Modern Day Slavery In Cambodia - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Sweetpea · 02-24-2007, 12:54 PM

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y26...dia_200702.jpg
(Links to an image of underage girl referenced in the Article)

02/19/2007

By Janet Root, Assistant Web Editor
Contributing Writer: Chamnap Nay, Cambodia Communications

Quote:

It's shocking to realize. This small, round-cheeked 14-year-old in the pale, pink sleeveless top (we will call her An, though her real name must be withheld to protect her privacy) could be a poster child for modern-day slavery.

Sold by her aunt and brutally raped by a sex predator, An’s experience parallels that of the approximately 2 million children in the world today enslaved in the global sex trade.

"I Thought He'd Kill Me!"

Last year, An recalls, she was invited to visit her aunt's house a few miles from the home she shared with her grandparents in Phnom Penh. During the visit, An's aunt asked her to walk with her to see a friend.

When they arrived at an abandoned house, "My auntie told me that it was her friend’s house," she says. Claiming she needed to go shopping, the older woman told her niece to wait.

"My auntie promised to return, but [hours] later a man with a long beard came rushing toward me. He was very big, and when he pushed me, I had no energy to defend myself." When the man began to rip her clothes, she said "I thought he'd kill me. I wanted to call out … but could not shout."

An was brutally raped three times that night. It was just the beginning of a horrific siege of abuse. "I was imprisoned in that house," she explains. "The man kept doing the same thing to me every night. During the daytime, my legs, arms, and mouth were tied.”

How could a relative sell her own flesh and blood to a sex predator?

Exploitation's Origins

There are no easy answers. But we do know that poverty makes children more susceptible to exploitation. Cambodians are among the world's poorest people; around a third of the population live on less than a $1 a day, and the vast majority go without electricity or running water. In this deeply impoverished Southeast Asian nation, the asking price for a child's body is $50 to $800.
While most of the men who abuse children in the country are local Cambodians, foreigners from wealthy countries searching for sex with children fuel an increased demand for young victims. Traffickers and brothel owners quickly service the demand. So-called sex tourists come to Cambodia, where they know they'll find impoverished, hence vulnerable, children; low-cost prostitution, anonymity, and a likely escape from prosecution.

The result of this toxic equation? An estimated one-third of prostitutes in Cambodia are children. Like An, these youths typically have been abuducted, lured, or deceived into sexual slavery — many of them sold to brothels.

Cambodia's government took a promising step to reduce child trafficking five years ago, forming the anti-human trafficking and juvenile protection department. Arrests and prosecutions have increased since then. However, justice for abused children is limited because legal enforcement is lacking.

As part of World Vision's commitment to protecting children, we are addressing this issue. We've joined forces with national governments, U.S. law enforcement agencies, and other organizations to combat child sex tourism through the Child Sex Tourism Prevention Project — a program that has proven effective in Cambodia, as well as Thailand, Costa Rica, and the U.S.

"I Was No Longer a Good Girl"

An's physical torment ended one humid, hot afternoon, two months after her ordeal had begun. Her rapist rushed breathlessly into the abandoned house where she had been imprisoned. "He untied my legs and arms and gave me $10 to leave. I jumped up and ran to find a taxi to take me home."
After telling her story to her grandparents, her grandmother cried, An says, adding: "I thought I was no longer a good girl for having my virginity taken away from me."

"Child in Crisis Partners"
Hearing of the small girl's tragic ordeal, one of An's neighbors suggested taking her to the Neavea Thmey Center. A sexual trauma recovery facility operated by World Vision, it is supported by donors who participate in our "Child in Crisis Partners" program.

World Vision's Trauma Recovery Center: Neavea Thmey

Neavea Thmey, which means “new ship” in Khmer, infers the new journey girls embark upon in recovering from sexual abuse. In this protective, nurturing center, girls aged 8 to 18 are supported in a peer environment
Most girls' stay in the center is for a period of six to 12 months before starting their new life. More than 700 girls have been assisted by the Neavea Thmey Center since it opened in 1997.
"Like Entering Heaven"

"After arriving at the center, I felt like I was [entering] heaven … just day[s] before, I was imprisoned in a dark room with my legs and arms tied and had nothing to eat," An explains.
Staff at Neavea Thmey helped An to file a local police report about her abuse, but as is too often the case, An's aunt and the offender had already slipped away.
During the six months she stayed at the center, An made many friends. "The center staff loved me and took care of me like their own daughter," she adds.
In addition, she learned new skills. "I found it enjoyable to learn new skills at the center, especially hairdressing.” An also learned to read and write basic Khmer and English.
Educational opportunities are one of the best means to alleviate poverty, which puts young people like An at risk of being exploited.

New Beginnings
Since completing her stay at the Trauma Recovery Center, World Vision staff members have continued to follow up on An’s progress. They've also provided her and her family with a bicycle, food supplements, and two months of rent and school expenses so An has a head-start on her education, something the family could not afford before.
"I want to learn more," An concludes, "so I can qualify to work for a big company or start my own business."

I can't say I was shocked by this, but I am propelled to post it here since
Awareness is the key to addressing any issue. Exploiting children is an issue that is just not acceptable.
Poverty and exploitation of children and women is a real thing that is occuring with millions all around the world.

Things you can do:

Advocate
Donate time or $$ to organizations that tackle this issue (WorldVision is just one of many)
Report an American sex trade tourist (sex with minors is illegal even in other countries)

Your Thoughts and opinions??

jorgelito · 02-24-2007, 06:41 PM

You have a good heart Sweet Pea, but unfortunately, people just don't care or have reached their capacity to care. Cambodia and many other poor, SE Asian countries, and especially African countries are complete debacles of humanity, yet most people (West, industrialized) remain unmoved. There is some speculation that the reasons are because they fail to identify with the "victims", cannot sympathize due to the fact that there are just way too many tragedies and atrocities in the world (desensitization, over stimulation), or simply do not care.

Willravel · 02-24-2007, 08:12 PM

Oh my god....I feel sick. Raping children is possibly the most dark and horrible thing a person can do, and it speaks in volumes about the state of the country. One third of prostitutes in Cambodia are children...christ.

