Modern Day Slavery In Cambodia - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Sweetpea · 03-03-2007, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ourcrazymodern?

(not a thread-jack, I hope, just a thought: The USA runs all over spending hundreds of billions doing what amounts to nothing except destruction.) Wouldn't addressing these issues such as slavery and others disrespecting human life be less costly and more constructive? Maybe there's not enough "profit" in it? Individual packaging is not the evil: One's morality may become it, as part of a group or all alone. They say money talks, and we can see the evidence, but I never heard a whisper.

a worthy point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

Is that not the same drive that makes Fundamentalist Christians and Fanatical Muslims do the things that they do?

I was hardly being fanatical. Just saying I'm not going to turn a blind eye to children being beaten and raped, did I say "at whatever cost blah blah blah"... no. Now that would have been fanatical.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

No it does not make it okay, but again, imposing morality on others is sticky business. There is a point where a line is drawn and people have to make the decisions for themselves.

Yes, people do have to draw their own lines. Interestingly enough, if the line isn't drawn at raping, imprisioning and beating a child on a daily basis... where would it be drawn? Killing the child once you were done? I don't see the comparison you're making. Raping children is not a culturally acceptable thing or even "imposing morality", even in the countries mentioned in this thread, this is not something that is widely accepted.
Women are often completely devalued in many countries around the world... would I be "imposing my morality" by saying I would like that to change and for those women to have some amount of choice in their lives?

My own goal with this thread and my only goal in my personal thoughts with such topics is to make sure people are at least aware. Occasionally, there is the person that says, "I didn't know this was happening, I'd like to get involved" But...I've been around enough to know most people aren't really stirred by such things anyway.

thanks,

sweetpea

Willravel · 03-03-2007, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

An interesting question.

Is that not the same drive that makes Fundamentalist Christians and Fanatical Muslims do the things that they do? I'm thinking of this in parallel to abortion, western lifestyle, polyamory, music, dance, hedonistic living, et. al.

Slavery, rape and pedophilia are not just wrong in the west, so I'd have to disagree. We're not talking about different philosophies, we are talking about the victimization of children.

Cynthetiq · 03-03-2007, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sweetpea

a worthy point.

I was hardly being fanatical. Just saying I'm not going to turn a blind eye to children being beaten and raped, did I say "at whatever cost blah blah blah"... no. Now that would have been fanatical.

Yes, people do have to draw their own lines. Interestingly enough, if the line isn't drawn at raping, imprisioning and beating a child on a daily basis... where would it be drawn? Killing the child once you were done? I don't see the comparison you're making. Raping children is not a culturally acceptable thing or even "imposing morality", even in the countries mentioned in this thread, this is not something that is widely accepted.
Women are often completely devalued in many countries around the world... would I be "imposing my morality" by saying I would like that to change and for those women to have some amount of choice in their lives?

My own goal with this thread and my only goal in my personal thoughts with such topics is to make sure people are at least aware. Occasionally, there is the person that says, "I didn't know this was happening, I'd like to get involved" But...I've been around enough to know most people aren't really stirred by such things anyway.

thanks,

sweetpea

I was not implying that you were being fanantical, but pointing out that moral imposition comes from a place that is uncomfortable for someone.

You pointing out women being devalued in other countires/cultures is a great example of that moral imposition against those that believe their country/culture is right/acceptable.

That is all that I was adding along those lines.

Will, sectioning off just that part of my discussion along with your comment is implying that I accept that as acceptable. Nothing in ALL the links and comments I have made suggest that.

Sweetpea · 03-07-2007, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

You pointing out women being devalued in other countires/cultures is a great example of that moral imposition against those that believe their country/culture is right/acceptable.

Women all over the world not having basic rights, and I'm not talking "she had to wear a head covering" I'm talking, "they cut off her clit against her choice and she is not allowed an education or to speak when a man is present and has no say over who can use her body".... that's a whole different thread, although it's closely related to the slavery issues that are happening to mostly women.

I think all humans, regaurdless of their gender deserve some reasonable freedom of choice, yes.

Short of flaming you...
If you see that not as a basic right... but as a 'moral imposition'on my part... then I think we need to agree to disagree.

thanks,

sweetpea

Cynthetiq · 03-07-2007, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sweetpea

Women all over the world not having basic rights, and I'm not talking "she had to wear a head covering" I'm talking, "they cut off her clit against her choice and she is not allowed an education or to speak when a man is present and has no say over who can use her body".... that's a whole different thread, although it's closely related to the slavery issues that are happening to mostly women.

I think all humans, regaurdless of their gender deserve some reasonable freedom of choice, yes.

