florida0214

I subscibe to the Jerry Falweel Newsletter moslty for entertainment. I am, however a believer, but find Falwell a little over the top. Here is the latest letter from him.

Below is the letter I wrote to Mr. Falwell. I think I am right on, but this guy is kind of a under supported Hilter type. Wow Could you imagine the world if this guy had his way.
BYe Bye TFP


I just finished reading your letter about the CDS show Two and a Half Men. I have to say I found the article and the claim to be rather over the top. Did you miss the part where Kandy, another character in the show, changed the words of Jingle Bells? Do you think the writer of the original song may be offended? I doubt it. I am a regular viewer of the show and have found that this particular show is actually rather tame compared to some other shows on primetime. To get offended at something like this simply because you feel that this would not be done with another belief or with other civil liberties leader’s words is ridiculous. I don’t think that Muslims celebrate Christmas since it is a celebration of a God they do not believe existed, so then why would CBS choose to throw something about the Koran in an episode that was about a Christmas party that was never supposed to happen. You also have to understand that Christmas is the predominate celebration this time of year and to quote saying about Kwanza or Islam or Buddha would most likely not be understood or humorous to the demographic that watches Two and a Half Men. I believe there is a war on Christmas and I believe that Christians are losing. More should be done. It is not your responsibility to speak for millions of Christians nationwide. Doing that would result in the Conservative coalition becoming little more than a Christian ACLU or NAACP. Understand that all of these organizations believe that their ideas are correct and are willing to fight for it. This ideal is not unlike yours. I doubt that every idea the ACLU has is supported by every liberal or that every black person supports every idea that the NAACP throws out there. This idea you have about Two and a Half Men is not much unlike that. Two and a Half Men is a comedy television Show and is not to be taken seriously. It was meant to be funny and make people laugh. To think that the writers at CBS are attacking Christianity is a little big-headed. Get over yourself and grow up. Reach the world. Oh yeah if you did actually watch the show and this little bit of the song offended you, then maybe you should pay attention to the rest of the show. It gets much worse.

Anyway what do y'all think?

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Willravel

Wait, wait....people watch Two and a Half Men?

Yes, Jerry is another of the over the top, religious drama queen. Everything he does screams, "LOOK AT ME and God". Remember that this is the pro-Israel, anti-Clinton (have you read The Clinton Chronicles? Hahaha), attacker of innocent news and entertainment magazines, Penthouse and Hustler, and homophobic televangalist. He's the man that said of 9/11, "I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize America. I point the finger in their face and say 'you helped this happen." He said of homosexuality, "AIDS is the wrath of a just God against homosexuals." He is just another religious hypocrite, who's words are meaningless. Even if I were a die hard christian, I'd reject his words as those of a hypocrite. Hating people becuase they are different or becuase they live lifestyles that Christianity may not agree with is quite the opposite of what Jesus taught. Jesus dinned with tax collecters and prostitutes to show that Christianity is about inclusion, acceptance, understanding, and setting aside differences. At least it used to be.

I wonder if he has read the bible.

filtherton

I think that if jerry fallwell existed during the time of christ he would have led the charge to have jesus crucified.

xepherys

As a quick aside to the OP, Muslims do believe in exactly the same god as Jews and Christians. They, however, do not believe that Jesus was the savior and follow Muhammed as The Great Prophet. I'm not extremely well versed in the differences, but they are fewer than most people think.

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dlish

xeph.

the largest difference is that muslims accept jesus, not as god incarnate/son of god, but rather a prophet to humanity and that mohammad is came with the final revelation the quran.


as for jerry.. i think a stint on jerry springer wouldnt be out of the question.. they should call it "they're killing christmas"

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Lady Sage

*Gasp* Goodness, you mean he feels like his religion is being picked on? Say it aint so! Karma, sweet thing! Heres a mini version of what Puritans like Fallwell did to the Pagan religion(s). I think its fabulous he feels that way. How could I rub salt in his wound...

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Willravel

Tell him this:
That tends to bother christians.

Ourcrazymodern?

Maybe Comedy Central refused to broadcast an image of Mohammed on their network because of all the silly backlash known to happen? Xians seem to love all sorts of decoration, and to not have such thin skins.
I once reviled JF, but now I only disrespect him. He's too silly to hate.

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SirLance

As I Christian, I find my faith strengthened by the assault on it's symbols. Jesus warned us this would happen. Why do so many preachers not seem to know Jesus' position on these kinds of things?

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Ch'i

I'd be willing to bet a sizeable sum of money that many christian preachers either don't know, or understand the bible and its teachings. Its like a blind person driving a car.

shakran

It's not that. Religious leaders have been cherry picking from the bible since Gutenberg first printed it.

"Hey the bible says gay sex is a sin!"
And the same section also condones slavery. Funny how the religious leaders don't advocate that.

