abaya

WTF? This is coming from my hometown... and totally baffles me.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003470331_trees10m.html


A brief intro... Man, I don't get it. AT ALL. I mean, I don't know what I would have done, either. But this does not seem like the right answer.

Hell, people "celebrate" "Christmas" in Thailand, where pretty much everyone is a devout Buddhist... I don't see people demanding statues of Buddha be placed equally alongside Christmas trees. They're DECORATIONS, not religious symbols.

Maybe it's my bias (please correct me if it is), but a tree is not religious... if anything, it's Pagan, by every right. There is not an ounce of Christianity in those trees.

How do you all feel about this?

I'm going to start calling the damn thing a Saturnalia tree just to see who freaks out. It's the truth, anyway.

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The_Jazz

Unfortunately, whether you call it a "Christmas tree" or a "Saturnalia tree", the thing is most definitely associated with Christianity. It doesn't matter that the Christians stole it from the pagans or that it's been further coopted by non-Christian societies, in this country it is absolutely associated with one of the major Christian holidays. Honestly, I see their point - if they're going to have to go out of their way to deal with all the symbols at this time of year, it's just not worth it. As it stands, there are probably maintenance guys at Sea-Tac that are happy that they won't have to mess with the trees in the future.

There's also the issue that it's a government building (state or local, I'm not sure - O'Hare belongs to the City of Chicago lock stock and barrel) and that the rabbi was within his rights to ask for the menorah. It's really too bad that the airport decided it wasn't worth their time, but again, I understand where they're coming from.

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Silvy

I, totally, completely agree with you fully 100%!

The world we live in needs to get off of the politically correct (PC) bandwagon and start realizing not *everything* needs to be equal.

If I put a christmas tree in my house, should I need to put up other religious symbols as well? Or only if I don't close the curtains?

I can understand the decision to remove the trees altogether as a means to resolve the issue quickly. But I would've told the rabbi to realize the difference with the pop-culture meaning of christmas trees, and the religious meaning of other symbols.

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ratbastid

You know, I'm a big friend of the Chosen People. If I could have chosen, I'd probably have been born Jewish.

Here's the thing: Hanukkah is a very minor holiday of the Jewish calendar. It's gotten blown out of proportion because suddenly it's part of "The Holidays", and it has to compete with the 800lb Gorilla of the Christian calendar. If you actually ask a practicing Jew who doesn't have children, they'll mostly tell you that Hanukkah isn't that big a deal. They light a menorah, but It's not like Passover or Yom Kippur. It's not even as big a holiday as Sukkot, which most goyim haven't even heard of (I'm proud to say, I'm one shegitz who has shaken an etrog).

So for a rabbi to be insisting on equal representation of the Jewish holiday is just absurd victimization-mongering. Sea-Tac is right on one count: giving in to him WOULD open the doors of a slippery slope.

Carno

In my opinion, the airport did the sensible thing. Sure, it may be a downer that they took down all their trees, but it was the smart thing to do.

Somewhere there is probably a group of fuckfaces who would sue to have their inane religion's symbol plastered all over the airport just because the airport had Christmas trees. Smart thing to do is cut them off at the pass like the airport staff just did.

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abaya

Upon further thought, to me the error was not in the airport's decision... perhaps it was the best they could do in such a short time. As I said, I don't know what I would have done. Probably shoved one of the trees up the guy's ass (regardless of religious preference) in a moment of frustration.

But seriously, the rabbi's decision to SUE the airport if they didn't display a menorah? That's just annoying. He could have asked nicely. Not that it would/should have made a difference, but jesus. (Oh, sorry, did that offend anyone? )

The whole thing is just annoying. Maybe that's because I'm not Jewish, so I wouldn't understand... but I agree with ratbastid. I have absolutely no problem with most Jews, but this kind of behavior is reprehensible... again, regardless of religion.

Interesting opinions so far, though.

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The_Jazz

If your house is somehow a public building used to transact business with the government, then yes, you need to put up other religious symbols as reasonably requested by members of those religions that request them. Otherwise you're free to do whatever you want in the privacy of your own home. Just as I'm going to feel free to steer clear of any future strawmen.

By going public, don't you think that Sea-Tac has basically made this rabbi look like an asshole? Seriously, there are going to be calling him the "anti-Christmas" rabbi or something very quickly.

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Carno

Jesus Christ. I forgot to mention the part about Bill OReilly saying this is part of the "war on Christmas". What a douchebag that guy is.

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Charlatan

I don't see the issue is a Jewish one... I see this rabbi's actions as that of an ass. He sounds like the same sort of person that would quibble if his slice of birthday cake was slightly smaller than anyone else's.

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Brewmaniac

Charlatan, you nailed it the rabbi an ass! Don't blame an entire religion(not saying anyone did) based on the actions of old fart.

