Elphaba

Keith Olbermann has interviewed the student's attorney (surprise). There are a number of new pieces of information that may or may not change your opinion of what happened.


Olbermann

Infinite_Loser

We shouldn't award people for being dumbasses. That's my opinion.

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analog

I'd just like to say that I laughed my ass off when the attorney said he lives in New York, but works in LA, and that he "commutes".

First of all, a police force that is "very busy" should be more diligent, not more physical. The biggest string of rapes and murders doesn't give them automatic rights to excessive uses of force in dealing with individuals. It gives them a greater need and responsibility to be more observant, more cautious, and more prepared. None of those qualities factor into tasing an unarmed, passive resistor.

You can't disregard the notion of racial profiling just because 3 of the police officers are black, Asian, and hispanic... when the suspect is middle-eastern. People of all races in America have taken to the irrational fear and suspicion of people who look even remotely middle-eastern, not just the white folks.

I'm not suggesting it was racially motivated, but if they picked him out of all the students around him, and he did in fact ask that they check a few more people so he wouldn't feel singled out, then I have to wonder if he was, in fact, intentionally profiled.

Dilbert1234567

the lawyer was ill informed, a taser is not dangerous to a pacemaker at all:
http://www.taser.com/self_defense/faqs.htm#3

and that's with the barbs, not with the leads.

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pig

A student does not have to carry his/her id at all times. What kind of crap is that? What if you're out for a jog, or you step out to get some crap out of your car?

Bottom line - the notion that a student who wasn't cooperative with campus police when they asked him to leave a library deserves to be tasered multiple times is just asinine.

jorgelito: are you saying that because you've had some violent crime around campus, that means that police should have carte blanche to put down non-cooperative behavior as they see fit?

I pulled this out of Cyn's list - the rest was irrelevant to this situation, as far as I can see:
I don't think I've seen anyone say that campus police can't ask for ID - is the repercussions that are being disputed. This shit was just abusive, plain and simple. This kid is going to settle out of court, and any affect on UCLA is more than likely going to be negative from a PR standpoint.

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Xera

The eyewitnesses say he was leaving, the cops, who stand to face some pretty bad consequences, say he was refusing. I tend to believe the people who have nothing to gain over those whose view of a situation will keep them from getting fired and facing civil action, particularly when there is reason to wonder about who to trust.

Had there been one middle-eastern cop in that bunch then racial profiling might not be an issue, but anytime you talk about a middle eastern person these days you have to wonder, did he really do something, or was he profiled?

I hear him, on the video saying that he's leaving, I hear him say, "just take your hands off of me" I see no reason this could not have been resolved peacefully by the cops just removing their hands and letting him leave while they followed. If they were really concerned they could even have kept the tazers at the ready, but did they HAVE to have their hands on him? Is there some kind of policy that says that if the police are called they must be in physical contact with the student?

I do wonder, did the campus authorities check anyone else's id?

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pig

As roach pointed out - this whole discussion is a huge case of a false dilemna. The idea that either the cops had to essentially do nothing....OR they just had to taser the shit out of this guy - one or the other - is just bullshit. These situations are handled, and have been handled for a long time on campuses, with way more diplomacy. I really can't believe people are essentially saying that because this kid may not moved fast enough - or SHOCK!!! - he may have blatantly gone against the university cops demands / security guards demands - that he should have been electrically shocked multiple times...all because he forgot his ID? That's just fucked up.

edit: stupid crappy browser. sorry for putting you in the sandwich.

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Infinite_Loser

Once again, being tasered is absolutely no big deal-- Certainly not what he made it out to be. First of all, the cops have every right to forcibly remove someone from private property if they feel they have a legitimate reason to do so. I believe this'll be the third (Or is it the fourth?) time I've asked this question, but what would you have had the cops do given the situation? All I see are accusations but, as yet, no one has produced an alternative resolution which could have been used. Second of all, some people fail to realize that this entire situation could have been avoided if the student would have left when asked instead of being a deuchebag about it. Sorry, but people shouldn't be rewarded for idiocy.