My first thought is on how to fix this: the Cambodian economy needs a boom quick. How do they do that? NO MORE CIVIL WARS. As an American, I feel partially responsible for what's going on there. Things like Operation Menu are a big part of what was to blame for the civil wars. Now they still are dealing with heavy corruption in the government and the result is that the countryside has no infrastructure. Australia helped quite a bit when the financed the IRRI (International Rice Research Institute) to help Cambodia become self-sufficient in rice production.

If you want hope, then this article might help you out. It's absolutely inspiring and shows that commonality and sympathy really do exist in the world.

Quote:

U.S. Teens Share Education With Kids in Cambodia
Students at Overlake School Raise $15,000 to Finance School in Rural Area
School

Class is in session at a new school in Cambodia thanks to the hard work of a group of U.S. students.

By MARK LITKE

PAILIN, Cambodia, Feb. 1, 2007 — In an extremely poor town in Cambodia, children are being robbed of their childhood by poverty, illiteracy, sex trafficking and AIDS.

Yet, down one dirt road, lines of neatly dressed children are now marching into a school with new chalk boards, books, computers and a connection to the Internet.

Cambodia's Overlake School is named after a school bearing that same name in Washington state, where students worked to fund their counterpart in Cambodia.

When the American students learned schools were badly needed in the Cambodian countryside, they began to work with the group American Assistance for Cambodia to build a school.

"Words can't express how proud I am of what we've accomplished," said 12th grader Kelsey Schmidt.

The students raised $15,000 through bake sales, talent shows and raffles to build the Cambodian school. Once the school was built, they kept raising funds for teachers, books and the computers.

Some of the students had the opportunity to travel to Cambodia to receive a hero's welcome from hundreds of children at the school.

Kun Sokkea, 13, said she's in school for the first time and can finally dream of a better future.

She lives in a one-room shack and her mother is dying of AIDS, but she is now e-mailing her American friends to update them on her studies and progress as she learns English.

"What I want to take away is the knowledge that one person, a high school student, can make this huge difference in someone's life," said 11th grader Nathan Cocanour.

And in a remote corner of Cambodia, the students of the Overlake School have certainly done just that.

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=2842703

Sweetpea · 02-24-2007, 08:23 PM

well, thank you indeed Willravel for your contribution.

I know everyone is jaded or just doesn't give a shit... I know people seem to think "it's something happening far away from MY life and doesn't affect me and never will"
And I'd like to think that comes from a sense of apathy, but I'm still of the opinion that a small group of people can make a difference, as the article you have included has shown.

And I knew that this wasn't an issue that would really stir the typical TFP audience who seem more concerned with other things, but I think that if this thread spreads even a small amount of awareness, that's still a positive thing.

thanks,

sweetpea

Willravel · 02-24-2007, 08:30 PM

What some call "liberal guilt", I call human responsibility. If there is anything I can do to help someone else, I'll do it. Cambodia needs help.

SP, thanks for not being a jaded, apathetic American.

mixedmedia · 02-24-2007, 09:32 PM

Sadly this is happening all over Asia, Eastern Europe, South and Central America. I remember a NY Times Magazine article back in 2004 that documented the trade of children in prostitution that occurred in Mexico. Where these children were sold or simply stolen and walked back and forth across the border to have sex with American pedophiles. It was utterly heartbreaking...the article interviewed a teenage child who had gotten away from her captors. She had been put into prostitution at such a young age that she had no other memories of childhood. It's so difficult sometimes to comprehend these realizations - let alone accomodate them. I mean to really contemplate it, one must imagine it...see it in their mind. It's no wonder so many people turn away. I just happen to be one of those people who can't...this kind of relates to that other thread.

Thanks for posting this, Sweetpea, in an effort to promote awareness and spur action.

Bill O'Rights · 02-25-2007, 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

As an American, I feel partially responsible for what's going on there.

Oh, the magnanimity of it all.
I take some pretty serious issue with your implication that Americans are any more responsible than the American scum that book sex tours in order to have sex with girls that are too young to have pubic hair.
Do not attempt to broaden this attrocity to include a soapbox condemning a failed military operation (abeit illegal) that took place twenty years before you were born. Sorry...Nixon was a lot of shitty things, but he is not responsible for a perverted sex trade, no matter how far removed.
If you want to help, then by all means help. But I see no more reason to feel any more "responsible" than that.

Willravel · 02-25-2007, 10:20 AM

Do you have anything to say about the OP? You find one sentence out of both of my posts and take serious issue with it. I only mentioned Operation Menu in passing, and it was not meant to spark a threadjack. This thread is about sex trade in Cambodia. Further discussion about Operation Menu would do better in another thread. If it makes you feel any better, I'll go back and edit my post to remove it.

Sweetpea · 02-25-2007, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

Do not attempt to broaden this attrocity to include a soapbox condemning a failed military operation (abeit illegal) that took place twenty years before you were born.

well, that's not ageist at all...

this must have struck a cord with your somehow, how facinating.

What makes you think that just because someone doesn't live through something doesn't mean they might not have some insight if they have studied it and delved into it?

sweetpea

Bill O'Rights · 02-25-2007, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

You find one sentence out of both of my posts and take serious issue with it. I only mentioned Operation Menu in passing, and it was not meant to spark a threadjack.

Oh, no. You don't throw out something like that, and not expect for it to be latched onto. Nor do you get to retreat and hide behind the OP. (does the irony strike you at all?)
You are correct that the thread is about sex trade in Cambodia. So why throw out an apologist's statement, trying to tie in an illegal military operation from 1969 into the Southeast Asian sex trade? If you want to blame Americans, then blame the few that are directly responsible. Those that create the demand for this trade. Those that make it economically attractive to sell one's own relatives into virtual slavery. They are the only "Americans" responsible for this disgusting abomination. You don't get to play the "spokesman", and accept partial responsibility, on behalf of America, because of a military operation that you only read about. A military operation that I would be more than happy to discuss with you in another thread.

mixedmedia · 02-25-2007, 03:19 PM

I see both points in this discussion.

