Personal electric company? Info? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

warrrreagl · 06-10-2003, 10:56 AM

My wife and I are getting ready to build our final home on some land she owns way back in the country. We're not going to go Kazinski, or anything like that, but I was curious about electric service, since we're going to be so far back. I've got to have my stereo running off of SOMETHING!

I remember seeing something years ago that if you built your own electric power company for your own home, then any local power companies would have to buy back (from you) any excess power you generated. I don't remember if it was solar, or wind, or water-based power, or what.

This may be an option for us (since we have dozens of creeks running through the land), but I don't know where to find any more info about this.

Who amongst you knows of such a thing?

rockogre · 06-10-2003, 11:15 AM

I work for an Electric Utility. The law says that if you are connected to their line that they would have to buy power from you at their AVOIDED cost. This is the cost that they would have generated the power to you at. NOT what they would have charged you. There is, believe me, a BIG difference.

There is also the matter of getting a distribution line to your site. In my area it can cost a few thousand dollars a mile just to get a line to your location. You get to foot the bill.

Wind power requires a pretty big mill to get much return, plus they usually never mention the battery bank and rectifiers you will require for wind generation.

If there is a distribution line near you there may be some way to sell power back and make some profit but you better do some serious research first.

You are welcome to PM me if you want and I will try to look up the specific information on selling power to your utility.

denim · 06-10-2003, 11:49 AM

I also work for an electric utility (more of a meta-utility, actually). I don't know much, but I'd be interested in this discussion.

BentNotTwisted · 06-10-2003, 12:00 PM

Something I recommend you look into is a fuel cell power generating unit. Plug Power is just one of the startup companies that are producing these units. They are expensive to purchase. ($5K to $7K) The upside is they are MUCH more efficient than gasoline generators. Just do a search on residential fuel cells and you will find plenty of information.
If you are going to be living 'off the grid' you may want to consider energy efficient appliances. There are refrigerators which use a fraction of the electricity of your standard Kenmore side by side, which will have a major impact on your energy bill. You can find out about these appliances at any store that specializes in solar power.

rockogre · 06-10-2003, 12:03 PM

From the Department of energy

Selling Power to a Utility
The Public Utility Regulatory Policies Act (PURPA) of 1978 requires electric utilities to purchase power from independent power producers if certain conditions are met. You will need to contact your local utility and/or public utility commission to determine what these technical and operating requirements are, and the price that the utility will pay you for the electricity you generate. You may also need a license from FERC. The utility will require that you insure the system. The interconnect requirements and insurance premiums may cost more than what you earn from selling the power. An alternative to selling power is "net metering or billing," where your system offsets the amount of power you purchase from a utility. Many states in the USA have net metering provisions, however, you will still have to negotiate with the utility concerning their interconnection requirements. (See EREC's information brief "Connecting a Small-Scale Renewable Energy System to an Electric Transmission System."

Some helpful links

http://www.eere.energy.gov/consumeri...riefs/ab2.html

and

http://search.nrel.gov/query.html?qp...=selling+power

warrrreagl · 06-10-2003, 12:29 PM

Man, I'm swimming in happiness at all these great responses. Thanks so far to everybody.

Mango · 06-10-2003, 12:55 PM

I work for an electrical engineer that works for a couple utilities and whomever else hires us. It is rarely worth building your own hydro system unless you are really far (10 miles) from the closest hydro pole. You will have to aquire a water lisense to use the water on the creek. This alone can be a huge hurdle. I know a few people who have small solar setups for thier full time residences but the are expensive to install and maintain. I have seen small micro hydro setups that basically use a pump with the water running through it backwards, the pump drive shaft is attached to an alternator or in one case an old VW generator out of a bug. The AC out of the alternator was rectified and used to charge a pile of 1.5v batteries. The panel had a load shedding system to prioritize the loads so that if too much stuff was turned on the system would automatically kill power to less important things. When there was excess power and the batteries were all charged it was dumped to a resistor bank and became heat. One guy dumped excess power to his hot tub

apetaster · 06-10-2003, 04:59 PM

FWIW. There's an article in the current issue of Fine Homebuilding that touches upon photovoltaic power for homes, cost analysis and utilities' obligations to buy back. Many libraries get the magazine.

Daval · 06-11-2003, 04:51 AM

I've heard that the best way to power yourself is to use a variety of methods. Ie. Solar Still for your hot water and heating and any excess to contribute to electricity, and a moderate windmill to supply your electronics and lights.