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abaya

So, are there any Jewish TFP'ers with an opinion on this issue? (I apologize if any previous posters are Jewish, since it's not obvious...)

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Toaster126

Airports don't need any of that stuff there. Leave the decoration to someone else.

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essendoubleop

I think the problem lies in determining whether or not Christmas is a product of American culture or Christianity. I think it has more to do with American culture since so many people who don't consider themselves Christians still celebrate Christmas. Therefore, I don't see a problem with Christmas being advertised or "forced upon" people. It's just a product of mainstream American culture.

jorgelito

This all reminds me of that South Park episode where things like this got so out of hand they eventually canceled Christmas and renamed it Winter Festival or something sterile like that.

Stupid. Simply stupid. Considering Christmas is now celebrated the most in the world's largest atheist country (China) it totally makes us foolish. People need to calm down and let people be. Christmas trees hardly threaten anyone. A Nativity scene then yes, you would have a decent argument on your hand but a Christmas tree? C'mon. A rabbi should know better. Hannukah is such a minor holiday. Pick your battles man.

Not all airports are owned by the government. Many are privately owned and operated.

It IS a war on Christmas, people freak out waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayy too much over these minor things.

Coppertop

nevermind...

abaya

Also consider that almost ALL of our "Christian" Christmas goods (and Easter, and all the rest) are MADE in China... our religious holidays do a good job of supporting their atheist economy, and no one seems to get very pissy about that.

Anyway, as for essendoubleop's comment about Christmas being American mainstream... actually, I've always felt it was much more European (especially German) than anything else, and that Americans haven't added much to it since we borrowed it from them (other than hyper-commercialization).

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jorgelito

Hahahahahahaha!! Good point abaya! This is the REAL conspiracy. The DaVinci Code had it wrong all along. I bet their excuse is that somehow all the stuff being made in China is a slow long term way of converting them.

Well that's just it. The hyper commercialization and iconography of Santa et al, has in effect, rendered Christmas to be a secular holiday. I would even argue that Thanksgiving is more religious than Christmas is. In this context, it stands to reason that a Christmas tree (or Holiday tree for you fanatics) is less of a religious icon than say a festive decor that brightens up the airport.

All in all, I understand what the rabbi is saying, but I definitely think he went about it the wrong way. Even he admits that he didn't want the Christmas trees to go away but rather, he wanted the menorah to be included next to the tree and get this, because it is a universal symbol of hope and triumph and not just a minor Jewish holiday symbol (since when? If so, why weren't we informed before of this wonderful inclusion?).

Where he went wrong was threatening to sue and forced the airport commission to take down the trees. Now there's a backlash and airport employees are saying that they will be bringing in their own trees to put on the counters. I thought the commission gave a very good explanation for their actions.

The interview is on cnn.com.

Elphaba

I wonder...

Would a native tree, flocked in white "snow", with small white lights for ice crystals, pass the PC test? People are free to see it as a Seattle winter display, or a humble Christmas tree.

IMO, Christmas trees have nothing to do with the birth of Jesus, and everything to do with marketing for mass consumption. The hypocracy of this particular rabbi, or anyone else that wants to make issue of how the winter holidays are experienced or expressed, clearly need to spend their time in more useful ways. Holiday trees in public places would be a great place to deliver canned goods for the food banks in the local area, for example.

It seems an easy solution to an invented problem to me.

abaya

Here's some follow-up from today's paper... it appears that the rabbi "did not mean for this to happen." Bah, humbug. Do you believe him?

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...irport11m.html

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flstf

Overheard in the local tavern.....

First they killed our Lord, and now they want to eliminate any symbols that may remind us of his birth.

MageB420666

Amazingly enough, my history professor actually mentioned this story tonight before my final exam in that class. So just an interesting factoid that he gave us for all the Christians in the audience tonight. The original Puritan settlers of Thanksgiving fame originally had outlawed the Christmas holiday and fined anyone that did not work that day.

I was raised in a Jewish family (my mother converted to Reform Judaism before I was born).
It can under certain perspectives be seen that way, and probably is by many. Are you familiar with the Channukah Holiday and why the menorah is a symbol of that holiday? If not I would be more than happy to post a brief synopsis of it here. Yes, it is a minor holiday when compared with other Jewish holidays, but it is also the second most recognized symbol of Judaism (the first being the Star of David).

I personally have no problems with Christmas Trees being all over the place, however even though I do consider Christmas to be a non-religious holiday now, the fact is that most Christians still consider it a Christian holiday. As such when it comes to publicly owned or supported places, if one religions symbols are displayed, then they should be open to display any religions symbols if requested.

Words to hit someone by..... Michael Richards gets all kinds of flak for saying nigger, but I bet nobody made a comment about that

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amonkie

At least this year ... Sea Tac could get away with a tree with snow as a reminder of WHY it is important to Invest in Snow Plows!

