Goddammned Nazi's marching on my town
 

I am a resident of Columbia MO, and recently learned that on Saturday, the National Socialist Movement will be marching on the local university

This sucks- I own a WEAPONS shop (swords and knives mainly, no guns) - so if things go badly, then I fear I may be a target for looting, etc- also, my wares could attract them- and I will not serve @#&*! nazi's- We plan to post a sign about refusing service, but it still does not make me feel comfortable......

Anyone else on the board to deal with something like this- and anyone got some suggestions- anyone had to deal with skinheads before?

My grandfather dealt with Nazi's with an M1 Garand.

The sign might attract them.... hard to say what might happen tho....

Jonathan

Why, oh why, do they call themselves socialist?

You've got weapons, and I'm sure you know how to use them. Be sure your shop is fortified from light gunfire and simply hang out in the back.

I'd like to go down to the university with a sign that reads, "The Jews Won".

well I haven't marched with them obviously but I've covered them enough. They're VERY VERY interested in things not turning violent. They're even more interested in making the other side the one that starts the violence if it has to happen. There's a new strategy with these guys, and with the various KKK branches out there. "Let's try to be reasonable racists. We're just here to express our opinion," etc etc etc.

The good news is that unless anti-racist groups start trouble, there generally isn't any trouble at a NSM/KKK rally. The bad news is that some idiot might actually believe them when they say they're reasonable racists.

As to your event, I monitor the various white power idiot boards so I can keep tabs on our local racists. It doesn't look like the idiots at Stormfront, which is one of the larger racist groups, even know about this rally, so it should be relatively small. To give you an idea, the last huge rally I covered was advertised all over everywhere, including Stormfront, and 7 marchers showed up ;)

Funny they should march on the university - - seems they're pissed off at the journalism school because gee, seems there aren't any white supremacist journalists graduating from that particular institution, and what a travesty to the Fourth Estate that is ;)

The location could actually spark your trouble, because college kids just LOVE antagonizing racists.

I would definitely NOT post that sign. Frankly were I you I'd just close the shop for the 5 hours the march is going on - especially if you're within a 10 block radius of campus. You probably won't sell much, and posting a sign like that might antagonize an idiot.

suprisingly, the city is encouraging buisinesses to post a sign, as to closing, I do not want to leave my shop unattended- I worked for years to get it, and will not let it get looted- as it happens one of my close associates, a cop, will be hanging out there with me- and a few friends of ours as well.... doubt that we will be to busy either, but the other businesses in my building will be open, so if nothing else, we can play cards.....

~~

just close for the day, take the day to do inventory so your on the premises. no matter how big of douches they are, they have the right to march.

These idiots have the right to march, but you have the right to close your shop and stay away from their march. Do all you can to close your shop - put up all the shutters and protections you can to keep them from breaking into your shop - that includes taking down all signs you have that advertise that you have fire arms. I'm sure they won't want to stir up trouble, but you never know, do you?

KEEP THE INTEGRITY OF YOUR SHOP SURE! When the march is said and done, your shop will still be there, not having supported their crap. That will keep you in repeat business....

Your Cop friend is not called Zed is he?

"Fetch the Gimp!". ;)

Try and think of something TO SELL to either the nazis, the public who comes to support them, the public who comes to oppose them, and preferably anyone involved with the gathering. Something like buttons, bumperstickers, drinks, medals, toys, candy, laserguns, lightsabres...or something with a slogan on it, personalized to the event and/or city. Laugh and mock them all the way to the bank. Show them real freedom, show them real power, expose their idiocy: show them the American Way.

You got my coke sprayed all over my screen and keyboard for that comment. LMAO!!

Carno...I love that reply. :thumbsup:

Fire, I'm gonna have to follow the herd here, and say put up a "Closed" sign. Be on site, if you want. But, I can't imagine that any sales that you make, during that narrow window, will be worth the risk. Unless, of course, you want to make a statement, by remaining open. I can see that, too.