Yes. Cambodia is still suffering from events that happened there several decades ago. Some of them directly the result of American interference. Some having nothing to do with America at all.

and

Yes. The global child sex trade is fueled largely by pedophiles in the west who will literally go to the ends of the earth to make their sick fantasies a reality.

BUT, to be sure, there are countries with healthy child sex trades that:
1. have never suffered from a political or otherwise suppressive influence from the United States
and
2. are not third world or even second world countries

I don't necessarily see a correlation there. By saying that I don't mean to dismiss the gravity of what we did in Cambodia. Just looking at it from a different perspective.

Ourcrazymodern? · 02-25-2007, 04:04 PM

Is this sex trade anything other than another unhealthy effect of the money trade we all seem so enamored of? If I could draw you a lot of attributed parallels, I might. As it is, I'm just asking a question.

mixedmedia · 02-25-2007, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ourcrazymodern?

Is this sex trade anything other than another unhealthy effect of the money trade we all seem so enamored of? If I could draw you a lot of attributed parallels, I might. As it is, I'm just asking a question.

Other than the commodities being human beings? No.

Cynthetiq · 02-25-2007, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

Oh my god....I feel sick. Raping children is possibly the most dark and horrible thing a person can do, and it speaks in volumes about the state of the country. One third of prostitutes in Cambodia are children...christ.

My first thought is on how to fix this: the Cambodian economy needs a boom quick. How do they do that? NO MORE CIVIL WARS. As an American, I feel partially responsible for what's going on there. Things like Operation Menu are a big part of what was to blame for the civil wars. Now they still are dealing with heavy corruption in the government and the result is that the countryside has no infrastructure. Australia helped quite a bit when the financed the IRRI (International Rice Research Institute) to help Cambodia become self-sufficient in rice production.

If you want hope, then this article might help you out. It's absolutely inspiring and shows that commonality and sympathy really do exist in the world.

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=2842703

I guess if you feel responsible for it partially, then the French people should also feel even more responsibility for it for their role in the 1860's until 1970's, I mean they had a whole 110 years on the American influences of a few military actions.

The reality here is that exploited PEOPLE children or adults (doesn't matter in my mind since the law considers all whole entity of all rights) are a matter of fact for ALL countries wherein greed and corruption are rampant from the lowest to the highest levels. It does not only happen in Cambodia, but in China, Thailand, Philippines, Malaysia, Russia, and countless other countries, INCLUDING the United States of America.

Modern day slavery happens even today within our own borders of the USA. Human traffickers smuggle humans into the US on a daily basis for sex, low wage labor, promises to bring in families via indentured servitude for the promise of a better life.

If you want to feel responsible for something, feel responsible for the ones that happen on our very own shores.

Quote:

Human trafficking affects between 600,000 and 800,000 victims globally each year, mostly women and children, according to the U.S. State Department. Trafficking includes forced prostitution, forced labor, child soldiers, forced marriage, trafficking of people to sell organs, and child sex tourism. Approximately 14,500 – 17,500 people are trafficked to the United States each year, with New York being among the top domestic destinations for this 21st century slave trade. State legislatures in 25 states, have already passed anti-trafficking laws. However, the New York legislature failed to pass an anti-trafficking law in June 2006.

Willravel · 02-25-2007, 05:07 PM

The French are almost certainly more responsible, but I'm not French. I think the French should admit they are partially responsible for the current situation. It goes without saying that the continuing situation can be blamed on some very sick people that go there for some very sick things.

Sweetpea · 02-25-2007, 06:48 PM

There are a plethora of reasons why this kind of human exploitation is happening, some of it from past actions of america and other countries, Most of it from current political and economic environment.

While I welcome all debate in this thread, What initially wanted this thread to focus on was awareness, solutions and how we can move forward as a global community in aiding victims of trafficking.
here is a BBC article I found interesting on the subject of some baby steps being made and perhaps why progress isn't happening as fast as I would like to see:

Quote:

Cambodia aims to shake off aid dependency
By Guy De Launey
BBC correspondent in Phnom Penh, Cambodia

Riding a motorcycle around Cambodia's capital city Phnom Penh - where drivers play fast and loose with an already pretty slack traffic law - you stand a reasonable chance of being run into a gutter by a white Landcruiser.
Many of the 4x4s in Phnom Penh are owned by aid organisations - a symptom, say some, of the way Cambodia has become addicted to foreign aid.
Already, more than half of the national budget comes from such contributions.
And over the next three years Cambodia will receive a further $1.5bn from donor countries.

Developed infrastructure

In some cases the positive results of aid are obvious.
The main river crossing in Phnom Penh is officially known as the Chroy Changvar Bridge, but it's better known by its nickname, the Japanese Bridge.
That's in tribute to the source of the aid that restored the structure more than two decades after the Khmer Rouge destroyed it.
Just about the only person who was unhappy with Japan was the ferryman the new bridge put out of a job.
Other countries have also contributed to infrastructure development.
It is now possible to contemplate road travel around Cambodia without needing to spend days recovering from pothole-induced injuries.

Donor countries to blame

But despite the cash flowing in to the country, Cambodians are still among the world's poorest people.
Around a third of the population live on less than a dollar a day, and the vast majority live without electricity or mains water.
The infant mortality rate is one of the highest in the world, and HIV/Aids is a major health concern.
The charity Action Aid believe that donor countries themselves are partly to blame for the plight of Cambodia's people.
They say that almost half the amount of aid goes on 'technical assistance', and that the 700 or so international consultants working in the country earn more than Cambodia's 160,000 civil servants put together.

Inappropriate expertise

A report just released by Action Aid claims that consultants in Cambodia are not doing enough to justify their wages.
Instead of transferring skills to Cambodian staff, their time is spent writing reports or doing jobs which they should be training local staff to carry out.
"International experts bring in international expertise," says Action Aid's country director in Cambodia, Keshav Gautam.
"What Cambodia needs is Cambodian expertise, people who understand, know the politics and the economy, who can breathe and feel this country.
"That's what Cambodia needs, not an international expertise that has no relevance to this country."