Short of flaming you...
If you see that not as a basic right... but as a 'moral imposition'on my part... then I think we need to agree to disagree.

thanks,

sweetpea

Again, I don't disagree with you. I'm stating that the people who have those beliefs disagree with you and find your morals imposing on them just as anyone else who makes judgements on other's morality.

I'm advocating that knowing that if I'm making the impostion it is equally fair for someone else to make the imposition upon me, and I have to be thick skinned enough to say,"Thank you for your opinion, no thank you.

Willravel · 03-07-2007, 10:23 PM

The point I was trying to make, Cynth, was that some morals are so universal that the idea of imposing them really should be the last thing to consider. Take, for example, murder of children. I think that, except for a few extreme and long gone times and places, everyone can agree that murdering a child in cold blood is very, very wrong.

I think these people know what they are doing is wrong, but do it anyway because they can get away with it. If we were to stop them, we would not be stripping them of their morals or imposing morals on them that they didn't have before we stepped in.

opus123 · 03-07-2007, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

They decided instead to not do the projects because it would propagate the graft and corruption rife within their homeland, yet hundreds of thousands would have benefitted from their bribes.

Jeez, lobbyists in DC are doing bribes everyday. Every nation in the world does bribes aka donations. Everyone scratches backs. The trick is to give bribes in other countries to the "better" government people, rather than bribe everyone across the board. (I bet World Vision has a list of ethcial and non-ethical people in Cambodia that they do deals with). Heck, you could even take over Hybrid cars to use for bribes and that would have a good effect. Cash bribes are not as good as a general rule.

But if you want to get rid of the child sex trade, then you have to support ethical people in the Cambodian government and support US presidential runners who actually care about poor countries. Namely women Senators and congresswomen. They seem to be on the forefront of change against sex-trafficking.

http://maloney.house.gov/index.php?o...=732&Itemid=41

End Demand for Sex Trafficking Act (H.R. 2012, 109th Congress) -- Representative Maloney is the lead Democrat on legislation introduced by Representative Deborah Pryce (R-OH) which will reduce the demand for trafficking by supporting the development of more effective means of combating unlawful commercial sex activities by targeting demand; protecting children from the predators and exploiters who use them in commercial sex activities; clarifying that the operation of sex tours is prohibited under federal law; assisting State and local governments in their enforcement of existing laws dealing with commercial sex activities; conducting a Biennial Statistical Review every two years to provide a more accurate picture of the problem; and conveninge an Annual Report and Conference on best practices about reducing demand for commercial sex acts.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c109:H.R.2012:

Jonathan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

Will, sectioning off just that part of my discussion

Oh my goodness, now it hurts when it is done to you, but it ok for you to do it to Will !

Jonathan

Cynthetiq · 03-07-2007, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by opus123

Jeez, lobbyists in DC are doing bribes everyday. Every nation in the world does bribes aka donations. Everyone scratches backs. The trick is to give bribes in other countries to the "better" government people, rather than bribe everyone across the board. (I bet World Vision has a list of ethcial and non-ethical people in Cambodia that they do deals with). Heck, you could even take over Hybrid cars to use for bribes and that would have a good effect. Cash bribes are not as good as a general rule.

But if you want to get rid of the child sex trade, then you have to support ethical people in the Cambodian government and support US presidential runners who actually care about poor countries. Namely women Senators and congresswomen. They seem to be on the forefront of change against sex-trafficking.

http://maloney.house.gov/index.php?o...=732&Itemid=41

End Demand for Sex Trafficking Act (H.R. 2012, 109th Congress) -- Representative Maloney is the lead Democrat on legislation introduced by Representative Deborah Pryce (R-OH) which will reduce the demand for trafficking by supporting the development of more effective means of combating unlawful commercial sex activities by targeting demand; protecting children from the predators and exploiters who use them in commercial sex activities; clarifying that the operation of sex tours is prohibited under federal law; assisting State and local governments in their enforcement of existing laws dealing with commercial sex activities; conducting a Biennial Statistical Review every two years to provide a more accurate picture of the problem; and conveninge an Annual Report and Conference on best practices about reducing demand for commercial sex acts.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c109:H.R.2012:

Jonathan

Quote:

Originally Posted by cynthetiq

Will, sectioning off just that part of my discussion

Oh my goodness, now it hurts when it is done to you, but it ok for you to do it to Will !

Jonathan

That morality may be fine for you. For my parents, they felt it was still not above board and that it sullied their own reputations and self worth. You may feel otherwise and may act differently if you had the same opportuinity. I feel I may have felt the same as you, possibly.

no, it doesn't hurt, it puts it OUT OF CONTEXT and he make the implication that I accept it. I have not once stated that I accept any of this.

