Sadaam is hanged
 

News reports tell us that Sadaam Hussein, former president of Iraq, has been executed, in accordance to the verdict that was delivered at his trial. What do you think about the effect upon the Iraqi people - relief or not?

Umm, I guess i cant answer that 'cause I'm not in Iraq... ... ?

It won't end the insurgency.

out of the frying pan, into the fire
anticlimax
too bad the war isn't over now
:| :mad:

Put yourself in Iraqi folks' places - how would you feel? Not asking about insurgencies, not asking about the war. How would THEY feel?

(ps wowy, never had Hal on one of the few threads I've done. Feel the honor waves.....)

Okay, I'm in the Iraqi's shoes. The insurection will not end or even relent because of this. If anything there is a hollow sense of vengence or justice, but it really is nothing but a useless exercise that doesn't make current life any better. My power is still going in and out, food is scarce, military officers go up and down my street every day and every night, and I wonder when or if the fighting will ever stop.

Again, it won't end the insurgency.

Interestingly enough, some of his last statements were a call for the Iraqi people to reach peace.


Oh well. He was a horrible criminal. He had a much more civil end than he gave many of his enemies.

This seems like yesterday's news that doesn't affect/help todays problems. But the Iraqis lived with this man as their ruler for some years....so I imagine they have some kind of feelings....

Somehow, Willravel, I don't thing the millions of Shiites and Kurds who suffered so greatly under his tyrannical rule are right now thinking about how the insurgency is going - I just think they are pretty much happy that he is gone.

Sometimes in the midst of hardship there is joy to be found. Perhaps the victims of Sadaam's reign are now finding that measure of joy, even amongst the danger that finds them in everyday life.

Don't ya think? I mean, he killed how many Kurds by gassing them, and the Shiites by dessimating their villages?

Insurgency will remain, but for today, Sadaam is dead, and for that - they can rejoice.

I can't speak for Iraqis, but I say good riddance.

one more death... [sarcasm]hurray[/sarcasm]

Soooo... Who's killed more innocent Iraqis? Saddam or Bush?

I'd be willing to bet it's the latter.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/...ush/index.html

I 'spose I have a different meaning of the word "Fair" than everyone else. Saddam was found guilty even before the trial began. I don't think there was a single person in the world who thought the verdict was going to be different than what it was.

Ah well... The way I see it, all the United States did was replace one dictatorship with another, while in the process destabilized Iraq's economy for the next twenty or so years.

I don't know why but for some reason I felt like he shouldn't be executed. I KNOW that he should be feel like he shouldn't, very odd.

I kind of miss him already.

"What would Bob say about this?"

I don't think death is the answer to death, he was merely a political tool anyways. There were greater things at work behind his actions than a mere madman that he was portrayed as.

"I call on you not to hate because hate does not leave space for a person to be fair and it makes you blind and closes all doors of thinking" - Saddam Hussien

I'm generally not in favour of the death penalty nor was I in favour of the American aggression in Iraq - however, having reached this point, I think ending Saddam's existence became a neccessary step towards Iraq moving forward.

Since I don't believe in the death penalty, I think that the hanging is sad. To me death does not justify death. He will be dealt with on a much higher level then any human hand could do.

Ding dong the dick is dead!

If I werent going to work I would have a glass of wine, since I am going to work I will have my glass of wine this evening.

There are such an amount of problems in Iraq; no one event can make a difference. The conviction and death of Saddam doesn't address the lack of security, basic services, or governmental influence.

I believe some folks thought/think that a criminal process of trying and convicting a former dictator would be a galvanizing event. Instead, it's a sorry postscript.

I'm not saying he didn't deserve the death penalty--handed down by in a fair trial by an impartial tribunal. The trial he received was a total joke, the sentence a foregone conclusion, and the tribunal a puppet of the US occupiers. The ends don't justify the means. There was no justice done here.

I'd bet anything that Saddam's Sunni brethren will be stepping up their attacks, now that they have the great martyr Saddam to rally around. This is exactly how violence begets violence, which is a lesson we seem hell-bent on not learning.

