. Apparently fire pits, etc. were stil easily visible. The theory that was being advanced was that there was an ice dam between the Mediterranean and the Black Sea at the end of the last ice age. The ice retreated leaving the ice dam in place for several hundreds of years and people occupied the newly-vacated land. The ice dam crumbled at some point, releasing a huge torrent of water. I can imagine that would be a relatively common occurrence at the end of an ice age as lakes formed and ice dams released, especially in mountainous regions. Since it's such a good story, I can also imagine everyone telling their neighbors about it. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

03-13-2007, 01:17 PM	#3 (permalink)
pai mei Insane	The myth is also in South and North America . - there was a great flood in one place and the myth spread around - then the myth must be really old, maybe from the time when the continents were toghether ? - there was a universal flood - I think this is the better explanation, because all the myths talk about very much water covering all the land. They found south american tobacco in some egyptian mummies, maybe indeed there was an advanced civilization before us, and it was destroyed by the flood, and the survivors all over tho world made the myth __________________ Blog One day there will be so many houses, that people will be bored and will go live in tents. "Why are you living in tents ? Are there not enough houses ?" "Yes there are, but we play this Economy game"

03-13-2007, 01:26 PM	#4 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	Pai Mei, I think that a series of smaller floods is a much better explanation than one single one when there's no geological evidence to support the latter, unless you want to count rising sea levels and river levels at the end of the last ice age. Those could indeed be seen as a global flood. Also, there's no reason to assume that if these were local floods that they all occurred at the same time. A series of major floods over 1000 years would easily leave the same stories. Humans didn't exist when all the continents were together. We weren't even a promising species. That's the time of the dinosaur - and not even the really cool ones like T. Rex. We're talking a couple of billion years ago (roughly). Your suggestion that the myth dates to then is stretching a little. I've never heard of South American tobacco being found with Egyptian mummies. Can you tell me which tombs or who found it? It doesn't seem plausible to me. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

03-13-2007, 01:44 PM	#5 (permalink)
DaveOrion Playing With Fire Location: Disaster Area	I think you guys have covered it, in my mind anyway. Sea levels were much lower during the last ice age and much more of the earths land mass was exposed. There may have been several ice dams, one at the gibraltar straight, which would have held back the atlantic and the whole mediteranean sea area would be dry. Another at the straights of bospherus, which would have the whole black sea area dry. Sea levels rise world wide, the water breaks through the ice dams, and thus a world wide flood myth is born. __________________ *Syriana*...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

03-13-2007, 01:54 PM	#6 (permalink)
pai mei Insane	http://www.forteantimes.com/articles/117_toke.shtml Here is an article about the egyptians. No "scientist" wants to ask the question "how ?" ,they even try to make it look like a false discovery. __________________ Blog One day there will be so many houses, that people will be bored and will go live in tents. "Why are you living in tents ? Are there not enough houses ?" "Yes there are, but we play this Economy game"

03-13-2007, 02:05 PM	#7 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	Yeah, we've got an unrepeated experiment that's not accepted by the experts with no verification in the historical record. The Egyptians wrote about EVERYTHING. They were one of the first societies of scribes. I find it impossible to believe that they would have recorded mundane details like pay scales and recipes but somehow forget to mention the pan-global civilization that they did business with. This isn't proof - it might be with more work, but it's not proof. And scientists get paid to ask "how" along with "why". __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

03-13-2007, 02:10 PM	#8 (permalink)
politicophile Addict	two characters __________________ The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error. ~John Stuart Mill, On Liberty Last edited by politicophile; 02-09-2008 at 08:19 PM..

03-13-2007, 02:17 PM	#10 (permalink)
pai mei Insane	Scientists are no longer listened to, and lose their jobs, when they talk "nonsense". One of the first who talked such things was Copernicus It was not a single experiment there were many. I found out about it from a documentary on Discovery channel, now I searched and found that link __________________ Blog One day there will be so many houses, that people will be bored and will go live in tents. "Why are you living in tents ? Are there not enough houses ?" "Yes there are, but we play this Economy game"

03-13-2007, 03:28 PM	#12 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	In all seriousness, does this thread belong in Paranoia? I'm starting to get that sense, but I'm certainly willing to listen to counterarguements (see how I'm not a part of the establishment?). The fact that none of my friends who work at the Field Museum make these kinds of complaints or accusations leads me to believe that Paranoia may be a better place for this discussion. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

03-13-2007, 03:51 PM	#14 (permalink)
ShaniFaye Submit to me, you know you want to Location: Lilburn, Ga	I think that would be like stating the god debate threads needs to go in paranoia ie...I dont agree __________________ *I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!*

03-13-2007, 03:58 PM	#15 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	If I remember correctly, the original creation myths (including Christianity) are all based on the idea of a world of water from which land rises. The idea of the flood suggests a new beginning. In Christianity the flood is the second covenant with God (i.e. Hey Noah... I kind of screwed up with humanity. I need a do over. I like you though and I like my animals. Here's the deal, you save the animals in and you get to be my chosen one. Deal?" __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

03-13-2007, 04:02 PM	#16 (permalink)
Elphaba Deja Moo Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA	They then "high five" and Noah asks "what is a cubit?" __________________ "You can't ignore politics, no matter how much you'd like to." Molly Ivins - 1944-2007

03-13-2007, 04:30 PM	#18 (permalink)
ShaniFaye Submit to me, you know you want to Location: Lilburn, Ga	"Riiiiight" __________________ *I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!*

