Never mind

Let me clean up my analogy, I’d rather have 100 people tasered than one cop stabbed, he most likely had no knife, or any weapon but his fists, but getting close to anyone that just yelled 'get your hands off me' is dangerous.

I read on a few other boards that his friends say he is confrontational, and his myspace page (prior to the incident) promoted civil disobedience and fighting authority for no reason.

Dilbert, can you link it for us? I think it is very interesting, that may undermine his case a bit.

I’m looking; here are screen shots of his facebook page
http://forums.ratedesi.com/showpost....4&postcount=12

Favorite quote: "that hurts stop it"
And he is talking about feeling like Dr. jeckle and Mr. Hyde, having a midlife crisis.


I can’t seem to find the comment, I think it was a comment on digg, but I can no longer find it. Either way, it was a passing remark, no way of verification that they actually knew him.

jorgelito:

i am confused about "his case"----what is it that is being evaluated?
at this point, what you have are ex post facto narratives each of which functions of justify the actions of the party producing the narrative.
not all these narratives are equally present in the thread.
further, i am not entirely sure of how interesting each narrative would be, precisely because they each would smooth out the problem by imposing a particular ex-post logic on it---the problem arose in the ambiguity of real-time, in what appears to be choices made at each point of what came to be a chain of such choices.
the one that bothers me is that taken by the cops--but in a justificatory narrative, the criteria that played into making the choice to treat the student as they did would be fundamentally altered.

it'd maybe be interesting to have more of the actual narratives from all sides here....and maybe links to other video materials...if folk want to treat this as a kind of ad hoc courtroom. but what i have seen from the video stuff that i have looked at is that the cameras were switched on well after the point where the situation took a decisive turn had already happened, and so i dont really know if they would help. and the narratives are inevitably going to be mutually exclusive. so i would expect undecidablity.

in the end, i am not sure but what most of the debate in this thread actually turns on different folk's aesthetic reaction to the taser footage itself--how they responded to what the cops were doing from what they could see--and how this response resonated with wider aesthetic and/or political attitudes (prior to committments) that were then routed through political positions. explaining this would probably be a routing of empathy--which party you chose to sympathise with in the footage, who you chose to humanize and what projections you were able to structure around that.

it is obvious how the lines have played out here. for myself, i could not imagine a situation that would justify the use of force like that, and so empathized with the voice of the student. you are closer to the situation and project through anxieties particular to the campus mediated by the experiences of your friends, who may or may not share those anxieties. other folk clearly empathized with the campus police, and developed positions based on that.

and i would expect that adding more information would result mostly in a repeat of the same process.

it is all very curious, this tangle that can arise when you start to slow down the process of making judgments about video footage and--by extension (with problems) situations partially represented in it.


btw: dilbert--thanks for the link: it is interesting.
totally inconclusive...but interesting.
what is with that messageboard, tho?
jesus...

That's a very good summation Roach. At this point, we will just have to wait and see how events develop.

The case I am referring to is the student's lawsuit.

has anyone heard news stories about what is being done with regards to the cops that tazered him?

the forum was the comments on Digg.com i dont remember which one it was in, tehre are several ones about the incedent, one has over 1000 comments, i cant find it.

You know, I'm getting less and less sympathetic for this kid as time goes by.

Tasers were still not the only answer available.

Cops hired to work in a University still should know how to deal with petty rebellious behavior.

But this kid is hard to support or believe.

Civil disobedience is a good thing when used for a reason. This kid has truly trashed the methodologies of the great MLK jr. I find that in and of itself offensive.

Still the cops could have done better.

It's a conundrum.

I'm with you, Xera. This kid definitely seems like a douchebag, but the cops chose the wrong way to deal with the situation.

I don't understand this line of thought:

1. You want the kid to leave
2. he goes limp
3. taser him

What were they expecting the effect of tasering him to be? I usually think tasering is done to subdue someone.... but he was subdued: he just went limp. Tasering him would never (I would think) get someone to stand up and start walking, would it? Just drag the asshole out at that point. There were 5 cops, it shouldn't have been too difficult.

I thought 3 was profit...

But seriously, 2.5 is the question, what made the police decide tasering was the best option. Did they perceive him as a threat, or did they just get the new model of taser in the mail. I think it could have been justified; however, 5 I’m not to sure about. However, I think we are in agreement that he was a douche and was asking for trouble.

If the student plays his cards right, "profit" could very well be the last step. ;)

Have you even been _reading_ the thread? Try any of roachboy's posts before yours.

Even assuming that this analogy is perfect, don't you think tasering him once might have sufficed? Subduing him was no longer the issue once he was limp on the ground, which is where the next several taser hits were administered. Given the extent of what happened, I'm boggled that anyone can defend the police here.

