thingstodo

I have to admit I had an uncomfortable feeling when I read the article this mornig and saw the photo of him with the noose around his neck. And I've been a supporter of the death penalty.

I do think that, if we really did things right, we'd put those bastards on death row to work doing crap they hate for the people they wronged. Work to eat or dont' eat. Make enough working to cover your keep or you get tossed in a spot comensurate with your work. We'd have to get past the ACLU to make that happen and all the PC crap but it sure would be realistic.

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soccerchamp76

For anyone interested:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...34279766935521

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Chris Griffin: That would explain all the gravity.

host

I'm sorry xepherys, I can find no record of US military commanders in Iraq who back your opinion, indeed...there was no proven "foreign terrorists presence" in Iraq in areas that Saddam controlled in the months after 9/11, but there is a reliable record of reports of terrorists in camps in areas controlled by the Kurds and their American allies:

hiredgun

Whoa, that's the real deal. You might want to label it more clearly in case anyone is squeamish about seeing an execution video.

Frankly, that video doesn't do much to raise my hopes about the new government. They're hanging him in some random, small, dingy-looking building, his executioners just look like a random bunch of masked thugs, and there's no discipline in evidence in the entire scene; camera flashes keep going off, the men keep repeating religious chants, and at least one person got the whole thing on their cameraphone.

uncle phil

agreed...

suffer, you insensitive bastard...

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"We were wrong, terribly wrong. (We) should not have tried to fight a guerrilla war with conventional military tactics against a foe willing to absorb enormous casualties...in a country lacking the fundamental political stability necessary to conduct effective military and pacification operations. It could not be done and it was not done."
- Robert S. McNamara
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We will leave you your small joys and smaller troubles."
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never wrestle with a pig.
you both get dirty;
the pig likes it.

Jimellow

The video doesn't show much. The whole ordeal doesn't seem very official though. I assumed that a figure of such fame and notoriety would receive an execution that looked a little more professionally, or perhaps officially, done.

Also, from the looks of the closing shots, it seemed his neck snapped, and I'm curious if that was intentionally done to prevent the struggle that results from strangulation. The noose appeared to be fastened to the side, and I wonder if that increases the chances of a broken neck instead of strangulation?

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powerclown

That's the sense I got as well.

As if it was done in a back alley, chaotic and random, without legal decree, without any sense of central authority, without any sense of law or order, without any sense of progress. Instead, we get dark, creepy, hooded motherfuckers in street clothes scuttling about in the dark, chanting religious incantations.

It should have been done in front of the lights, center stage, pomp and circumstance, starched uniforms, official state ceremony, crowds of his victims' families, with members of the legitimately elected Iraqi government looking on.

host

Maybe if the 'Saddam is hanged - How about his accomplices ?' thread that I started in this forum had not been moved to the "P" word forum, it would be easier to find it and some of the answers that are provided there.

Saddam knew where all of the bodies were buried, i.e., who his accomplices were, and what they promised him and did for him to facilitate his crimes against humanity. This goes a long way to explain the isolation that he was kept in and the swift execution of his sentence in the dark of night. The folks who brought about "justice" for Saddam have hands nearly as unclean as his are.

It is probably better for you, if you've voted for and supported some of his accomplices, that his incarceration, trial, and execution were handled in this way. Since you are still wondering why he was quickly executed in the manner that was reported, I ssupect that you don't know why because you've chosen to avoid knowing.

*Nikki*

Strongly AGREE.

ratbastid

Totally not the point. The point is, an impartial and fair trial would remove, beyond the shadow of a doubt, the stench of US manipulation on the outcome. It would have left the verdict and sentence invulnerable to rhetorical attack in the future. As it was done, the result is extremely vulnerable to questions in the future.

Willravel

That depends greatly on the next 25-30 years of US history. If, by some mericle, the US is able to remain a superpower, it's possible that it'll be too late to truely question the then history books becuase those currently in power and their future replacements will have smudged or even removed so much information about it.

ktspktsp

I'm generally against the death penalty, but having tyrants be killed does not necessarily bother me that much. However I have several issues with this..

The trial seemed highly inadequate and unprofessional, and then the execution seemed messy and overly swift. There was so much more crimes that he did that needed to be covered (that he should have been sued for), from the gassing of the Kurds to the quelling of the Shia uprisings to the fate of the Marsh Arabs.

Unfortunately now it just looks like a quick execution because they did not know what to do with the man. It is an execution borne out of weakness and fear rather than strength and justice.

And though I don't think his execution will necessarily make things much worse (I mean, things are quite terrible right now) I certainly don't see it as being helpful.