Keep in mind though that even with all these you will not be able to run a computer or high end electronics - I don't think the supply will be steady enough. It will however give you lights, fridge, stove, etc. Because you can buy special low power versions.

eribrav · 06-11-2003, 06:07 AM

This is an idea I had been thinking about in the past.

When I last looked Plug Power was heading towards initial introduction of residential fuel cells (this was about 2 years ago). They are hoping to commercialize them with the help of GE. They look like they have spectacular potential but I'm not sure they're really ready to up and run yet. I haven't looked but you might want to check Plug Power's website.

Are you in an area where solar might make sense?

denim · 06-11-2003, 06:30 AM

Didn't I hear something about GE turning them down?

rockogre · 06-11-2003, 06:40 AM

I forgot that we use a couple fuel cells for communication equipment in desolate areas. So far they have been trouble free.

Here is a link for residential fuel cell information.

http://www.utcfuelcells.com/residential/overview.shtml

warrrreagl · 06-11-2003, 10:54 AM

rock, I really appreciate the help. This is terrific. I'll post your picture from Tilted Exhibition at my new home so my new dog will recognize you as a friend.

rockogre · 06-11-2003, 10:58 AM

Just glad I'm of some use to someone, you're certainly welcome.

I like your planning on this. I wanted to do some of the same things but just didn't have the cash at the time.

I deal in power and the transmission of that power eight hours a day. It doesn't matter what the media tells you, electricity will not get cheaper no matter what. When they deregulated our industry we gained several thousand players that all want to make a buck, prices can only go up for commercial power.

It is possible to play the market with your own use IF you have some sort of secondary power supply. I really wish you luck with your plans.

And thanks for taking care of the dog.

06-10-2003, 10:56 AM	#1 (permalink)
warrrreagl pinche vato Location: backwater, Third World, land of cotton	Personal electric company? Info? My wife and I are getting ready to build our final home on some land she owns way back in the country. We're not going to go Kazinski, or anything like that, but I was curious about electric service, since we're going to be so far back. I've got to have my stereo running off of SOMETHING! I remember seeing something years ago that if you built your own electric power company for your own home, then any local power companies would have to buy back (from you) any excess power you generated. I don't remember if it was solar, or wind, or water-based power, or what. This may be an option for us (since we have dozens of creeks running through the land), but I don't know where to find any more info about this. Who amongst you knows of such a thing? __________________ Living is easy with eyes closed.

06-10-2003, 11:15 AM	#2 (permalink)
rockogre I aim to misbehave! Location: SW Oklahoma	I work for an Electric Utility. The law says that if you are connected to their line that they would have to buy power from you at their AVOIDED cost. This is the cost that they would have generated the power to you at. NOT what they would have charged you. There is, believe me, a BIG difference. There is also the matter of getting a distribution line to your site. In my area it can cost a few thousand dollars a mile just to get a line to your location. You get to foot the bill. Wind power requires a pretty big mill to get much return, plus they usually never mention the battery bank and rectifiers you will require for wind generation. If there is a distribution line near you there may be some way to sell power back and make some profit but you better do some serious research first. You are welcome to PM me if you want and I will try to look up the specific information on selling power to your utility. __________________ Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American G. I. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom

06-10-2003, 12:00 PM	#4 (permalink)
BentNotTwisted Optimistic Skeptic Location: Midway between a Beehive and Centennial	Something I recommend you look into is a fuel cell power generating unit. Plug Power is just one of the startup companies that are producing these units. They are expensive to purchase. ($5K to $7K) The upside is they are MUCH more efficient than gasoline generators. Just do a search on residential fuel cells and you will find plenty of information. If you are going to be living 'off the grid' you may want to consider energy efficient appliances. There are refrigerators which use a fraction of the electricity of your standard Kenmore side by side, which will have a major impact on your energy bill. You can find out about these appliances at any store that specializes in solar power. __________________ IS THAT IT ???!!! Do you even know what 'it' is? When the last man dies for just words that he said... We Shall Be Free

06-10-2003, 12:03 PM	#5 (permalink)
rockogre I aim to misbehave! Location: SW Oklahoma	From the Department of energy Selling Power to a Utility The Public Utility Regulatory Policies Act (PURPA) of 1978 requires electric utilities to purchase power from independent power producers if certain conditions are met. You will need to contact your local utility and/or public utility commission to determine what these technical and operating requirements are, and the price that the utility will pay you for the electricity you generate. You may also need a license from FERC. The utility will require that you insure the system. The interconnect requirements and insurance premiums may cost more than what you earn from selling the power. An alternative to selling power is "net metering or billing," where your system offsets the amount of power you purchase from a utility. Many states in the USA have net metering provisions, however, you will still have to negotiate with the utility concerning their interconnection requirements. (See EREC's information brief "Connecting a Small-Scale Renewable Energy System to an Electric Transmission System." Some helpful links http://www.eere.energy.gov/consumeri...riefs/ab2.html and http://search.nrel.gov/query.html?qp...=selling+power __________________ Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American G. I. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom

06-10-2003, 12:29 PM	#6 (permalink)
warrrreagl pinche vato Location: backwater, Third World, land of cotton	Man, I'm swimming in happiness at all these great responses. Thanks so far to everybody. __________________ Living is easy with eyes closed.