Sorry, but that's crazy thinking. Death justifies death. Period. The other alternatives are to let them go, and then they'll kill again, or put them in a life sentence in jail to cost the taxpayers $35k/yr here in America. Probably less in other parts of the world, but still. If you kill somebody, you should get killed back by the law agencies. NO exceptions.

How is it anything more than a postscript to what's already happened? Maybe it will cause a temporary surge in violence, maybe not. Whether your for or against the death penalty, it doesn't change anything, especially since Iraqi law allows for it.

Unless this is the thing that unleases fullblown civil war, I honestly don't see it as that big of a deal. It was a forgone conclusion from the day they found him in the spider hole.

more repulsive theater of the absurd from the bush administration.

what i am amazed at is the newspaper coverage this morning: the huge typeface, the cheerleading in the writing, the use of this particularly ambiguous moment as a tool for re-marketing the bushwar in iraq. you'd almost get the impression that the execution has nothing to do with iraq, and is more a spectacle aimed at generating a nice little new years poll bump for the bush people as they prepare to face The Enemy--you know, the next congress with the slim democrat majority.



i expect this will only serve to intensify opposition on the ground to american colonial occupation. creating a martyr never helps. at least with hussein alive, one could pretend that the internal struggles over succession prevented the resistance from focusing on the occupation: this move could well change that.....but who knows. it is obviously difficult to peer through the hall of mirrors that shapes american infotainment about iraq and get an idea of what is happening on the ground.

People? Probably! Iraqis? I doubt it! A large number of insurgents are not even Iraqis. Many of those we're fighting over there are outsiders trying to make a point.

I'm going to also have to disagree with you. I don't find "an eye for an eye" to be barbaric at all. Perhaps there will be divine justice invoked, perhaps not. Since we have no assurance of such, or understanding of how such a thing might work, serving justice here on Earth, where we can be certain that it occurs is acceptable. In fact, it's partly a good deterrent. It's partly good for everyone else's sanity to know that bad things really DO happen to bad people. It's good that those bad people do not become a drain on the resources of good people.

I got on AIM with some friends over there, both US military and Iraqi civilian, and they are kinda treating this like the elections. Yes, it's good that it happened, but the prevelant discussions are all about ongoing problems. Saddam's removal from power was rejoiced once upon a time, and cheering and dancing filled the streets. That's just not going on anymore. When Saddam was overthrown, there was a general sigh of releif and hope was back in Iraq for the fist time in 30 years. That hope isn't there anymore.

It's kinda like being sick on your birthday. You're happy to get the cake but you still feel like shit.

I read an interesting article in Foreign Affairs a few months ago that described the level of cluelessness that Saddam Hussein was ruling under, as a result of his informants being terrified of telling him bad news.

As for the execution, I don't know enough details about the trial and process of ruling to comment on it intelligently. I will admit I am surprised he was executed, as it seems it's a more common trend to lock these guys up for life, but not kill them.

How will it affect those in Iraq? No idea. I'd imagine they have mixed views just as other cultures do.

One of the first articles I saw reporting Saddam's death said something like, "After the hanging, gunfire, presumably celebratory, was heard in Baghdad."

.... "Presumably celebratory"? How could you tell the celebratory gunfire apart from all the OTHER gunfire in Baghdad these days? And what bald-faced editorialist is doing the presuming, exactly??

They should have chopped off his head and put it on a pike.


Just for kicks.

I don't think that anyone sees the hanging as a great thing, I mean he's gone but it doesn't solve any of their problems. Hopefully now people will concentrate on the real issues at hand. The whole Iraq issue will not be solved by one person dieing. It won't be solved by any number of people dieing.

As for the arguements that the trial was not fair: Think about it. Would a truly impartial group of people find him innocent? I would like to think not. And if they didn't chose the death penalty, Iraqis would be stuck paying for this guy to sit in a cell for the rest of his life (that's not cheap). So I think it is for the best.

we still shouldn't kill, at some point, we will know, for a fact, that we did execute an innocent person (sadam excluded) on that day, we all will be murders, and all deserve to die. if its to expensive, we need to stop giving them so much, cut there food with saw dust, put them to work.

I could not possibly agree with you more. Working prisoners instead of killing them is an excellent option, and state sponsered executions in an imperfect system means we always run the risk of killing the innocent.