Difficult balance

The challenge is how to build that expertise after three decades of conflict that saw many of Cambodia's most talented people flee the country, or get killed by the Khmer Rouge.
Briton David Wilkinson has worked as a consultant in Cambodia's healthcare sector for the past five years.
He thinks the country will need technical assistance for some years to come, but he acknowledges it's not always easy for foreign experts to give Cambodians the training they need.
"There's always a difficult balance between getting the job done in the shortest time and, at the other end of the spectrum, simply building capacity," he says.
"Quite often the dictates of the government and the donor are to get the job done, so you've got to work as effectively and efficiently as you can, and provide value for money."

Taking responsibility

Value for money is often the key for donor countries.
They want to make sure their tax payers' cash is well spent.
Worries over corruption in Cambodia mean they're keen to keep control over how funds are used.
Officials at the Council for the Development of Cambodia, the government agency that deals with donors, say the country is now mature enough to take responsibility for its own affairs.
They would like more aid to come in the form of investment, rather than technical assistance.
However, with an anti-corruption law still being drafted, the donors are unlikely to be convinced.
Nonetheless, Mr Gautam hopes the donors will make a leap of faith, and put a greater emphasis on Cambodian-run projects that would help to rebuild the country from within.
"We need to strike a balance between strong cooperation and a belief that third world people and governments have the capacity to take their countries forward," he says.
With the European Union's commitment to double its donations to developing countries, and aid likely to figure prominently at July's G8 meeting, the debate over how the money should be spent is set to heat up.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/h...ss/4584003.stm

Published: 2005/05/26 22:44:46 GMT

© BBC MMVII

Cynthetiq · 02-25-2007, 07:18 PM

Even investing in infrastructure for the country does not guarantee anything nor does it stop corruption and graft, something many impoverished nations live off of.

My parents have tried desperately to help out their poor brethren in their homeland only to be told that they needed to set aside graft money to make the projects one for water treatment facility and the other for a hospital finacially viable. They decided instead to not do the projects because it would propagate the graft and corruption rife within their homeland, yet hundreds of thousands would have benefitted from their bribes. I sometimes wonder if I would also walk away at that moment or would I besmirch my ownself for the benefit of thousands of more unfortunates.

Malaysia, Singapore, Thailand, all have very good foreign investments yet somehow they all seem quite well intertwined in the slave trade and human exploitation.

Again, it is the human condition that is at work here, not governments, nor non-governmental agencies.

I am going to go out on a limb and say that if prostitution is the oldest living profession, slavery is the oldest way of coersion of that profession.

Since I have stated that US soil is also involved in such human trafficking from the State Department:

Quote:

U.S. GOVERNMENT DOMESTIC ANTI-TRAFFICKING EFFORTS

The U.S. Government (USG) in 2005 advanced an aggressive anti-trafficking campaign to address trafficking crimes and victims identified in the United States. This coordinated effort includes several federal agencies and approximately $25 million in Fiscal Year (FY) 2005 for domestic programs to boost anti-trafficking law enforcement efforts, identify and protect victims of trafficking, and raise awareness of trafficking as a means of preventing new incidents. Specifically, this coordinated effort has resulted in the following successes:

In 2005, the Department of Justice (DOJ) charged 116 individuals with human trafficking, almost doubling the number charged in FY 2004. Approximately 80 percent of those defendants were charged under the federal Trafficking Victims Protection Act (TVPA) of 2000. Forty-five traffickers were convicted, of which 35 were implicated in sexual exploitation. These statistics represent federal investigations; law enforcement in states and localities also make significant, indispensable contributions to the fight against trafficking in persons.

As of May 22, 2006, the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) had certified 1,000 victims of human trafficking since the TVPA was signed into law in October 2000. In FY 2005, HHS certified 230 foreign victims of human trafficking from a remarkably diverse array of countries including: Albania, Bangladesh, Bolivia, Cambodia, Cameroon, Chad, Colombia, Czech Republic, Ecuador, El Salvador, Eritrea, Estonia, Ethiopia, Guatemala, Guyana, Honduras, Hungary, Indonesia, Ivory Coast, Jamaica, Kenya, Korea, Latvia, Malaysia, Mongolia, Nepal, Nigeria, Paraguay, Russia, Sri Lanka, Thailand, and Western Samoa. Certification allows human trafficking survivors to access most services and benefits, comparable to assistance provided by the U.S. to refugees.

In FY 2005, the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) issued 112 T-visas to foreign survivors of human trafficking identified in the United States. T- visas are a special visa category resulting from the TVPA. Through February 2005, DHS issued a total of 616 visas to human trafficking survivors, and another 573 T-visas to members of their family.

In 2005, state law enforcement agencies convicted over 26,000 “johns” for trying to buy sex services.

In FY 2005, HHS launched new antitrafficking coalitions in ten U.S. cities to increase public awareness of human trafficking and to increase the number of trafficking victims identified as part of its Rescue and Restore campaign.

Sweetpea · 02-25-2007, 10:31 PM

thank you cyn for your contribution to this thread. Here on our shores or abroad, trafficking is truly an issue.

So, if it's not economic infrastructure that plays the largest part... then it's really a culture of corruption and of valuing women and children as less that we're up against... The only way I know how to change that is through education, providing different opportunities, but even then... How can we change the fact that this child's AUNT was the one who sold her to the rapist??

Ourcrazymodern? · 02-26-2007, 06:49 AM

An Asian friend of mine once told me that human life was less valued in his home country than he found it to be here in America. Perhaps the aunt was acting from some similar belief, and it wasn't a big moral issue for her to sell a child. Understanding her reasons may be beyond us. I'm not sure I'd even want to...

Cynthetiq · 02-26-2007, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ourcrazymodern?

An Asian friend of mine once told me that human life was less valued in his home country than he found it to be here in America. Perhaps the aunt was acting from some similar belief, and it wasn't a big moral issue for her to sell a child. Understanding her reasons may be beyond us. I'm not sure I'd even want to...

Is it really? Or is that what we tell ourselves to help us sleep at night.

In the past 16 years I have lived in NYC, people have been killed over $.25, a pair of sneakers, a leather jacket, affection of a girl, or even "looked at someone funny", babies have been sold for drugs, children for sexual favors in exchange for drugs... Again, I'm going to cite the human condition for these behaviors, not places nor cultures. While it may not be so prevalent in the MidWest, it does exist in similar ways all over the United States.

mixedmedia · 02-26-2007, 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

Is it really? Or is that what we tell ourselves to help us sleep at night.