06-10-2003, 11:49 AM	#3 (permalink)
denim Banned Location: Massachusetts, USA	I also work for an electric utility (more of a meta-utility, actually). I don't know much, but I'd be interested in this discussion.

06-10-2003, 12:55 PM	#7 (permalink)
Mango Banned	I work for an electrical engineer that works for a couple utilities and whomever else hires us. It is rarely worth building your own hydro system unless you are really far (10 miles) from the closest hydro pole. You will have to aquire a water lisense to use the water on the creek. This alone can be a huge hurdle. I know a few people who have small solar setups for thier full time residences but the are expensive to install and maintain. I have seen small micro hydro setups that basically use a pump with the water running through it backwards, the pump drive shaft is attached to an alternator or in one case an old VW generator out of a bug. The AC out of the alternator was rectified and used to charge a pile of 1.5v batteries. The panel had a load shedding system to prioritize the loads so that if too much stuff was turned on the system would automatically kill power to less important things. When there was excess power and the batteries were all charged it was dumped to a resistor bank and became heat. One guy dumped excess power to his hot tub

06-10-2003, 04:59 PM	#8 (permalink)
apetaster Insane Location: P.R. Mass.	FWIW. There's an article in the current issue of Fine Homebuilding that touches upon photovoltaic power for homes, cost analysis and utilities' obligations to buy back. Many libraries get the magazine.

06-11-2003, 04:51 AM	#9 (permalink)
Daval Junkie Location: The True North Strong and Free!	I've heard that the best way to power yourself is to use a variety of methods. Ie. Solar Still for your hot water and heating and any excess to contribute to electricity, and a moderate windmill to supply your electronics and lights. Keep in mind though that even with all these you will not be able to run a computer or high end electronics - I don't think the supply will be steady enough. It will however give you lights, fridge, stove, etc. Because you can buy special low power versions. __________________ "It is impossible to obtain a conviction for sodomy from an English jury. Half of them don't believe that it can physically be done, and the other half are doing it." Winston Churchill

06-11-2003, 06:07 AM	#10 (permalink)
eribrav Junkie Location: upstate NY	This is an idea I had been thinking about in the past. When I last looked Plug Power was heading towards initial introduction of residential fuel cells (this was about 2 years ago). They are hoping to commercialize them with the help of GE. They look like they have spectacular potential but I'm not sure they're really ready to up and run yet. I haven't looked but you might want to check Plug Power's website. Are you in an area where solar might make sense?

06-11-2003, 06:30 AM	#11 (permalink)
denim Banned Location: Massachusetts, USA	Didn't I hear something about GE turning them down?

06-11-2003, 06:40 AM	#12 (permalink)
rockogre I aim to misbehave! Location: SW Oklahoma	I forgot that we use a couple fuel cells for communication equipment in desolate areas. So far they have been trouble free. Here is a link for residential fuel cell information. http://www.utcfuelcells.com/residential/overview.shtml __________________ Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American G. I. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom

06-11-2003, 10:54 AM	#13 (permalink)
warrrreagl pinche vato Location: backwater, Third World, land of cotton	rock, I really appreciate the help. This is terrific. I'll post your picture from Tilted Exhibition at my new home so my new dog will recognize you as a friend. __________________ Living is easy with eyes closed.

06-11-2003, 10:58 AM	#14 (permalink)
rockogre I aim to misbehave! Location: SW Oklahoma	Just glad I'm of some use to someone, you're certainly welcome. I like your planning on this. I wanted to do some of the same things but just didn't have the cash at the time. I deal in power and the transmission of that power eight hours a day. It doesn't matter what the media tells you, electricity will not get cheaper no matter what. When they deregulated our industry we gained several thousand players that all want to make a buck, prices can only go up for commercial power. It is possible to play the market with your own use IF you have some sort of secondary power supply. I really wish you luck with your plans. And thanks for taking care of the dog. __________________ Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American G. I. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom Last edited by rockogre; 06-11-2003 at 11:02 AM..