You know.... It's easy for me to say from all the way over here with no personal or financial stake in the matter. But I hate to see assholes like this have the power to close up even a single honest merchant for the day. It's like a western movie when the bad guys ride into town and everybody holes up. These guys are closing you down with just the threat of their presence. That's terrorism, right there.

I don't know if powerclown's suggestion is the wisest in terms of safety, but I certainly like it best in terms of attitude.

Having your cop buddy on hand (especially if he's in uniform) would be very helpful no matter what you do, I think.

The best way to protest is act however you would have acted without a march going on...

Is the march in a "bad" neighborhood? The riots that started in in Toledo were started by the people mad that the Nazi's were there. There were like 12 Nazi's, and they were marching to protest the treatment of the whites (I guess that's the best term) in the neighborhood. All hell broke out, the cops stepped in too late, several businesses were torched and looted. Unless you are right near (within a block or two) of the march, I wouldn't be too worried. But closing for the day, but being there is a good idea.

Well, if it were me, I would have some sort of "private" sale going on during the day...easy to refuse service, no explanations necessary. Then I'd throw a party for me and my knife- and gun-wielding friends. I'd watch Cohen Brothers movies and Richard Pryor standup routines. I'd make any normal sales at my "private" sale.

It seems to me that the biggest threat is not from the Nazis but from people using the march as an excuse to loot. If you and your friend decide to stay then you should probably be equipped with shotguns to let the looters know that there are easier targets and that looting your store is too dangerous for them. If you decide to close and leave then perhaps you can store the weapons you sell off site for a day.

Yours, and a lot of our Grandfathers fought and died for a county where a Nazi parade is possible. And that is a great thing! We are a country born on dissension and doubt, and freedom to express whatever the hell we want to. Be that Nazism, Christian, Voodoo, Socialist, or Judaism.

I am not saying go outside and cheer for the Nazis, but don't be overtly harsh either. Freedom cannot be so without Nazis marching down main street.

"I disagree with what you have to say but will fight to the death to protect your right to say it." (some attribute this to Voltaire, but it isn't)

What in the hell are you talking about?

He's saying that your grandfather's actions don't apply to this situation because the Nazis concerned are Americans and therefore have every right to say what they want.

Did I say my grandfather's actions applied?

Probably the smartest idea I've heard in a while, very clever :)

That was a rather rude reply, don't you think? It's pretty obvious what he's saying. Read it again.

There were some nazis who tried to march on my state capital back when i was in high school - probably ten years ago. A group of local ARA members met them with rocks and sticks and chased them off.

We haven't had any nazi marches since.

I don't necessarily advocate violence, but sometimes it works.

For a few years my friends and I would play a game of football every summer with the local neo-Nazi Skinheads... We always won.

It was our way of showing each other that no matter what the other believed in... we could all still get along.

WK, awesome post. One of the best I've seen. Very well illustrated.

That was the point I am trying to get across. Maybe I can put it in words that more people can understand:

I don't give a shit what you think, what you do, or what you believe, as long as you grant me the same right.

Does this condone the ideas and ideals of Nazis? Yes and no. Yes as in 'hate whomever you would like', No as in act on it in a violent or damaging way and you lose that right.

Exactly... Hating someone just because they hate someone else makes you no better then they are.

Saying that you don't want them in your town because you're afraid there will be looting and because you own a weapons shop that you will be targeted is being just as closed-minded as they are.

Hate is the same... no matter where it comes from.

I understood it perfectly well the first time, thanks.

What I don't understand is why he seems to think that my comment about the M1 Garand meant that I think we should kill all people who don't think the way I do.

And I also think it's easy to talk about dying to defend freedoms from the comfort of your house. Talk is cheap.

Whoa there. Down boy.

As I recall, Crack served his country, in the U.S. Air Force. Now...from what I see...he didn't die. But, he served, none the less. So, let's all just sit back down, and resume our conversation.

The KKK march that I observed in Dallas went exactly as Shakran described. A paltry few of the Klan showed up and were outnumbered 50:1 by an outraged group there to meet them. The sole purpose of these rallies is to get media attention and it seems to succeed every time.

