"Christmas" trees banned from airport
 

WTF? This is coming from my hometown... and totally baffles me.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003470331_trees10m.html


A brief intro... Man, I don't get it. AT ALL. I mean, I don't know what I would have done, either. But this does not seem like the right answer.

Hell, people "celebrate" "Christmas" in Thailand, where pretty much everyone is a devout Buddhist... I don't see people demanding statues of Buddha be placed equally alongside Christmas trees. They're DECORATIONS, not religious symbols.

Maybe it's my bias (please correct me if it is), but a tree is not religious... if anything, it's Pagan, by every right. There is not an ounce of Christianity in those trees.

How do you all feel about this?

I'm going to start calling the damn thing a Saturnalia tree just to see who freaks out. It's the truth, anyway. :p

Unfortunately, whether you call it a "Christmas tree" or a "Saturnalia tree", the thing is most definitely associated with Christianity. It doesn't matter that the Christians stole it from the pagans or that it's been further coopted by non-Christian societies, in this country it is absolutely associated with one of the major Christian holidays. Honestly, I see their point - if they're going to have to go out of their way to deal with all the symbols at this time of year, it's just not worth it. As it stands, there are probably maintenance guys at Sea-Tac that are happy that they won't have to mess with the trees in the future.

There's also the issue that it's a government building (state or local, I'm not sure - O'Hare belongs to the City of Chicago lock stock and barrel) and that the rabbi was within his rights to ask for the menorah. It's really too bad that the airport decided it wasn't worth their time, but again, I understand where they're coming from.

I, totally, completely agree with you fully 100%!

The world we live in needs to get off of the politically correct (PC) bandwagon and start realizing not *everything* needs to be equal.

If I put a christmas tree in my house, should I need to put up other religious symbols as well? Or only if I don't close the curtains?

I can understand the decision to remove the trees altogether as a means to resolve the issue quickly. But I would've told the rabbi to realize the difference with the pop-culture meaning of christmas trees, and the religious meaning of other symbols.

You know, I'm a big friend of the Chosen People. If I could have chosen, I'd probably have been born Jewish.

Here's the thing: Hanukkah is a very minor holiday of the Jewish calendar. It's gotten blown out of proportion because suddenly it's part of "The Holidays", and it has to compete with the 800lb Gorilla of the Christian calendar. If you actually ask a practicing Jew who doesn't have children, they'll mostly tell you that Hanukkah isn't that big a deal. They light a menorah, but It's not like Passover or Yom Kippur. It's not even as big a holiday as Sukkot, which most goyim haven't even heard of (I'm proud to say, I'm one shegitz who has shaken an etrog).

So for a rabbi to be insisting on equal representation of the Jewish holiday is just absurd victimization-mongering. Sea-Tac is right on one count: giving in to him WOULD open the doors of a slippery slope.

In my opinion, the airport did the sensible thing. Sure, it may be a downer that they took down all their trees, but it was the smart thing to do.

Somewhere there is probably a group of fuckfaces who would sue to have their inane religion's symbol plastered all over the airport just because the airport had Christmas trees. Smart thing to do is cut them off at the pass like the airport staff just did.

Upon further thought, to me the error was not in the airport's decision... perhaps it was the best they could do in such a short time. As I said, I don't know what I would have done. Probably shoved one of the trees up the guy's ass (regardless of religious preference) in a moment of frustration.

But seriously, the rabbi's decision to SUE the airport if they didn't display a menorah? That's just annoying. He could have asked nicely. Not that it would/should have made a difference, but jesus. (Oh, sorry, did that offend anyone? :) )

The whole thing is just annoying. Maybe that's because I'm not Jewish, so I wouldn't understand... but I agree with ratbastid. I have absolutely no problem with most Jews, but this kind of behavior is reprehensible... again, regardless of religion.

Interesting opinions so far, though.

If your house is somehow a public building used to transact business with the government, then yes, you need to put up other religious symbols as reasonably requested by members of those religions that request them. Otherwise you're free to do whatever you want in the privacy of your own home. Just as I'm going to feel free to steer clear of any future strawmen.

