DaElf

Man it seems like everything bothers someone. I don't know anything about airports are they publicly or privately owned? If it's privately owned I don't see why they should pay any attention to this whiney old man.

Very aggravating behavior.

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mixedmedia

Maybe it's not the whiney old man we should be thinking about. Maybe it's the people who would appreciate some acknowledgement but aren't the type to make a lot of noise about it. Maybe we can just view the whiney old man as the impetus that made the airport consider some more inclusive options for next year's display. And perhaps their taking down the display this year was just a little bit of their own overreaction, for that matter. Maybe they could have released a statement saying that the display would remain as is this year, due to the lateness of the season, but they would be enlisting the input of people from different faiths, including the whiney old man, in coming up with a multicultural display for next year. Maybe both sides could have handled it better. I think its obvious that those who are fond of seeing Christmas displays in public places this time of year don't want to see them go. Why is it so difficult to give people who celebrate differently the same sort of acknowledgement?

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Mark23

Clearly, the man who complained is an idiot, and was deliberately seeking to cause trouble. Let's be serious, it is a christmas tree. Would a normal person be annoyed if one religion was represented but not others? If some symbol associated with the jewish community was present in an airport or the like, would you painstakingly survey the area to see if each and every other religion was receiving fair representation? People who do this obviously have some kind of insecurity complex. The world is in a sorry state when lip service is being payed to these PC obsessed nutcases.

And another thing, how come issues like these are only being raised now? Why not in the past? Christmas trees have been solely present in public places for centuries. The airport should not have caved in to this lunatic's demands, he is deliberately trying to make life hard. Just to add one more point, if there was a menorah at the airport but no christmas tree, do you think the man would have complained then?

jorgelito

The problem is the rabbi (aka "whiney old man") threatened to sue. I think that changed the context of things. Otherwise, your solution is altogether too reasonable and practical.

Mojo_PeiPei

How am I, a Catholic/Christian supposed to acknowledge what isn't celebrated? What is so unreasonable about acknowledging Christmas, again A FEDERAL HOLIDAY, a holiday celebrated by 70+% of this country? Edit: Also it doesn't even come down to acknowledgment really. You don't celebrate Christmas? Great, no one forces you to. That's the brillance of this country, you have the right to free enterprise and free contract. Also if you are somehow trying to say to me that a christmas tree in a public place is forcing you too acknowledge anything, then all I can say to you is you are pathetic, weak minded, selfish, and worthy of my denegration.

People try and assert some bullshit about this being an issue of separation of church and state; it is not. To start Separation of Church and state is not the law of the land, it is a result of judicial activism in this country, this can be clearly noted by the fact that it is no where mentioned in the constitution of these here United States. Building off that all we have is the establishment clause which is held in the 1st amendment. I think anyone who thinks singing silent night at public elementary schools, or nativity scenes, or christmas trees as a violation of this establishment clause is both bigotted and retarded.

This country operated fine with these traditions for 200+ years, no ones rights were trampled, even though perhaps their feelings may or may not have been hurt because they couldn't play in the reindeer games, but to that I say grow a pair and get over yourself.

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xepherys

Argh, the PC patrol has come and swept away something else. Why does this kind of thing matter so damned much to people? If someone put a 500-fucking-foot tall menorah in the middle of Central Park, why should I be pissed about it? I refuse to say "Happy Holidays" to people. I'm not particularly religious, and I'm not particularly Christian, but my habit is to say "Merry Christmas". If you are offended by that... then fuck you! If a Jew comes up to me and says "Happy Chanukah" or "Shalom", I feel greeted and will return it with a "Merry Christmas" or "Peace Be With You".

Man this PC shit really pisses me off. I mean, I actually get vehemently angry when I hear shit like this. You know what? You don't want a giant Christmas Tree in your airport? Move to a country that's not primarily Christian. I wouldn't go to Israel and tell them to remove any Stars of David. I wouldn't go to China and yell at them for having a Buddha on the street. I wouldn't go to Baghdad and bitch about the crescent. In fact, it's not even just religious, it's cultural. I wouldn't go to Greece and bitch about the blue. I wouldn't go to Germany and tell them to stop drinking beer. It's just a part of Americana at this point, to celebrate Christmas. I know plenty of non-Christians that put up a tree and give gifts on the 25th of December.

Why is everyone so goddamned concerned with making everyone else happy. There's an old saying that goes something like, "You can make some of the people happy some of the time, but you can't make all the people happy all of the time". I have a new, 21st century saying to take it's place. It goes something like this, "If you don't like it, shut the fuck up and carry on!" Discuss!

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jorgelito

Well it appears the trees have been reinstated.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6171937.stm

Kudos to everyone for working it out, especially the commission.

Alls well that ends well...................????