Quote:

Will, sectioning off just that part of my discussion along with your comment is implying that I accept that as acceptable. Nothing in ALL the links and comments I have made suggest that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

The point I was trying to make, Cynth, was that some morals are so universal that the idea of imposing them really should be the last thing to consider. Take, for example, murder of children. I think that, except for a few extreme and long gone times and places, everyone can agree that murdering a child in cold blood is very, very wrong.

I think these people know what they are doing is wrong, but do it anyway because they can get away with it. If we were to stop them, we would not be stripping them of their morals or imposing morals on them that they didn't have before we stepped in.

I agree, killing a PERSON is a universal moral. Changing it to anything else, like children, bias crime, and the like IMO belittle the moral to bring focus on the difference of the individual. Murdering a person in cold blood is very very wrong, EQUALLY. The Bill of Rights doesn't distinguish rights between an adult, child, sexual orientation, race, etc. Those are as you say should be universal.

In taking your last statement, that same logic applies to those opposing birth control and those for birth control. Again, you prove my statments that each side can have the same fundamentalism and conviction in their beliefs, which again, is something that I've been trying to point out. I acknowledge your points and understand them, do you understand mine?

Willravel · 03-07-2007, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

I agree, killing a PERSON is a universal moral. Changing it to anything else, like children, bias crime, and the like IMO belittle the moral to bring focus on the difference of the individual. Murdering a person in cold blood is very very wrong, EQUALLY. The Bill of Rights doesn't distinguish rights between an adult, child, sexual orientation, race, etc. Those are as you say should be universal.

I specifically mentioned children because that's the case here. The same may not be as universal when it comes to people of different races, genders, or creeds. For example, it's still okay to kill a woman for being unfaithful in some places. Those same places ban murdering children, though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

In taking your last statement, that same logic applies to those opposing birth control and those for birth control. Again, you prove my statments that each side can have the same fundamentalism and conviction in their beliefs, which again, is something that I've been trying to point out. I acknowledge your points and understand them, do you understand mine?

My point is that the people specifically mentioned, the traffickers of child sex slavery and their customers, are almost certainly aware that what they are doing is wrong, and thus we would not be forcing morality on them if we were to try and stop them.

You point seems to be that you think they believe they are right. I strongly disagree.

Cynthetiq · 03-07-2007, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

I specifically mentioned children because that's the case here. The same may not be as universal when it comes to people of different races, genders, or creeds. For example, it's still okay to kill a woman for being unfaithful in some places. Those same places ban murdering children, though.

My point is that the people specifically mentioned, the traffickers of child sex slavery and their customers, are almost certainly aware that what they are doing is wrong, and thus we would not be forcing morality on them if we were to try and stop them.

You point seems to be that you think they believe they are right. I strongly disagree.

Again, you point out exactly what I'm trying to say. Killing a human being is universally wrong, yet you are allowing it to be excused in our above statement.

I don't know if they believe what they are doing is wrong. I can't say that with 100% accuracy. I did in my travels have people ask me to go with them to small villages in Asia so that they could find young girls 13-16, families happy to take in the income for the sale of sex with their child as that amount of money could be sometimes what they made in a whole year which could feed and educate some of the other children. I never did go with them on the excursions, and afterwards curtailed my business with them, but still again, judging family intentions, I am unable to.

Sweetpea · 03-08-2007, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

Again, I don't disagree with you. I'm stating that the people who have those beliefs disagree with you and find your morals imposing on them just as anyone else who makes judgements on other's morality.

I'm advocating that knowing that if I'm making the impostion it is equally fair for someone else to make the imposition upon me, and I have to be thick skinned enough to say,"Thank you for your opinion, no thank you.

ah, gotcha

opus123 · 03-14-2007, 03:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

I did in my travels have people ask me to go with them to small villages in Asia so that they could find young girls 13-16, families happy to take in the income for the sale of sex with their child as that amount of money could be sometimes what they made in a whole year which could feed and educate some of the other children. I never did go with them on the excursions, and afterwards curtailed my business with them, but still again, judging family intentions, I am unable to.

So you turned them in to the authorities ?

Jonathan

Cynthetiq · 03-14-2007, 04:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by opus123

So you turned them in to the authorities ?

Jonathan

I was not there to witness it. Just because someone said they were going to do something isn't enough proof that they did do such thing, especially if there is no evidence but hearsay.

Ourcrazymodern? · 03-14-2007, 03:14 PM

Spoken like a lawyer. When the older son still couldn't speak adequately and his mother was being sworn in, he asked her, "Mama, are you gonna be a liar today?"

