Sadaam is hanged - Page 4 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Lady Sage · 01-03-2007, 11:30 AM

It costs so much more because we have that whole hurry up and appeal bull crap.

mixedmedia · 01-03-2007, 11:39 AM

Oh, I see. So the solution is only to kill them faster? Leaving the system open to even more incompetence and injustice than it has exhibited before? Making the system even more obviously slanted in favor of those who can afford to provide themselves with a superior defense in court?

Lady Sage · 01-03-2007, 11:52 AM

With as incriminating as DNA evidence is these days I hardly find that the case. Then again, OJ got off.

Maybe Saddam was innocent.

Miss Mango · 01-03-2007, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soccerchamp76

For anyone interested:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...34279766935521

Iraqis arrest men over Saddam hanging video

Quote:

BAGHDAD, Iraq - Iraqs national security adviser told NBC News on Wednesday that three individuals have been arrested in connection with a video of Saddam Husseins execution that was leaked.

“I can officially now confirm the arrest of three individuals in the case of the execution of Saddam Hussein,” said Iraqi national security adviser Mowaffak al-Rubaie.

The arrests came after the announcement that officials were interrogating the person suspected of recording Saddam’s hanging via a mobile phone.

Long article continued here: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13259309/

mixedmedia · 01-03-2007, 12:01 PM

There is not always DNA evidence. What then?

Lady Sage · 01-03-2007, 12:11 PM

Eye witnesses, probable cause, evidence take your pick.

I still stand behind the adopt-a-terrorist movement. People who think we treat war prisoners badly or are terribly unjust should adopt one. Show them the proper way to live. Assuming they dont kill their adoptive families. If they do we should turn our other cheek though. They didnt know any better.

The_Jazz · 01-03-2007, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

Although I am decidedly opposed to the death penalty, largely due to a tainted judicial system, I will shed not one tear for poor Sadaam.

I will say that I believe his trial was nothing more than a sham, and that he was a "dead man" from the moment he was drug from his spider hole. The whole thing was just a huge joke.

So why should we be at all surprised to discover that his "execution" more closely resembled a public lynching than a state sponsored execution? Even if Sadaam didn't deserve anything more dignified than what he got...the rest of the world did. That was just pathetic.

Well said.

I like the new avatar, btw.

mixedmedia · 01-03-2007, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Sage

Eye witnesses, probable cause, evidence take your pick.

I still stand behind the adopt-a-terrorist movement. People who think we treat war prisoners badly or are terribly unjust should adopt one. Show them the proper way to live. Assuming they dont kill their adoptive families. If they do we should turn our other cheek though. They didnt know any better.

Maybe an idea more plausible than your adopt-a-terrorist movement is for those who whole heartedly support the death penalty to simply stop whining about how many of their precious tax pennies are going to practice it in a way befitting of the United States of America.

I'll stand behind that idea.

Sorry to take the thread so far off track. I'm aware. I stop.

Willravel · 01-03-2007, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cadre

The death penalty serves a distinct purpose and it is not to torture the victim.

Have you ever been electrocuted? Or have you ever suffocated by poison gas? Have you ever been hung? I'd call each of those torture, and there are humaine ways to end people's lives. Is the purpous torture? The answer of that lies in this simple fact: there are no steps taken to ensure that the condemned will feel tremendous pain and suffering immediatally before death.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cadre

The purpose of the death penalty is that it gets people who will not ever be a functioning part of society of the street permanently. Think of psychopathic murders here. The death penalty removes these people from society because there is no other viable way to do so. Locking someone up for the rest of their life is not cheap by any means. Think about it, all of the people in jails are being supported by the government. The death penalty serves as a cost effective, efficient way to deal with those that can never be part of society.

There are rarely trained psychologists on the juries that sentence people to death. Without very specific and intense training, how can one really know beyond a shadow of a doubt that someone cannot be reintegrated after years of therepy? Your answer to that would probably be dollars and cents, which I find facinating. Yes, it is cheap to kill people. It's also cheaper to simply drop biological weapons on the Middle East and then take their oil free of charge, so why don't we do that? Simple: morality. It's immoral to kill, espically in a system that is imperfect. Would you want to live in a country that has executed innocent people? Are you really able to excuse that with a simple, "mistakes are made, so be it" type of statement?

Yes, saving money is important...but not at the cost of justice and what we know is right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cadre

At least, this is how it is intended. Is it 100% fool proof? No, nothing truly is.

And there we have it; the "life isn't fair" excuse. That's the same excuse used all around the world to excuse injustice. Like, cadre, is as fair as we make it. If we choose to do everything we can to make life fair, then we can succede. If we simply roll over and accept that life isn't fair, then life won't be fair.

debaser · 01-03-2007, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mixedmedia

Well, if you had any talent for detecting the not-so-subtle you'd see that no one here is "complaining about the death of Saddam Hussein."

If you had your eyes open you'd realize they were. English as a second language perhaps?

Ch'i · 01-03-2007, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by debaser

If you had your eyes open you'd realize they were. English as a second language perhaps?

What's wrong with a complaint? I'd prefer a debate as opposed to staying silent for the sake of silence.

Eye witnesses, probable cause, evidence take your pick.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Sage

I still stand behind the adopt-a-terrorist movement. People who think we treat war prisoners badly or are terribly unjust should adopt one. Show them the proper way to live. Assuming they dont kill their adoptive families. If they do we should turn our other cheek though. They didnt know any better.

If we don't kill a "terrorist" we must bring one into our homes? I think you skipped a few steps.

debaser · 01-03-2007, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

It's hardly our only complaint. The root of the complaint is in the failed war in Iraq, and I'd say that's a valid complaint considering that it's causing the deaths of tens to hundreds of thousands of people, including military forces from our home countries, and is bankrupting the US government and is creating global instability. It's kinda a big deal.

You will hear no argument from me that the Iraq war was ill concieved and terribly executed, but if anything good has come from it, it is the death of Saddam. At this point you have to take what you can get from that cluster-fuck.

People responsible for crimes such as his should not have any comforts, including the drawing of breath.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ch'i

What's wrong with a complaint? I'd prefer a debate as opposed to staying silent for the sake of silence.

I'm not advocating silence, just pointing out misplaced sympathy.

mixedmedia · 01-03-2007, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by debaser

If you had your eyes open you'd realize they were. English as a second language perhaps?

I haven't seen anyone here complaining or lamenting the death of Saddam Hussein. What I see are more complex arguments about the war and about the death penalty as spurred by the execution of Saddam Hussein. Capice?