He was a horrible man, and his death, though something I cannot celebrate (I would've been more than satisfied with him living in a tiny cell for the rest of his days), is not something that saddens me. What does saddens me is the way it was done, which seems counter-productive and in a perverted way enhances his legacy in some circles.

cadre

There is no way that the US will not be blamed for every little thing that happens there, the trial of Saddam is no exception. No matter how it is handled there will be talk to the US tainting it. I'm not saything that the US isn't at fault or that they're not doing things that they shouldn't but even if the trial was truly impartial and fair, no one would believe it because people like to blame other people.

By the way you guys have interesting ideas for alternatives to the death penalty but I don't see them working. You would have to get alot of laws changed before you could put inmates to work like someone said. It would be called "cruel and unusual punishment." Sure, innocent people could get killed, and probably have but I believe that the death penalty remains one of the most efficient ways of dealing with true criminals.

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My life is one of those 'you had to be there' jokes.

Lady Sage

I love the way you think!

YES I am! If this make me the new antichrist then so be it.

No, it doesnt bring back the dead. What it does do is keep him from killing again.

I suppose just to make everyone feel warm and fuzzy inside we should let all the people on death row go. Let them rape pillage and burn to their hearts content. Perhaps after a few people in your family are harmed by them youll want us to go ahead and kill them as planned. At which point I would chuckle and say no.

Adopt a killer! Take it home with you, look after the killer and show them the proper way to live! Perhaps by being with you and seeing the error of their ways they can.... do you see how insane that is? Best we killed em.

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Ourcrazymodern?

Isis! I see getting castigated has only galvanized your thinking. Me, too.
The shadow of a doubt often dims the view, but in the case of (he who is now gone) I don't think there was one. Happy New Year!

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BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

host

Lady Sage,

(John 8:7), "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her."
Why do you trust anyone to condemn anyone else and execute them? Certainly the American politicians who were in league with Saddam were not of the moral standing to oversee his trial and play the roll that they played in his execution.

Consider that their motivation was to silence him to insure that he would never be a witness against them with regard to the crimes that they helped/directed him to commit.

A mod made it more difficult to find the citations to the evidence that I've posted to support my point, but it's there if you'll look for it.

In the US, this group has exposed the lack of integrity in death penalty prosecutions across the country:
http://www.innocenceproject.org/

The wealthy and politically connected never receive the same justice, with regard to the death penalty, as the common man does. I've posted evidence that Mr. Rumsfeld, and his successor, Mr. Gates, aided Saddam to a degree that qualifies them to be arrested and tried for crimes against humanity. Gates was just approved by the senate....rubber stamped to oversee the world's most powerful military, and it's intelligence apparatus, after he was designated for that position by a POTUS who should himself be tried for crimes against humanity, specifically the crime of instigating war of aggression.

Just so you know.....

Lady Sage

Good thing I am not christian and therefore do not believe a word of it. No offense intended.

Personally he had it too easy. He tortured people yet met a swift end. Would have made me happier if he would have met his end in a more... rustic punnishment with much screaming and begging and blood and guts.

Killind Saddam is like popping a zit. You still know it was there but it feels a whole lot better now that its gone. I believe I am due to be crucified now. Have at it, beat me good!

There are only 2 people on the planet that I will celebrate more heartily when they die.

__________________
If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Minds are like parachutes, they function best when open.
It`s Easier to Change a Condom Than a Diaper
Yes, the rumors are true... I actually AM a Witch.

Ourcrazymodern?

Now I'm REALLY wondering. Who are the 2?

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BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

Dilbert1234567

I don’t think any sane person suggests releasing people on death row, (unless proven innocent) but killing is still wrong. We should give them the rest of there life to prove there innocents, no I don’t think sadam can prove his innocence’s; I think he is guilty as sin, but killing is still wrong.

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host

No offense taken....the biblical reference was an exercise intended to stimulate your thinking.....an example of the hypocrisy of a "christian" nation that fully endorses the death penalty, not an attempt to convert you....

Wouldn't a more just, enlightening, and more beneficial turn of events have been watching Saddam testify before a senate committee....offering verifiable proof of the collaboration of American politicians and their appointees in knowingly enabling his crimes?

Picture Saddam detailing the contents of private messages he received during the 1980's from Reagan and Bush '41, or the intelligence reports from the CIA that they authorized him to have, enabling him to most effectively target Iranian troops in the war of aggression that he initiated, with the blessing of the US. How about his provision of details of a meeting he allegedly had with Carter's NSA chief, Bzrezinski, where he presented a "wish list" of American weaponry that he desired on the eve of beginning his war against Iran?

....or how much help he got from the US in devloping and deploying chemical and biological weapons, besides what has already been reported, or what encouragement he received from US ambassador Glaspie, in 1990, on the eve of his invasion of Kuwait?