By going public, don't you think that Sea-Tac has basically made this rabbi look like an asshole? Seriously, there are going to be calling him the "anti-Christmas" rabbi or something very quickly.

Jesus Christ. I forgot to mention the part about Bill OReilly saying this is part of the "war on Christmas". What a douchebag that guy is.

I don't see the issue is a Jewish one... I see this rabbi's actions as that of an ass. He sounds like the same sort of person that would quibble if his slice of birthday cake was slightly smaller than anyone else's.

Charlatan, you nailed it the rabbi an ass! Don't blame an entire religion(not saying anyone did) based on the actions of old fart.

So, are there any Jewish TFP'ers with an opinion on this issue? (I apologize if any previous posters are Jewish, since it's not obvious...)

Airports don't need any of that stuff there. Leave the decoration to someone else.

I think the problem lies in determining whether or not Christmas is a product of American culture or Christianity. I think it has more to do with American culture since so many people who don't consider themselves Christians still celebrate Christmas. Therefore, I don't see a problem with Christmas being advertised or "forced upon" people. It's just a product of mainstream American culture.

This all reminds me of that South Park episode where things like this got so out of hand they eventually canceled Christmas and renamed it Winter Festival or something sterile like that.

Stupid. Simply stupid. Considering Christmas is now celebrated the most in the world's largest atheist country (China) it totally makes us foolish. People need to calm down and let people be. Christmas trees hardly threaten anyone. A Nativity scene then yes, you would have a decent argument on your hand but a Christmas tree? C'mon. A rabbi should know better. Hannukah is such a minor holiday. Pick your battles man.

Not all airports are owned by the government. Many are privately owned and operated.

It IS a war on Christmas, people freak out waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayy too much over these minor things.

nevermind...

Also consider that almost ALL of our "Christian" Christmas goods (and Easter, and all the rest) are MADE in China... our religious holidays do a good job of supporting their atheist economy, and no one seems to get very pissy about that. :rolleyes:

Anyway, as for essendoubleop's comment about Christmas being American mainstream... actually, I've always felt it was much more European (especially German) than anything else, and that Americans haven't added much to it since we borrowed it from them (other than hyper-commercialization).

Hahahahahahaha!! Good point abaya! This is the REAL conspiracy. The DaVinci Code had it wrong all along. I bet their excuse is that somehow all the stuff being made in China is a slow long term way of converting them.

Well that's just it. The hyper commercialization and iconography of Santa et al, has in effect, rendered Christmas to be a secular holiday. I would even argue that Thanksgiving is more religious than Christmas is. In this context, it stands to reason that a Christmas tree (or Holiday tree for you fanatics) is less of a religious icon than say a festive decor that brightens up the airport.

All in all, I understand what the rabbi is saying, but I definitely think he went about it the wrong way. Even he admits that he didn't want the Christmas trees to go away but rather, he wanted the menorah to be included next to the tree and get this, because it is a universal symbol of hope and triumph and not just a minor Jewish holiday symbol (since when? If so, why weren't we informed before of this wonderful inclusion?).

Where he went wrong was threatening to sue and forced the airport commission to take down the trees. Now there's a backlash and airport employees are saying that they will be bringing in their own trees to put on the counters. I thought the commission gave a very good explanation for their actions.

The interview is on cnn.com.

I wonder...

Would a native tree, flocked in white "snow", with small white lights for ice crystals, pass the PC test? People are free to see it as a Seattle winter display, or a humble Christmas tree.

IMO, Christmas trees have nothing to do with the birth of Jesus, and everything to do with marketing for mass consumption. The hypocracy of this particular rabbi, or anyone else that wants to make issue of how the winter holidays are experienced or expressed, clearly need to spend their time in more useful ways. Holiday trees in public places would be a great place to deliver canned goods for the food banks in the local area, for example.

It seems an easy solution to an invented problem to me.

Here's some follow-up from today's paper... it appears that the rabbi "did not mean for this to happen." Bah, humbug. Do you believe him?

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...irport11m.html

Overheard in the local tavern.....