If Saddam's people were less like sheep they'd have taken care of this long ago. Of course, sheep are not afraid, being very dim.
He was a wolf and I'm glad he's dead...good riddance.

So your going to celebrate over a man who killed thousands, tortured as many, and was eventually killed, himself, by hanging? That's sick (as in disgusting).
He was guilty of his crimes, but why does it make you guys happy? Its not like killing him cancels out all the people who died on his account. That people would rejoice over a man being executed is something I think is terribly off-balance and wrong.

Well, obviously.

However, people forget the US government promised the Kurds that if they attempted revolt against Saddam Hussein, we would assist the Kurds. We didnt lift a finger. In an indirect way, we caused that slaughter.

I dont think it is a good thing at all, to be perfectly honest. Killing one man may kill thousands more. Not worth it at all.

It will not only remain, it will increase. And I refuse to rejoice in an action that will cause a lot more problems.

There is nothing good to be gained in this eye-for-an-eye spectacle, only more violence.

I think both Dilbert and willravel made good points here. There are other, better ways to deal with criminals than the death penalty.

TY, can you imagine if we made Saddam work to rebuild Iraq? Working on a highway, building a hospital, or maybe handing out food.

Yeah, that'd never happen. You'd end up with the same result anyways. Tell him do this work or die...you just delay the death a few days.

Just say he's locked up and put him in a good disguse.

Edit: does your cutlass really have 270 hp?

Hell just had a cold spike…

Thanks onesnowyowl, I never see justification for killing someone who is subdued, unarmed, and no longer a threat. As for if they don’t want to work, give prisoners the least amount of food, shelter to get by, nothing more, if they work, they get things, work hard, more food, and more shelter. They are cooperative, hard workers, ‘model prisoners’ give them a TV or something like that.

I believe that, in treating other people the way that he did, in taking away their humanity, he lost the right to claim his.

I'm glad he's dead because he deserved to die. And I don't believe very many people deserve to die.

I have to admit I had an uncomfortable feeling when I read the article this mornig and saw the photo of him with the noose around his neck. And I've been a supporter of the death penalty.

I do think that, if we really did things right, we'd put those bastards on death row to work doing crap they hate for the people they wronged. Work to eat or dont' eat. Make enough working to cover your keep or you get tossed in a spot comensurate with your work. We'd have to get past the ACLU to make that happen and all the PC crap but it sure would be realistic.

For anyone interested:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...34279766935521

I'm sorry xepherys, I can find no record of US military commanders in Iraq who back your opinion, indeed...there was no proven "foreign terrorists presence" in Iraq in areas that Saddam controlled in the months after 9/11, but there is a reliable record of reports of terrorists in camps in areas controlled by the Kurds and their American allies:

Whoa, that's the real deal. You might want to label it more clearly in case anyone is squeamish about seeing an execution video.

Frankly, that video doesn't do much to raise my hopes about the new government. They're hanging him in some random, small, dingy-looking building, his executioners just look like a random bunch of masked thugs, and there's no discipline in evidence in the entire scene; camera flashes keep going off, the men keep repeating religious chants, and at least one person got the whole thing on their cameraphone.

agreed...

suffer, you insensitive bastard...

The video doesn't show much. The whole ordeal doesn't seem very official though. I assumed that a figure of such fame and notoriety would receive an execution that looked a little more professionally, or perhaps officially, done.

Also, from the looks of the closing shots, it seemed his neck snapped, and I'm curious if that was intentionally done to prevent the struggle that results from strangulation. The noose appeared to be fastened to the side, and I wonder if that increases the chances of a broken neck instead of strangulation?

That's the sense I got as well.

As if it was done in a back alley, chaotic and random, without legal decree, without any sense of central authority, without any sense of law or order, without any sense of progress. Instead, we get dark, creepy, hooded motherfuckers in street clothes scuttling about in the dark, chanting religious incantations.

It should have been done in front of the lights, center stage, pomp and circumstance, starched uniforms, official state ceremony, crowds of his victims' families, with members of the legitimately elected Iraqi government looking on.

Maybe if the 'Saddam is hanged - How about his accomplices ?' thread that I started in this forum had not been moved to the "P" word forum, it would be easier to find it and some of the answers that are provided there.