"The bible says God is all knowing"
And yet for some reason he constantly needs to test us, even though if he's all knowing he already knows what the results will be. The bible tells us that when God told Abraham to kill his own son, it was to test his faith. But since he's all knowing and therefore knows if Abraham is faithful or not, the only logical conclusion is that God is a sadistic jerk who's playing cruel mind games with poor Abraham. Combine that with modern day "tests of faith" (kids born with horrendous birth defects, little girls getting raped, etc etc) and the only logical conclusion is that either the bible is full of shit, or God is an asshole. I'm gonna go with option 1 there, considering the bible was passed down orally for hundreds of years before finally being written down. So even if god DID dictate the bible to the select scholars who were hidden from general society and could offer no conclusive proof that what they were saying was real beyond the fact that they said it was real (catching the sarcasm here?), human error has certainly twisted the original word of "god" into something with an entirely different meaning.

Lizra

Retarded people are far better than JF...they have an excuse for the dumb stuff they do....

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Willravel

That's an argument I have to make constantly. It proves that many parts of the bible are dated, and thus should have been adapted to the times. Sexism is another biggy.
This is an interesting one. Back when I was being indoctrinated, I always figured that God tested us for our benifit. One of the fundamental concepts behind spirituality and philosophy is to know yourself. The reason that many dieties will test their followers is not necessarily for their own divine edification, but in order to help their followers reach a more enlightened state, being aware of all the facets of their self. How do you know how faithful you are? Well, God asks you to go murder your own son in cold blood for no reason. Yes, God comes off as a sick son of a...well sick, but Abrraham was able to place his faith ahead of his family and even reason. He discovered that day what it means to be a religous fanatic, and he could now prove that those traits exist in himself. While most wouldn't call religous devotion to this degree as enlightened, the idea is that Abraham was able to reconcile any doubts in his mind about his faith. If you're ready to kill your kid for God, youir faith is pretty much unshakable.

shakran

Nope, doesn't work. Sorry How do you explain severely retarded people? What benefit do they get from being unable to grasp the benefits?
An all powerful god can bestow the same end conditions (enlightened state) without torturing his subjects.

Exactly my point. God supposedly designs us with brains that can reason and then says we must not reason, rather accept everything on faith and do whatever he supposedly tells us even though there's no reasonable explanation for it. That simply doesn't make sense. If god wanted a race of enlightened beings, then he's going about it the wrong way. Enlightened beings are capable of thinking for themselves and critically analyzing facts to reach their conclusion. Following the bible demands the exact opposite. It simply doesn't make sense.

Or you're a total psychopath and/or idiot who puts the demands of a cruel, twisted being above the welfare of your children.

Willravel

I meant in the case of Abraham (or Jonus, Jesus?, Matthew, John, Jobe, etc.). Biblical stuff.
Hardship builds character, and that's according to the rules God set when he created the human psychi...if you believe in such things.
That's why I left the faith.
That's why I used the label religous fanatic. No reaosnable person could kill their own son at the request of a figment of their imagination. That takes the type of devotion that any church seeks out, but any reasonable person would dismiss as madness.

Infinite_Loser

Well... You left out one teeny tiny tidbit.

The Bible doesn't condemn slavery, but it commands slave owners to treat their slaves as they would their own kin. The accepted slavery depicted in the Bible was/is vastly different to the concept of slavery that exists today.

Funny how you forgot to mention that.

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Willravel

The statement in the bible assumes that slavery is acceptable, and no where in the bible does it explicetly say that slavery is wrong. While I don't really follow the bible anymore, I am familiar with it:

- "And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free: Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever." (Exodus 21:5-6) God not only condones slavery, but advocates violence against them.

The bible condones slavery (real slavery, with violence and misteatment) because it was written by slave owners. It'd be nice if the OT were written this way to be more palatbable to the times, but if God wrote this, he had to know it would be around for thousands of years and it's implications would be far reaching. The only conclusions to draw are: slavery is okay, or God doesn't exist.

FoolThemAll

What? I must be misunderstanding the context here or something. There's at least two other possible -and obvious - conclusions: (1)the Bible doesn't 100% accurately represent the thoughts of God, or (2)the Bible doesn't represent the thoughts of God.

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Willravel

Well the idea that the bible is falable completly undermines the existence of God. God is God because of the words of the bible. If those words are called into question, so also are the words that explain God. Why would God allow there to be screw ups in the bible? So again, either the bible is 100% right, and slavery is okay....or the bible isn't 100% right, and the whole thing has to be called into question. When you call the bible into question, in other words when you allow reason or logic to be applied to the bible, the whole thing falls apart.

Either slavery is okay or God doesn't exist.