Fire, unless you have good reason to be concerned based on past experience, I would suggest to carry on as usual. There will be police there to keep things from getting out of hand.

Be there, Fire. Pretend it's business as usual, since it probably will be. Skinheads (whatever-the-hell they are) have less power than they aspire to and are unlikely to get it. Stand your ground!

Yeah, I don't see it that way- because if you were Jewish, or any one of several other numerous nationalities/religions/colors OTHER than white, they would hate you- you would not be playing games with them. They would be hating the very core of you for simply existing.

If people followed the "I shouldn't hate them because they hate someone else, not me, it's none of my business" theory, most all of Europe would be named Germany right now and America would likely be trading slaves with them. Oh, Hitler hates someone else, not me, so I don't care; The south hates black people? Well, they don't hate me so I don't care who they hate, we can still be chums.

I don't find it at all acceptable to find another's hatred ok simply because that hatred doesn't extend to you.

So...it's wrong to hate.

But...

It's ok to hate the hater.

as long as...

You're hating the hater for hating.

Right?

Wait, it's not that hating is ok, it's that they have the right to hate.

The difference is that Hitler was killing the people he hated. This people are simply marching. There is no reason to hate someone that is expressing their beliefs in a non-violent way.

because when they took power they nationalized many industries. They are just communists under a different banner.

is this thread really worth staying open?

c'mon, people, you're discussing the philosophy of hate...

Even though what they stand for is genocide and racism, both of which being very violent causes in themselves?

If I stood on the street corner with a smile on my face and just as peaceful as can be, with a sign that says, "I like to kill kittens and babies, and rape teenage girls", you're saying it's unreasonable for people to feel hatred for me?

America; the place where you can think and say whatever you want, but not act on it.

Personally, I'd try to talk with them and learn more about them. If they came into my shop, I'd consider it part of the "background check." Racists are people, too.

They could just post a "I hate < insert what you hate > challenge on youtube, obviously far more people would see it

No, I can easily picture that freedom. It's the one where all the former Nazis get a little more enlightened and choose a less hateful philosophy.

Nice way to shift the perspective of the thread... but I still think it's a valid thing to say I hate somebody for something they CHOOSE to do or think and this separates me from people who hate others for things they have absolutely no control over. You could say that nazis are just too weak as individuals to get over the hatred that's been fed to them, but I think that that kind of change is still possible. Certainly you can see how 'a nazi should try harder not to hate' and 'a black person should try harder not to be black' are not comparable ideas.

I think WK's story is neat and all, but it would be naive to say that that attitude would have the same potentially world-changing effect as, say, a general paradigm change where it's no longer okay among any circle to hate on people for things that are unalterably part of their identity. Here's my general rule of thumb: (1) Is an attitude universally useable, and (2) would universal use probably lead to positive change? The attitude demonstrated in WK's story already fails at the first part of the question, though it may have some superficial success at the second half. Most skinheads certainly wouldn't play football with me.

BUT, that's not to say that it isn't a perfectly desirable attitude to have compared to one where he just throws down with anybody who disagrees with him and it escalates to fisticuffs all willy nilly.

I think it's important to note the difference between hating another group, and expressing a lack of approval of their message. here's the thing: i don't really agree with the whole nazi viewpoint. sure, i wear my hair pretty short, but that's about as far as i can get on board with their message. so i feel pretty ok with expressing that to them; to wit, basically: fuck them. i don't really feel an overwhelming desire to have a little time out with them, so i can delve into their minds and figure out how they tick. i don't care how they tick. fuck them. that doesn't mean i'm going to chase them with big sticks or set them on fire: this is america for fuck's sake. if you can't say stupid shit here, where can you say it? i mean, shit - you're reading this post. but if they get to parade around in their little combat boot / fatigue / swastika get up, i also get to tell them to fuck the fuck right off. why in the world would i want to treat them as though they were some sort of relatively benign group who was just advocating for the increased use of hair nets or something?

they're not. they're a bunch of racist fuckers who jack off talking about gassing jews and lynching black people. that's not some acceptable shit that i'll just chalk up to a difference of opinion.