Oh God, I hope not. This is quickly becoming the big joke on campus. I went to a party last night where one of the hosts was making an announcement. She said: "Listen up or I'll taser you" at which point everyone started laughing and some kids started pulling out their ids and screaming "here's your patriot act". I'm just waiting for the "Got taser?" t-shirts now. Lots of students are doing impersonations of the student, "screaming like a little girl" whenever something is not going their way: EX: at the end of the party, as the guests were leaving, one kid "went limp" and did a friggin' hilarious impersonation while other kids started "zapping" him with their cell phones saying, "get up, get up".

I dunno, maybe this is how kids are dealing with the "trauma" of it all, like how some kids laugh at funerals or upon hearing news of a person's death.

Well, an idiot student screaming like a little girl, and a bunch of cops who don't know how to do their job. What's there not to laugh at? :) Look, in the end, no one was seriously hurt, and hopefully mocking the absurdity of all this will help people (students and cops) to act more maturely in future similar situations.

Yes, I have been and yes, I've read them.

The cops showed up, grabbed his arm and proceeded to escort him out of the library when he fell to the ground in protest, hence why he was initially tasered. He was told to stand up, he refused (All the while screaming "Fuck you!") and was subsequently tasered again. He was told to stand up again, he refused and was tasered yet again. Would you have rathered the cops dragged him out of the library kicking and screaming? If he wouldn't have fallen to the groun initially, he wouldn't have been tasered initially. If he would have stood up instead of remaining on the ground hurling obscenities at the cops, he wouldn't have been tasered any subsequent times.

By my counts, the student broke three different rules.

1.) Failure to show ID,
2.) Tresspassing and
3.) Failure to comply with the cops.

That's why he was tasered and continued to be tasered.

And this is to the people jumping on the cops for their actions: "Everyone's a genius after-the-fact."

I'm not even bothering to contest you on whether or not he broke rules, or acted like an asshole, or needed to be removed, or whatever.

You said he needed to be subdued.
None of what you just mentioned has anything to do with subduing him.
Forcing him to comply with an order to stand is not "subduing" him, by any accurate definition.

Tase 'em when they're up, tase 'em when they're down - tase 'em when they're up, tase 'em all around...

So you're basically saying that they were tasing him on his toes, so to speak? I don't know - I'm kind of liking this precendent now that I think about it. Might start keeping one of these things in my suitcase. People getting off the elevator too slow? bzzz...., move along fatass...don't have all day. The drivethrough? Crosswalks at intersections around the local uni campus?....Do you have to retract the cables, or are they replaceable?

So, is there any evidence to show this kid went to the library to provoke this situation, or is the accusation that he essentially turned into a douche after this started...from what I can see, he actually sounds like a lot of college kids I know / have known. I guess I just haven't seen the same evidence that many of you have allowing you to get into his mindset.

Are you serious? You are actually suggesting that civilians get involved in a police control situation? All that would have accomplished is ANOTHER person being tazed, or WORSE.

At no point durring the watching of the video did ANY of the officers respond in an angry way. They spoke calmly, and with control.

Your information is a little off. He was leaving AFTER he had been asked several times by library officials, and when the police went to escort him out to verify ID, he wanted to THEN just leave. It is Federal policy on ANY university campus to Identify the potential student. He evidently refused to provide this information, and when an officer grabbed his arm when he was THEN walking away, he jerked his arm from the grasp of the officer. Ask ANY officer, if a police officer has grabbed your arm, and you have jerked away, this is considered RESISTING ARREST, and is punishable by law. REGARDLESS of the situation. If the student had just followed direction, and given the officers his information, they could have EASILY identified him as a student, and no further action taken.

His problem stemmed from the fact that in VIOLATION OF POSTED UNIVERSITY POLICY, he was unable to PROVE that he was a student, and then REFUSED to comply with direction.

Again, the students are RESPONSABLE for providing PROOF, knowing a password and id name is not sufficient proof of who he is as far as I am concerned. I know my brother's password and login from his school, So I could just as easily walk in and log in to a computer at the library there. Does that mean I am a student with an ID TO SHOW?...NO.

He was asked politely by the campus police to leave. Once he refused, it became a violation of school policy. If you pay attention to the video, he WAS handcuffed, and they attempted to get him to leave on his own tow feet. He REFUSED, and continued to RESIST ARREST when asked to get up and walk away. He sure had enough power in his body to scream at the police and curse them...Sorry, after being tasered myself in training courses you can EASILY be able to stand within seconds of the taser control releasing you. that is why tasers have set limits, and are able to be used multiple times, because they are ineffective after the charge is depleted. If you also look at history of arrests and detaining, there are TONS of lawsuits out there from people who sue police for picking them up and escorting them out while cuffed, and causing them a sprained wrist. any way you go about it, ANY PERSON who is crazy enough to RESIST AREEST must be ready to face the consequences.