In the past 16 years I have lived in NYC, people have been killed over $.25, a pair of sneakers, a leather jacket, affection of a girl, or even "looked at someone funny", babies have been sold for drugs, children for sexual favors in exchange for drugs... Again, I'm going to cite the human condition for these behaviors, not places nor cultures. While it may not be so prevalent in the MidWest, it does exist in similar ways all over the United States.

I agree with this. It's easy to replace popular notions with hard realities. It's funny how, even though we have an insatiable appetite for stories such as these about our fellow Americans, apparently once the story has been absorbed and chatted about, there are no lingering doubts about the "higher morality" of our society. No matter what we always stay above "those other countries."

Ourcrazymodern? · 02-26-2007, 09:12 AM

???maybe we're over-populated??? The hinterlands everywhere hold lots of space. Cynthetiq, there've been killings here about similar things. mixedmedia, good god!!!!

mixedmedia · 02-26-2007, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ourcrazymodern?

???maybe we're over-populated??? The hinterlands everywhere hold lots of space. Cynthetiq, there've been killings here about similar things. mixedmedia, good god!!!!

he won't help you now.

Sweetpea · 02-26-2007, 11:24 AM

then, I guess my questions remains albeit it's boiled down...

Will it be possible to affect change of the human condition then?

jorgelito · 02-26-2007, 12:15 PM

Short answer: Sure, but it will take time and effort.

Cynthetiq · 02-26-2007, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sweetpea

then, I guess my questions remains albeit it's boiled down...

Will it be possible to affect change of the human condition then?

I'm not so sure. In the thousands of years that we have been living in "civilized" manners, these things still persist.

Let's look at the things that pass on the things that teach us about the human condition, stories, allegory, fables, parables. Modern day stories, Shakespeare, Biblical parable, fables, Greek drama all date back to pre BC times. Yet the tales told are all the same about the human condition involving the "seven deadly sins", Pride, Avarice, Wrath, Envy, Lust, Gluttony, Sloth.

People have been killing and exploiting each other as long as the historical record has been kept. Code of Hammurabi dates back to 2050B.C. and has some instruction on punishment "154. If a man be guilty of incest with his daughter, he shall be driven from the place (exiled)." Interestingly enough there is alot in the code about slaves and how to identify and pay for them. So we've come "some way" but still again, it has not been eradicated.

Sweetpea · 02-27-2007, 10:50 PM

I understand the point being made about the human condition and I don't disagree...

but I'm left with the thought... I should accept that it happens and attempt to make no change for these children's lives because someone else has decided that is their human condition to peddle away that child's life?

maybe I haven't accepted the cold harsh realities of the world, but just because harsh realities exist doesn't mean people should turn a blind eye and not attempt to make any change, no?

thanks,

sweetpea

The_Jazz · 02-28-2007, 05:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sweetpea

I understand the point being made about the human condition and I don't disagree...

but I'm left with the thought... I should accept that it happens and attempt to make no change for these children's lives because someone else has decided that is their human condition to peddle away that child's life?

maybe I haven't accepted the cold harsh realities of the world, but just because harsh realities exist doesn't mean people should turn a blind eye and not attempt to make any change, no?

thanks,

sweetpea

Sweetpea, the world needs more people like you. You don't accept the way the world is and want it to change. The whole "higher value" (for lack of a better term) placed on human life in the West resulted from a long series of small changes made by people like you.

Then there are people like me, who don't necessarily turn a blind eye as notice the problem, say something along the lines of "gee, that sucks" and go about our business. It takes a lot to jolt the majority out of their ruts, and it seems to happen in this country about every 75-100 years. We're not due for another one in another 25-50, unfortunately.

mixedmedia · 02-28-2007, 06:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz

It takes a lot to jolt the majority out of their ruts, and it seems to happen in this country about every 75-100 years. We're not due for another one in another 25-50, unfortunately.

But if not for the diligence of people who care in the interim, we would not even have that.

Ourcrazymodern? · 02-28-2007, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mixedmedia

he won't help you now.

sure it will. not expecting guidance and unsurprized when it doesn't arrive, what can any of us do when our species cries out in ways that we don't agree with? Perhaps a mirror-image collage of hard realities and popular notions might be in order?
Maybe there's no reflection? IT MAY BE that it's all coming from the same place, at the same time, and our interpretations are what're causing problems?

It wasn't that long ago "we" were buying and selling others, if not for sex then for labor. And that is still happening.

mixedmedia · 02-28-2007, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ourcrazymodern?

sure it will. not expecting guidance and unsurprized when it doesn't arrive, what can any of us do when our species cries out in ways that we don't agree with? Perhaps a mirror-image collage of hard realities and popular notions might be in order?
Maybe there's no reflection? IT MAY BE that it's all coming from the same place, at the same time, and our interpretations are what're causing problems?

It wasn't that long ago "we" were buying and selling others, if not for sex then for labor. And that is still happening.

Actually, looking back I transposed the terms "popular notions" and "hard realities." It should have read: It's easy to replace hard realities with popular notions.

Otherwise...I'm not really following you. Help me out.

Ourcrazymodern? · 03-01-2007, 09:22 AM

Like you, I hate the notion of people being bought and sold. The mirror-image of our goodness is our evil. Humanity is making its path through this place and not very well in some cases. The no-reflection thing was yet another allusion to it being just us here.
The woman selling her niece we cannot judge unless we understand her motives. I believe we can judge the buyer, understanding his?
Beyond that, my apologies, ma'am!

mixedmedia · 03-01-2007, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ourcrazymodern?

Like you, I hate the notion of people being bought and sold. The mirror-image of our goodness is our evil. Humanity is making its path through this place and not very well in some cases. The no-reflection thing was yet another allusion to it being just us here.
The woman selling her niece we cannot judge unless we understand her motives. I believe we can judge the buyer, understanding his?
Beyond that, my apologies, ma'am!

Thank you.

No apologies needed!