Lady Sage

To each their own, I really didnt let it bother me. Those that know me in any aspect at all know I wasnt dissing MLK. I was dissing the Rabbi. *Shrug* Still if anyone wants a more in depth description, I will be glad to give it in private.

Where I work we simply go with Happy Holidays and winteresque decorations if any. This covers all of our bases as a celebration of season and not specific religion.

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Willravel

Dumb. "Christmas" trees predate Christianity by hundreds of years. All they had to do was put a david star on top of each tree for Judism and little dashikis for Kwanzaa. There are no Buddhist, Islamic, or Hindu religous holidays coinciding with the December holidays.

That rabbi is an idiot, and he should concentrate on teaching Judism instead of being outraged over stupid little things. Mr. Rabbi, you live in a country that is primarily Christian. Whether you like it or not, they will be represented more than Jews. Get used to it.

The_Jazz

[sigh]

OK, the Founding Fathers pretty obviously were against the establishment of any sort of official religion in this country. At the time they were most concerned with primacy of one branch of Protestantism over any other, but it rang true for Catholicism, Judaiety, etc. That's the whole point of the "establishment clause". There's very little debate about that, although the extents that it's been taken have been labeled by some (rightly or wrongly) as "judicial activism". You may not see any problem with forcing Hindu, Jewish or Anamist kids to sing "Silent Night", but I sure do.

By the way, separation of church and state is indeed the law of the land as has been proven over and over and over. Ask the Alabama Supreme Court how that particular fight is going.

The country operates just fine under these rules and has for 217 years. The only major change has been the expansion into the school systems starting about 50 years ago.

As a frequent traveler, I'd just as soon not have any distractions like decorations in my way as I get from point A to point B as quickly as possible. That said, let's all remember that airports are, as an absolute rule, not privately held companies. They are government buildings. Make no mistake - state or city governments own every single commercial airport in this country with the only exceptions being ones owned by the federal government (Reagan being the immediate example). It is consistently one of the major sources of income for most cities with hubs.

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dc_dux

The US Supreme Court ruled in 1989 that both Christmas trees (as opposed to nativity scenes) AND menorahs are sufficiently secular so as to not violate the establishment clause.

The rabbis was simply asking that a menorah be added. IMO, the whiny and narrow-minded are the ones who have verbally assaulted the rabbi.

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jorgelito

The rabbi still went about it the wrong way by threatening to sue. He WAS being whiny though. He made a mistake and now he has to deal with it. No biggies there.

Whatever, what's done is done and hopefully everyone learned from it.

mixedmedia

I agree with you. And furthermore, the rabbi never asked for the trees to be removed. Only for the inclusion of a menorah. Anyone who vehemently disagrees with his request is more than a little constipated on this issue. If the trees are no big deal, then why the hell do you care about the menorah?

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Infinite_Loser

I don't see how, since it's a Pagan tradition.

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Mojo_PeiPei

Yes because we know the Judiciary is infalliable... Dred Scott.

They should only be suited to be strict constructionist, they are stewards of the courts and the laws, thats why the people elect officials to make laws. Since judges aren't culpable to the people, I have serious qualms with them using words from Jefferson that are not legal, nor binding, nor in favor of this type of "separation of church and state" as dogmatic law of the land that is clearly pushing an agenda, this can easily be tracked by the explosion of these cases in the last 10 years.

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Infinite_Loser

You know what the real problem is? People don't understand that the concept of decorating a Christmas tree is, in fact, a Pagan tradition which some way or the other has been associated with Christianity.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/xmas_tree.htm

If they had put up a menorah then someone else would have undoubtedly claimed that they're religious beliefs were being left out or that they were offended by the showing of religious artifacts. Really. People can get angry over the most trivial of details. The way I see it, if you're offended the close your eyes, take a deep breath and move on. It's not the airport's duty to try to appease everyone.

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mixedmedia

Perhaps, but here in 21st century America those who decorate trees are celebrating Christmas and I will guarantee you that if asked, the vast majority of people would say Christmas if you asked them what holiday the decorated tree is associated with.

Besides, it hardly matters what religion the tree is associated with. The rabbi wanted inclusion. Why split hairs to deny him?

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World's King

Next year they can just erect a giant shrine to Wal-Mart...



Fuckin' People...

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jorgelito

Again, it was the way in which the rabbi went about it. Threatening to sue is a bit extreme to say the least.

In any case, this is all moot now as the matter had been resolved.

The_Jazz

"Should be" seem to me to be completely irrelevant to the arguement before us. We're talking about the way it is, not the way that you wish is would be.

And Infinite_Loser, I'll be that if you ask people what religion a Christmas tree is a symbol of, they'll almost unanimously say Christianity. There will be a few smart folks like here that know and remember its pagan beginnings, but in the 21st Century, I think it's safe to say that it's been completely co-opted by Christianity. Just like the word "gay" has changed meanings, so has a decorated indoor tree.