First they killed our Lord, and now they want to eliminate any symbols that may remind us of his birth.:D

Amazingly enough, my history professor actually mentioned this story tonight before my final exam in that class. So just an interesting factoid that he gave us for all the Christians in the audience tonight. The original Puritan settlers of Thanksgiving fame originally had outlawed the Christmas holiday and fined anyone that did not work that day.

I was raised in a Jewish family (my mother converted to Reform Judaism before I was born).
It can under certain perspectives be seen that way, and probably is by many. Are you familiar with the Channukah Holiday and why the menorah is a symbol of that holiday? If not I would be more than happy to post a brief synopsis of it here. Yes, it is a minor holiday when compared with other Jewish holidays, but it is also the second most recognized symbol of Judaism (the first being the Star of David).

I personally have no problems with Christmas Trees being all over the place, however even though I do consider Christmas to be a non-religious holiday now, the fact is that most Christians still consider it a Christian holiday. As such when it comes to publicly owned or supported places, if one religions symbols are displayed, then they should be open to display any religions symbols if requested.

Words to hit someone by..... Michael Richards gets all kinds of flak for saying nigger, but I bet nobody made a comment about that

At least this year ... Sea Tac could get away with a tree with snow as a reminder of WHY it is important to Invest in Snow Plows! :D

I am very familiar with Hannukah. It is very much a minor holiday compared to the big three otherwise it would be the big four.

I was more surprised at the rabbi's insistence that the Menorah is now a universal symbol as opposed to an exclusive Jews only thing.

How one interprets symbols is one thing so obviously Christians will continue to observe Christmas as a Christian holiday. But it is no means exclusively Christian. That is the point. No one gets all bent over Halloween, another religious holiday (Wiccan?) at least not as much as Christmas. And what about St. Patrick's Day? Will the good rabbi now insist that the City of Chicago stop dyeing the river green or holding parades because it's a Christian holiday or will he sue to ask that some Jewish equivalent be given equal time?

I would agree with you if it was a nativity scene which is clearly religious. But a tree or Santa is the secular icon of Christmas. Similarly, another major Christian holiday, Easter, is also secularized. Think bunnies and eggs. An easter bunny display should hardly draw criticism from the anti-religious or hyper-sensitive non-Christian crowd. But a cross, then sure yeah of course.

The marketers were smart when hyping the holidays. To maximize their profits, they found a way to secularize the holidays and make them accessible to non-Christians etc.

My Jewish friends ALL celebrate Christmas. Which means we give gifts and wear Santa hats and get drunk. We don't pray or go to mass or read the bible together. We do put up lights and poinsettias but do not put up nativity scenes.

Hannukah on the other hand, has never been open to others in the same way Christmas or Easter has. That's why the rabbi's explanation is rather weak and lame.

If it was really that big of a deal to him, then he should have asked nicely and offered to pay for the display. Not threaten to sue.

I can remember big menorah displays in my community all the time. NO one ever threatened to sue. Some local group, quietly sought permission, and paid for it themselves. And it adds a nice touch to our community. The blue and white lights look nice and complement the red and green.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, sometimes we all get carried away and make a mountain out of a molehill. In this case, the rabbi definitely screwed up.

Some people just arent happy unless they are making someone else miserable. Perhaps he hopes to do with the jewish faith what MLK did with black rights. Some people will do anything for their 15 minutes of fame. *LeSigh

Just making sure, a lot of people aren't familiar with the actual story behind it.

Really? The supposed event happened before Jesus was around, so I would have assumed that it could be included within Christianity as well. But maybe that's just me being naive. And in the case that your using, the only reason it hasn't been as open as Christmas or Easter is simply because it hasn't been market whored out (yet).

edit: I apologize if what I'm saying makes little sense, i've been drinking and am not as coherent as I would like to think I am.

I am inclined to give the good rabbi the benefit of the doubt though. I believe he had the best of intentions but just executed it really poorly. It is also quite possible that even if he had done things the "right" way (EX: asking permission nicely first or offering to pay for a display), the commission may still have panicked and pulled the trees anyways in anticipation of a lawsuit. We can blame this one on a hyper-litigious society.

