11-25-2006, 09:17 PM | #41 (permalink) | |
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11-25-2006, 09:37 PM | #42 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
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11-26-2006, 12:04 AM | #43 (permalink) | |||||
Banned
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I also have to assume, since i'm sure you'd never do this knowingly, that you weren't aware that saying "news flash" to people is considered rudely condescending. So... now you know. Quote:
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11-26-2006, 03:31 PM | #44 (permalink) | |
Easy Rider
Location: Moscow on the Ohio
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Perhaps the criminal element is used to being under scrutiny and maybe even expects a raid once in a while. My life is rather boring and I am engaged in no criminal activity so if some people came crashing into my house yelling "police", I would not immediately believe them. The last thing on my mind would be that the police find it necessary to break in. It is ironic that the people most likely to doubt that the intruders are really the police are law abiding citizens who have nothing to hide. I guess from the attackers' point of view it makes little difference when they come crashing in since a gun is a gun. Edit: I will have to modify my statement above about never engaging in criminal activity. After reading the reference to the Sal Culosi case where he was accidently killed by a SWAT team member while being served a warrant for gambling activity, I realize that several times in the past I have bet on Ohio State football games. Also I am guilty of sometimes buying a square on tavern Super Bowl pools. Last edited by flstf; 11-27-2006 at 07:02 AM.. Reason: Added last paragraph. |
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11-26-2006, 07:33 PM | #45 (permalink) | |
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I'd still like to know what method you would use to serve search warrants. (And please don't respond by again telling me that you don't think that these warrants should be issued in the first place... I'm talking about a valid, court ordered warrant... how else should it be served?) |
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11-26-2006, 09:14 PM | #46 (permalink) | |||
Born-Again New Guy
Location: Unfound.
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----- Clearly, I'm paraphrasing and exaggerating... but not as much as I should be. Your view on these subjects seems to stem from a general distrust of authority figures, especially ones that have the ability to enforce. I don't know for sure because I'm not in your head, but your posts point in that direction. As was said before, fhq isn't a member of a SWAT team and every officer is different so it isn't fair to lump them all into one category. However, he is giving field information: Knowledge gained by experience. Your facts, to which I'm loosely refering to them based on the amount of bias and spin, are largely, if not entirely, third-party accounts by desk-workers who're neither police nor wronged victims themselves. |
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11-27-2006, 06:29 AM | #47 (permalink) | ||
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
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11-27-2006, 08:12 AM | #48 (permalink) | |
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This will be my last post in this topic, as the debate is growing old. SWAT is no more apt to shoot a subject than a beat cop is. The difference between SWAT and a beat cop is the training, and the type of weapon that they carry. Regardless if eight beat cops serve a search warrant, or if a SWAT team serves a warrant, if someone opens fire, whether they be 8 or 80 years old, the police will return fire. I carry my gun when I respond to domestics, car accidents, missing people, and lost puppies. Regardless of where I am or what I am doing while in uniform, if someone opens fire at me, I will return fire with the intent to kill them. I understand the value of human life probably better than most of my peers. The reason that I joined our Hostage Negotiation Team many years back is because I value being able to resolve a situation without putting lives at risk needlessly. I also understand that every time that I put on the uniform, there is a chance that it will be the last time I put on the uniform. The cemeteries are filled with police who underestimated the threat they they are up against every day... police that let their guard down. You want the police to wait until there is "solid intelligence" that the people are armed before using a tactical team to serve a warrant? So what happens when we get into a situation where we didn't have solid intelligence, and we run into a heavily armed suspect? What do we do then... yell "do over" and slowly back out the door? The case of Sal Culosi, while tragic, is certainly not the norm. Using your own argument, just because Fairfax County uses their SWAT team to serve all warrants, it does not mean that it is national policy. Here's a suggestion... if you want to "Monday Morning Quarterback" me, the police, or our policies, strap on a vest, lace up your boots, kiss your wife goodbye while wondering if it will be the last time, and stand the line right along side me. Do a year or so in the communities that I walk in, and if you still have your same views and opinions, then we'll debate some more. If you're not willing, be thankful that some of us are. *****EDIT***** Regarding the case of the 92 year old woman in Georgia that shot three officers when they served their warrant, I just found this quote: "Dreher said the three drug officers "were well-trained" and had "served hundreds of warrants" over the years. Even though the officers were not required to knock before entering the house, they did, Dreher said." They were not SWAT officers, but narcotics officers. They knocked, even though they were not required to. You can read the full article here: http://www.officer.com/article/artic...&siteSection=1 Last edited by fhqwhgads; 11-27-2006 at 08:47 AM.. |
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11-27-2006, 11:34 AM | #49 (permalink) |
All important elusive independent swing voter...
Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia
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Hmmm...it certainly does seem that police these days have an itchy trigger finger, especially on unarmed people. Here you go DK...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061126/...ce_shooting_46 |
11-27-2006, 11:38 AM | #50 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
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11-27-2006, 12:16 PM | #51 (permalink) | |
All important elusive independent swing voter...
Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia
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I think this point is the critical part of all these cases. Police clearly identifying themselves or not and the effect it has. I'm trying to imagine how I would react of a bunch of people started shooting without saying they were cops. I would probably crap my pants. More developments: http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?i...C-RSSFeeds0312 http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/11/27/nyc...ion=cnn_latest |
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11-27-2006, 12:35 PM | #52 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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I also found this little bit of new info for the atlanta issue.....enlightening.
http://www.ajc.com/news/content/metr...7metshoot.html Quote:
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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
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11-27-2006, 04:39 PM | #53 (permalink) |
comfortably numb...
Super Moderator
Location: upstate
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"Here's a suggestion... if you want to "Monday Morning Quarterback" me, the police, or our policies, strap on a vest, lace up your boots, kiss your wife goodbye while wondering if it will be the last time, and stand the line right along side me. Do a year or so in the communities that I walk in, and if you still have your same views and opinions, then we'll debate some more. If you're not willing, be thankful that some of us are.
*****EDIT***** Regarding the case of the 92 year old woman in Georgia that shot three officers when they served their warrant, I just found this quote: "Dreher said the three drug officers "were well-trained" and had "served hundreds of warrants" over the years. Even though the officers were not required to knock before entering the house, they did, Dreher said."" _______________________________________________________________________ brings it all into perspective for me...
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"We were wrong, terribly wrong. (We) should not have tried to fight a guerrilla war with conventional military tactics against a foe willing to absorb enormous casualties...in a country lacking the fundamental political stability necessary to conduct effective military and pacification operations. It could not be done and it was not done." - Robert S. McNamara ----------------------------------------- "We will take our napalm and flame throwers out of the land that scarcely knows the use of matches... We will leave you your small joys and smaller troubles." - Eugene McCarthy in "Vietnam Message" ----------------------------------------- never wrestle with a pig. you both get dirty; the pig likes it. |
11-28-2006, 06:04 AM | #54 (permalink) | |||
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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And now? http://www.heraldtribune.com/apps/pb...YT02/611280302 Quote:
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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." Last edited by dksuddeth; 11-29-2006 at 02:40 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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01-11-2007, 11:24 AM | #55 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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Well Well Well, anyone here think they should charge these cops with first degree murder yet?
Lies involved in no-knock warrant Quote:
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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
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01-12-2007, 01:25 PM | #56 (permalink) |
still, wondering.
Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge
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I trust and value the police in St. Paul. "To protect and serve" is a heckuva
slogan. The job must be one of the most challenging available, and i know I couldn't do it. Law enforcement may make mistakes, but they are our fellow human beings...ergo?