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Infinite_Loser

I dunno' about that.

Now-a-day's a Christmas tree has a largely non-secular meeting.

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Gilda

I'm not sure I understand the port's slippery slope argument. If they put up a menorah, other faiths and traditions might want in. So? Let them in. Include anybody who wants to display their symbol for this time of year. I'm sure the Christian majority wouldn't be offended. I certainly wouldn't be.

As for whether the tree is a Christmas or a Pagan symbol, why can't it be both?

The food was great, the tree plugged in, the meal had gone without a hitch
Till Timmy turned to Amber and said, "Is it true that you're a witch?"
His mom jumped up and said, "The pies are burning," and she hit the kitchen
And it was Jane who spoke, she said, "It's true, your cousin's not a Christian"
"But we love trees, we love the snow, the friends we have, the world we share
And you find magic from your God, and we find magic everywhere"

So the Christians and the Pagans sat together at the table
Finding faith and common ground the best that they were able
And just before the meal was served, hands were held and prayers were said
Sending hope for peace on earth to all their gods and goddesses

from "The Christians and the Pagans" by Dar Williams

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mixedmedia

What does the way the rabbi acted have to do with the origins of the christmas tree or the "war on christmas"? I am addressing posts by people who seem to think the trees themselves are the issue here.

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dlish

i may have come in a bit late for this, but heres my 2 cents worth anyways

in oz every christmas talkback radio shows get flooded with rednecks complaining that xmas trees and decorations havent been put up in shopping centres or theyve been put up late, and usually they target shopping centres where theres a large ethnic and muslim community. so they give the muslim community a bashing in the name of political correctness regardless of whther its true or not...usually not.

i live in one of the most ethnically diverse communities in sydney. i'm muslim, and being my liberal self, have noooooo problems with xmas whatsoever. neither does my conservative family! regardless of whther we celebrate xmas or not is another issue, but we are not offended by xmas at all, and i love going to the mall during xmas to see what the buzz is all about. the only thing i hate about xmas is finding a parking spot!

on the otehr hand, the rabbi could have been a covert tree hugger who just didnt want any more trees cut down. now thats a conspiracy!



for me

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Lady Sage

Traditionally we pagans like our Yule log. New times are among us however and most of us dont get around to burning one so most of us are happy with the edible Yule log.

I dont get bent out of shape, however, if my religious trimmings arent included in displays. That would make me a hypocrite since I do not put up a tree.

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The_Jazz

For some maybe, but the name of what we're talking about says it all - "Christmas tree". It's a purely Christian holiday, with some aspects of the holiday having been co-opted by other cultures. The ancient Romans would be proud.

My point is that enough of the meaning behind the icon still remains to make it a religious symbol to most. Symbols change meaning all the time - the swastika was a peace symbol for centuries before it was "borrowed" by the Nazi's. If you show a swastika to the same people that you show the Christmas tree to, the first reaction is going to be to a symbol of hate, not one of peace. There will be a few that recognize its past, but primarily people will associate it with Nazis and the Holocaust, which is certainly not what it originally meant.

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MSD

I don't give a shit what decorations go up as long as they're not in my way and my tax dollars don't pay for it (White House lawn, anyone?)

Telluride

Probably because it wasn't a racial slur. And maybe the person who made the comment wasn't standing on a stage shouting it to/at the crowd.

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genuinegirly

It's good to see that the trees made it back. I'd like to see what kind of cost went in to removing and re-installing the displays. I would like to see the bill end up on the desk of whomever made the final decision to take them down.

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xepherys

I don't mind tax dollars going into holiday displays for any holiday. In a country where we preach equality of religion, it's sad that the PC crowd makes that so difficult much of the time. Don't tax dollars pay for the giant tree in NYC every year? Besides, Christmas trees are less a religious issue these days than they are a cultural symbol. Is it wrong that most Christian holidays are federal days off while many other religions are not? But nobody seems to complain about it. It seems to me that people like to pick and choose...

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Cynthetiq

I do not think that any monies come from NYC government coffers for the Rockefeller Center tree. If I recall correctly it is paid for by the owners of Rockefeller Center, just as Macy's pays for the Thanksgiving Day Parade, and the 4th of July Fireworks Spectacular. I am not sure as to who pays for the additional police force, but more than likely a portion is paid for by the sponsor as MTV pays for additional police to be around exitable teens on the street at TRL superstar shows.

If I'm not mistake as well the NY Eve celebration in Times Square is paid for largely by private dollars since the Times Square Alliance and the Times Square Business Improvement District help put on many productions that happen in the Times Square area. Money is generated by all businesses during any of these events so the BID and Alliances of many locations in Manhattan help put these kinds of things together using private funding and sometimes tax incentives, but no direct payouts from the city to my knowledge.

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