Cynthetiq · 03-14-2007, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ourcrazymodern?

Spoken like a lawyer. When the older son still couldn't speak adequately and his mother was being sworn in, he asked her, "Mama, are you gonna be a liar today?"

So when you have a friend who says they smoked a joint, or drove home really drunk you called the police?

Ourcrazymodern? · 03-14-2007, 04:52 PM

Now THAT'S funny! For such a depressing thread it comes as a surprize!

I thought this was about our specie's inability to treat each other as equals and there you go giving gifts. Thankyou!

Willravel · 03-14-2007, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

Again, you point out exactly what I'm trying to say. Killing a human being is universally wrong, yet you are allowing it to be excused in our above statement.

How's that? I'm allowing murder to be excused? Just because I'm aware of something doesn't mean I have the power to control it. If I could end murder, I'd do it.

Cynthetiq · 03-14-2007, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

How's that? I'm allowing murder to be excused? Just because I'm aware of something doesn't mean I have the power to control it. If I could end murder, I'd do it.

sorry too many hairs to split to move this yet further away from the topic of Modern Day Slavery

Ourcrazymodern? · 03-14-2007, 05:50 PM

(coughing up furballs) As long as willing sellers and buyers are among us, and the planet is so large, what is this discussion accomplishing except upsetting the powerless verbose? Does anybody have any thoughts about what can be done beyond decrying?

Cynthetiq · 03-24-2007, 01:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ourcrazymodern?

(coughing up furballs) As long as willing sellers and buyers are among us, and the planet is so large, what is this discussion accomplishing except upsetting the powerless verbose? Does anybody have any thoughts about what can be done beyond decrying?

Here is an article about someone who saw something and reported it:

Quote:

'Sex tourist' gets 20 years for child porn
Round Rock man had 150 videotapes of child lewdness.

By Isadora Vail
AMERICAN-STATESMAN STAFF
Saturday, March 24, 2007

A 46-year-old Austin man who authorities say traveled the world to film children performing sex acts was sentenced to 20 years in prison Thursday on two counts of possessing child pornography.

In February 2006, Brian Raymond Gibson's housekeeper noticed videotapes in his bedroom with covers depicting children engaged in sex acts, Williamson County District Attorney John Bradley said. At the time, Gibson lived in Round Rock.

The housekeeper notified police, and investigators seized 150 tapes as well as DVDs, magazines, photographs and two computers, Bradley said.

Investigators found more than 8,500 images of child pornography on Gibson's computer, he said. None of the images or tapes appeared to depict local children, he said.

Some videos depicted European boys in hotel rooms who called the cameraman "Brian," Bradley said. Some photos depicted Asian boys engaged in lewd acts, officials said.

"This defendant appears to have been a sex tourist, traveling the world to take advantage of children," Bradley said. "We are grateful that a citizen took the time to report his crimes."

Investigators said Gibson's passport revealed a trip to the Czech Republic in 1996 and other trips to Russia, Cuba, the Netherlands and Thailand.

"It was sad, what he had accumulated over a number of years," Gibson's attorney Roy Minton said. "I don't understand why he had this interest. I consider it an illness."

Minton said that Gibson was a regional manager for Starbucks when the pornography was found.

Gibson didn't distribute any of the material over the Internet nor did he participate in any of the videos, Minton said.

Minton disagreed with Bradley that Gibson personally filmed the videos.

"He bought all this stuff in parts of the world where it is perfectly legal," Minton said.

Two other men were convicted this week for crimes against children in Central Texas through Texas Attorney General Greg Abbott's Cyber Crimes Unit:

•Jonathan Ward Brooke, 54, was convicted Wednesday in Kerr County of one count of solicitation of a minor online and was sentenced to five years in prison.

•Grant Matthew Peanick, 21, pleaded guilty Wednesday in Bastrop to one count of criminal solicitation of a minor. He was sentenced to five years' probation and must register as a sex offender.

ivail@statesman.com; 246-0053

Find this article at:
http://www.statesman.com/news/conten...extourist.html

"He bought all this stuff in parts of the world where it is perfectly legal," Minton said. And that is the reason why it will be hard to ever really stem the tide. There will always be someplace that turns a blind eye to this kind of thing in some capacity.

Jetée · 03-24-2007, 11:13 PM

I really don't know what to take from this. I'm in a state of bewilderment at the entire scope of the happenings in such poor countries like Cambodia.

I happen to have a really close friend of mine who is Cambodian. I am just vigorously thinking how this could affect my relationship with her. Would she know of these immoral practices? Did she have this sort of depravity happen to her? Did she move away to escape it all? Or could she be totally oblivious to the shady side of her home country?