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jorgelito

I am very familiar with Hannukah. It is very much a minor holiday compared to the big three otherwise it would be the big four.

I was more surprised at the rabbi's insistence that the Menorah is now a universal symbol as opposed to an exclusive Jews only thing.

How one interprets symbols is one thing so obviously Christians will continue to observe Christmas as a Christian holiday. But it is no means exclusively Christian. That is the point. No one gets all bent over Halloween, another religious holiday (Wiccan?) at least not as much as Christmas. And what about St. Patrick's Day? Will the good rabbi now insist that the City of Chicago stop dyeing the river green or holding parades because it's a Christian holiday or will he sue to ask that some Jewish equivalent be given equal time?

I would agree with you if it was a nativity scene which is clearly religious. But a tree or Santa is the secular icon of Christmas. Similarly, another major Christian holiday, Easter, is also secularized. Think bunnies and eggs. An easter bunny display should hardly draw criticism from the anti-religious or hyper-sensitive non-Christian crowd. But a cross, then sure yeah of course.

The marketers were smart when hyping the holidays. To maximize their profits, they found a way to secularize the holidays and make them accessible to non-Christians etc.

My Jewish friends ALL celebrate Christmas. Which means we give gifts and wear Santa hats and get drunk. We don't pray or go to mass or read the bible together. We do put up lights and poinsettias but do not put up nativity scenes.

Hannukah on the other hand, has never been open to others in the same way Christmas or Easter has. That's why the rabbi's explanation is rather weak and lame.

If it was really that big of a deal to him, then he should have asked nicely and offered to pay for the display. Not threaten to sue.

I can remember big menorah displays in my community all the time. NO one ever threatened to sue. Some local group, quietly sought permission, and paid for it themselves. And it adds a nice touch to our community. The blue and white lights look nice and complement the red and green.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, sometimes we all get carried away and make a mountain out of a molehill. In this case, the rabbi definitely screwed up.

Lady Sage

Some people just arent happy unless they are making someone else miserable. Perhaps he hopes to do with the jewish faith what MLK did with black rights. Some people will do anything for their 15 minutes of fame. *LeSigh

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MageB420666

Just making sure, a lot of people aren't familiar with the actual story behind it.

Really? The supposed event happened before Jesus was around, so I would have assumed that it could be included within Christianity as well. But maybe that's just me being naive. And in the case that your using, the only reason it hasn't been as open as Christmas or Easter is simply because it hasn't been market whored out (yet).

edit: I apologize if what I'm saying makes little sense, i've been drinking and am not as coherent as I would like to think I am.

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jorgelito

I am inclined to give the good rabbi the benefit of the doubt though. I believe he had the best of intentions but just executed it really poorly. It is also quite possible that even if he had done things the "right" way (EX: asking permission nicely first or offering to pay for a display), the commission may still have panicked and pulled the trees anyways in anticipation of a lawsuit. We can blame this one on a hyper-litigious society.

Hopefully this will all blow over soon.

Oh no dude, I think you misunderstand. I am referring to Hannukah not being open to others because Judaism in general is not an open religion, that is, one actively seeking converts. As such, the Jewish faith tends to be very private and exclusive. So of course, Hannukah wouldn't be "open" to others in that sense. Alos, Hannukah is NOT a part of Christianity as a religious holiday or what-not. (Although from an academic or historical perspective, the argument can be made for all Judaic tradition to be part of Christianity. I mean just look at Jesus and his followers for Christ's sake!! They were Jews!!)

Your second point is exactly what I am talking about as well. That is, the commercialization of a religious holiday. It is my contention that said commercialization has created a secularization of that holiday as well. It would not make sense to "commercialize" Hannukah in this sense

I assume you are done with finals then?

Mojo_PeiPei

I think this is asinine, and completely brought on by everything that PC is doing to our country.

For one, yes it is a Christmas tree, not innately denominational of any religion, and even if it were, who really cares? For fucks sake, Christmas is a federal holiday.

Also I know this doesn't really bear into this discussion, but I saw it mentioned and I think it draws a fair-parallel. In my beloved hometown of the St. Paul Minnesota they killed the Easter Bunny last season...

http://differentriver.com/archives/2...-easter-bunny/


I can't believe people like this get taken seriously. I can't believe people are so afraid at the prospect of "offending" people they cower and cave into such asinine idiots.

Merry Fucking Christmas.

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Lady Sage

Ive said for years they should do away with the whole thing. Imagine how much money we would save!

(This sad attempt at humor was not meant to offend anyone)

*Slips alcohol into the eggnog...

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basmoq

I just got the balls to try eggnog for the first time (I'm 23) and I love it!!!