Ch'i · 01-03-2007, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by debaser

I'm not advocating silence, just pointing out misplaced sympathy

We aren't sympathizing, just pointing out the uselessness of the situation.

Bill O'Rights · 01-03-2007, 01:46 PM

A. Let's raise the civility level here.

B. The thread, as I recall was about the execution of one man...Sadaam Husein. Therefore, let's keep the posts relevent to this one single instance. Should Sadaam have been executed? Should he have hung, or was that to good for him? Maybe you feel that he didn't have it coming. Discuss that. How is this going to impact Iraq, the Iraqi government, the Iraqi people? Will the violence escalate or decrease?

Let's save the death penalty rhetoric for another thread. I seem to recall a few of them. Or start a new one...it's probably been awhile.

Ch'i · 01-03-2007, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Should Sadaam have been executed? Should he have hung, or was that to good for him? Maybe you feel that he didn't have it coming. Discuss that. How is this going to impact Iraq, the Iraqi government, the Iraqi people? Will the violence escalate or decrease?

Saddam should not have been executed, but forced to help build a hospital or something of the like. He deserved to be brough to justice, but hanging, or any death penalty for that matter, is an act of vengeance, not justice. I doubt this will do anything to decrease the level of violence in the ME if not help intensify it.

roachboy · 01-03-2007, 01:59 PM

the only possible good to have been accomplished through the execution would have been to establish some degree of legitimacy for the rickety american proxy pseudo-government that is presently in power.

that the trial was a debacle and the american proxy-pseudo-government made truly grotesque theater out of the execution accomplishes precisely the opposite of that possible good.

they fucked it up so completely that even the bush people find it necessary to distance themselves from the execution...look at the statements from the white house this afternoon: "um..we would have done it differently..."
EVEN THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION, those virtuosii in the denial of reality, are distancing themselves from it.

the death of saddam hussein was a foregone conclusion: any question of justice being served by it was ruled out from the beginning. it was going to be theater no matter what: and within that there is good theater and bad theater.
and this was very very bad theater.

like bor said above, the americans should not have bothered with the show trial.
that too was very very bad theater.
the americans should not have administered that trial. it was not in their interest to administer the trial. there is no good logic behind it: except that the americans could kill hussein and an international body would not and the americans could imagine that the war itself was not so illegitimate that a trial growing out of it could not go forward without putting the war itself on trial: and international body would probably not have done that.

another way: in any other legal scenario, any one with any legitimacy to it,
regardless of WHAT saddam hussein did while in power, the actions that resulted in his being brought to trial in the first place were so problematic that he probably would have been acquitted.

so for the americans, all other options were foreclosed. and with that out of the window went any possible advantage to putting him on trial at all. and since everone knows, everyone knew at the time that his death was a foregone conclusion, the americans probably should have simply "found him dead."--it would have been better for them, in theatrical terms. but no. like everything else about this ridiculous farce of a war, the american administration thought it through half way, and then, having thought it out half way, they proceeded to fuck up. it woud be amazing were it not by now so routine.

of course, we all simply accept it.
and meanwhile, of course, thousands of people continue to die.

nothing good came of this at all.
nothing.
personally, i think such bizarre exultation as has happened in this thread is rooted in denial. you cant look at the unbelievable fiasco that this war has become, you cant process it, so you focus on the tiny bits and break out the champagne. and why not? it's certainly easier than thinking about what's going on, and who doesnt sometimes like having a glass or 7 of a fine beverage?
but you're better off watching cartoons.
because, in a kind of foul way, you already are.

The_Jazz · 01-03-2007, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

Should he have hung, or was that to good for him?

Me trying to impose my own views and thoughts on the Iraqis, who are (in theory at least) a sovereign people, seems pointless. It's their country, and they can run it as they see fit.

However, the "too good for him" comment is too good for me to pass up. I think that they should have taken a lesson from the 16th Century Russians. After Ivan IV's (AKA The Terrible) son Feodor died, there was no heir and a gigantic power vacuum. After a few years of squalor, a man appeared out of the Polish frontier claiming to be Ivan's dead son, Dmitri (who officially died at his own hand when he had an epileptic fit while playing with a knife and slit his own throat). In actuality, the guy was most likely a defrocked priest from Poland and looked nothing like Dmitri.

With the backing of the Poles, Dmitri ascended the throne and married the daughter of the Patriarch of Kiev (I think). After about a year, the Russians grew tired of being ruled by the Poles and the nobility revolted, killing Dmitri in pretty dramatic swordfight in the Kremin.

Here's my favorite story in all of Russian history - they took his body and had it drawn and quartered (tied his limbs to 4 separate horses and ran them off in different directions). They took those pieces and burned them in a fire. Then they loaded the ashes in a cannon and shot them off towards Poland. There's debatable historical evidence that it actually happened this way, but it's such a great story that I kind of hope that it did.

Unless the Iraqis cremate Saddam and fire him off toward Tikrit or wherever, this is just another hanging.

Hopefully that story will make you smile at least a little and bring a little of the civility BOR is talking about back to this thread. Until then, I'm staying away.

dlish · 01-03-2007, 02:47 PM

whatever happened in 16th century russia does not legitimise nor have anything to do with saddams execution.

i have just seen the video, and as much as i despised saddam, i think that the whole thing was mishandled and i felt a sense of injustice.

i can speak arabic, so i understood what was said on the video. some of you may have seen a translation of the video, but if you are not an arab or muslim, the context of what was said cant be understood. regardless of whether you think he should have been hanged, taking a life deserves respect. gloating and gleefully partaking in exchanges while he is on the gallows is a shameful act.

the fact that the iraqi givernment let him be lynched...yes lynched by a mob of shiite militia men does no favours for the puppet iraqi government nor for the occupiers of iraq.

Its now quite clear that the iraqi government is riddled with moqtada's men, and that at the drop of a hat moqtadas men will turn on the puppet government and put a shiite militiaman in power after ousting whatever puppet leader the US puts in next.

cadre · 01-03-2007, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

There are rarely trained psychologists on the juries that sentence people to death. Without very specific and intense training, how can one really know beyond a shadow of a doubt that someone cannot be reintegrated after years of therepy? Your answer to that would probably be dollars and cents, which I find facinating. Yes, it is cheap to kill people. It's also cheaper to simply drop biological weapons on the Middle East and then take their oil free of charge, so why don't we do that? Simple: morality. It's immoral to kill, espically in a system that is imperfect. Would you want to live in a country that has executed innocent people? Are you really able to excuse that with a simple, "mistakes are made, so be it" type of statement?