I understand the whole good & evil, yin yang, there can be no good without evil concept. I just don't fully accept it. To do so, I believe, absolves those who do horrible things from responsibility to an extent. The devil made me do it, buah ha ha ha ha. Bullshit. It's all conscious choices. And yes, there a million variables in this big blue world (to steal a T Waits phrase

), some choices are harder made than others. And it had occurred to me that we know very little about the aunt's motives. She may have thought she was selling the girl into marriage or labor. Not that that's good, but different than we're all assuming here. As for the rapist, yes, there is not much that can excuse his actions other than an obvious obsessive mental disorder. So maybe all these variables coming together and resulting in the brutality suffered by this young girl represent the workings of a kind of evil in this world. Yet the choices that allowed it to visit itself upon this girl were made by people who could have chosen differently.

Whatever all that means...I have to get back to work.

jorgelito · 03-02-2007, 12:37 AM

Here is an interesting example but in a different country. Additionally, the article talks a bit of the cultural aspects behind these "traditions" of slavery etc. Someone had mentioned cultural differences as a reason for these things to happen. The article also talks about what they are doing to affect change and such.

You asked about change and if it's possible. I believe so but not at a great pace. In this example, efforts are being made to make change, a little bit at a time.

Quote:

BBC NEWS

Desperate plight of Nepal 'slave girls'
Charles Haviland
BBC News, Dang, western Nepal

In the undergrowth, 13-year-old Junu Shrestha hacks away to gather fodder for her landlady's cattle.

When she has collected a pile bigger than herself, she hoists it onto her back and fixes it with a headband.

She trudges back to the house, 20 minutes away.

She is one of at least 20,000 girls in western Nepal who are working as indentured domestic servants in conditions campaigners say amount to slavery.

Parents send them away in exchange for a sum of money paid by landlords, who sometimes keep the girls for years.

'Nothing wrong'

Usually the girls are recruited by a middleman.

In recent years charitable groups have freed nearly 3,000 such girls, who are known as kamlaris.

But the system persists despite being outlawed last year.

"I get up at six," Junu tells the BBC shyly.

"I clean the house, sweep the yard, fetch water and feed the cattle.

"I walk to the jungle to cut fodder. Later I wash the dishes, then I bring water again and collect fodder again. Sometimes I wash clothes."

She says she misses her school, and her friends who are now too far away for her to visit.

Her situation is particularly bad. She is an orphan, and used to live with her uncle.

She says he was an alcoholic who sent her away 18 months ago after a house-owner promised him four thousand rupees a year - about $60 - for Junu's services.

Junu gets no money herself.

The landlady and her daughter see nothing wrong in having Junu as a kamlari. They say the payment is good and that her uncle is happy with it.

"This girl is an orphan and she landed up in our lap," they say.

Regular payments mean a girl may remain a kamlari for years, with no option of leaving.

Ready victims

In the cold winter mist outside the town of Ghorahi, women draw water from a well and children play marbles in the dust.

Families are living in small houses they have built themselves.

These are the kinds of people, mostly from the impoverished Tharu ethnic group, that send their daughters to be indentured labourers.

Most of these families were until recently bonded labourers themselves.

They are squatting on government land and have no money.

Other families used to have land but lost it to richer incomers.

Some offer their daughters in exchange for landlords letting them cultivate the land and keep some of the crop.

Traditionally, many people have seen the kamlari system as positive - a money-earner in big families.

There is little contraception here. Many men believe vasectomies would sap their strength.

The girls miss out on school. Parents often lose almost all trace of their children.

Changing times?

There have, however, been major efforts to end the system, spearheaded by a Nepalese charity, Friends of Needy Children (FNC) - especially during the Tharus' winter festival of Maghi.

In a park in the highway town of Lamahi, a cast including former kamlaris stage a play with a message against indentured labour.

A drunken father sends his daughter away, defying his wife. The girl is beaten and treated cruelly by her landlords.

The crowd, including children and many parents, are captivated.

At the end people from the audience come on stage to try to persuade the father he's wrong.

One succeeds by telling him to pay not for alcohol but for his daughter's schooling.

The young girl is acted by Siba Chaudhary, who was a kamlari for five years.

Experiences and hopes

Siba worked for two families, including that of her landlady's sister who lived nearby.

"The sister's husband tried to abuse me sexually, several times," she recalls.

"He used to come to my room. I would cry, so he never succeeded."

There are many accounts of such sexual abuse, including rape which sometimes results in the kamlari getting pregnant and being dismissed.

Siba says she was usually fed with leftovers, and was beaten and verbally abused by some of the women she worked for.

She wants to become a lawyer to take action against those who keep kamlaris.

The BBC visited a family who have just agreed to take back their daughter, Junu Chaudhary, after persuasion by FNC's local partner, Social Welfare Action Nepal.

The father is clearly in two minds about feeding an extra mouth.

But the mother, Uma, while hesitant, says "we do realise it's a bad practice... we want her at home. We don't have much to eat, but we'll share the vegetables we have."

SWAN supplies the freed girls with uniforms and usually provides their families with economic recompense in the form of a goat or a pig to earn them income.

But there are many girls still working, and a lot of persuading and education for campaigners to do.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/h...ia/6405373.stm

Published: 2007/03/02 00:27:53 GMT

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6405373.stm

Cynthetiq · 03-02-2007, 06:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sweetpea

I understand the point being made about the human condition and I don't disagree...

but I'm left with the thought... I should accept that it happens and attempt to make no change for these children's lives because someone else has decided that is their human condition to peddle away that child's life?

maybe I haven't accepted the cold harsh realities of the world, but just because harsh realities exist doesn't mean people should turn a blind eye and not attempt to make any change, no?

thanks,

sweetpea

An interesting question.

Is that not the same drive that makes Fundamentalist Christians and Fanatical Muslims do the things that they do? I'm thinking of this in parallel to abortion, western lifestyle, polyamory, music, dance, hedonistic living, et. al.

At some point there is live and let live. You present your case and then it is up to the individual to decide what they want to do. If they do nothing with the new information that is also their choice.

