The flood myths
 

Flood myths are all around the world, on every continent. The one from the bible is just an ancient hebrew myth, it resembles a summerian myth.
In all the myths there are simmilar elements : gods being angry at men ,in some of them one man is warned and escapes with a boat, waters cover all the land, then the survivors escape on the highest peaks when the water receeds.
Also many of them tell about other "creations" where the people were "bad" and the world was destroyed and reborn. Acording to the maya we are number 5
How do you think these myths appeared ? Was there a great flood , what could have caused it ?


Here are some links to flood myths :

http://www.dreamscape.com/morgana/titania.htm
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deluge_%28mythology%29

I wish I could remember where I saw it, but I remember seeing a story about a small village discovered off the coast of the Turkish side of the Black Sea under several hundred meters of water. Apparently fire pits, etc. were stil easily visible. The theory that was being advanced was that there was an ice dam between the Mediterranean and the Black Sea at the end of the last ice age. The ice retreated leaving the ice dam in place for several hundreds of years and people occupied the newly-vacated land. The ice dam crumbled at some point, releasing a huge torrent of water. I can imagine that would be a relatively common occurrence at the end of an ice age as lakes formed and ice dams released, especially in mountainous regions.

Since it's such a good story, I can also imagine everyone telling their neighbors about it.

The myth is also in South and North America .
- there was a great flood in one place and the myth spread around - then the myth must be really old, maybe from the time when the continents were toghether ?
- there was a universal flood - I think this is the better explanation, because all the myths talk about very much water covering all the land.
They found south american tobacco in some egyptian mummies, maybe indeed there was an advanced civilization before us, and it was destroyed by the flood, and the survivors all over tho world made the myth

Pai Mei, I think that a series of smaller floods is a much better explanation than one single one when there's no geological evidence to support the latter, unless you want to count rising sea levels and river levels at the end of the last ice age. Those could indeed be seen as a global flood. Also, there's no reason to assume that if these were local floods that they all occurred at the same time. A series of major floods over 1000 years would easily leave the same stories.

Humans didn't exist when all the continents were together. We weren't even a promising species. That's the time of the dinosaur - and not even the really cool ones like T. Rex. We're talking a couple of billion years ago (roughly). Your suggestion that the myth dates to then is stretching a little.

I've never heard of South American tobacco being found with Egyptian mummies. Can you tell me which tombs or who found it? It doesn't seem plausible to me.

I think you guys have covered it, in my mind anyway. Sea levels were much lower during the last ice age and much more of the earths land mass was exposed. There may have been several ice dams, one at the gibraltar straight, which would have held back the atlantic and the whole mediteranean sea area would be dry. Another at the straights of bospherus, which would have the whole black sea area dry. Sea levels rise world wide, the water breaks through the ice dams, and thus a world wide flood myth is born.

http://www.forteantimes.com/articles/117_toke.shtml
Here is an article about the egyptians.
No "scientist" wants to ask the question "how ?" ,they even try to make it look like a false discovery.

Yeah, we've got an unrepeated experiment that's not accepted by the experts with no verification in the historical record. The Egyptians wrote about EVERYTHING. They were one of the first societies of scribes. I find it impossible to believe that they would have recorded mundane details like pay scales and recipes but somehow forget to mention the pan-global civilization that they did business with. This isn't proof - it might be with more work, but it's not proof.

And scientists get paid to ask "how" along with "why".

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It was the height of the Ice Age, when sea levels were 400 feet lower than today, and there was a lot more land to go around.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/warnings/waterworld/

Scientists are no longer listened to, and lose their jobs, when they talk "nonsense". One of the first who talked such things was Copernicus
It was not a single experiment there were many. I found out about it from a documentary on Discovery channel, now I searched and found that link

Or the current regime in power, just pays the scientists to say what they want. You dont have to be a scientist to see whats going on, just open your eyes and look around.:oogle:

In all seriousness, does this thread belong in Paranoia? I'm starting to get that sense, but I'm certainly willing to listen to counterarguements (see how I'm not a part of the establishment?).