Morals are all relative, you believe that it is wrong to kill people like this but my morals are not the same. Maybe this is because I was raised without a religion but I would like to think not. Thus I don't believe that you can use morals as an arguement here, seeing as everyone's are different. It seems to me that years of research has said that psychopaths and sociopaths can rarely be "cured" but I understand that the research into this is growing and maybe it will change. Maybe the rules should be tightened on who can be sentanced to death and who cannot, I'm not against that. I'm not against changing the methods either because some of them are not as humane as others (by the way, I've been electrocuted many times in my life, doesn't really scare me anymore but I haven't gotten hurt by it either). Also, I don't think morality is what is keeping us from bombing the Middle East to take all their oil anyways, I'd say that is more political than anything else.

I haven't done any research on this in more than four years so if the money thing is wrong then I'm sorry but I find that kind of hard to believe.

As far as the method, doesn't electrocution just stop the heart? I believe it's usually one charge and not something that builds up so technically the person should not even feel it. Hanging is the same, there is rarely physical pain because it simply breaks the neck. Gassing I don't know about. Then there's lethal injection which is actually a series of injections, first killing the nervous system, stopping the breathing and then stopping the heart (don't quote me, this may be wrong). I don't think this would cause any pain do you?

debaser · 01-03-2007, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlishsguy

whatever happened in 16th century russia does not legitimise nor have anything to do with saddams execution.

i have just seen the video, and as much as i despised saddam, i think that the whole thing was mishandled and i felt a sense of injustice.

i can speak arabic, so i understood what was said on the video. some of you may have seen a translation of the video, but if you are not an arab or muslim, the context of what was said cant be understood. regardless of whether you think he should have been hanged, taking a life deserves respect. gloating and gleefully partaking in exchanges while he is on the gallows is a shameful act.

the fact that the iraqi givernment let him be lynched...yes lynched by a mob of shiite militia men does no favours for the puppet iraqi government nor for the occupiers of iraq.

Its now quite clear that the iraqi government is riddled with moqtada's men, and that at the drop of a hat moqtadas men will turn on the puppet government and put a shiite militiaman in power after ousting whatever puppet leader the US puts in next.

I agree with this. The circumstances of his execution were reprehensible. But what did we really expect from the Iraqis? They have made a habit of fucking up far simpler tasks than a mere hanging.

I found it telling that as a Baathist, his last comment was "this is the bravery of arab men?" (emphasis supplied by moi)

A mea culpa perhaps?

Ch'i · 01-03-2007, 03:48 PM

Quote:

As far as the method, doesn't electrocution just stop the heart? I believe it's usually one charge and not something that builds up so technically the person should not even feel it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

The head and legs of the condemned person are shaved and the prisoner is strapped into the chair. A moist sponge is placed on the head to aid conductivity. One electrode is attached to the head and a second attached to the leg to provide a closed circuit. At least two jolts of an electrical current are applied with the time and current depending on the physical state of the condemed person. Typically an initial voltage of around 2,000 volts is applied for up to 15 seconds to stop the heart and induce unconsciousness. The voltage is then lowered to reduce current flow to approximately 8 amps. The body of the person may heat up to approximately 210°F (100°C), and the electric current will generally cause severe damage to internal organs.
In theory, unconsciousness occurs in a fraction of a second. However, there are many reports of things going wrong. There have been reports of a person's head on fire; of burning transformers, and of a chair breaking down after the initial jolt and letting the condemned wait in pain on the floor of the execution room while the chair was fixed.

For .1-15 seconds they feel every muscle in their body tense to the point of breaking while feeling 2,000 volts melt them from the inside until they lose conscienceness or their heart stops, if nothing goes wrong.

Seriously though, this thread is about Saddam's hanging, not the death penalty. As BOR said, make a new thread.

roachboy · 01-03-2007, 04:17 PM

huh--i would have thought that the idea of kingship--that the person of the king WAS the unity of the people WAS the unity of the state, such as it was before (say, for simplicity's sake) the french revolution...and the notion of political legitimacy that operates now, in the context of the modern nation-state (procedural legitimacy)...would be understood as different, so that the nice story about dismemberment and cremation and a cannon shot toward poland would be a kind of non-sequitor.

but it is a cool story, and i am glad i know it now, and so i guess the question of relevance at one level (this thread, this or any conversation about the execution of saddam hussein no matter what you think of it) is supplanted by another notion of relevance (because it is not every day you get a cool story like that....)

but then, if you start thinking about it more, things begin to get creepy.
and then, a little later, they stop making sense.
so the_jazz: what are you actually saying with that post?

are you saying that the iraqi people in 2007 are like the heroic europeans of the 17th century, like there is a single Objective History, the furthest end of which is occupied by White People and relative to which everyone else can be understood---you simply ascribe to them one or another position along that objective History----as if all humanity simply repeats that one Objective History as they develop toward the Amazing 2007 occupied by those Terrifically Sophisticated White People?

or not?

i am confused.
please help.

Ourcrazymodern? · 01-03-2007, 04:41 PM

How this thread has grown! What myriad opinions and emotions; disagreement and outright spite. I think we might pause and ask ourselves if this guy ever was worth so much bother?

cadre · 01-03-2007, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ch'i

For .1-15 seconds they feel every muscle in their body tense to the point of breaking while feeling 2,000 volts melt them from the inside until they lose conscienceness or their heart stops, if nothing goes wrong.

Seriously though, this thread is about Saddam's hanging, not the death penalty. As BOR said, make a new thread.

Points taken, okay.

Lady Sage · 01-03-2007, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

A. Let's raise the civility level here.
B. The thread, as I recall was about the execution of one man...Sadaam Husein. Therefore, let's keep the posts relevent to this one single instance. Should Sadaam have been executed? Should he have hung, or was that to good for him? Maybe you feel that he didn't have it coming. Discuss that. How is this going to impact Iraq, the Iraqi government, the Iraqi people? Will the violence escalate or decrease?
Let's save the death penalty rhetoric for another thread. I seem to recall a few of them. Or start a new one...it's probably been awhile.