:expressionless:

My point was that my original post was just a joke. Nothing for anyone to get their panties in a bunch about.

Well Said sir pigglet- basicly how I feel


as to the store we will be staying open- I will be damned if a bunch of Gaddamned Nazi's are gonna cause me not to be open for the day- My concern comes from the fact that these peoiple do not just spout hate- they advocate violence, and have shown willingness to follow through- A bunch of my friends will be at the shop, and we plan to while away the day playing cards and hanging out- granted, we will have a few firearms and assorted weapons on hand, but then what is a gathering of friends without some firepower.. Most likely not a damn thing will happen, but we have prepared for contingencies- sadly, the local NAACP chapter plans to "confront" the nazi's- which is what the bastards want..........I will let you all know what else develops.........

I don't really know why these groups bother to march, except perhaps to drive home the fact that they do indeed have the right to. But, as far as I can tell, people love to hate these groups (and with pretty good cause) and show up to these marches simply to jeer them.
I can't picture this type of publicity getting them any new members or making them any more favorable in the public eye. Seems like hate groups like these flourish more in the dark little corners.

It happens every time and it only gives them the media attention they hope for.

Good on you, Fire. This nonsense shouldn't alter how you run your business.:thumbsup:

You cant learn anything about someone if you shun them. Racists are people, too.

Back arrow. :no:

Racists aren't protected under the constitution though, it says so right..... ummm.. here... no..... uhh here.... errrmmmm I'll get back to you on this.

I suppose that it's too late to implore them not to come? If they do go, with the full on intent of "confronting" the Nazi's, then they're reducing themselves to the role of "pawn", in the Nazi's little game.

Wouldn't it just be the funniest of shit if absolutely no one...not a single solitary person...showed up. No XYZ group staging a counter protest. No member of the media. No college kids trying to showcase their manliness and moral superiority by taunting the Nazi's. What if the day were allowed to proceed just as any other Saturday in Columbia, MO? Wouldn't that be great? Thinking about it...to do anything else, just demonstrates that we actually care what they have to say.

Oh...and Fire? Good on you for proceeding with your day. Go ahead and open up shop. Do not let them make a difference. Just...keep an extra eye out...ok?

Hal,

You're probably right about that, at least in terms of gaining certain types of knowledge. But that presupposes a desire to learn something about racists / Nazis. I really feel like I pretty much know everything about them I care to. At this point, I'd prefer to deal with them like a bad kid. Put their asses in time out until until they change their behavior. They're just not worth my time. As I said earlier: Fuck them. Fuck them right in the ear.

I think a lot of the counter-demonstrators feel the same way and sometimes use it as an excuse to loot the local stores. I think the looters deserve our disgust more than the Nazis.

Sure they deserve disgust, but I'm not sure anyone group deserves it more than the other.

flstf, well, i certainly hope they feel that way...after all, that's the right way to feel :) seriously, i don't advocate looting by anti-demonstration protestors at all, in any way shape or form. but that's a separate issue, as i don't condone looting, breaking and entering, non-creative vandalism (have to admit i've seen some pretty sweet graffiti) and so forth, regardless of the emotional impetus to do so.

Half of Youtube will agree with them. Nobody would take it seriously, anyway. They want people to overreact so they get the national media attention, anyway.

That's completely backwards. These nazis aren't violent, therefore they have the same right to demonstrate that everyone else does. Our grandfathers fought to protect our freedom from a fascist government who did not recognize this right.

You can't expect someone whose core philosophy is irrational to act rationally.

good luck fire.

The philosophies expressed here become awkward and strained when "Freaknik" (whose heyday was in the 1990s in Atlanta) is substituted for "Nazi."