OK, so because he FINALLY AGREED to walk out, the police shouldn't attemt to detain him for proof of ID? Or should we let someone who can't prove he has a right to be there just walk right out and wander around a COLLEGE CAMPUS?

AGAIN, he was NOT tasered for forgetting his ID card, he was tasered for not comlying with direction by campus personell and police....

As I had said before, when an officer grabs your arm, even IF he shouldn't, and you jerk away, it is AUTOMATICLY RESISTING ARREST... PERIOD!

According to the lawyer of the student, the student HIMSELF told the lawyer he lied down on the floor and REFUSED to move.

Look at the video again, they DID cuff him, and he remained limp and refusing to comply even AFTER he was cuffed.

These are my personal opinions, and my statements are based on personal knowledge and experiences in life, as well as my own personal beliefs.

What scares me the most is that THESE people are our future America....Makes me want to buy that Island off the coast of Costa Rica again....

But do you really think that tasering is the right way to get a limp person to get up and leave? That's what I don't get. Seriously, if you've got a person laying on the ground that isn't following the order of "GET UP," tasering him just seems like something you'd do because you're pissed off that he's not listening to you. It doesn't help the situation at all.

Who knows what this kid was thinking. He was obvioiusly scared (I'm not sympathizing here, just saying he was). He obviously felt theartened. He was obviously not in the right mental state to do the right thing. Now, if I was him at that point, I could very well see myself thinking that these cops are gonna shock me if I try to get up, because then they might think I'm making a "sudden move" and I'll just get tasered again.

Really, how can it not be agreed that just dragging this kid out would have been the right thing to do, and tasering him was overkill?


He's not suggesting that the group of students should have gotten involved, he's just surprised they didn't. And I agree with him. The crowd was angered by the officers' actions. Tasering the kid repeatedly provoked that. Another big huge reason why they shouldn't have done it.

Just a quick thought: Is a taser like a cattle prod? I mean aren't cattle prods used to get cattle to move along? If so, maybe a taser can be used in the same manner, that is to "move a person along", get him to comply.

Deltona:Those same posted rules state that the consequence of refusal is denial of access, not tazering. Nowhere did I see where tazering as a listed consequence.

Infinite Loser: The cops are trained, or supposed to be trained, in exactly how to handle situations they are likely to encounter. I can't believe that noone thought before hand that protesting, stupid, noncompliant college students would be expected. I just don't buy that one.

it's a library.
there is something really really sad about this happening in a library.
i dunno, i just can't get by that.

If a political figure was speaking on campus or if there was an actual protest, then yes, the police would expect "protesting, stupid, noncompliant college students". But certainly not for a simple ID check. "Protesting" an ID check is pretty stupid and asinine at best.

I agree with you Roach. I am a big fan of libraries, one of the great American institutions. But lately, libraries are no longer quiet safe havens. At least in LA. The libraries here are infested with homeless people who harrass patrons, and gangs too (yes gangs believe it or not), there to use the computers or just "chill". I no longer hang out at the library anymore as I find the environment to be quite hostile. I just order my books online and pick them up when they're ready. The less time spent at the library, the better. The libraries down the street has security. The last time I was at Powell, a fight broke out among some students. Might have been over a chair.

This guy was not "tazered" because he did not show ID. Whatever the initial contact with the police was is inconsequential. Whether he was stopped for speeding, whether he matched the description of a bank robber, whether or not he had been accused of beating his wife DOES NOT MATTER. He was not "tazered" because he did not show ID.

I have a BA degree in Criminology/Criminal Justice. I attended a 26 week police academy. I have been working, as a patrol officer, for over 9 years now. During those 9 years, I have been shot at, stabbed twice, beaten, almost hit by a car, kicked, punched, bitten, spit on, and slapped. I take my job seriously, and I don't consider the tools I carry to be "toys". I understand that life and death decisions often have to be made in an instant, and debated for years. All that being said:

Even I don't claim to try to tell these officers what they "should have done".

I was not there. I did not see what happened before or after this video was shot. I do not assume that what the student says is the 100% truth, and I do not assume that the official department statement is gospel. We can play "what if he did this" and "why didn't they do that" all day long, and still not come up with an answer. All we know is what we would have LIKED to have seen done, and what we think we would have done in that situation.

Would I love to live in a world where the police were not needed? Hell yes. I would gladly turn in my badge and pick up a hammer and saw. Would I like to live in a world where I didn't need to carry all these "toys" (as they have been referred to) in order to protect my life or yours? Hell yes.

This conversation has grown tired. Can well all just go back to criticizing the President now?

:confused:

Why would you advocate not criticizing the police and then turn around and ask people to criticize the President? Do you not see the irony there? Nobody here has ever been a President, so by your logic nobody, not even past presidents, should be able to criticize the current CinC.