My dear good sirs and madams, it is in my humble opinion that Saddam should have been executed. Hanging was entirely too good for the chap. Instead I believe he and Bush should have been locked in a room together to knock each other off with their bare hands. That having been done, displaying both of their heads on pikes would have made me feel sufficiently safe. Anything less would be.... uncivilized. Have it coming? All that and more I assure you he should have received in my mind. As for the impact on Iraq? As far as I am concerned it can become a glass parking lot. Our noses are far too distended into other countries.

dlish · 01-03-2007, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by debaser

I found it telling that as a Baathist, his last comment was "this is the bravery of arab men?" (emphasis supplied by moi)

A mea culpa perhaps?

debaser, his last comment wasnt 'this is the bravery of arab men'?

ive found this website with the translation and text of what was said on the video..its pretty accurate from what ive seen of the tape.. his last words are quite clear and were actually the recital of the 'proclamation of faith' also known as the 'shahada' bearing witness in the Oneness of God, before the trap door was flung open.

heres the link
http://www.rightsided.org/index.php/...-and-analysis/

debaser · 01-03-2007, 06:56 PM

I stand corrected.

His last words were "I bear witness ..." then he was dropped.

Just prior to that though, in response to the heckeling, he made the comment I alluded to above.

I read the translation you linked to, but I disagree with it somewhat. Granted my Arabic is pretty tawdry, but the reference was not to their manhood. I'll try to find a transcript and look it over, but from listening to it that is what I got...

EDIT: I found a subtitled video from CNN:

Hanging video with CNN subtitles

Willy · 01-03-2007, 07:10 PM

I think Hussein being hanged in his own execution chamber is a reasonable facsimile of justice. It was better than a lot of his victims got, but it's close enough. The trial and to a lesser extent the execution were not exactly exemplary but considering where it's taking place, it was as good as can be expected IMO, and it's not like the outcome was ever in doubt.

The_Jazz · 01-03-2007, 07:25 PM

Roach,

My point is that we're really all far too close to the event to make any actual sense of it. If the Iraqis had fired Saddam off toward Tikrit (or wherever), the international hullaballoo would be deafening. We'd be talking about desecration of the dead and lots of other nasty things that none of us want to really think that humans are capable of.

If the Legend of the False Dmitri is true, it's a horrific scene full of death, dismemberment and utter warfare. It's a charming anecdote at parties these days, but the real thing would be something that no one here, pro- or anti- death penalty alike, would ever want to have to watch.

In 400 years, the death of Saddam may be the same. Regardless of whether or not anyone here thinks my little distraction from the vitriol being hurled around is relavent, history will be the ultimate judge. We're all simply witnesses and impotent ones at that.

Ourcrazymodern? · 01-03-2007, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Sage

My dear good sirs and madams, it is in my humble opinion that Saddam should have been executed. Hanging was entirely too good for the chap. Instead I believe he and Bush should have been locked in a room together to knock each other off with their bare hands. That having been done, displaying both of their heads on pikes would have made me feel sufficiently safe. Anything less would be.... uncivilized. Have it coming? All that and more I assure you he should have received in my mind. As for the impact on Iraq? As far as I am concerned it can become a glass parking lot. Our noses are far too distended into other countries.

Our noses have become too large. Bush would've lost even if it was a very large room and he could have run away as much as he liked.I feel, Feel, FEEL for Iraq and for the stupid mess we have caused.
Please let's not make glass parking lots anywhere.
Now, glass housing structures in the desert! THAT MIGHT WORK! Housing in the desert that kept in the humidity and there are the "ugly bags of mostly-water" staying warm yet comfortable all the time.
Can we save the soldiers?

host · 01-03-2007, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlishsguy

debaser, his last comment wasnt 'this is the bravery of arab men'?

ive found this website with the translation and text of what was said on the video..its pretty accurate from what ive seen of the tape.. his last words are quite clear and were actually the recital of the 'proclamation of faith' also known as the 'shahada' bearing witness in the Oneness of God, before the trap door was flung open.

heres the link
http://www.rightsided.org/index.php/...-and-analysis/

Here is more detailed and elaborate background. IMO, no good will come of this for the US, Iraq, or the region. Saddam appears to have died as he lived....and the answer to the question, "was Iraq the way Iraq was, because Saddam was the way Saddam was....or..." is answered. Gertrude Bell answered that question back in 1920:

Quote:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...401355_pf.html

......Bell, a singular, gentle-born woman who had already established a name through Arab travels and scholarly writings rivaling those of any man of her time, arrived soon after. She stayed on for the rest of her life, as Oriental secretary to British governments, carving out and creating modern-day Iraq as much as any single person.

Bell sketched the boundaries of Iraq on tracing paper after careful consultation with Iraqi tribes, consideration of Britain's need for oil and her own idiosyncratic geopolitical beliefs.

"The truth is I'm becoming a Sunni myself; you know where you are with them, they are staunch and they are guided, according to their lights, by reason; whereas with the Shi'ahs, however well intentioned they may be, at any moment some ignorant fanatic of an alim may tell them that by the order of God and himself they are to think differently," she wrote home.

She and her allies gave the monarchy to the minority Sunnis, denied independence to the Kurds in order to keep northern oil fields for Britain and withheld from the Shiite majority the democracy of which she thought them incapable.

"The object of every government here has always been to keep the Shi'ah divines from taking charge of public affairs," Bell wrote.......

Quote:

http://www.juancole.com/2007/01/apoc...ills-6-at.html
Tuesday, January 02, 2007

Apocalypse II in Samarra
US Kills 6 at National Dialogue Front Office

<a href="http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/01/01/iraq/main2319799.shtml">CBS/AP report that an angry crowd of Sunni Arab demonstrators in the northern city of Samarra</a>, protesting Saddam's execution, broke "broke the locks off the badly damaged Shiite Golden Dome mosque and marched through carrying a mock coffin and photo of the executed former leader."

Folks, this is very bad news. The Askariyah Shrine (it isn't just a mosque) is associated with the <a href="http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/SHIA/HIDDEN.HTM">Hidden Twelfth Imam</a>, who is expected by Shiites to appear at the end of time to restore the world to justice. (For them, the Imam Mahdi is sort of like the second coming of Christ for Christians). The Muqtada al-Sadr movement is millenarian and believes he will reveal himself at any moment.

The centrality of the cult of the Twelfth Imam, a direct descendant of the Prophet Muhammad who is said to have vanished in 873 AD, helps explain why the bombing of the Golden Dome on February 21 of 2006 set off a frenzy of Shiite, Sadrist attacks on Sunni Arabs. Last February, stuck in a Phoenix hotel because of a missed flight and without an internet connection for my laptop, I blogged from my Treo that it was <a href="http://www.juancole.com/2006/02/shiite-protests-roil-iraq-tuesday-was.html">an apocalyptic day</a>. Sadly, it was, kicking off a frenzy of sectarian violence that has grown each subsequent month.