Back on track, I must say that Christmas is over commercialized and 8 trees was a bit much to begin with. I think one tree per public space is a lot better, it stands out more and still gets the point across (a purely Christian/Pagen point btw). As for public spaces, we really need to decide if it's so demeaning to other cultures to ignore the majority opinion (or in this case religion) so that the minorities don't feel hurt. If it is, then gut all mention of religion from the constitution, money and everything else. Otherwise, suck it up and move on...

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analog

......are you saying that Martin Luther King's aim- when he spoke out trying to advance the civil rights of black people- was to get his 15 minutes of fame? Are you serious?

SirLance

I worship voluptuous naked women. Can we put some of them in the airport?

Keep the Christmas Trees and tell the rabbi no. Nobody has any balls anymore.

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Elphaba

That statement ranks right up there with the rabbi, and the ready attorney claiming the rabbi never meant to sue. I think if you give a tad more thought to what Lady Sage posted, you will find she was not saying anything of the kind.

Are *you* serious?

(Oh, crap...another pm from analog about how I hound and persecute him)

abaya

Excellent point. "In God We Trust?" Who's we? I didn't sign up for that one... but I also don't care terribly much.

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Charlatan

Actually, I was going to ask the same thing of Lady Sage... He statement is rather ambiguous and leaves it open to analog's interpretation (which is also my interpretation as well).

I too would like Lady Sage to explain what she meant.

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ratbastid

Well, except that its seasonality DOES result in Hanukkah being commercialized, because it has been turned into "the Jewish Christmas". Look: one of my best friends is doing her annual job right now directing the Hanukkah play at the local Jewish elementary school ("Herschel and the Hanukkah Goblins", fyi. I dropped in on a rehearsal last week--it's freaking adorable.) They do a whole Hanukkah show at this school, with each grade doing a song or skit, and a major theatrical production with the 4th and 5th grades. That's out of all proportion to the importance of the holiday in the Jewish calendar. Why? Because it happens to be near Christmas on the calendar, and Christmas is such a big deal for all the goyim, something has to be done to keep all the Jewish kids from being sad. I mean... they observe Rosh Hashana, but they don't put on a stage production for it!

At least, that's my theory. Again, I'm an "honorary Jew" at best.

I remember when I was a kid at a private Episcopal school, we had a couple Jews who went there, and I remember asking one of them about Hanukkah, and did they get presents, and was it like Christmas. I was very nonplussed by how not-a-big-deal it was for him. How sad, I thought! Jews don't have Christmas!

mixedmedia

I have to admit I was taken aback by her statement, too. I hope we just misinterpreted it.

As for the trees, I think the airport did the right thing. I don't think the trees are necessarily religious symbols (unless they have stars on top) but the only religion they are associated with is Christmas. Which is most certainly a very significant Christian religion. I think a multicultural display would be appropriate. It's a changing world. The make-up of the American public is changing and so are the attitudes that make up our national culture. Change is not a bad thing. Have your Christmas trees but recognize the other major winter holidays, as well. After all, it is a major international airport. People from all over the world are passing through it everyday.

And embracing Christianity is a major developing trend in China. I was just reading about it the other day. I can try to find it again if anyone's interested. Just as an aside.

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Bill O'Rights

I heard about this on NPR, on my way into work this morning. My first thought was, as many of you have already pointed out, that the "Christmas Tree" is a secular image of the holiday season. Much as Santa Claus is. Why is this guy up in arms over it? I mean, if anything, a Christmas tree is "borrowed" pagan symbology...not?

Most of you know by now that I am an atheist, and a rabid supporter in the seperation of Church and State. But you know what? I've got a Christmas tree. I went to my company's Christmas party. We exchange gifts...while wearing fun little Santa hats. And...I will be taking the day off from work, just like most everyone else. In other words...we "celebrate" Christmas. Of course, it means a little more to my wife than it does to me, but that's a whole 'nother issue.

I also agree that if it were a manger scene, then the Rabbi might have had a leg to stand on. If he wanted to make a statement, then he chose the wrong platform.

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Lady Sage

I am not even going to dignify that with a definition, think what you like.
Elphaba understood it without any explanation. I am taken aback that no one else can seem to. I prefer to allow others to view me as the antichrist at this point. If you want me to explain it PM me.

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mixedmedia

Well, I'm sorry, Lady Sage. To me it read like you were saying MLK exploited the civil rights movement for 15 minutes of fame. I will certainly take you word for it if I was just being obtuse. Sorry.

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PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Bill O'Rights

Why?
A. Anyone that's been around here for any length of time at all, knows that you are no "antichrist".
B. Let's face it...it wasn't very clear. I "misunderstood" as well.
C. Why not just explain what you meant? I don't want to see "battle lines" being drawn. Take the High Road.
D. Let's just put an end to any "slights" (real or perceived) right now.

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