Saddam knew where all of the bodies were buried, i.e., who his accomplices were, and what they promised him and did for him to facilitate his crimes against humanity. This goes a long way to explain the isolation that he was kept in and the swift execution of his sentence in the dark of night. The folks who brought about "justice" for Saddam have hands nearly as unclean as his are.

It is probably better for you, if you've voted for and supported some of his accomplices, that his incarceration, trial, and execution were handled in this way. Since you are still wondering why he was quickly executed in the manner that was reported, I ssupect that you don't know why because you've chosen to avoid knowing.

Strongly AGREE.

Totally not the point. The point is, an impartial and fair trial would remove, beyond the shadow of a doubt, the stench of US manipulation on the outcome. It would have left the verdict and sentence invulnerable to rhetorical attack in the future. As it was done, the result is extremely vulnerable to questions in the future.

That depends greatly on the next 25-30 years of US history. If, by some mericle, the US is able to remain a superpower, it's possible that it'll be too late to truely question the then history books becuase those currently in power and their future replacements will have smudged or even removed so much information about it.

I'm generally against the death penalty, but having tyrants be killed does not necessarily bother me that much. However I have several issues with this..

The trial seemed highly inadequate and unprofessional, and then the execution seemed messy and overly swift. There was so much more crimes that he did that needed to be covered (that he should have been sued for), from the gassing of the Kurds to the quelling of the Shia uprisings to the fate of the Marsh Arabs.

Unfortunately now it just looks like a quick execution because they did not know what to do with the man. It is an execution borne out of weakness and fear rather than strength and justice.

And though I don't think his execution will necessarily make things much worse (I mean, things are quite terrible right now) I certainly don't see it as being helpful.

He was a horrible man, and his death, though something I cannot celebrate (I would've been more than satisfied with him living in a tiny cell for the rest of his days), is not something that saddens me. What does saddens me is the way it was done, which seems counter-productive and in a perverted way enhances his legacy in some circles.

There is no way that the US will not be blamed for every little thing that happens there, the trial of Saddam is no exception. No matter how it is handled there will be talk to the US tainting it. I'm not saything that the US isn't at fault or that they're not doing things that they shouldn't but even if the trial was truly impartial and fair, no one would believe it because people like to blame other people.

By the way you guys have interesting ideas for alternatives to the death penalty but I don't see them working. You would have to get alot of laws changed before you could put inmates to work like someone said. It would be called "cruel and unusual punishment." Sure, innocent people could get killed, and probably have but I believe that the death penalty remains one of the most efficient ways of dealing with true criminals.

I love the way you think!

YES I am! If this make me the new antichrist then so be it.

No, it doesnt bring back the dead. What it does do is keep him from killing again.

I suppose just to make everyone feel warm and fuzzy inside we should let all the people on death row go. Let them rape pillage and burn to their hearts content. Perhaps after a few people in your family are harmed by them youll want us to go ahead and kill them as planned. At which point I would chuckle and say no.

Adopt a killer! Take it home with you, look after the killer and show them the proper way to live! Perhaps by being with you and seeing the error of their ways they can.... do you see how insane that is? Best we killed em.

Isis! I see getting castigated has only galvanized your thinking. Me, too.
The shadow of a doubt often dims the view, but in the case of (he who is now gone) I don't think there was one. Happy New Year!

Lady Sage,

(John 8:7), "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her."
Why do you trust anyone to condemn anyone else and execute them? Certainly the American politicians who were in league with Saddam were not of the moral standing to oversee his trial and play the roll that they played in his execution.

Consider that their motivation was to silence him to insure that he would never be a witness against them with regard to the crimes that they helped/directed him to commit.

A mod made it more difficult to find the citations to the evidence that I've posted to support my point, but it's there if you'll look for it.

In the US, this group has exposed the lack of integrity in death penalty prosecutions across the country:
http://www.innocenceproject.org/

The wealthy and politically connected never receive the same justice, with regard to the death penalty, as the common man does. I've posted evidence that Mr. Rumsfeld, and his successor, Mr. Gates, aided Saddam to a degree that qualifies them to be arrested and tried for crimes against humanity. Gates was just approved by the senate....rubber stamped to oversee the world's most powerful military, and it's intelligence apparatus, after he was designated for that position by a POTUS who should himself be tried for crimes against humanity, specifically the crime of instigating war of aggression.