Well- Its over- the nazi's came- and there were some fights, and "disturbances" but no riots, and the bastards left after about 30 minutes- They discovered that the reception was not welcoming, at all, and that the people there werent dumb enough to fight the cops, or each other, but were very willing to beat on some nazi's- BTW to everyone above, it should be noted that these guys were a concern because they do not advocate nonviolent protests- they openly state that they want to confront and "battle" with anyone that opposes them- despite the retoric, they backed down and went home when they saw that the streets were lined with anti- nazi's and police- some of the nazi's got a bit roughed up and almost all of their banners and signs were torn from their hands and ripped up along the march route- the cops had too much to do to stop the protesters that were attacking inanimate objects- basicly everyone from the gay pride coalition to the outlaws biker gang was there to "welcome " hitlers boys, and they were universally pissed at them for comming around-

For those who are interested in such things, heres a play by play of what happened from my POV

10am- arrived at store with bag full of guns- positioned said in pre-determined places (away from customers but accessable to myself and my backup) and strap a pistol tp my hip
10:15 - First of special detail security team arrives- I often do part time work for a local high risk security firm, and allow them to use my shop as a staging area for events downtown, Its convienient for them as I have a very large backroom that is mostly empty at the moment, and I get the benefit of very noticable armed men standing around- the security guys were hired today by a local bar to, in the words of the manager of said bar, "keep the skinheads out" the bar is right along the nazi's parade route- Incidentally, Team member one, whom we will call " teacup" is a certified police instructor, firearms trainer, and martial arts instructor....Teacup leaves me a Mossberg 590 and a pistol "just in case" (If things go terribly wrong my store is also the fallback location)

10:20 the first skinheads of the day arrive at my door- They attempt to enter despite the fact that the door is locked, the signs (there are two) say closed, and the lights are out- after pushing inefectually at the door they notice the 10" by 20" bright yellow sign on the door directly in front of them that says "NO HATE IN OUR TOWN" in large black letters- they talk angerly amongst themselves and wander off toward the protest.......

10:30 am The second team member, whom we will call Tac, arrives. Tac is a deputy sherif from a neighboring county, which down there is a part time thing, so he also works as a full time paramedic- this combo made him sought after for his counties meth lab busting squad, which he enjoys being on as it is "fun" his skills are also nice to have in the security biz... tac leaves another, amazingly similar to the first one mossberg 590, a .308 assault rifle, and two kevlar vests, with trauma plates, along with a bag completely full of ammo and a med kit ( did I mention that these guys do not fuck around)

10:35- Tac and teacup suit up- this involves kevlar, knives, guns, tazers, pepper spray, and about 25 minutes time

11:00- I open the store and K-9, the third team member arrives suited up, with his german shepherd (hence the name) k-9 will be in the companies SUV, and as he owns the firm will liason with the LEO on the scene. At this point, downtown is packed, and does not look at all like the "ghost town " that civic leaders wanted.... potentially, we all agree, that could be bad.

11:30- Security team leaves for the bar- they promise to call me with updates and info especially if things get nasty

11:55- My friend the cop arrives- we will call him boots- he drops his riot gear in the back alongside the arsenal...along with boots came another friend of mine, a very large, very nordic man we will call the Dane- I loan the dane a gun and holster-

12:00 boots sets his police radio on the counter and turns it on- there are police, sherrif's deputies, highway patroll, and cops from severall surrounding counties here to provide "an overwhelming police pressence" about this time teacup calls to state that downtown is full of angry people, and that a few of them have obviously been drinking....

12:15 another of my backup crew arrives, we will call him the turk- he has the least training of us all, and no experience with this kind of thing- we do not give him a gun. He is however, competent with a hatchet and club, so I give him a hatchet - he brought his own club, a 15 pound monstrosity of welded steel, sort of like a flanged mace.......



1:00 radio says the nazis are here, and are in the parking garage that the march is supposed to start at- the first arrest is reported- of someone that was threatening the nazi's... a highway patroll helicopter circles downtown, while we listen to the snipers on the rooftops reporting in on the radio....