I think that the only thing you have to accept is that you've made the attempt at education as best as you can and not forced someone to change a lifestyle that they find palatable to themselves and can sleep at night.

spectre · 03-02-2007, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

An interesting question.

Is that not the same drive that makes Fundamentalist Christians and Fanatical Muslims do the things that they do? I'm thinking of this in parallel to abortion, western lifestyle, polyamory, music, dance, hedonistic living, et. al.

At some point there is live and let live. You present your case and then it is up to the individual to decide what they want to do. If they do nothing with the new information that is also their choice.

I think that the only thing you have to accept is that you've made the attempt at education as best as you can and not forced someone to change a lifestyle that they find palatable to themselves and can sleep at night.

But in this case, we're not talking about polyamory, music, or dance, we're talking about about young children being abducted and turned into sex slaves and prostitutes. There's no choice for them in this. That's like saying the Chicago Police should've just presented their case to John Wayne Gacy and left him alone if he had decided to continue.

Cynthetiq · 03-02-2007, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spectre

But in this case, we're not talking about polyamory, music, or dance, we're talking about about young children being abducted and turned into sex slaves and prostitutes. There's no choice for them in this. That's like saying the Chicago Police should've just presented their case to John Wayne Gacy and left him alone if he had decided to continue.

Nothing in my quote stated anything in regards to KILLING another person, child or adult and your Gacy parallel is on it's face absurd.

What I did bring to light is that not turning a blind eye towards something and championing a position on something you believe in strongly is no different than Fundamentalist Christians and Mulsim faiths also imposing their belief structures upon others. At some point there is the ground to agree to disagree and leave people to live their lives as they see fit.

Looking back at American history, Southern states didn't see slavery as immoral but as a lifestyle that provided an economy of living, thus they could not understand any wrongdoing or immorality. We wax nostaligic at the American forefathers forgetting or even not knowing that most of them were slave owners.

spectre · 03-02-2007, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

Nothing in my quote stated anything in regards to KILLING another person, child or adult and your Gacy parallel is on it's face absurd.

What I did bring to light is that not turning a blind eye towards something and championing a position on something you believe in strongly is no different than Fundamentalist Christians and Mulsim faiths also imposing their belief structures upon others. At some point there is the ground to agree to disagree and leave people to live their lives as they see fit.

Looking back at American history, Southern states didn't see slavery as immoral but as a lifestyle that provided an economy of living, thus they could not understand any wrongdoing or immorality. We wax nostaligic at the American forefathers forgetting or even not knowing that most of them were slave owners.

Ah okay, then I misunderstood where you were going with that, and I know you didn't say anything about killing people, but I just too the example to the extreme simply because we are still talking about serious sexual and physical abuse of children, so I used Gacy to make a point. But in all of this abuse, there have to be situations where these children are murdered. An herself thought she would be killed.

And even so, because people don't believe something to be wrong doesn't make it okay. In the Southern States example, while I know there was more to it then just opposition to slavery, it was a big part of the Civil War that ensued. So in that case, there was an injustice that some people didn't see as one due to culture, and that led to action to change things.

Cynthetiq · 03-02-2007, 09:13 AM

I'm trying to investigate what slavery means to other countries and cultures and I found this via wikipedia:

Quote:

The 1926 Slavery Convention, an initiative of the League of Nations, was a turning point in banning global slavery. Article 4 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, adopted in 1948 by the UN General Assembly, explicitly banned slavery. The United Nations 1956 Supplementary Convention on the Abolition of Slavery was convened to outlaw and ban slavery worldwide, including child slavery. In December 1966, the UN General Assembly adopted the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, which was developed from the Universal Declaraction of Human Rights. Article 8 of this international treaty bans slavery. The treaty came into force in March 1976 after it had been ratified by 35 nations. As of November 2003, 104 nations had ratified the treaty.

Slavery is defined as a crime against humanity by a French law of 2001.

I did read over the actual text. A timeline of Slavery in Europe is quite interesting but it is incomplete.

The anti-slaverysociety website (I will not directly link here due to child pictures) is quite interesting as well as it helps put a human being in front of the text, just search about the previous link I provided.

No it does not make it okay, but again, imposing morality on others is sticky business. There is a point where a line is drawn and people have to make the decisions for themselves.

Ourcrazymodern? · 03-02-2007, 10:37 AM

(not a thread-jack, I hope, just a thought: The USA runs all over spending hundreds of billions doing what amounts to nothing except destruction.) Wouldn't addressing these issues such as slavery and others disrespecting human life be less costly and more constructive? Maybe there's not enough "profit" in it? Individual packaging is not the evil: One's morality may become it, as part of a group or all alone. They say money talks, and we can see the evidence, but I never heard a whisper.

02-24-2007, 08:23 PM	#4 (permalink)
Sweetpea Fade out Location: in love	well, thank you indeed Willravel for your contribution. I know everyone is jaded or just doesn't give a shit... I know people seem to think "it's something happening far away from MY life and doesn't affect me and never will" And I'd like to think that comes from a sense of apathy, but I'm still of the opinion that a small group of people can make a difference, as the article you have included has shown. And I knew that this wasn't an issue that would really stir the typical TFP audience who seem more concerned with other things, but I think that if this thread spreads even a small amount of awareness, that's still a positive thing. thanks, sweetpea __________________ Having a Pet Will Change Your Life! Looking for a great pet?! Click Here! "I am the Type of Person Who Can Get Away With A lot, Simply Because I Don't Ask Permission for the Privilege of Being Myself"

02-24-2007, 09:32 PM	#6 (permalink)
mixedmedia has all her shots. Location: Florida	Sadly this is happening all over Asia, Eastern Europe, South and Central America. I remember a NY Times Magazine article back in 2004 that documented the trade of children in prostitution that occurred in Mexico. Where these children were sold or simply stolen and walked back and forth across the border to have sex with American pedophiles. It was utterly heartbreaking...the article interviewed a teenage child who had gotten away from her captors. She had been put into prostitution at such a young age that she had no other memories of childhood. It's so difficult sometimes to comprehend these realizations - let alone accomodate them. I mean to really contemplate it, one must imagine it...see it in their mind. It's no wonder so many people turn away. I just happen to be one of those people who can't...this kind of relates to that other thread. Thanks for posting this, Sweetpea, in an effort to promote awareness and spur action. __________________ Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