Just so you know.....

Good thing I am not christian and therefore do not believe a word of it. No offense intended.

Personally he had it too easy. He tortured people yet met a swift end. Would have made me happier if he would have met his end in a more... rustic punnishment with much screaming and begging and blood and guts.

Killind Saddam is like popping a zit. You still know it was there but it feels a whole lot better now that its gone. I believe I am due to be crucified now. Have at it, beat me good!

There are only 2 people on the planet that I will celebrate more heartily when they die.

Now I'm REALLY wondering. Who are the 2?

I don’t think any sane person suggests releasing people on death row, (unless proven innocent) but killing is still wrong. We should give them the rest of there life to prove there innocents, no I don’t think sadam can prove his innocence’s; I think he is guilty as sin, but killing is still wrong.

No offense taken....the biblical reference was an exercise intended to stimulate your thinking.....an example of the hypocrisy of a "christian" nation that fully endorses the death penalty, not an attempt to convert you....

Wouldn't a more just, enlightening, and more beneficial turn of events have been watching Saddam testify before a senate committee....offering verifiable proof of the collaboration of American politicians and their appointees in knowingly enabling his crimes?

Picture Saddam detailing the contents of private messages he received during the 1980's from Reagan and Bush '41, or the intelligence reports from the CIA that they authorized him to have, enabling him to most effectively target Iranian troops in the war of aggression that he initiated, with the blessing of the US. How about his provision of details of a meeting he allegedly had with Carter's NSA chief, Bzrezinski, where he presented a "wish list" of American weaponry that he desired on the eve of beginning his war against Iran?

....or how much help he got from the US in devloping and deploying chemical and biological weapons, besides what has already been reported, or what encouragement he received from US ambassador Glaspie, in 1990, on the eve of his invasion of Kuwait?

If you believe that Saddam would not have made a credible witness, consider that he was cunning and intelligent enough to point to places where evidence of the reliability of his testimony, in many cases, could have been obtained.

A trial in an international court had the potential to pave the way for revelations of this kind, as opposed to the closed nature of how he was prosecuted and executed, under isolated American controlled "lock down", until his final moments. Who do you suppose benefitted most from Saddam's inaccessibility? Could it be those who defined the circumstances of his confinement, trial, and execution.

....and the revelation of the circumstances that allowed him access to spare oil field service parts and technical support, from Cheney's Haliburton during the years of the UN sanctions....the list of potential questions goes on and on, and the rushed, undignified execution of a man with the potential to reveal who among us, shares his deadly dysfunctional behavior....folks like....possibly former CIA director, and current DOD secretary, Gates, VP Cheney, and president Bush's own father, is not as trivial an act as popping a "zit" !

If Saddam were not given the death penalty, does that mean no one under him could recieve it?
A jury by your peers is best, and it does not require outsiders to pass judgement.
It's not important that Saddam dies, its important that the political machine he was a part of does.
I do worry whether Iraq was ready to carry out its own brand of justice, but that is on them.

The "sovereign" Iraqi state endured the spectacle of their former "evil dictator's" execution carried out on a US military base in the heart of the Iraqi capitol.

The highest Iraqi elected official brought the body of the executed man into his own office, after the execution, for a private "reception"....

The man who committed what the Nuremberg chief US prosecutor, Justice Robert Jackson described as the most serious crime against humanity, the crime of "aggressive war", by ordering an unprovoked invasion and occupation of Iraq by the US military, had recently flown to his Crawford, TX ranch, and knowing that Hussein would soon be executed, wanted the press to report to the world that he was already sound asleep in his bed, by 9:00 PM CST when the execution of Hussein was carried out.....asleep to the point where he was not "roused" to be informed....

Just some things for you to think about....before you "know what you know"!

Executioners have always worn masks/hoods for identity protection. The video quality is low and that could be the result of the low lighting.