1:05 the nazi's start- they are almost immediatly confronted by protesters, and quite a few are roughed up- more arrests happen, and one police officer is assaulted, apparently by a drunk

1:20 by this point the nazi's are in real danger of being mobbed- sherrifs deputies have to march with them to hold back the crowd- Missouri clearly does not like their kind around here- teacup calls to say that its getting rough where they are, a few blocks away- but where i am it is buisiness as usual, and lots of normal people come in to buy stuff- many compliment me on my NO HATE sign- not one reacts negatively to the fact that several people are wearing guns, one seems to notice mine, pauses, says "oh yeah, the nazis" and pays for his items.... Thankfully, no trouble at the store, no skinheads at all since the early morning ones.....

1:30 Nazis give up on trying to march past the journalism school, due to severe resistance, and the fact that the cops clearly do not want to protect them- despite this the cops pepper spray some protesters, and, accidentally, a nearby reporter (later it appears that everyone sprayed has, amazingly, no hard feelings toward the cops- even the reporter is ok with it) at this time, all

1:36 nazi's return to parking garage and begin to leave- a police officer comes over the radio with the statement that the out of town group is leaving, but that there are still some "free range nazi's " left downtown continues to be rowdy near the march site, but at my store it is just like any other pleasant spring day.......

2:00 its over, except for the after parties....buisiness is brisk, and people are polite and for the most part happy

from this point my day is like any other untill about closing (at 5:00)
at that point the security team returns, gathers their gear, and fills me in on their day- Teacup had to throw a skinhead over a railing, but beyond some shoving, that was it for them- they did put on their riot gear during the worst of it, on the advice of a Highway patrollman-

Overall, I have mixed feelings- It could have been worse because of it, but some part of me is happy with the nazi's getting so harrassed- and the fact that the harrassers stuck to going against the nazi's and not the cops or each other...and my store was hurt not a bit by it, I did not suffer financially, and no one threw anything through my window because of the NO HATE sign, a concern that many had- I am glad I took a stand and stayed open, in fact many of my patrons were supportive of that- But I hate to see the skinheads get any publicity, and they did get a lot........

That's a heartwarming image, Fire. It's nice to know that apathy hasn't completely enveloped everyone yet.

Rock. Sounds like you and your crew handled things perfectly and, thankfully, none of the hardware was needed. In such a circumstance, I imagine that many of your customers wer probably quite glad to see the firepower in evidence.

I think I might throw up.
Glad to "hear" you went to work, Fire!

So the most violent people weren't even the "nazi's".

Condoning violence, against people who appear to stand for violence.

I'll never figure some ideals out I think.



Thinking back, don't you think there was a better way for your town to respond to this incident?

Not you personally, but the entire idea seems a bit hypocritical to me, basically they were violently forced to leave, because the town is disgusted by their violent beliefs.

Even ghandi said that nonviolence only works to a point- and some things should be fought with every drop of blood we have..........

Certain things should be aberant and abhored by any society- Note that I welcome anyone having their own beliefs- as long as their beliefs do not include harming someone else based on arbitrary traits or because of purely selfish motives- In a nutshell, and for example, it is wrong to hate someone for their skin color, or religion, or sexual preference, or political party and a whole lot of other things- UNTILL they choose to advocate hurting others as part of their doctrin - For example, hating muslims is wrong, but hating muslims that use their religion as an excuse to blow up a synagog is OK- Hating n.a.m.b.l.a. members seems OK, because they advocate child rape.... and the nazi party advocates murder........so I tend to feel justified hating them..... If the nazi's wanted to hold their rallies on private land, OK fine with me- but when they go to other towns (and ALL of the marchers were from out of state) and attempt to instigate violence and property destruction because our town is too "liberal" for their taste, then i expect that they deserve what they got, and much more.
I agree that we should be wary of a slippery slope, and where I draw the line on white supremecists is essentially at the point that they go from being in favor of their heritage, and of supporting their own culture, to the point of advocating the violent extermination of anyone not white- which this group does. The question of who's opinions are valid has always been with us, and I guess that where I personally feel the line should be is if you advocate killing me and my friends, then it means that I will tend to respond in kind (and according to the NSM website, as I have american indian blood, and my wife has ancestors waaay back there that were jewish, we are both slated for "forceble deportation" or death if we refuse )