For Sunni Arabs to parade a symbolic coffin of Saddam through the ruins of the Askariya shrine won't be exactly good for social peace in Iraq. Can't that site be properly guarded or something?

<a href="http://www.daralhayat.com/arab_news/levant_news/01-2007/Item-20070101-df13d154-c0a8-10ed-0095-49af9ecb2038/story.html">Al-Hayat reports in Arabic</a> that hundreds of demonstrators marched in Dur, near Tikrit on Monday, protesting the execution of Saddam Hussein. Young men carried machine guns and fired them in the air, chanting "Muqtada, you coward," and "Hakim! Yellow-belly! Agent of the Americans!" They unveiled an enormous mosaic of Saddam Hussein inscribed, "The Martry-Hero."

There was also a demonstration in the northern Baghdad district of Adhamiya, <a href="http://www.azzaman.com/index.asp?fname=2007\01\01-01\995.htm&storytitle=">at which protesters shouted condemnations</a> of Muqtada al-Sadr, according to al-Zaman. Some of those present at Saddam's execution shouted "Muqtada, Muqtada, Muqtada!" <h3>Saddam mocked them, asking if this was their sign of manliness. (Personally, I believe this is Saddam's reference to rumors in Iraq that Muqtada's wife left him, saying that he is actually gay.</h3> He is saying that chanting Muqtada's name is a sign that they are also not real men.).....

Quote:

http://www.iraqslogger.com/index.php...Hanging_Saddam
Timing and Hostile Repartee Creates Further Division
By NIR ROSEN 12/31/2006 2:17 PM ET

Saddam Hussein became the first modern Arab dictator to die violently since Egypt's Anwar Sadat in 1981. Saddam's hanging at the hands of chubby Iraqi men wearing ski masks is likely to be perceived by many as an American execution and as part of a trend of American missteps contributing to sectarian tensions in Iraq and the region. The trial of Saddam was viewed by detractors as an event stage-managed by the Americans. According to Human Rights Watch, the Iraqi judges and lawyers involved in prosecuting Saddam were ill prepared and relied on their American advisers. American minders shut off the microphones and ordered the translators to halt whenever they disapproved of what was being said by the defendants.

The important Muslim holiday of Eid al Adha was due to begin over the weekend. For Sunnis it began on Saturday the 30th of December. For Shias it begins on Sunday the 31st. According to tradition in Mecca, battles are suspended during the Hajj period so that pilgrims can safely march to Mecca. This practice even predated Islam and Muslims preserved this tradition, calling this period 'Al Ashur al Hurm,' or the months of truce. By hanging Saddam on the Sunni Eid the Americans and the Iraqi government were in effect saying that only the Shia Eid had legitimacy. Sunnis were irate that Shia traditions were given primacy (as they are more and more in Iraq these days) and that Shias disrespected the tradition and killed Saddam on this day. Because the Iraqi constitution itself prohibits executions from being carried out on Eid, the Iraqi government had to officially declare that Eid did not begin until Sunday the 31st. It was a striking decision, virtually declaring that Iraq is now a Shia state. Eid al Adha is the festival of the sacrifice of the sheep. Some may perceive it as the day Saddam was sacrificed.

Saddam had been in American custody and was handed over to Iraqis just before his execution. It is therefore hard to dismiss the perception that the Americans could have waited, because in the end it is they who have the final say over such events in Iraq. Iraqi officials have consistently publicly complained that they have no authority and the Americans control the Iraqi police and the Army. It is therefore unusual that Iraqis would suddenly regain sovereignty for this important event. For many Sunnis and Arabs in the region, this appears to be one president ordering the death of another president. It was possibly a message to Sunnis, a warning. The Americans often equated Saddam with the Sunni resistance to the occupation. By killing Saddam they were killing what they believed was the symbol of the Sunni resistance, expecting them to realize their cause was hopeless. Sunnis could perceive the execution, and its timing, as a message to them: "We are killing you." But Saddam's death might now liberate the Sunni resistance from association with Saddam and the Baathists. They can now more plausibly claim that they are fighting for national liberation and not out of support for the former regime as their American and Iraqi government opponents have so often claimed. A lack of a hood (victims normally do not have a choice to wear a hood) a scarf to prevent rope burn for the soon to be distributed photo, a hallmark of US "We Got Him" psyops tactics. Even the US plane that flew him to his final resting spot seems to indicate US management.

The unofficial video of the execution, filmed on the mobile cell phone of one of the officials present is sure to further inflame sectarianism, because it is clearly a Shia execution. Men are heard talking, one of them is called Ali. As the executioners argue over how to best position the rope on his neck Saddam calls out to god, saying, "ya Allah." Referring to Shias, one official says "those who pray for Muhamad and the family of Muhamad have won!" Others triumphantly respond in the Shia chant: "Our God prays for Muhamad and the family of Muhamad." Others then add the part chanted by supporters of Muqtada al Sadr: "And speed his (the Mahdi's) return! And damn his enemies! And make his son victorious! Muqtada! Muqtada! Muqtada!"

Saddam then smiles and says something mocking about Muqtada. "Muqtada! It is this..." but the rest is blocked by the voices of officials saying "ila jahanam," or "go to Hell." Saddam looks down and says "Is this your manhood...?" As the rope is put around Saddam's neck somebody shouts "long live Muhamad Baqir al Sadr!" referring to an important Shia cleric who founded the Dawa Party and was also Muqtada's relative. Baqir al Sadr was executed by Saddam in 1980. He is venerated by all three major Shia movements in Iraq, the Dawa, the Sadrists and the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq. Others insult Saddam. One man asks them to stop: "I beg you, I beg you, the man is being executed!" Saddam then says the Shahada, or testimony, that there is no god but Allah and Muhamad is his prophet. When he tries to say it again the trap door opens and he falls through to be hung. One man then shouts that "the tyranny has ended!" and others call out triumphal Shia chants. Somebody wants to remove the rope from his neck but is told to wait eight minutes.