Yup...there is an explanation for everything....nothing about this execution is extraordinary....our leaders are the models of legitimacy....how could they, or their judgment be illegitimate or dysfunctional ??
.....sounds "legit", above board, official and respectful to me....no, wait !!! It smells..... it sinks us as low as those we accuse and judge, IMO. If we buy into this, it might even make us bigger hypocrites than those we condemn.

Are we ordering our own troops to kill and die because we mistakenly plunged our military into the midst of a civil war ? Will we be shooting at the side we were backing on the day we executed Saddam on a US military base, in a country that our president declared as "sovereign", 2-1/2 years ago, today?

Is it justice, or "victors justice"....there's a difference.......

It doesn't just increase the chances, it's a whole technique.

If the noose is placed at the back of the neck, the victim dies a slow, miserable death from asphyxiation. The whole eye-bulging, bowels-vacating, death-ejaculating mess, that can take upwards of 10-15 minutes. If the noose is placed at the side, the weight of the body at the bottom of the fall snaps the neck and death is instantaneous and (relatively) dignified.

In the middle ages, it was common to tip your executioner to ensure you got the latter kind of hanging. Also, according to Neal Stephenson, some enterprising youths made good money clinging to the legs of hanged men, to help kill them quickly.

90 percent in the US were once in favor of invading Iraq, and now is a time for introspection....so we can avoid making the same mistakes again.....
Contrast yesterday with this:
.....the point is that the "something dark and fetid" did not "die" with Saddam, yesterday. It is alive in our leaders, in the hooded executioners who yelled "moktada", at Saddam, in his final moments, interrupting his attempt to pray, and, I fear...it is very much alive in the blind sentiments of too many Americans....

I have seen the video, and had about a day to think on it, and this is how I feel.....

First, he deserved to die, whoever else was also culpable, he deserved what he got.....

Despite this, I found the execution to be somehow not right, it just did not sit well with me, and I could not figure out why- THEN it hit me- What was important here was the way in which it was done, the FACT that of the people present he was the only one who appeared unafraid and unbowed, that the whole thing seemed like a back alley operation based on the idea that they had better kill him quick before something stops them- it was as if they were affraid of him, not that they had brought him to justice....

Lessons learned- Do not make an enemies execution undignified, on the chance that he will look dignified himself because of it.

Do not go about the cause of justice in the dark dingy undisclosed locations, but publicly, and with pride in Justice...(yes, I know public spectacles should be avoided, but have you seen the tape/photos )

The difference between justice and revenge is a thin line, and has a lot to do with how it looks- a uniformed firing squad in a well lit courtyard would have looked more like justice- this looked like revenge, and has probably made a martyr of a murderer......

Finally, if we go to the trouble to make an enemy look like a dangerous monster, a "Lion" as it were, then we should not kill him like a dog, because as stated above, he still looks to many like a lion......

So at the end of it all i am all for killing him, but all against how it was done.....

I am curious about why the camera shot was lowered to the ground after he was dropped/hung. Was it out of respect, or just a result of jostling?

I am far more interested in the nuances and intricacies of the actual execution than the issue of whether he should have been executed or not.

Was the audience generally against, or in support of, him? What was he saying in his final moments? Where specifically did it take place, and how publicized was the location?

The setting and experience is fascinating to me. If one of those in the room at the time were a proficient writer and would put their experiences into words, I'd be very interested to read it.

Truly repellent, and with such ignorance. If you only knew how hypocritical your words were... or, maybe you do. Either way, you are not worthy of survival, and I hope we never meet.

people don't realize how savage they are.

Host is probably one of the only people in this thread who hits on the information you should REALLy get to know before you pass judgement, unfortunately his presentation isn't direct and "in your face" enough for this MTV generation to notice.

I'm just at a loss for words really. It makes none of you any better of a man or woman to wish upon him his death. He's dead now. If you truely held life as a sacred thing, you would let it pass without spite. If a man has done evil deeds, then so be it, you can recognize that without gloating and celebrating death.

How fabulously hypocritical of you good sir to threaten a woman who has done you no harm. Exactly when have I attacked you in a way to deserve this one from you? :mad:

Ch'i, what a noise you've made! It was nearly violent...:confused:

There are no threats in my words, violent or otherwise. You've spoken volumes on your character in this thread, and I've found it to be despicable.