The fact that none of my friends who work at the Field Museum make these kinds of complaints or accusations leads me to believe that Paranoia may be a better place for this discussion.

Jazz, it has the potential for Paranoia, but in truth the geologic record in the Middle East documents a "great flood" in the region that would coincide with theologic estimates of when the flood occured. Given that Judiac history could only consider the extent of their travels, a world flood is merely an assumption on our part. Scientific investigation has proven that there was a great flood in the region.

My two cents worth :)

I think that would be like stating the god debate threads needs to go in paranoia

ie...I dont agree

If I remember correctly, the original creation myths (including Christianity) are all based on the idea of a world of water from which land rises.

The idea of the flood suggests a new beginning.

In Christianity the flood is the second covenant with God (i.e. Hey Noah... I kind of screwed up with humanity. I need a do over. I like you though and I like my animals. Here's the deal, you save the animals in and you get to be my chosen one. Deal?"

They then "high five" and Noah asks "what is a cubit?" :)

:lol: beautiful.

"Riiiiight"

To clarify, my thoughts about whether to move this thread or not didn't come from the religious aspect of the conversation but rather from the "scientists afraid to speak" portion - Egyptian tobacco, humans in Pangaea, universal flood, etc. In my experience, it's difficult to mix faith and science in an intelligent and mature manner.

We'll see where this takes us.

A Bill Cosby great, doncha think? :thumbsup:

...And people deny there being a distinct anti-Christian air to TFP.

There's nothing anti-Christian in here. Do you have anything to add about the flood myths? Or maybe you're just in here out of anti-atheist resentment?

It's entirely possible that the flood myths are real, and it's entirely possible that they're not. I remember reading somewhere that they (scientists? historians? dunno) theorize that the Atlantian Empire fell because of a massive tectonic plate shifting. I don't think there is really any evidence to support it, but a global flood could also explain it seeing as they were said to be sea-faring (thus many of their largest cities would be near sea level). Actually, the global flood could have been caused if there was a tectonic shift that moved a pole closer to the equator. The sudden melt would raise sea levels quickly, and also dump millions of gallons of fresh waters into the sea, killing of many fish and lowering the global temperature.

Its not just Christianity, its anything that doesnt have a plausible scientific explanation. This really stifles the creativity of this board, very closed minded, and not even open to the realm of new possibilities. Unless they're scientificly plausible. Sad really...

Yeah that Tilted Literature section is 100% non-fiction. :orly: How about you stop threadjacking? This is about the plausibility of the flood, not the frustrations of the supposedly oppressed Christian minority.

Please Will, continue with your flood discussion....I was simply commenting on a post in this thread. Is that alright???

1. People tell stories about things around them.

2. Many stories are embellished (myths)

3. Floods are common in many parts of the world.

That's how I see it, anyway. I don't see any reason, unless there's legitimate scientific evidence, to even suspect a world wide flood.

No one here has said a single thing against Christians. In fact the opening post mentioned various flood myths, not simply the Judeo-Christian version. So the thread itself isn't even necessarily a "Christian" thread if you must apply a label. The thread exists to discuss various world wide flood myths. That is the only thing I see happening here. Just because someone doesn't believe the way you do doesn't make them "anti-Christian." I don't believe in Shiva, but I'm not "anti-Hindu." I simply have a differing world view. I can respect their beliefs while still engaging them in debate.

We have an entire Paranoia Forum dedicated to discussing things that "don't have a plausible scientific explanation."

*Brings your attention to posts number 15, 16 and 17*

I just thought I'd point that out, as you seemed to miss it. I suppose people don't see it because, typically, one is blinded to that which they actively participate in.

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I understand that, but the flood myths arent paranoia(in my mind), and neither is a galactic alignment, with cultural myths associated with it. Its the overall method of response that sometimes bothers me. Members whose views, opinions, or beliefs are not that of the majority, often are subtly ridiculed by others. I have suggested that members state their own opinions without attacking those of another, but many enjoy their ability to proselytize unabated by moderation.

Shame on some of us for requiring reasonable evidence. How dare we?