Hopefully this will all blow over soon.

Oh no dude, I think you misunderstand. I am referring to Hannukah not being open to others because Judaism in general is not an open religion, that is, one actively seeking converts. As such, the Jewish faith tends to be very private and exclusive. So of course, Hannukah wouldn't be "open" to others in that sense. Alos, Hannukah is NOT a part of Christianity as a religious holiday or what-not. (Although from an academic or historical perspective, the argument can be made for all Judaic tradition to be part of Christianity. I mean just look at Jesus and his followers for Christ's sake!! They were Jews!!)

Your second point is exactly what I am talking about as well. That is, the commercialization of a religious holiday. It is my contention that said commercialization has created a secularization of that holiday as well. It would not make sense to "commercialize" Hannukah in this sense

I assume you are done with finals then? :lol:

I think this is asinine, and completely brought on by everything that PC is doing to our country.

For one, yes it is a Christmas tree, not innately denominational of any religion, and even if it were, who really cares? For fucks sake, Christmas is a federal holiday.

Also I know this doesn't really bear into this discussion, but I saw it mentioned and I think it draws a fair-parallel. In my beloved hometown of the St. Paul Minnesota they killed the Easter Bunny last season...

http://differentriver.com/archives/2...-easter-bunny/


I can't believe people like this get taken seriously. I can't believe people are so afraid at the prospect of "offending" people they cower and cave into such asinine idiots.

Merry Fucking Christmas.

Ive said for years they should do away with the whole thing. Imagine how much money we would save!

(This sad attempt at humor was not meant to offend anyone)

*Slips alcohol into the eggnog...

I just got the balls to try eggnog for the first time (I'm 23) and I love it!!!

Back on track, I must say that Christmas is over commercialized and 8 trees was a bit much to begin with. I think one tree per public space is a lot better, it stands out more and still gets the point across (a purely Christian/Pagen point btw). As for public spaces, we really need to decide if it's so demeaning to other cultures to ignore the majority opinion (or in this case religion) so that the minorities don't feel hurt. If it is, then gut all mention of religion from the constitution, money and everything else. Otherwise, suck it up and move on...

......are you saying that Martin Luther King's aim- when he spoke out trying to advance the civil rights of black people- was to get his 15 minutes of fame? Are you serious?

I worship voluptuous naked women. Can we put some of them in the airport?

Keep the Christmas Trees and tell the rabbi no. Nobody has any balls anymore.

That statement ranks right up there with the rabbi, and the ready attorney claiming the rabbi never meant to sue. I think if you give a tad more thought to what Lady Sage posted, you will find she was not saying anything of the kind.

Are *you* serious? :|

(Oh, crap...another pm from analog about how I hound and persecute him):rolleyes:

Excellent point. "In God We Trust?" Who's we? I didn't sign up for that one... but I also don't care terribly much.

Actually, I was going to ask the same thing of Lady Sage... He statement is rather ambiguous and leaves it open to analog's interpretation (which is also my interpretation as well).

I too would like Lady Sage to explain what she meant.

Well, except that its seasonality DOES result in Hanukkah being commercialized, because it has been turned into "the Jewish Christmas". Look: one of my best friends is doing her annual job right now directing the Hanukkah play at the local Jewish elementary school ("Herschel and the Hanukkah Goblins", fyi. I dropped in on a rehearsal last week--it's freaking adorable.) They do a whole Hanukkah show at this school, with each grade doing a song or skit, and a major theatrical production with the 4th and 5th grades. That's out of all proportion to the importance of the holiday in the Jewish calendar. Why? Because it happens to be near Christmas on the calendar, and Christmas is such a big deal for all the goyim, something has to be done to keep all the Jewish kids from being sad. I mean... they observe Rosh Hashana, but they don't put on a stage production for it!

At least, that's my theory. Again, I'm an "honorary Jew" at best.