Threaten? I'd venture to guess it was more anger and disapointment than anything else. I very seriously doubt that Ch'i means you any harm, in fact I doubt he means anyone harm, being a pacifist. I don't mean to speak for Ch'i, but I think he means to make very clear that he strongly, strongly disagrees with you. Torture is evil no matter who is being tortured, and the death penalty is evil because it serves no purpous but vengence.

Precisely.

I do not begrudge anyone their point of view. Nor do I mind being viewed as the proverbial antichrist. Truthfully, I find it funny how one view could make me such a bad person. :lol:

I will not however view the posts of someone who types to me in such a way. I find it sad since someone I once admired has now made the list.

Grow up you two,

Lady Sage:

That is offensive to people who think no one deserves to die; I know you did not mean to offend, you just feel very strongly, and believe, that all the harm he has done makes him deserve the death penalty.

Ch'i:

Ch'I, Ch'I, Ch'i…. calling people ignorant is no was to win an argument, its how more people get killed. Even though we believe that killing was not justified under this circumstance, it is still the law in that country, and in parts of ours, and we must be respectful of the laws. We should fight to change the laws, but legally.

Come on now, group hug.

I give kudos for Host, Mr Ravel and you as well Dilbert and a few others. Thank you for stating your replies the way you did and thank you as well for not taking mine personally.

You stated your views in a very non personal way. I stated mine in a non personal way as well. I did not expect everyone to like them, nor did I expect to like everyone elses.

If Hitler had lived there may very well be no Jews left on the planet. I suppose that would have been alright in some peoples eyes. I am not a violent person. Some people, however, do deserve to die. This is not to say that I, myself, would kill them.

I did not like Saddam, nor did I love him. I do not feel pain at his death. It didnt make me lose any sleep. I do not and will not mourn him. I can not even prove that the person who was hung WAS in fact Saddam. I do however feel better knowing that if in fact the person who was dispatched was him, he can no longer harm any more people.

Now, let us bring our men and women home. It is my hope that his death signals the beginning of the end of our involvement in Iraq.

I'm not trying to win an argument. Lady Sage is someone I hold in contempt for her rash point of view. I do not repect it, will always despise it and fight it to my last breath. Ignorance, in her case, emphasized the exact meaning of her sentiment. I cannot stand people who would justify such a depraved retrospect.

thanks

Well no, if we go back, instead of Hitler killing himself, and instead, locking him up in jail, we would still have Jews, he instigated the movement, and was responsible for many deaths, as is Saddam, but killing him would not stop future murders, nor would it stop those of the past. Imagine all the things we could have learned if he was still alive, maybe we could have found more concentration camps sooner, saving lives, maybe he would become like Stanley Tookie Williams III, one of the founders of the Crips, Tookie was convicted of several cold blooded murders, and was placed in jail on death row, he eventually fixed his ways, he became an outspoken opponent of violence and started writing children’s books, he has been nominated for 5 Nobel peace prizes. Hitler could have also reformed, or been an outspoken proponent of violence, we don’t know. However, if he was in jail, for the rest of his life, he could no longer hurt anyone ever again.

The sad thing is this is not about saddam, the insurgents are not fighting us because of saddam; they are fighting us because we are in their country.

And if you don’t respect her point of view, how do you intend to change it. Change comes through debate, or through force. Since you are apposed to force, debate is the only other way. If you are not willing to have a civil discussion where can we go from here, things will not change if we don’t try to change them. Lady Sage joined my group hug, come on Ch’I.

Mr. Dilbert. There are many ways of making a ham sandwich. There are many ways of dealing with a problem as well.

I accept that you do not agree with my celebration and I respect that.
In turn I shall respectfully agree to disagree with you.