Paranoia is probably not the best name for that forum, but I can't think of anything better. I would agree that the flood myths don't really belong there, seeing as how there is physical evidence of some large floods which those stories are probably based off of. That said, there is no evidence whatsoever for a worldwide flood.

As for galactic alignment having some metaphysical meaning or even physical effect leading to an end-of-the-world scenario or any other similar prophecy...that is exactly the type of thing Tilted Paranoia was created to discuss. Like I said, it's probably not the best name for the forum, but "Tilted There-is-no-scientific-or-logical-reason-to-believe-this-to-be-true-but-I-want-to-discuss-whether-it-may-be-anyway" is just a bit cumbersome. If you have recommendations, feel free to PM them to me and I will seriously consider them.

As for members ridiculing others, please use the report post link when you feel that is the case (not when someone says something which may offend someone, but when someone says something that is genuinely attacking another member). Reporting posts sends an e-mail to all the moderators and calls more people to look at the situation and make a decision about it. That said, I personally don't see anything wrong with someone telling another person that what they are saying makes absolutely no sense using the well-established and proven methods we, as a civilization, have for determining what is likely to be true.

Infinite, we participated in a little back and forth in humor. It is allowed in my relationship with my higher being.

Did you read Post #13?:rolleyes:

I think you're off topic Will, better watch that thread hijacking....:)

I always wondered why people wore those pants.

::sigh:: Once again, there is scientific, geologic evidence of a "great flood" in the area of the Middle East that coincides with the theologic estimation of the event, based upon the historical references of the time.

It happened. We are free to ascribe any meaning we wish to, but the great flood did happen.

Very interesting thread. I enjoy reading these types of things.

I'm going to have to go with "You're missing the crux of the insult" but, as I stated, people are typically blind to that which they actively participate in, so I'm just preaching to the proverbial choir. I'll just keep this in mind for future reference ;)

Oh, I don't believe in the number 13. Therefore, I ignore anything that corresponds to it.

I did not open this thread to prove the bible wrong. I am not an atheist, I am more into buddhism. The existance of all the other flood myths only proves that the one in the bible is true.
I believe there was a global flood, and it happened fast, that is why all the myths tell about boats and very few survivors. What else could have caused all the myths ?
I wrote about the egyptians and tobacco just to show that history could be inaccurate. 10000 years ago they say we were living in caves. But the earth is very old, look how far we got in just 10000 years.
Also there are traces of nuclear explosions in ancient India and they also have a poem about them. Troy was just a fantasy story until someone decided to go digg it up.

http://s8int.com/atomic1.html


New theory of mine :
10000 years ago or earlyer there were some advanced civilizations, and they were destroyed by some flood, not all the people on earth experienced it, then the flood myths appeared. Simple :)

As the poster of #15 I have to ask if you have a sense of humour or is this just a blind spot when it comes to your belief system. Seriously.

I believe politicophile summed up the three posts perfectly.

Since many of us "anti-Christian" types seem to have missed the "crux" of the insult perhaps you would care to point out where there was an insult because I can't seem to find one.

Back to the thread itself... my point was that many creation myths start with a world of water. It is held by biblical scholars that the creation myth in Genesis rises from other creation myths that precede it.

I am speculating that The Flood myth, which in the Bible represents the second covenant with God (the first being with Adam, the third with Abraham and the final with Noah) represents God, starting things over. Blank slate (with some notable exceptions).

While there is some debate amongst scholars, it is felt that the Bible is all myth and etiologies until it gets to the book of Joshua (some feel it should go as far back as Deuteronomy). To me, there is no need to be a literalist when it comes to the Torah or the Pentateuch (the first five books). The symbolism is there in the writing. Do you really need to believe that there was a Noah or Adam and Eve or a tower of babel, etc? And if so why?

To me they are great myths that we tell ourselves. There are great lessons to be learned and, frankly, the foundation of western civilization's moral and judicial code stems from them.

If you are offended by this take on things, all I can suggest is that you need to believe in your religion a little bit harder. Because, what I am writing is hardly new and it is hardly faith shaking.