I remember when I was a kid at a private Episcopal school, we had a couple Jews who went there, and I remember asking one of them about Hanukkah, and did they get presents, and was it like Christmas. I was very nonplussed by how not-a-big-deal it was for him. How sad, I thought! Jews don't have Christmas! :lol:

I have to admit I was taken aback by her statement, too. I hope we just misinterpreted it.

As for the trees, I think the airport did the right thing. I don't think the trees are necessarily religious symbols (unless they have stars on top) but the only religion they are associated with is Christmas. Which is most certainly a very significant Christian religion. I think a multicultural display would be appropriate. It's a changing world. The make-up of the American public is changing and so are the attitudes that make up our national culture. Change is not a bad thing. Have your Christmas trees but recognize the other major winter holidays, as well. After all, it is a major international airport. People from all over the world are passing through it everyday.

And embracing Christianity is a major developing trend in China. I was just reading about it the other day. I can try to find it again if anyone's interested. Just as an aside.

I heard about this on NPR, on my way into work this morning. My first thought was, as many of you have already pointed out, that the "Christmas Tree" is a secular image of the holiday season. Much as Santa Claus is. Why is this guy up in arms over it? I mean, if anything, a Christmas tree is "borrowed" pagan symbology...not?

Most of you know by now that I am an atheist, and a rabid supporter in the seperation of Church and State. But you know what? I've got a Christmas tree. I went to my company's Christmas party. We exchange gifts...while wearing fun little Santa hats. And...I will be taking the day off from work, just like most everyone else. In other words...we "celebrate" Christmas. Of course, it means a little more to my wife than it does to me, but that's a whole 'nother issue.

I also agree that if it were a manger scene, then the Rabbi might have had a leg to stand on. If he wanted to make a statement, then he chose the wrong platform.

I am not even going to dignify that with a definition, think what you like.
Elphaba understood it without any explanation. I am taken aback that no one else can seem to. I prefer to allow others to view me as the antichrist at this point. If you want me to explain it PM me. :)

Well, I'm sorry, Lady Sage. To me it read like you were saying MLK exploited the civil rights movement for 15 minutes of fame. I will certainly take you word for it if I was just being obtuse. Sorry. :icare:

Why?
A. Anyone that's been around here for any length of time at all, knows that you are no "antichrist".
B. Let's face it...it wasn't very clear. I "misunderstood" as well.
C. Why not just explain what you meant? I don't want to see "battle lines" being drawn. Take the High Road.
D. Let's just put an end to any "slights" (real or perceived) right now.

Man it seems like everything bothers someone. I don't know anything about airports are they publicly or privately owned? If it's privately owned I don't see why they should pay any attention to this whiney old man.

Very aggravating behavior.

Maybe it's not the whiney old man we should be thinking about. Maybe it's the people who would appreciate some acknowledgement but aren't the type to make a lot of noise about it. Maybe we can just view the whiney old man as the impetus that made the airport consider some more inclusive options for next year's display. And perhaps their taking down the display this year was just a little bit of their own overreaction, for that matter. Maybe they could have released a statement saying that the display would remain as is this year, due to the lateness of the season, but they would be enlisting the input of people from different faiths, including the whiney old man, in coming up with a multicultural display for next year. Maybe both sides could have handled it better. I think its obvious that those who are fond of seeing Christmas displays in public places this time of year don't want to see them go. Why is it so difficult to give people who celebrate differently the same sort of acknowledgement?

Clearly, the man who complained is an idiot, and was deliberately seeking to cause trouble. Let's be serious, it is a christmas tree. Would a normal person be annoyed if one religion was represented but not others? If some symbol associated with the jewish community was present in an airport or the like, would you painstakingly survey the area to see if each and every other religion was receiving fair representation? People who do this obviously have some kind of insecurity complex. The world is in a sorry state when lip service is being payed to these PC obsessed nutcases.

And another thing, how come issues like these are only being raised now? Why not in the past? Christmas trees have been solely present in public places for centuries. The airport should not have caved in to this lunatic's demands, he is deliberately trying to make life hard. Just to add one more point, if there was a menorah at the airport but no christmas tree, do you think the man would have complained then?