The Sunni Islamo-nationalist website Islam Memo claimed that the Safavids (Persians, meaning Shias) burned Saddam's Quran after they killed him. They also said that Saddam exchanged insults with the witnesses to his execution and cursed one of them, saying "God damn you, Persian midget." The same website also claimed that Ayatolla Ali Sistani blessed Saddam's execution and that the Iraqi government refused to provide Saddam with a Sunni cleric to pray for him before the execution. Finally, they asserted that Saddam said "Palestine is Arab" and then recited the Muslim Shahada, testifying that there is no god but Allah and Muhamad is his prophet, and then he was executed. The website claimed that following his death Saddam's body was abused.

Although the Shia dominated Iraqi media claimed Saddam was terrified prior to his execution and fought with his hangmen, Saddam's on screen visage was one of aplomb, for he was conscious of the image he was displaying and wanted to go down as the grand historic leader he believed himself to be......

So.....let's compare where the reagion was on Sept. 12, 2001. The U.S. was pursuing one man, in Afghanistan....and sicx months before, the Taleban were given $70 million from the U.S., according to Colin Poweel, to compensate Afghani opium farmers after the Taleban eliminated the opium crop. The women wore burkhas, and Afghanistan was subject to sharia law.

Iran was hemmed in by it's Taleban enemy in Afghanistan, and by the weakened Saddam....still perceived by Iran, and the world as an enemy that contained his neighbors' (Iran) ambition and aggression.

The Kurds, independent under the protection of the 10 years old, "no fly zone", enjoyed autonomy, and were an irritant to Turkey, but no more so than when Saddam controlled the region. Turkey could still consider the Kurdish province to be part of Iraq, and there was no need to pre-empt Kurdish ambitions for independence. The 1920 status quo in the region....the checks and balances of Sunni rule in Iraq, via Saddam, were just as Winston Churchill and Gertrude Bell had planned, 81 years before.....

The US treasury debt was $5.7 trillion, and US military and intelligence annual spending was under $350 billion, and the federal budget was balanced.

All of the above has been upset, the Afghan opium crop is huge, US debt and spending is out of control, the US "on the ground" military is overextended on two fronts, undermanned and wearing out it's equipment. The Taleban are restablishing their rule in Afghanistan, the women still wear burkhas, and the sharia is the law.

Iran is enjoying it's new dominance of the region, and the shi'a of Iraq are united with Iran. The Kurds are making the Turks nervous, and the Saudis warn that they will not tolerate the crushing of their Sunni brothers in Iraq.

Saddam's execution is just one more setback in a series of blunders and mistakes made by the US.....

....and here's the hope of US leadership of the future:

Quote:

http://thinkprogress.org/2007/01/03/...q-vanity-fair/

.......According to Vanity Fair, an audience member told McCain, “The war’s the big issue. Some kind of disengagement — it’s going to have to happen. It’s a big issue for you…in 24 months.” McCain responded:

“I do believe this issue isn’t going to be around in 2008. I think it’s going to either tip into civil war … ” He breaks off, as if not wanting to rehearse the handful of other unattractive possibilities. “Listen,” he says, “I believe in prayer. I pray every night.” And that’s where he leaves his discussion of the war this morning: at the kneeling rail.

Later, McCain told Vanity Fair editor Todd Purdum, “It’s just so hard for me to contemplate failure that I can’t make the next step.”

Quotes attributed to anonymous McCain advisers also suggest that the Arizona senator — who passionately supported the initial Iraq invasion and is leading the charge for escalation — now sees his initial support as a liability:

Asked whether, knowing all that is known now (no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, no effective Iraqi army), McCain would have still supported the invasion, his aides say he doesn’t view the question in such simple terms. …

“He stands by his support for doing something,” one aide said. …

“If you knew we were going to lose, would you still be for it?” the aide asked. “That’s a different hypothetical question, that he doesn’t have to answer yet.”

Shauk · 01-03-2007, 09:00 PM

man, I want off this planet before you weird human people get me killed.

I don't care where you're from or your nationality, I just look at all this ritual with disgust. develop values and morals and then use them as an excuse for violence, whats the point?

This execution solved nothing except to appeal to the team complex of competitiveness that americans seem to have "we're number 1!" so they can thump themselves on the chest and revel in thier entitlement of being happy about something, even at the expense of another. Saddam wasn't right, but then again, who is?

Ourcrazymodern? · 01-03-2007, 10:01 PM

Dlishs!

Shauk, how're you posting here if you're not human?

#1 has been ?able since computers came around.

I've been begging you to forget about this as a thing: As a thing it just happened and didn't mean that much. Remember he was in captivity long before he died...would we be talking about it so much if, say, he'd died with Ms. Braun in the bunker (or did he?).
Any "celebration" of the news paled beside this witness to the fact that people were actually willing to argue about it. OMG, lightly using the term.

The_Jazz · 01-04-2007, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlishsguy

whatever happened in 16th century russia does not legitimise nor have anything to do with saddams execution.

I was in no way trying to legitimize the execution. That's something that only the Iraqi's can do.

However, I think you're wrong that my anecdote has nothing to do with what we saw. It's the case of a foreign power of a different religious bent (Catholic vs. Orthodox) seizing control of a country coupled with an act of regicide by the "natives" (for lack of a better term). Make no mistake about it, any autocrat or dictator is a de facto king. The trappings may be different but the end result is the same.

Regardless, the historians are going to be the ultimate judge. Those that will come after us have the benefit of hindsight to determine whether or not our actions were just.

Lady Sage, I think that it's very interesting that you can suggest putting Saddam's head on a pike and killing every man, woman and child in Iraq in nuclear fire. I've probably misinterpreted something, so I'm a little confused on how you can reconcile your distaste for our hyper-aggresive (in my mind) foreign policy and the execution of a (former) world leader. The two issues seem inextricably tied together to me.

host, other than pointing out what a mess the US is in, I really don't get the point of your post.

aabbccbbaa2 · 01-04-2007, 11:02 AM

1 asshole less on the planet... but not a problem solved ...

host · 01-04-2007, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz

......host, other than pointing out what a mess the US is in, I really don't get the point of your post.

The point was that our leadership was stupid enough to destroy he power balance in Iran's locale. It was much more in the interests of the US to continue to prop Saddam up, than to invade, capture, and kill him. It's bankrupted us financially, strategically and morally. Saddam had it right, if he called his executioners "Persian midgets".....that is an accurate description of who the Iraqi Shi'a are, now.