FoolThemAll

Uhm, called into question != debunked. And perhaps God allowed an imperfect Bible for the same reason - often given - for all other forms of deception in the world, hell, the same reason given for all imperfections in the world: it's another test, another trial, designed to make us stronger. You don't have to buy it, but it's buyable and your dichotomy's false.

Besides, there's other versions of God that don't require the bible at all. Deism, for one.

You're leaping.

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Willravel

When applied to reason, the books that form the bible can each be explained away as exaggeration, misrepresentation, misunderstanding, and intentional indoctrination for the purpouses of control. I recall there being a blow-by-blow thread somewhere in the depths of philosophy, maybe I'll look for it later. Bottom line: the bible is the story of the supernatural. In order to really believe in the supernatural, you must have faith more powerful than reason. If you find out that your faith is placed in something falable, what reason is there to keep your faith? Also, when I say "called into question", I mean applied to science and logic. The bible automatically fails that test.
Not at all. That's the same thing as the "we can't understand God" argument. It's not an argument, it's a supernatural excuse, and all circular arguments about the supernatural end the same way: the faithful say "it's a matter of faith", and the non-faithful say, "I win".
Well this thread is about radical Christian Jerry Falwell, so the bible is a good place to start.

shakran

I didn't mention it because it's irrelevant. Presumably this means "don't torture them." Well, not beating the hell out of them does not mean that it's OK to own them. That the bible dictates how one should treat one's slaves indicates that the author of the bible (presumably god) condones slavery. If the bible didn't condone slavery, it would say "don't HAVE slaves."

Infinite_Loser

It's not irrelevant by any means.

You're still not acknowledging the fact that Biblical slavery is/was vastly different than the definition of slavery in which we hold today. Biblical slavery usually consisted of one person willingly selling themselves to another in order to pay off their debts or to provide for their families. Rarely, if ever, did Israel take slaves when they conquered a neighboring group of people (They were typically commanded not to). So yes, the Bible condones slavery but it does so within certain parameters. However, to make a blanket statement that the Bible condones all types of slavery is faulty. The type of slavery (Racial prejudice) which occurred the last two hundred or so years would is not condoned anywhere in the Bible.

And, to Will, I quote Ephesians 6: 5-9;

<i>5Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. 6Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but like slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. 7Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not men, 8because you know that the Lord will reward everyone for whatever good he does, whether he is slave or free.

9And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him.</i>

And Collosians 4: 1;

<i>1Masters, provide your slaves with what is right and fair, because you know that you also have a Master in heaven.</i>

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Willravel

I'm not sure showing how the bible contradicts itself makes a good case for Christians. The verses you quoted don't negate the Exodus verse I posted, they are simply more mythology created by different authors and story tellers that accedenally contradicts itself. Mythology is useful in showing us our roots and our own nature, but trying to defend it as reasonable is the problem....and even worse using it as a weapon against those you fear or hate like our pal Jerry Falwell is disgusting.

FoolThemAll

I can't really think of a good answer to this, except to say that people find a reason. There are plenty of non-literalists who still hold to the Bible to some degree. They find a reason. Even if it's, deep down, something as unimpressive as wish fulfillment or something as vague as historical context. (But maybe IL has a clearer idea of such a context.)

You say "supernatural excuse" as if it's not a viable conclusion. I never said it was a logical conclusion. Neither is "the bible is infallible and slavery is okay", but you offered that as a possibility.

But more importantly, I'm not seeing how my "supernatural excuse" isn't an argument. It's an argument for a possible interpretation of this world with the assumption of an omnibenevolent/potent/scient being. You can evaluate it for internal logic - and I think it checks out - and then stop short of giving the God assumption a stamp of approval.

You want to argue that there is no logical proof for God that works? Cool, start a new thread, and it'll be a short one because I'll agree with it. But this is something different, and something perfectly counterarguable. It's an excuse involving the supernatural, but there's nothing supernatural about its workings.

But you'll need to go much further than just the start in order to justify an incredible statement like "either slavery is okay, or God doesn't exist".

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shakran

So as long as you owe me money it's OK for me to enslave you? I think you'll find yourself in the global minority with this outlook.


Yep, that's just what god should be condoning - slaves that are afraid of their masters. But remember, he's a just god who loves you. Slavery in any form, for any reason, is unacceptable. Arguing otherwise does not help your position regarding the bible. Let's not forget that many Africans sold their relatives to the US in order to pay off debts. According to your biblical argument, that means slavery was OK, except that you seem to have only one other problem with it - that being the racial differences between the slaves and masters.

Are you trying to tell me US slavery would have been OK if we had only raided a poor white country for slaves?

florida0214

The majority of people condone slavery everyday with their actions and spending habits. People call it capitolism and it is way too common. To say slavery is wrong is useless. I can sit in my chair all day and say thatfast food is bad for me, but it goes outthe window the next time I order a Big Mac.