The problem is the rabbi (aka "whiney old man") threatened to sue. I think that changed the context of things. Otherwise, your solution is altogether too reasonable and practical.

How am I, a Catholic/Christian supposed to acknowledge what isn't celebrated? What is so unreasonable about acknowledging Christmas, again A FEDERAL HOLIDAY, a holiday celebrated by 70+% of this country? Edit: Also it doesn't even come down to acknowledgment really. You don't celebrate Christmas? Great, no one forces you to. That's the brillance of this country, you have the right to free enterprise and free contract. Also if you are somehow trying to say to me that a christmas tree in a public place is forcing you too acknowledge anything, then all I can say to you is you are pathetic, weak minded, selfish, and worthy of my denegration.

People try and assert some bullshit about this being an issue of separation of church and state; it is not. To start Separation of Church and state is not the law of the land, it is a result of judicial activism in this country, this can be clearly noted by the fact that it is no where mentioned in the constitution of these here United States. Building off that all we have is the establishment clause which is held in the 1st amendment. I think anyone who thinks singing silent night at public elementary schools, or nativity scenes, or christmas trees as a violation of this establishment clause is both bigotted and retarded.

This country operated fine with these traditions for 200+ years, no ones rights were trampled, even though perhaps their feelings may or may not have been hurt because they couldn't play in the reindeer games, but to that I say grow a pair and get over yourself.

Argh, the PC patrol has come and swept away something else. Why does this kind of thing matter so damned much to people? If someone put a 500-fucking-foot tall menorah in the middle of Central Park, why should I be pissed about it? I refuse to say "Happy Holidays" to people. I'm not particularly religious, and I'm not particularly Christian, but my habit is to say "Merry Christmas". If you are offended by that... then fuck you! If a Jew comes up to me and says "Happy Chanukah" or "Shalom", I feel greeted and will return it with a "Merry Christmas" or "Peace Be With You".

Man this PC shit really pisses me off. I mean, I actually get vehemently angry when I hear shit like this. You know what? You don't want a giant Christmas Tree in your airport? Move to a country that's not primarily Christian. I wouldn't go to Israel and tell them to remove any Stars of David. I wouldn't go to China and yell at them for having a Buddha on the street. I wouldn't go to Baghdad and bitch about the crescent. In fact, it's not even just religious, it's cultural. I wouldn't go to Greece and bitch about the blue. I wouldn't go to Germany and tell them to stop drinking beer. It's just a part of Americana at this point, to celebrate Christmas. I know plenty of non-Christians that put up a tree and give gifts on the 25th of December.

Why is everyone so goddamned concerned with making everyone else happy. There's an old saying that goes something like, "You can make some of the people happy some of the time, but you can't make all the people happy all of the time". I have a new, 21st century saying to take it's place. It goes something like this, "If you don't like it, shut the fuck up and carry on!" Discuss!

UPDATE!!
 

Well it appears the trees have been reinstated.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6171937.stm

Kudos to everyone for working it out, especially the commission.

Alls well that ends well...................????

To each their own, I really didnt let it bother me. Those that know me in any aspect at all know I wasnt dissing MLK. I was dissing the Rabbi. *Shrug* Still if anyone wants a more in depth description, I will be glad to give it in private.

Where I work we simply go with Happy Holidays and winteresque decorations if any. This covers all of our bases as a celebration of season and not specific religion.

Dumb. "Christmas" trees predate Christianity by hundreds of years. All they had to do was put a david star on top of each tree for Judism and little dashikis for Kwanzaa. There are no Buddhist, Islamic, or Hindu religous holidays coinciding with the December holidays.

That rabbi is an idiot, and he should concentrate on teaching Judism instead of being outraged over stupid little things. Mr. Rabbi, you live in a country that is primarily Christian. Whether you like it or not, they will be represented more than Jews. Get used to it.

[sigh]

OK, the Founding Fathers pretty obviously were against the establishment of any sort of official religion in this country. At the time they were most concerned with primacy of one branch of Protestantism over any other, but it rang true for Catholicism, Judaiety, etc. That's the whole point of the "establishment clause". There's very little debate about that, although the extents that it's been taken have been labeled by some (rightly or wrongly) as "judicial activism". You may not see any problem with forcing Hindu, Jewish or Anamist kids to sing "Silent Night", but I sure do.