Bush recently sent a US Navy armada into the Persian gulf, and he did not pull the trigger against Iran. The US has no strategy, and few allies. Since 9/11 , the US has been executing itself. So much influence and money squandered. The biggest loser on the gallows the other day in Iraq, was not Saddam. He went out wiht his head held high. He's gone, and so is our future as a leader among nations. and as an unrivaled financial and military power. Bush inserted the US into an 1100 year old stalemate of muslims fighting among themselves...the description I posted help illustrate what a horror show already existed between different Arab and Persian muslim sects. They neutralized each other, and now our leadership inserted us into the "fray". Pathetic and tragic.

Infinite_Loser · 01-05-2007, 08:40 PM

When is the death of another human being ever a good thing?

opus123 · 01-05-2007, 08:56 PM

I think this hanging will increase attacks on Americans by Iraqis.

Jonathan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Intense1

I mean, he killed how many Kurds by gassing them, and the Shiites by dessimating their villages?

Too bad the Bush Family has killed more Iraqis than Hussein ever did.
But don't let the numbers bother your conscience any. Two wrongs make a Christian Right.

Jonathan

Quote:

Originally Posted by DEI37

If you kill somebody, you should get killed back by the law agencies. NO exceptions.

So are you saying that Bush should be killed if he signed an execution order and then later the person's DNA proved they did not do it ?

Jonathan

surferlove007 · 01-06-2007, 05:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

Yes, Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11. Ossama is still ... somewhere. The towers aren't even being rebuilt yet over 5 years later. I'd not call you strange for recognizing that our wound is still open and those that truely inflicted it are still free as birds.

The towers were actually originally designed to withstand an airplane crash to the size of a metroliner however to save cost the architect, Yamasaki were forced to re-direct the attention and money focus to other areas of construction in the building. Had it not been for his design, the buildings would of likely toppled over causing more death and destruction. Damn Americans always trying to save money and cut quality...
The towers will not ever be rebuilt...Instead I believe four or five shorter differently shaped towers will be erected on the sites to comemorate the event. They will be placed surrounded by a park or grassy area from what we were shown in the plans.
The architect chosen for this task was Daniel liberskind (this is from what I remember from class, pretty sure it was him though. . (Someone paid attention in class! Hooray Architecture!)
Just some info...the wound will be reclosed supposedly by 2010 at the latest.
The new plans take alot of time...
If anyone was interested.
I think Sadam being hanged is good. It won't heal alot fo things...but its a damn good start in my book. Atleast he won't be able to be used as a figurehead anymore...
I hope we prevail in the war.

01-03-2007, 11:30 AM	#121 (permalink)
Lady Sage Mistress of Mayhem Location: Canton, Ohio	It costs so much more because we have that whole hurry up and appeal bull crap. __________________ If only closed minds came with closed mouths. Minds are like parachutes, they function best when open. It`s Easier to Change a Condom Than a Diaper Yes, the rumors are true... I actually AM a Witch.

01-03-2007, 11:39 AM	#122 (permalink)
mixedmedia has all her shots. Location: Florida	Oh, I see. So the solution is only to kill them faster? Leaving the system open to even more incompetence and injustice than it has exhibited before? Making the system even more obviously slanted in favor of those who can afford to provide themselves with a superior defense in court? __________________ Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

01-03-2007, 11:52 AM	#123 (permalink)
Lady Sage Mistress of Mayhem Location: Canton, Ohio	With as incriminating as DNA evidence is these days I hardly find that the case. Then again, OJ got off. Maybe Saddam was innocent. __________________ If only closed minds came with closed mouths. Minds are like parachutes, they function best when open. It`s Easier to Change a Condom Than a Diaper Yes, the rumors are true... I actually AM a Witch.

01-03-2007, 12:01 PM	#125 (permalink)
mixedmedia has all her shots. Location: Florida	There is not always DNA evidence. What then? __________________ Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

01-03-2007, 12:11 PM	#126 (permalink)
Lady Sage Mistress of Mayhem Location: Canton, Ohio	Eye witnesses, probable cause, evidence take your pick. I still stand behind the adopt-a-terrorist movement. People who think we treat war prisoners badly or are terribly unjust should adopt one. Show them the proper way to live. Assuming they dont kill their adoptive families. If they do we should turn our other cheek though. They didnt know any better. __________________ If only closed minds came with closed mouths. Minds are like parachutes, they function best when open. It`s Easier to Change a Condom Than a Diaper Yes, the rumors are true... I actually AM a Witch.

01-03-2007, 01:46 PM	#135 (permalink)
Bill O'Rights will always be an Alyson Hanniganite Location: In the dust of the archives	A. Let's raise the civility level here. B. The thread, as I recall was about the execution of one man...Sadaam Husein. Therefore, let's keep the posts relevent to this one single instance. Should Sadaam have been executed? Should he have hung, or was that to good for him? Maybe you feel that he didn't have it coming. Discuss that. How is this going to impact Iraq, the Iraqi government, the Iraqi people? Will the violence escalate or decrease? Let's save the death penalty rhetoric for another thread. I seem to recall a few of them. Or start a new one...it's probably been awhile. __________________ "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony "Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

01-03-2007, 01:59 PM	#137 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	the only possible good to have been accomplished through the execution would have been to establish some degree of legitimacy for the rickety american proxy pseudo-government that is presently in power. that the trial was a debacle and the american proxy-pseudo-government made truly grotesque theater out of the execution accomplishes precisely the opposite of that possible good. they fucked it up so completely that even the bush people find it necessary to distance themselves from the execution...look at the statements from the white house this afternoon: "um..we would have done it differently..." EVEN THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION, those virtuosii in the denial of reality, are distancing themselves from it. the death of saddam hussein was a foregone conclusion: any question of justice being served by it was ruled out from the beginning. it was going to be theater no matter what: and within that there is good theater and bad theater. and this was very very bad theater. like bor said above, the americans should not have bothered with the show trial. that too was very very bad theater. the americans should not have administered that trial. it was not in their interest to administer the trial. there is no good logic behind it: except that the americans could kill hussein and an international body would not and the americans could imagine that the war itself was not so illegitimate that a trial growing out of it could not go forward without putting the war itself on trial: and international body would probably not have done that. another way: in any other legal scenario, any one with any legitimacy to it, regardless of WHAT saddam hussein did while in power, the actions that resulted in his being brought to trial in the first place were so problematic that he probably would have been acquitted. so for the americans, all other options were foreclosed. and with that out of the window went any possible advantage to putting him on trial at all. and since everone knows, everyone knew at the time that his death was a foregone conclusion, the americans probably should have simply "found him dead."--it would have been better for them, in theatrical terms. but no. like everything else about this ridiculous farce of a war, the american administration thought it through half way, and then, having thought it out half way, they proceeded to fuck up. it woud be amazing were it not by now so routine. of course, we all simply accept it. and meanwhile, of course, thousands of people continue to die. nothing good came of this at all. nothing. personally, i think such bizarre exultation as has happened in this thread is rooted in denial. you cant look at the unbelievable fiasco that this war has become, you cant process it, so you focus on the tiny bits and break out the champagne. and why not? it's certainly easier than thinking about what's going on, and who doesnt sometimes like having a glass or 7 of a fine beverage? but you're better off watching cartoons. because, in a kind of foul way, you already are. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite Last edited by roachboy; 01-03-2007 at 02:04 PM..