If you believe that Saddam would not have made a credible witness, consider that he was cunning and intelligent enough to point to places where evidence of the reliability of his testimony, in many cases, could have been obtained.

A trial in an international court had the potential to pave the way for revelations of this kind, as opposed to the closed nature of how he was prosecuted and executed, under isolated American controlled "lock down", until his final moments. Who do you suppose benefitted most from Saddam's inaccessibility? Could it be those who defined the circumstances of his confinement, trial, and execution.

....and the revelation of the circumstances that allowed him access to spare oil field service parts and technical support, from Cheney's Haliburton during the years of the UN sanctions....the list of potential questions goes on and on, and the rushed, undignified execution of a man with the potential to reveal who among us, shares his deadly dysfunctional behavior....folks like....possibly former CIA director, and current DOD secretary, Gates, VP Cheney, and president Bush's own father, is not as trivial an act as popping a "zit" !

tcp

If Saddam were not given the death penalty, does that mean no one under him could recieve it?
A jury by your peers is best, and it does not require outsiders to pass judgement.
It's not important that Saddam dies, its important that the political machine he was a part of does.
I do worry whether Iraq was ready to carry out its own brand of justice, but that is on them.

host

The "sovereign" Iraqi state endured the spectacle of their former "evil dictator's" execution carried out on a US military base in the heart of the Iraqi capitol.

The highest Iraqi elected official brought the body of the executed man into his own office, after the execution, for a private "reception"....

The man who committed what the Nuremberg chief US prosecutor, Justice Robert Jackson described as the most serious crime against humanity, the crime of "aggressive war", by ordering an unprovoked invasion and occupation of Iraq by the US military, had recently flown to his Crawford, TX ranch, and knowing that Hussein would soon be executed, wanted the press to report to the world that he was already sound asleep in his bed, by 9:00 PM CST when the execution of Hussein was carried out.....asleep to the point where he was not "roused" to be informed....

Just some things for you to think about....before you "know what you know"!

soccerchamp76

Executioners have always worn masks/hoods for identity protection. The video quality is low and that could be the result of the low lighting.

__________________
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Chris Griffin: That would explain all the gravity.

host

Yup...there is an explanation for everything....nothing about this execution is extraordinary....our leaders are the models of legitimacy....how could they, or their judgment be illegitimate or dysfunctional ??
.....sounds "legit", above board, official and respectful to me....no, wait !!! It smells..... it sinks us as low as those we accuse and judge, IMO. If we buy into this, it might even make us bigger hypocrites than those we condemn.

Are we ordering our own troops to kill and die because we mistakenly plunged our military into the midst of a civil war ? Will we be shooting at the side we were backing on the day we executed Saddam on a US military base, in a country that our president declared as "sovereign", 2-1/2 years ago, today?

Is it justice, or "victors justice"....there's a difference.......

ratbastid

It doesn't just increase the chances, it's a whole technique.

If the noose is placed at the back of the neck, the victim dies a slow, miserable death from asphyxiation. The whole eye-bulging, bowels-vacating, death-ejaculating mess, that can take upwards of 10-15 minutes. If the noose is placed at the side, the weight of the body at the bottom of the fall snaps the neck and death is instantaneous and (relatively) dignified.

In the middle ages, it was common to tip your executioner to ensure you got the latter kind of hanging. Also, according to Neal Stephenson, some enterprising youths made good money clinging to the legs of hanged men, to help kill them quickly.

host

90 percent in the US were once in favor of invading Iraq, and now is a time for introspection....so we can avoid making the same mistakes again.....
Contrast yesterday with this:
.....the point is that the "something dark and fetid" did not "die" with Saddam, yesterday. It is alive in our leaders, in the hooded executioners who yelled "moktada", at Saddam, in his final moments, interrupting his attempt to pray, and, I fear...it is very much alive in the blind sentiments of too many Americans....

Fire

I have seen the video, and had about a day to think on it, and this is how I feel.....

First, he deserved to die, whoever else was also culpable, he deserved what he got.....

Despite this, I found the execution to be somehow not right, it just did not sit well with me, and I could not figure out why- THEN it hit me- What was important here was the way in which it was done, the FACT that of the people present he was the only one who appeared unafraid and unbowed, that the whole thing seemed like a back alley operation based on the idea that they had better kill him quick before something stops them- it was as if they were affraid of him, not that they had brought him to justice....

Lessons learned- Do not make an enemies execution undignified, on the chance that he will look dignified himself because of it.

Do not go about the cause of justice in the dark dingy undisclosed locations, but publicly, and with pride in Justice...(yes, I know public spectacles should be avoided, but have you seen the tape/photos )

The difference between justice and revenge is a thin line, and has a lot to do with how it looks- a uniformed firing squad in a well lit courtyard would have looked more like justice- this looked like revenge, and has probably made a martyr of a murderer......