By the way, separation of church and state is indeed the law of the land as has been proven over and over and over. Ask the Alabama Supreme Court how that particular fight is going.

The country operates just fine under these rules and has for 217 years. The only major change has been the expansion into the school systems starting about 50 years ago.

As a frequent traveler, I'd just as soon not have any distractions like decorations in my way as I get from point A to point B as quickly as possible. That said, let's all remember that airports are, as an absolute rule, not privately held companies. They are government buildings. Make no mistake - state or city governments own every single commercial airport in this country with the only exceptions being ones owned by the federal government (Reagan being the immediate example). It is consistently one of the major sources of income for most cities with hubs.

The US Supreme Court ruled in 1989 that both Christmas trees (as opposed to nativity scenes) AND menorahs are sufficiently secular so as to not violate the establishment clause.

The rabbis was simply asking that a menorah be added. IMO, the whiny and narrow-minded are the ones who have verbally assaulted the rabbi.

The rabbi still went about it the wrong way by threatening to sue. He WAS being whiny though. He made a mistake and now he has to deal with it. No biggies there.

Whatever, what's done is done and hopefully everyone learned from it.

I agree with you. And furthermore, the rabbi never asked for the trees to be removed. Only for the inclusion of a menorah. Anyone who vehemently disagrees with his request is more than a little constipated on this issue. If the trees are no big deal, then why the hell do you care about the menorah?

I don't see how, since it's a Pagan tradition.

Yes because we know the Judiciary is infalliable... Dred Scott.

They should only be suited to be strict constructionist, they are stewards of the courts and the laws, thats why the people elect officials to make laws. Since judges aren't culpable to the people, I have serious qualms with them using words from Jefferson that are not legal, nor binding, nor in favor of this type of "separation of church and state" as dogmatic law of the land that is clearly pushing an agenda, this can easily be tracked by the explosion of these cases in the last 10 years.

You know what the real problem is? People don't understand that the concept of decorating a Christmas tree is, in fact, a Pagan tradition which some way or the other has been associated with Christianity.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/xmas_tree.htm

If they had put up a menorah then someone else would have undoubtedly claimed that they're religious beliefs were being left out or that they were offended by the showing of religious artifacts. Really. People can get angry over the most trivial of details. The way I see it, if you're offended the close your eyes, take a deep breath and move on. It's not the airport's duty to try to appease everyone.

Perhaps, but here in 21st century America those who decorate trees are celebrating Christmas and I will guarantee you that if asked, the vast majority of people would say Christmas if you asked them what holiday the decorated tree is associated with.

Besides, it hardly matters what religion the tree is associated with. The rabbi wanted inclusion. Why split hairs to deny him?

Next year they can just erect a giant shrine to Wal-Mart...



Fuckin' People...

Again, it was the way in which the rabbi went about it. Threatening to sue is a bit extreme to say the least.

In any case, this is all moot now as the matter had been resolved.

"Should be" seem to me to be completely irrelevant to the arguement before us. We're talking about the way it is, not the way that you wish is would be.

And Infinite_Loser, I'll be that if you ask people what religion a Christmas tree is a symbol of, they'll almost unanimously say Christianity. There will be a few smart folks like here that know and remember its pagan beginnings, but in the 21st Century, I think it's safe to say that it's been completely co-opted by Christianity. Just like the word "gay" has changed meanings, so has a decorated indoor tree.

I dunno' about that.

Now-a-day's a Christmas tree has a largely non-secular meeting.

I'm not sure I understand the port's slippery slope argument. If they put up a menorah, other faiths and traditions might want in. So? Let them in. Include anybody who wants to display their symbol for this time of year. I'm sure the Christian majority wouldn't be offended. I certainly wouldn't be.

As for whether the tree is a Christmas or a Pagan symbol, why can't it be both?