01-03-2007, 02:47 PM	#139 (permalink)
dlish Currently sour but formerly Dlishs Super Moderator Location: Australia/UAE	whatever happened in 16th century russia does not legitimise nor have anything to do with saddams execution. i have just seen the video, and as much as i despised saddam, i think that the whole thing was mishandled and i felt a sense of injustice. i can speak arabic, so i understood what was said on the video. some of you may have seen a translation of the video, but if you are not an arab or muslim, the context of what was said cant be understood. regardless of whether you think he should have been hanged, taking a life deserves respect. gloating and gleefully partaking in exchanges while he is on the gallows is a shameful act. the fact that the iraqi givernment let him be lynched...yes lynched by a mob of shiite militia men does no favours for the puppet iraqi government nor for the occupiers of iraq. Its now quite clear that the iraqi government is riddled with moqtada's men, and that at the drop of a hat moqtadas men will turn on the puppet government and put a shiite militiaman in power after ousting whatever puppet leader the US puts in next. __________________ An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay? - Filthy

01-03-2007, 04:17 PM	#143 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	huh--i would have thought that the idea of kingship--that the person of the king WAS the unity of the people WAS the unity of the state, such as it was before (say, for simplicity's sake) the french revolution...and the notion of political legitimacy that operates now, in the context of the modern nation-state (procedural legitimacy)...would be understood as different, so that the nice story about dismemberment and cremation and a cannon shot toward poland would be a kind of non-sequitor. but it is a cool story, and i am glad i know it now, and so i guess the question of relevance at one level (this thread, this or any conversation about the execution of saddam hussein no matter what you think of it) is supplanted by another notion of relevance (because it is not every day you get a cool story like that....) but then, if you start thinking about it more, things begin to get creepy. and then, a little later, they stop making sense. so the_jazz: what are you actually saying with that post? are you saying that the iraqi people in 2007 are like the heroic europeans of the 17th century, like there is a single Objective History, the furthest end of which is occupied by White People and relative to which everyone else can be understood---you simply ascribe to them one or another position along that objective History----as if all humanity simply repeats that one Objective History as they develop toward the Amazing 2007 occupied by those Terrifically Sophisticated White People? or not? i am confused. please help. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite Last edited by roachboy; 01-03-2007 at 04:24 PM..

01-03-2007, 04:41 PM	#144 (permalink)
Ourcrazymodern? still, wondering. Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge	How this thread has grown! What myriad opinions and emotions; disagreement and outright spite. I think we might pause and ask ourselves if this guy ever was worth so much bother? __________________ BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

01-03-2007, 06:56 PM	#148 (permalink)
debaser Sir, I have a plan... Location: 38S NC20943324	I stand corrected. His last words were "I bear witness ..." then he was dropped. Just prior to that though, in response to the heckeling, he made the comment I alluded to above. I read the translation you linked to, but I disagree with it somewhat. Granted my Arabic is pretty tawdry, but the reference was not to their manhood. I'll try to find a transcript and look it over, but from listening to it that is what I got... EDIT: I found a subtitled video from CNN: Hanging video with CNN subtitles __________________ Fortunato became immured to the sound of the trowel after a while. Last edited by debaser; 01-03-2007 at 07:04 PM..

01-03-2007, 07:10 PM	#149 (permalink)
Willy Insane	I think Hussein being hanged in his own execution chamber is a reasonable facsimile of justice. It was better than a lot of his victims got, but it's close enough. The trial and to a lesser extent the execution were not exactly exemplary but considering where it's taking place, it was as good as can be expected IMO, and it's not like the outcome was ever in doubt.

01-03-2007, 07:25 PM	#150 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	Roach, My point is that we're really all far too close to the event to make any actual sense of it. If the Iraqis had fired Saddam off toward Tikrit (or wherever), the international hullaballoo would be deafening. We'd be talking about desecration of the dead and lots of other nasty things that none of us want to really think that humans are capable of. If the Legend of the False Dmitri is true, it's a horrific scene full of death, dismemberment and utter warfare. It's a charming anecdote at parties these days, but the real thing would be something that no one here, pro- or anti- death penalty alike, would ever want to have to watch. In 400 years, the death of Saddam may be the same. Regardless of whether or not anyone here thinks my little distraction from the vitriol being hurled around is relavent, history will be the ultimate judge. We're all simply witnesses and impotent ones at that. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

01-03-2007, 09:00 PM	#153 (permalink)
Shauk Confused Adult Location: Spokane, WA	man, I want off this planet before you weird human people get me killed. I don't care where you're from or your nationality, I just look at all this ritual with disgust. develop values and morals and then use them as an excuse for violence, whats the point? This execution solved nothing except to appeal to the team complex of competitiveness that americans seem to have "we're number 1!" so they can thump themselves on the chest and revel in thier entitlement of being happy about something, even at the expense of another. Saddam wasn't right, but then again, who is?

01-03-2007, 10:01 PM	#154 (permalink)
Ourcrazymodern? still, wondering. Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge	Dlishs! Shauk, how're you posting here if you're not human? #1 has been ?able since computers came around. I've been begging you to forget about this as a thing: As a thing it just happened and didn't mean that much. Remember he was in captivity long before he died...would we be talking about it so much if, say, he'd died with Ms. Braun in the bunker (or did he?). Any "celebration" of the news paled beside this witness to the fact that people were actually willing to argue about it. OMG, lightly using the term. __________________ BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

01-04-2007, 11:02 AM	#156 (permalink)
aabbccbbaa2 Upright	1 asshole less on the planet... but not a problem solved ...

01-05-2007, 08:40 PM	#158 (permalink)
Infinite_Loser Junkie Location: Lake Mary, FL	When is the death of another human being ever a good thing? __________________ I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.