Shall we have a nice diet pepsi and ham sandwich to celebrate our group hug? :)

How about a mineral water with a bit of cranberry juice in it and an organic salad? Some of us have new year's resolutions. :thumbsup:

. . . . . . . . . .

pfft diet Pepsi, now I don’t respect you... ;)

I used to be pro death penalty, and I have no problem with killing someone who is a threat. If Saddam came out shooting, drop him. However, I am adamantly apposed to the death penalty because of prosecutorial misconduct, innocent people are placed on death row, and one day we will know for a fact we have executed an innocent person, on that day we are all murderers. Saddam, was guilty as sin though, but I just don’t think more death solves anything.

i agree with what host said above and find that i have little to add to it.

the range of responses in this thread is interesting: i have not been particularly shocked by any of it, chocking it up to difficulties that accompany anyone's efforts to look at fiasco squarely.

if you exclude any coherent pretense to justice having been served here--justice being a function of proper procedures having been followed in a context generally understood to be legitimate--none of which applies in this case, no matter what you think about saddam hussein--the remaining considerations are political. this article from today's guardian is fairly eloquent:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,1980909,00.html

what most sunnis find the most offensive is the fact that he was hung on one of the holiest days on the islamic calender, Eid al-Adha. its like putting a war criminal like bush or milosovic to hang on christmas day.

justice to all the victims.

That's a really good point (and something that probably should have occoured to me....good catch!). I think this was meant as a way to break the spirit of some of the fighters because the idiots in Washington think that the insurgency was pro-Saddam.

What happened to military intellegence?

Ahh the greatest oxymoron of all time. :D

I have some leftover ham.

I guess, to be honest, I'm shocked at the speed at which it happened. However, I think there are a lot of good questions about the way, time, etc that it was carried out on that need to be answered.

My personal opinion? Not entirely sure. I haven't decided how I feel about the death penalty, especially the death penalty in another country where I don't know how they carry about with their trials/processes. I can say though, that I don't agree with it in the US, so I doubt it would make any sense for me to agree with it anywhere else.

A friend of mine who is a conspiracy theorist speculates that the video was staged and edited, and that Saddam is not really dead. The camera shot is lowered, then the video edited with pictures of a dummy corpse.

I think he's a nutcase myself.

I have seen the video, and I felt uncomfortable watching it the whole way through. It was disturbing knowing that I was watching a man about to die, and then watching the actual moment.

he is guilty of gassing the Kurds with chemical weapons

fact

that makes him a murderer

in his country, under his laws, he is liable to be hanged

and this is what has happened

a fitting end for him, I say

yes he is a murderer, I have no doubt in my mind, and yes it does fit with the laws of the countries (although I’m sure there is a clause that says dictators are above the law...) it is their country and they have a right to dispatch justice how they see fit, however, I still disagree with the death penalty in general. However, things start to get gray, the Kurds were killed under Iraqi law, legally, how do we punish someone who obeyed the laws of the land; are we more moral then they are (I think we are) but this does not answer the question, we applied our law to him, and he was found guilty of breaking our laws. He is a murderer under our standards, and was punished by his law.

Not to say I don’t think the world is better off with him gone.

3000 of our citizens have been killed....and this is what we have to show for it.

3000 of our citizens were killed on 9/11 ......and we have....nothing to show for it.


I am somewhat dissapoined, call me strange.

Yes, Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11. Ossama is still ... somewhere. The towers aren't even being rebuilt yet over 5 years later. I'd not call you strange for recognizing that our wound is still open and those that truely inflicted it are still free as birds.

All the things we can do and all of the gadets we have and we still cant find a 6'5 arab hooked to his luggage. I am definately not a happy camper about such.

Good point Mr. Will. I hope he meets a very messy and painful end in whatever way the cosmos has in mind for him.

The CIA, MI6 and Packistan's Inter-Services all paid and trained Osama bin Laden and his fellow fighters as they fought with the Afghan Mujaheddin from the 80s into the 90s in order to attack soviet republics of Tajikistan and Uzbekistan. We made the "terrorist camps" that trained thousands of men who were for all intents and purpouses Islamic reigious zealots that we galvanized. We helped them attack Soviets. We gave them stinger missles and trained them to use them.

We did this to ourselves by being frighteningly short sighted. We brought together thousands of radical militants and used them to fight our enemy while exploiting them and we didn't see that there would be consequences? Jesus Christ. A 2-year-old could figure this stuff out.

Bottom line: if you think Osama bin Laden should be brought to justice, then you should probably group our own intelligence community in with him for being responsible for current global, islamic-radical terrorism.

"Is this the bravery of Arab men?"

Love him or hate him, you have to give the son of a bitch credit for never backing down.

Oh well, one less asshole in the world.