02-25-2007, 03:19 PM	#11 (permalink)
mixedmedia has all her shots. Location: Florida	I see both points in this discussion. Yes. Cambodia is still suffering from events that happened there several decades ago. Some of them directly the result of American interference. Some having nothing to do with America at all. and Yes. The global child sex trade is fueled largely by pedophiles in the west who will literally go to the ends of the earth to make their sick fantasies a reality. BUT, to be sure, there are countries with healthy child sex trades that: 1. have never suffered from a political or otherwise suppressive influence from the United States and 2. are not third world or even second world countries I don't necessarily see a correlation there. By saying that I don't mean to dismiss the gravity of what we did in Cambodia. Just looking at it from a different perspective. __________________ Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

02-25-2007, 04:04 PM	#12 (permalink)
Ourcrazymodern? still, wondering. Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge	Is this sex trade anything other than another unhealthy effect of the money trade we all seem so enamored of? If I could draw you a lot of attributed parallels, I might. As it is, I'm just asking a question. __________________ BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

02-25-2007, 10:31 PM	#18 (permalink)
Sweetpea Fade out Location: in love	thank you cyn for your contribution to this thread. Here on our shores or abroad, trafficking is truly an issue. So, if it's not economic infrastructure that plays the largest part... then it's really a culture of corruption and of valuing women and children as less that we're up against... The only way I know how to change that is through education, providing different opportunities, but even then... How can we change the fact that this child's AUNT was the one who sold her to the rapist?? __________________ Having a Pet Will Change Your Life! Looking for a great pet?! Click Here! "I am the Type of Person Who Can Get Away With A lot, Simply Because I Don't Ask Permission for the Privilege of Being Myself"

02-24-2007, 06:41 PM	#2 (permalink)
jorgelito All important elusive independent swing voter... Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia	You have a good heart Sweet Pea, but unfortunately, people just don't care or have reached their capacity to care. Cambodia and many other poor, SE Asian countries, and especially African countries are complete debacles of humanity, yet most people (West, industrialized) remain unmoved. There is some speculation that the reasons are because they fail to identify with the "victims", cannot sympathize due to the fact that there are just way too many tragedies and atrocities in the world (desensitization, over stimulation), or simply do not care.

02-24-2007, 08:30 PM	#5 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	What some call "liberal guilt", I call human responsibility. If there is anything I can do to help someone else, I'll do it. Cambodia needs help. SP, thanks for not being a jaded, apathetic American.

02-25-2007, 10:20 AM	#8 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Do you have anything to say about the OP? You find one sentence out of both of my posts and take serious issue with it. I only mentioned Operation Menu in passing, and it was not meant to spark a threadjack. This thread is about sex trade in Cambodia. Further discussion about Operation Menu would do better in another thread. If it makes you feel any better, I'll go back and edit my post to remove it.

02-25-2007, 05:07 PM	#15 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	The French are almost certainly more responsible, but I'm not French. I think the French should admit they are partially responsible for the current situation. It goes without saying that the continuing situation can be blamed on some very sick people that go there for some very sick things.

02-26-2007, 06:49 AM	#19 (permalink)
Ourcrazymodern? still, wondering. Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge	An Asian friend of mine once told me that human life was less valued in his home country than he found it to be here in America. Perhaps the aunt was acting from some similar belief, and it wasn't a big moral issue for her to sell a child. Understanding her reasons may be beyond us. I'm not sure I'd even want to... __________________ BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

02-26-2007, 09:12 AM	#22 (permalink)
Ourcrazymodern? still, wondering. Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge	???maybe we're over-populated??? The hinterlands everywhere hold lots of space. Cynthetiq, there've been killings here about similar things. mixedmedia, good god!!!! __________________ BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

02-26-2007, 11:24 AM	#24 (permalink)
Sweetpea Fade out Location: in love	then, I guess my questions remains albeit it's boiled down... Will it be possible to affect change of the human condition then? __________________ Having a Pet Will Change Your Life! Looking for a great pet?! Click Here! "I am the Type of Person Who Can Get Away With A lot, Simply Because I Don't Ask Permission for the Privilege of Being Myself"

02-26-2007, 12:15 PM	#25 (permalink)
jorgelito All important elusive independent swing voter... Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia	Short answer: Sure, but it will take time and effort.

02-27-2007, 10:50 PM	#27 (permalink)
Sweetpea Fade out Location: in love	I understand the point being made about the human condition and I don't disagree... but I'm left with the thought... I should accept that it happens and attempt to make no change for these children's lives because someone else has decided that is their human condition to peddle away that child's life? maybe I haven't accepted the cold harsh realities of the world, but just because harsh realities exist doesn't mean people should turn a blind eye and not attempt to make any change, no? thanks, sweetpea __________________ Having a Pet Will Change Your Life! Looking for a great pet?! Click Here! "I am the Type of Person Who Can Get Away With A lot, Simply Because I Don't Ask Permission for the Privilege of Being Myself" Last edited by Sweetpea; 02-27-2007 at 10:59 PM..

03-01-2007, 09:22 AM	#32 (permalink)
Ourcrazymodern? still, wondering. Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge	Like you, I hate the notion of people being bought and sold. The mirror-image of our goodness is our evil. Humanity is making its path through this place and not very well in some cases. The no-reflection thing was yet another allusion to it being just us here. The woman selling her niece we cannot judge unless we understand her motives. I believe we can judge the buyer, understanding his? Beyond that, my apologies, ma'am! __________________ BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

03-02-2007, 10:37 AM	#40 (permalink)
Ourcrazymodern? still, wondering. Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge	(not a thread-jack, I hope, just a thought: The USA runs all over spending hundreds of billions doing what amounts to nothing except destruction.) Wouldn't addressing these issues such as slavery and others disrespecting human life be less costly and more constructive? Maybe there's not enough "profit" in it? Individual packaging is not the evil: One's morality may become it, as part of a group or all alone. They say money talks, and we can see the evidence, but I never heard a whisper. __________________ BE JUST AND FEAR NOT