Yeah... I kinda intended for that comment to have a pinch of irony to it... but I think that you are generalizing a bit about my comment.

I'm not saying that we can't be critical about those that we give power to... I'm not saying that we shouldn't criticize the decisions of others... what I'm saying is that I have extensive law enforcement training, experience, and knowledge, but I also realize that I don't have the benefit of the full story, so I will not Monday Morning Quarterback the event, and I suggest that others not be so quick to judge either. A kinda "walk a mile in my HiTec Magnums", if you will.

Let's see...

As Jorgelito said earlier in this thread, the library has a clear sign which says that all students must present their ID in order to use the library after hours. When asked to present his ID by the library staff, he refused. Strike one. He was asked to leave yet he refused. Strike two. Instead of being escorted out by the police he thought it best to fall to the ground in protest. Strike three. That's three different rules he broke.

If you're on private property and you're asked to leave because you can't show the proper identification that means now; Not when you feel like leaving. Walk onto private property, refuse to show any ID when asked and refuse to leave when you're told. Tell me what happens to you.

I would expect to be forcibly removed. This could very well entail dragging/carrying me out.

If I became violent, then, yes, instruments such as billy clubs, pepper spray, and (gasp) tasers can be used. Until that point, though, only non-violent acts should be taken by the cops.

Also, the point of view that says "the kid could have pulled a knife!! taser him, just in case" doesn't make sense to me. How does tasering him help prevent him from pulling a knife? Cuff him, restrain him, drag him out. Why didn't the cops do that?

You know, the one bit of information that we are missing from this discussion is "taser policy". I don't know much about tasers but what are the rules regarding their use? If the cops were indeed following policy then it's the policy that needs examination. If the cops violated policy then their training, suspensions what-have-yous would then come into play.

Is taser use considered a lesser form of force as opposed to dragging a suspect away? Is taser use the acceptable use of "forcibly removed" according to departmental policy?

jorgelito,

heres the taser policy for the university of california police department:

http://dailybruin.com/documents/2006...aserpolicy.pdf

fyi, the student is filing a lawsuit charging, brutal excessive force. Heres info on that:

http://dailybruin.com/news/articles.asp?id=39026

Thanks Miss Mango, I will read it tonight. That should help put things more into perspective.

setup like a bowling pin step 3. PROFIT

We really can't see much from the video, who knows if he was resisting or not? Like most school papers, the story was hardly objective. There simply isn't enough evidence here for any of us to determine whether the cops' actions were appropriate or not.

Let me get this straight: the student was asked to provide an ID which you are required to have in the library, did not produce one and refused to leave, and is now complaining that he got bitchtazered by the cops? Are you kidding?

Colleges around the nation are prone for rape and criminal activity, especially at night hours, just like someone on this thread mentioned. If ANYONE, especially someone who refuses to show an ID resists school policy, they deserve to be tazered just to honor those who have been raped or hurt due to a lack of rules like these.

It doesn't matter if you're a student at a university. If you break the rules (having an ID) and then resist leaving, you're asking for trouble, even if the cops did overreact (which is not even the important part of the story). In a world where rape and drug dealing is rampant on college campuses, you don't simply resist authority to "fight the man" as this teenybopper did. You say you don't have an ID and get your ass out of there before you get in trouble. This guy didn't. He didn't show an ID and refused to leave, hence the police coming. You guys honestly expect the police to let someone who may not even be a student to walk passed them after resisting the school rules on a computer? Yeah right. Him going apeshit after they restrained him didn't help either. He got himself into that mess by acting like a Cool Anarchist that he parades on his MySpace and now he can suffer the consequences.

if you think the cops overreacting is not the important part of the story, you're missing the whole point. I agree, there is nothing wrong with the police coming to the library in order to make the kid identify himself or leave. I don't think many people are going to argue with that. The use of weapons, a taser, a weapon that has killed people and will kill more people, on the kid when he was obviously not a threat to the police is what the whole discussion is about. If they didn't bring out the weapons this would probably not even be a story, just a one-line note in the Daily Bruin's police blotter.

his threat is unknown, he was noncompliant, he collapsed and refused to move, he could have been armed, and waiting for some one to move in and get close.

Sorry, but thats ridiculous.. violent force should not be used in response to an unknown threat, the police deal with unknown threats all the time without using weapons, no reason why this should be different. ANYONE out there could be armed at any time, if the police start using weapons whenever they feel like it what you have is no longer a free society.

Hence why they tazered him instead of shooting him a few times as he lay on the ground. They removed all threat from him without lasting harm to his person. And here's a kicker, n0nsensical - you don't live in a free society. Freedom of speech and belief does not equate to a freedom of action.

Sorry I think you mistook something here. We have freedom of action and that is a tenent to the US Constitution. What we do not have here is freedom from consequence, which people tend to think that that it's is absovled or removed by invoking, "But because of...."