Finally, if we go to the trouble to make an enemy look like a dangerous monster, a "Lion" as it were, then we should not kill him like a dog, because as stated above, he still looks to many like a lion......

So at the end of it all i am all for killing him, but all against how it was done.....

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Jimellow

I am curious about why the camera shot was lowered to the ground after he was dropped/hung. Was it out of respect, or just a result of jostling?

I am far more interested in the nuances and intricacies of the actual execution than the issue of whether he should have been executed or not.

Was the audience generally against, or in support of, him? What was he saying in his final moments? Where specifically did it take place, and how publicized was the location?

The setting and experience is fascinating to me. If one of those in the room at the time were a proficient writer and would put their experiences into words, I'd be very interested to read it.

__________________
Desperation is no excuse for lowering one's standards.

Ch'i

Truly repellent, and with such ignorance. If you only knew how hypocritical your words were... or, maybe you do. Either way, you are not worthy of survival, and I hope we never meet.

Shauk

people don't realize how savage they are.

Host is probably one of the only people in this thread who hits on the information you should REALLy get to know before you pass judgement, unfortunately his presentation isn't direct and "in your face" enough for this MTV generation to notice.

I'm just at a loss for words really. It makes none of you any better of a man or woman to wish upon him his death. He's dead now. If you truely held life as a sacred thing, you would let it pass without spite. If a man has done evil deeds, then so be it, you can recognize that without gloating and celebrating death.

Ch'i

Lady Sage

How fabulously hypocritical of you good sir to threaten a woman who has done you no harm. Exactly when have I attacked you in a way to deserve this one from you?

__________________
If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Minds are like parachutes, they function best when open.
It`s Easier to Change a Condom Than a Diaper
Yes, the rumors are true... I actually AM a Witch.

Ourcrazymodern?

Ch'i, what a noise you've made! It was nearly violent...

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Ch'i

There are no threats in my words, violent or otherwise. You've spoken volumes on your character in this thread, and I've found it to be despicable.

Willravel

Threaten? I'd venture to guess it was more anger and disapointment than anything else. I very seriously doubt that Ch'i means you any harm, in fact I doubt he means anyone harm, being a pacifist. I don't mean to speak for Ch'i, but I think he means to make very clear that he strongly, strongly disagrees with you. Torture is evil no matter who is being tortured, and the death penalty is evil because it serves no purpous but vengence.

Ch'i

Precisely.

Lady Sage

I do not begrudge anyone their point of view. Nor do I mind being viewed as the proverbial antichrist. Truthfully, I find it funny how one view could make me such a bad person.

I will not however view the posts of someone who types to me in such a way. I find it sad since someone I once admired has now made the list.

__________________
If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Minds are like parachutes, they function best when open.
It`s Easier to Change a Condom Than a Diaper
Yes, the rumors are true... I actually AM a Witch.

Dilbert1234567

Grow up you two,

Lady Sage:

That is offensive to people who think no one deserves to die; I know you did not mean to offend, you just feel very strongly, and believe, that all the harm he has done makes him deserve the death penalty.

Ch'i:

Ch'I, Ch'I, Ch'i…. calling people ignorant is no was to win an argument, its how more people get killed. Even though we believe that killing was not justified under this circumstance, it is still the law in that country, and in parts of ours, and we must be respectful of the laws. We should fight to change the laws, but legally.

Come on now, group hug.

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Lady Sage

I give kudos for Host, Mr Ravel and you as well Dilbert and a few others. Thank you for stating your replies the way you did and thank you as well for not taking mine personally.

You stated your views in a very non personal way. I stated mine in a non personal way as well. I did not expect everyone to like them, nor did I expect to like everyone elses.

If Hitler had lived there may very well be no Jews left on the planet. I suppose that would have been alright in some peoples eyes. I am not a violent person. Some people, however, do deserve to die. This is not to say that I, myself, would kill them.

I did not like Saddam, nor did I love him. I do not feel pain at his death. It didnt make me lose any sleep. I do not and will not mourn him. I can not even prove that the person who was hung WAS in fact Saddam. I do however feel better knowing that if in fact the person who was dispatched was him, he can no longer harm any more people.

Now, let us bring our men and women home. It is my hope that his death signals the beginning of the end of our involvement in Iraq.

__________________
If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Minds are like parachutes, they function best when open.
It`s Easier to Change a Condom Than a Diaper
Yes, the rumors are true... I actually AM a Witch.

Ch'i

I'm not trying to win an argument. Lady Sage is someone I hold in contempt for her rash point of view. I do not repect it, will always despise it and fight it to my last breath. Ignorance, in her case, emphasized the exact meaning of her sentiment. I cannot stand people who would justify such a depraved retrospect.