03-13-2007, 05:22 PM	#19 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	To clarify, my thoughts about whether to move this thread or not didn't come from the religious aspect of the conversation but rather from the "scientists afraid to speak" portion - Egyptian tobacco, humans in Pangaea, universal flood, etc. In my experience, it's difficult to mix faith and science in an intelligent and mature manner. We'll see where this takes us. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

03-13-2007, 06:10 PM	#21 (permalink)
Infinite_Loser Junkie Location: Lake Mary, FL	...And people deny there being a distinct anti-Christian air to TFP. __________________ I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

03-13-2007, 06:27 PM	#22 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	There's nothing anti-Christian in here. Do you have anything to add about the flood myths? Or maybe you're just in here out of anti-atheist resentment? It's entirely possible that the flood myths are real, and it's entirely possible that they're not. I remember reading somewhere that they (scientists? historians? dunno) theorize that the Atlantian Empire fell because of a massive tectonic plate shifting. I don't think there is really any evidence to support it, but a global flood could also explain it seeing as they were said to be sea-faring (thus many of their largest cities would be near sea level). Actually, the global flood could have been caused if there was a tectonic shift that moved a pole closer to the equator. The sudden melt would raise sea levels quickly, and also dump millions of gallons of fresh waters into the sea, killing of many fish and lowering the global temperature.

03-13-2007, 06:45 PM	#24 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Yeah that Tilted Literature section is 100% non-fiction. How about you stop threadjacking? This is about the plausibility of the flood, not the frustrations of the supposedly oppressed Christian minority.

03-13-2007, 06:49 PM	#25 (permalink)
DaveOrion Playing With Fire Location: Disaster Area	Please Will, continue with your flood discussion....I was simply commenting on a post in this thread. Is that alright??? __________________ *Syriana*...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

03-13-2007, 07:29 PM	#26 (permalink)
Val_1 Addict Location: In a State of Denial	1. People tell stories about things around them. 2. Many stories are embellished (myths) 3. Floods are common in many parts of the world. That's how I see it, anyway. I don't see any reason, unless there's legitimate scientific evidence, to even suspect a world wide flood. __________________ I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day. -Frank Sinatra

03-13-2007, 08:28 PM	#29 (permalink)
politicophile Addict	two characters __________________ The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error. ~John Stuart Mill, On Liberty Last edited by politicophile; 02-09-2008 at 08:17 PM..

03-13-2007, 09:06 PM	#31 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Shame on some of us for requiring reasonable evidence. How dare we?

03-13-2007, 09:30 PM	#32 (permalink)
SecretMethod70 Human Administrator Location: Chicago	Paranoia is probably not the best name for that forum, but I can't think of anything better. I would agree that the flood myths don't really belong there, seeing as how there is physical evidence of some large floods which those stories are probably based off of. That said, there is no evidence whatsoever for a worldwide flood. As for galactic alignment having some metaphysical meaning or even physical effect leading to an end-of-the-world scenario or any other similar prophecy...that is exactly the type of thing Tilted Paranoia was created to discuss. Like I said, it's probably not the best name for the forum, but "Tilted There-is-no-scientific-or-logical-reason-to-believe-this-to-be-true-but-I-want-to-discuss-whether-it-may-be-anyway" is just a bit cumbersome. If you have recommendations, feel free to PM them to me and I will seriously consider them. As for members ridiculing others, please use the report post link when you feel that is the case (not when someone says something which may offend someone, but when someone says something that is genuinely attacking another member). Reporting posts sends an e-mail to all the moderators and calls more people to look at the situation and make a decision about it. That said, I personally don't see anything wrong with someone telling another person that what they are saying makes absolutely no sense using the well-established and proven methods we, as a civilization, have for determining what is likely to be true. __________________ Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

03-13-2007, 09:47 PM	#35 (permalink)
Astrocloud Apocalypse Nerd	I always wondered why people wore those pants.

03-13-2007, 09:54 PM	#36 (permalink)
Elphaba Deja Moo Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA	::sigh:: Once again, there is scientific, geologic evidence of a "great flood" in the area of the Middle East that coincides with the theologic estimation of the event, based upon the historical references of the time. It happened. We are free to ascribe any meaning we wish to, but the great flood did happen. __________________ "You can't ignore politics, no matter how much you'd like to." Molly Ivins - 1944-2007

03-14-2007, 02:40 AM	#39 (permalink)
pai mei Insane	I did not open this thread to prove the bible wrong. I am not an atheist, I am more into buddhism. The existance of all the other flood myths only proves that the one in the bible is true. I believe there was a global flood, and it happened fast, that is why all the myths tell about boats and very few survivors. What else could have caused all the myths ? I wrote about the egyptians and tobacco just to show that history could be inaccurate. 10000 years ago they say we were living in caves. But the earth is very old, look how far we got in just 10000 years. Also there are traces of nuclear explosions in ancient India and they also have a poem about them. Troy was just a fantasy story until someone decided to go digg it up. http://s8int.com/atomic1.html New theory of mine : 10000 years ago or earlyer there were some advanced civilizations, and they were destroyed by some flood, not all the people on earth experienced it, then the flood myths appeared. Simple __________________ Blog One day there will be so many houses, that people will be bored and will go live in tents. "Why are you living in tents ? Are there not enough houses ?" "Yes there are, but we play this Economy game"