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01-13-2007, 10:02 AM | #57 (permalink) |
Insane
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What are the chances that the cops didn't yell "Police" as they were coming into the house? I find it pretty unlikely that they thought it was a home invasion robbery. Chances are if the officer hadn't fired, it could have been his corpse they were pinning medals on. Asking someone to stop and ask questions when confronted with a loaded gun in these circumstances is asking a lot when their life is on the line.
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01-13-2007, 11:31 AM | #58 (permalink) | |
still, wondering.
Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge
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BE JUST AND FEAR NOT |
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01-13-2007, 12:11 PM | #59 (permalink) | ||
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
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01-13-2007, 01:17 PM | #60 (permalink) | |
Psycho
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01-13-2007, 03:16 PM | #61 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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criminals, while not highly intelligent, are not stupid. They already know that there are places where people will not be armed and they know that most people will readily surrender upon hearing people yell police as they break in to peoples homes. I hear of at least one a week in the news pages I read. http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/fls/PressR...060203-04.html http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?se...gle&id=4860911 http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/c...?storyid=53943 http://myfloridalegal.com/newsrel.ns...2571790061BEE4 http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/police/...tysonsupd3.htm
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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." Last edited by dksuddeth; 01-13-2007 at 03:20 PM.. |
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01-13-2007, 04:25 PM | #62 (permalink) | |
Easy Rider
Location: Moscow on the Ohio
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01-14-2007, 06:18 PM | #63 (permalink) |
still, wondering.
Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge
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Sitting in my home late at night...sleeping, maybe dreaming...
Common thugs don't wear a lot of modern self-protection, do they? If you hear "police" you should throw the gun away.
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BE JUST AND FEAR NOT |
01-14-2007, 07:23 PM | #64 (permalink) |
Psycho
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Posting a few links that show that criminals have shouted Police or whatever as they broke into is far from proving your point. There are only a handful of cases in what has to be thousands of robberys. I can tell you not to go swimming in the ocean because of a few people dying from shark attacks, or don't go outside in thunderstorms because a few people died from lighting. The list goes on and on, really a few cases of this happening does not prove your point.
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01-15-2007, 06:03 AM | #65 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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The point was is that it happens and criminals know that people like you will let their guard down thinking they are cops. Once you're disarmed, then their fun begins. why would anyone willingly take that chance?
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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
01-15-2007, 01:07 PM | #66 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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In the case of US v Fincher, a federal jury of Hollis Wayne Fincher's peers found him guilty last week of owning illegal machine guns and a sawed-off shotgun. According to police, Fincher had two .308-caliber machine guns, homemade versions of the Browning model 1919. The other firearms were 9 mm STEN design submachine guns and a sawed-off shotgun - not registered as required by federal law. Fincher is a member of the Militia of Washington County, a private militia established in 1994 to “to defend the liberty of the citizens of the state of Arkansas, and these United States, through education, participation, and action.” Fincher maintains possession of the guns, which he does not deny, was "reasonably related to a well regulated militia," based on the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. Through the jury's wisdom, the citizens of Arkansas are safer with having these self-proclamined militias (ie vigiliantees) reigned in through the appropropriate application of the 2nd Amendment. Good thing, or every street gang in the country would be calling themselves "the Militia of (insert city name here). /end threadjack
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 01-15-2007 at 01:37 PM.. |
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01-15-2007, 02:54 PM | #67 (permalink) | |
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I swore that I'd stay out of this thread, but you picture actually made me laugh. Can I change the caption to "Quick, pull a gun... he might not be a cop!"? If someone is that close to you, with an automatic rifle trained at your face, and you try to grab for a gun, YOU WILL GET SHOT... regardless if the guy is a cop or a criminal. |
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01-15-2007, 05:18 PM | #68 (permalink) | ||||||
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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." Last edited by dksuddeth; 01-15-2007 at 05:27 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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01-15-2007, 06:19 PM | #70 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