The food was great, the tree plugged in, the meal had gone without a hitch
Till Timmy turned to Amber and said, "Is it true that you're a witch?"
His mom jumped up and said, "The pies are burning," and she hit the kitchen
And it was Jane who spoke, she said, "It's true, your cousin's not a Christian"
"But we love trees, we love the snow, the friends we have, the world we share
And you find magic from your God, and we find magic everywhere"

So the Christians and the Pagans sat together at the table
Finding faith and common ground the best that they were able
And just before the meal was served, hands were held and prayers were said
Sending hope for peace on earth to all their gods and goddesses

from "The Christians and the Pagans" by Dar Williams

What does the way the rabbi acted have to do with the origins of the christmas tree or the "war on christmas"? I am addressing posts by people who seem to think the trees themselves are the issue here.

i may have come in a bit late for this, but heres my 2 cents worth anyways

in oz every christmas talkback radio shows get flooded with rednecks complaining that xmas trees and decorations havent been put up in shopping centres or theyve been put up late, and usually they target shopping centres where theres a large ethnic and muslim community. so they give the muslim community a bashing in the name of political correctness regardless of whther its true or not...usually not.

i live in one of the most ethnically diverse communities in sydney. i'm muslim, and being my liberal self, have noooooo problems with xmas whatsoever. neither does my conservative family! regardless of whther we celebrate xmas or not is another issue, but we are not offended by xmas at all, and i love going to the mall during xmas to see what the buzz is all about. the only thing i hate about xmas is finding a parking spot!

on the otehr hand, the rabbi could have been a covert tree hugger who just didnt want any more trees cut down. now thats a conspiracy!



for me

Traditionally we pagans like our Yule log. New times are among us however and most of us dont get around to burning one so most of us are happy with the edible Yule log. :D

I dont get bent out of shape, however, if my religious trimmings arent included in displays. That would make me a hypocrite since I do not put up a tree. :lol:

For some maybe, but the name of what we're talking about says it all - "Christmas tree". It's a purely Christian holiday, with some aspects of the holiday having been co-opted by other cultures. The ancient Romans would be proud.

My point is that enough of the meaning behind the icon still remains to make it a religious symbol to most. Symbols change meaning all the time - the swastika was a peace symbol for centuries before it was "borrowed" by the Nazi's. If you show a swastika to the same people that you show the Christmas tree to, the first reaction is going to be to a symbol of hate, not one of peace. There will be a few that recognize its past, but primarily people will associate it with Nazis and the Holocaust, which is certainly not what it originally meant.

I don't give a shit what decorations go up as long as they're not in my way and my tax dollars don't pay for it (White House lawn, anyone?)

Probably because it wasn't a racial slur. And maybe the person who made the comment wasn't standing on a stage shouting it to/at the crowd.

It's good to see that the trees made it back. I'd like to see what kind of cost went in to removing and re-installing the displays. I would like to see the bill end up on the desk of whomever made the final decision to take them down.

I don't mind tax dollars going into holiday displays for any holiday. In a country where we preach equality of religion, it's sad that the PC crowd makes that so difficult much of the time. Don't tax dollars pay for the giant tree in NYC every year? Besides, Christmas trees are less a religious issue these days than they are a cultural symbol. Is it wrong that most Christian holidays are federal days off while many other religions are not? But nobody seems to complain about it. It seems to me that people like to pick and choose...

I do not think that any monies come from NYC government coffers for the Rockefeller Center tree. If I recall correctly it is paid for by the owners of Rockefeller Center, just as Macy's pays for the Thanksgiving Day Parade, and the 4th of July Fireworks Spectacular. I am not sure as to who pays for the additional police force, but more than likely a portion is paid for by the sponsor as MTV pays for additional police to be around exitable teens on the street at TRL superstar shows.

If I'm not mistake as well the NY Eve celebration in Times Square is paid for largely by private dollars since the Times Square Alliance and the Times Square Business Improvement District help put on many productions that happen in the Times Square area. Money is generated by all businesses during any of these events so the BID and Alliances of many locations in Manhattan help put these kinds of things together using private funding and sometimes tax incentives, but no direct payouts from the city to my knowledge.