It boggles the mind how we all can live on one world so full of stark contrasts of what is deemed to be morally right and ethical.

I'll go meditate on this and talk it out with strangers tomorrow. ~Jets

Cynthetiq · 03-30-2007, 11:54 AM

I was reading an article about Ricky Martin and him supporting gay musicians coming out of the closet, when I stumbled upon this tidbit:

[QUOTE]He said his nonprofit Ricky Martin Foundation inspires him in his songwriting. One of the foundation's programs, People for Children, works toward the elimination of human trafficking, especially trafficking of children./QUOTE]

I looked up what the site had to offer, and a couple quotes:

Quote:

Since People for Children was launched in 2004 to combat human trafficking, with special emphasis on children’s exploitation, Ricky Martin Foundation has positioned itself among the global community as a respected and influential voice to denounce this abominable crime where 1.2 million children fall victim of this global nightmare, year after year. We serve as catalysts for awareness-raising efforts on the grave issues regarding child exploitation and human trafficking.

Quote:

Rescue & Restore Victims of Human Trafficking

In June 2005, The Ricky Martin Foundation partnered with the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) to combat human trafficking. The national public awareness campaign dubbed Rescue & Restore Victims of Human Trafficking consists of Spanish and English PSA’s, featuring Mr. Martin for television and radio that include a hotline number that enables citizens in the United States as well as in Puerto Rico to denounce this crime. It also provides assistance to potential victims.

With this campaign we strengthened our role as educators in this taboo subject and encourage citizens to act. The bilingual call to action also allowed the public to denunciate human trafficking as well as provide victims support from experts.

After the partnership with HHS, our role as advocates gained international recognition in Latin America. Various countries requested our voice in their call to action efforts in the region to deter this crime.

JOIN US AND CALL 1-888-373-7888
TO DETER HUMAN TRAFFICKING.

opus123 · 04-29-2007, 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

So when you have a friend who says they smoked a joint, or drove home really drunk you called the police?

I would call the police on my mother, father, or friend if they were driving drunk, but smoking a joint at home should be legal so I don't call police for that, but if my friend smoked a few joints and drove off, then yes I would call 911. Yesterday I saw a big black truck tear out of an apartment complex and almost hit another car. Then the truck stopped at a red turn arrow and then just punch on thru it and almost hit another car, so I called 911 and reported it. My other friend (13 years ago) was doing crystal and not eating properly, so I called her parents and told them what was going on. They thanked me for caring about their daughter and said they would look into it. Thankfully I have not been put into too many hard situations like witness a murder or burglary etc...

Jonathan

03-14-2007, 03:14 PM	#54 (permalink)
Ourcrazymodern? still, wondering. Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge	Spoken like a lawyer. When the older son still couldn't speak adequately and his mother was being sworn in, he asked her, "Mama, are you gonna be a liar today?" __________________ BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

03-14-2007, 04:52 PM	#56 (permalink)
Ourcrazymodern? still, wondering. Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge	Now THAT'S funny! For such a depressing thread it comes as a surprize! I thought this was about our specie's inability to treat each other as equals and there you go giving gifts. Thankyou! __________________ BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

03-14-2007, 05:50 PM	#59 (permalink)
Ourcrazymodern? still, wondering. Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge	(coughing up furballs) As long as willing sellers and buyers are among us, and the planet is so large, what is this discussion accomplishing except upsetting the powerless verbose? Does anybody have any thoughts about what can be done beyond decrying? __________________ BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

03-07-2007, 10:23 PM	#46 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	The point I was trying to make, Cynth, was that some morals are so universal that the idea of imposing them really should be the last thing to consider. Take, for example, murder of children. I think that, except for a few extreme and long gone times and places, everyone can agree that murdering a child in cold blood is very, very wrong. I think these people know what they are doing is wrong, but do it anyway because they can get away with it. If we were to stop them, we would not be stripping them of their morals or imposing morals on them that they didn't have before we stepped in.

03-24-2007, 11:13 PM	#61 (permalink)
Jetée The Reforms Location: Rarely, if ever, here or there, but always in transition	I really don't know what to take from this. I'm in a state of bewilderment at the entire scope of the happenings in such poor countries like Cambodia. I happen to have a really close friend of mine who is Cambodian. I am just vigorously thinking how this could affect my relationship with her. Would she know of these immoral practices? Did she have this sort of depravity happen to her? Did she move away to escape it all? Or could she be totally oblivious to the shady side of her home country? It boggles the mind how we all can live on one world so full of stark contrasts of what is deemed to be morally right and ethical. I'll go meditate on this and talk it out with strangers tomorrow. ~Jets