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shakran

Really. So if I buy something I'm advocating slavery? Would you care to explain the logic underlying that conclusion?

florida0214

OKay lets take clothing for example. Well woudl you not consider people who work in east sian sweat shops or sweat shops in general slaves? Or buying fruit that was picked by somebody who was working to pay the coyotes who smuggled their families into the country. Human trafficing is the worst form of slavery that can be accomplished. It is a problem in this country and in most. Simply by buying some of the things we have to buy we are unknowingly and accidentaly supporting slavery and human traffikers.

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florida0214

Salvery is awful I agree, but what does this really have to do with Jerry Falwell? If y ou quote bible verses though you should really take them into context and quote the whole verse. I can quote half verses all day and get them to say all kinds of wonderful things that I can now do.

Example ... Commit adultery. Hosea 4:13

Back to dumd-ass falwell.

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Infinite_Loser

It's not all right for me to go out and actively enslave you if you owe me money (No one has ever said that), but you if you want to willingly indebt yourself to me then go right ahead. It happens quite a lot in our common day society, you know.

In the Bible the word fear is used to denote reverence (Especially toward God). It doesn't mean that one is to be literally afraid of someone (Or something) else.

Slavery in any form, for any reason, is unacceptable and arguing otherwise doesn't help my position on the Bible? Per chance, have you ever read it? The Bible doesn't condone slavery as a whole, but there are certain parameters under which it's permissable and which it isn't.

Biblical slavery involved selling yourself to another, not selling someone else to another. There's a fundamental difference between the two.

No, because:

1.) People were sold into slavery against their will. There's a difference between indebting yourself to another and selling someone else into slavery.

2.) Present slavery is/was based largely off race whereas, in Biblical times, accepted slavery was based off of economic status.

Nope, and for the reasons stated above.

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shakran

yeah, in fact i'm making car payments right now. But I'm not a slave to the bank.



"Do you not FEAR me? Do you not TREMBLE before me?"

That is not a description of reverence. If it is, God needs a new editor.

If it's permissible in a book that tells you what you are and are not allowed to do, then it's condoned. God, if he's the all powerful lord of everything the bible makes him out to be, would not permit something he did not approve of.


As for slavery in biblical times referring to selling yourself instead of being sold into slavery, you've forgotten the story of Joseph, who's brothers sold him into slavery. Clearly then, at least some times, slaves were sold by and to others.

pan6467

Plain and simple...... Bible written (or inspired by God) with a "New Testament".

Some guy named Jesus says on taxes "Give unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's, worry not about building a wealth that can be destroyed on Earth but lay up yourselves treasures in Heaven, for where your treasure is so be your heart"

To which the vast majority of "Christians" today say, "Down with taxes, I need more, more, more. Get a job you Bum" and the leaders say, "God told me to raise $3Million or he was calling me home." "We need an amusement park." "We need the biggest fanciest church in town."

Guy named Jesus says on judging others "Judge not lest ye be judged, worry not about the splinter in your neighbor's eye when you have a log", "Pray for your enemies."

Whereupon today's "Christians" and the leaders say, "You don't believe like we do you're gonna go to Hell." "They are attacking us and we need to fight back" "The evil press and liberals want to destroy us, we need to take more rights away."

And Finally, from what IMHO is the most important speech Jesus gave The Sermon on the Mount" I close with:
I would rather read my Bible, Tora, Qu'aran and live my life the way Jesus taught on the Mount, than listen and sell my soul to politically mad, greedy, what's in it for them dumbfucks that want to tell you how to believe and what to believe.... cause in the end Falwell, Robertson, the Pope, the Imams, the Holiest of rabbis..... all use religion to control, dictate THEIR beliefs and give excuses to hate, fear and kill others......

And yet I know of not 1 religion that truly tells anyone to kill, fear or hate anyone.

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FoolThemAll

It looks to me like you're oversimplifying his argument at the cost of crucial accuracy. From what I understood - IL, correct me if I get it wrong - he's making a distinction between slavery and indentured servitude, claiming that the latter is the only one condoned in the Bible, and asserting that the latter is okay.

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Willravel

Indentured servatuve assumes eventual release. Slavery is slavery. Not only that, but the Exodus quote I posted earlier proves that violent abuse is okey, too.

FoolThemAll

Define slavery as narrowly as you wish. This merely shifts the debate from "are Bible-condoned types of slavery wrong?" to "does the Bible condone slavery?". (Again, IL can correct me if I'm misrepresenting him.)

IL does seem to be facing a bit of a challenge in this thread.

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I wonder if we're stuck in Rome.

Willravel

Well if you need to decide what a word means, it must be defined. I usually just go to the dictionary for such things.
Complete ownership is different than working off a debt through servatude.

shakran

If by narrow you mean accurate, then thank you, we shall.