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01-15-2007, 06:47 PM | #71 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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Looking at their website, it appears their real goal is simply to challenge federal gun laws. Fine, one of their members challenged and lost.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 01-15-2007 at 07:11 PM.. |
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01-15-2007, 09:03 PM | #72 (permalink) | ||
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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That the National Guard, paid by the federal government, occupying property leased to the federal government, using weapons owned by the federal government, punishing trespassers under federal law, is a state agency. The NG is NOT the militia of the 2nd Amendment and 'well-regulated' never meant 'government ruled' until 1903, when the courts started their acts of judicial tyranny and activism in rewriting the constitution. -....."The right [to bear arms] is general. It may be supposed from the phraseology of this provision that the right to keep and bear arms was only guaranteed to the militia; but this would be an interpretation not warranted by the intent. The militia, as has been explained elsewhere, consists of those persons who, under the laws, are liable to the performance of military duty, and are officered and enrolled for service when called upon....If the right were limited to those enrolled, the purpose of the guarantee might be defeated altogether by the action or the neglect to act of the government it was meant to hold in check. The meaning of the provision undoubtedly is, that the people, from whom the militia must be taken, shall have the right to keep and bear arms, and they need NO PERMISSION or REGULATION of law for the purpose. But this enables the government to have a well regulated militia; for to bear arms implies something more than mere keeping; it implies the learning to handle and use them in a way that makes those who keep them ready for their efficient use; in other words, it implies the right to meet for voluntary discipline in arms, observing in so doing the laws of public order.".....- Thomas M. Cooley, General Principles of Constitutional Law, Third Edition [1898].(Mr. Cooley was Dean of the University of Michigan's Law School, Michigan Supreme Court justice, and a nationally recognized scholar). Quote:
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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." Last edited by dksuddeth; 01-15-2007 at 09:07 PM.. |
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01-16-2007, 02:43 AM | #74 (permalink) | |
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Ah well, we'll call again tomorrow... |
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01-16-2007, 06:26 AM | #75 (permalink) | |
will always be an Alyson Hanniganite
Location: In the dust of the archives
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"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony "Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt. |
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01-24-2007, 04:08 AM | #76 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Right here
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I wasn't shot, but I was thrown on the ground, hogtied, and asked how it felt to have an assault weapon at my temple. I told them to fuck off, but they just picked me up, one officer by the cuff chains and another by my ankle chains, and carried me to the front of the house and tossed me in the middle of the living room. the second time it happened to me, I stayed seated on the couch watching my sitcoms while two officers calmly pointed their rifles at my head. both times I was seething pissed, but neither time was I stupid enough to move for my guns or rifles. the only time a gang invaded my friend's house, they didn't yell they were cops, they shouted a couple of our names and for everyone else to stay the fuck out of the way. couldn't be in two places at once, I still have my spleen, my friend...not so lucky. so fuck an internet nutjob coming on here and spouting illogical nonsense ONCE AGAIN and particularly for saying anyone who's ACTUALLY been in either of the home 'invasions' you're spouting bullshit about is a slave to the government, not intelligent, or isn't tough enough to deal with the realities of life and violence. fuck that noise...and any bullshit that falls out of your mouth from this point forward in this thread. I usually try to engage you, sometimes I end up blowing you off, but this time you went to far with your overgeneralizations.
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"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann "You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman |
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01-24-2007, 06:23 AM | #77 (permalink) | |||||
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Location: bedford, tx
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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
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01-24-2007, 06:28 AM | #78 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Right here
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yeah, 15 years ago I had trouble selecting friends...now, not so much.
I'm done reading your bullshit from the looks of this thread, a lot of other respected members are as well. you're the first person I've put on ignore in all my years on tfp.
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"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann "You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman |
01-24-2007, 08:44 AM | #79 (permalink) |
will always be an Alyson Hanniganite
Location: In the dust of the archives
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And...with that...I'm closing the door on what has been an awfully fun discussion.
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"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony "Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt. |
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baltimore, civilians, decorated, killing |
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