The thing is that the cops had no way of knowing if the student was a danger or not. His failure to reveal his identity coupled with the fact that he was extremely insubordinate led to him being eventually tasered. Yeah. He got what was coming to him, plain and simple.

When driving to and from work I sometimes get stopped by the cops from time to time for no real reason. What do you think would happen to me if I refused to hand over any ID because I feel as if I'm being racially profiled or if I failed to comply with what the cop says (Up to a reasonable point, of course)? So why is it any different for this student?

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jorgelito

Ah, I did not know that, I thought there were 3 cops.

The race issue came up in school so I may have gotten our discussions crossed (people were claiming racism even though the kid is white (but Persian/Iranian name).

Xera

Piglet: not the funnest sandwich ever, but hey, not a bad one either .

Infinite Loser:

That would be an alternative resolution.

Sorry, that would have meant the cops couldn't play with their toys until the kid actually DID something. What a shame that would have been.

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jorgelito

First, the kid does not "look middle eastern". They did check IDs of people in the library. They even announced they were going to do so so he had warning. The charges of profiling and racism are ridiculous in this case, especially at UCLA where the majority student population is non-white. Profiling simply wouldn't make sense, nor would it be efficient. Besides, previous suspects in various crimes on campus have been white, Asian and black (if you're gonna profile, profile those groups but it's still inefficient). If he had his ID, this wouldn't have happened. If he had cooperated in the first place (with the CSOs then the UCPD) this wouldn't have happened. Someone refusing to cooperate certainly warrants alarm or suspicion. We require school IDs on campus for a reason. One of the rapes occured when a non-student got into one of the dorms (which require IDs for entry - apparently the person in front of them held the door open).

Secondly, Analog, I understand your point of the physical force, but I am trying to establish a back drop of why there is so much concern with IDs etc. (not necessarily justifying force, just showing why security is tight). The library is a high traffic area and I've bumped into many "unsavory characters" lurking around. The library is the highest incident of theft location. Asking for and checking IDs is very reasonable.

Whether or not excessive force was used will be borne out of the investigation. Witness accounts at this time are contradictory. SOme say he was leaving, others say he was resisting. In any event, it is very unwise to be uncooperative with the authorities.

On another note, what do you guys think the UCPD should have done? The kid refused to cooperate remember. In the given scenarios, it was instigated by the kid. If he was on his way out, then he shouldn't have freaked out when they escorted him (this is pretty standard, security always escorts you out). If he wasn't complying, then what should they have done? Drag him?

Pig, no I am definitely not advocating for carte blanche for the cops but at the same time, I am not automatically condemning the cops either. Someone else said it; the truth is somewhere in between, we have to wait and see. I don't think anyone is really advocating for tasering per se, but rather more saying that the kid was in the wrong in the first place. It's not so much that he didn't have his ID (and it's pretty dumb not to carry your ID on campus as you need it to do just about anything - swipe in the cafeteria, library access, fitness center, bus rides etc). And then to make matters worse, he was very uncooperative and that's not cool at all. I don't really know if taser was excessive (not without the complete facts), but my first reaction is yeah, WTF? sounds crazy. But then, what should the UCPD have done then? I would have thought that they would have just carried him out (but I guess I can see how that would pose a threat by kicking and screaming etc.

*add* You know, I think there are 2-3 other videos out there from different angles, but so far, I couldn't see what was happening when he said "Don't touch me!" and started screaming profanities. But I am guessing that he must have made some sort of resistance or combative action to warrant any type of force. I would have assumed that the cops escorted him out but the altercation seemed to have began with the whole "Don't touch me!" screeaming profanities sequence.

Any TFPr's have police or security experience that can shed some light on procedure or the law in terms of defining assault or resistance etc? I thought that screaming profanities at a cop was considered assault maybe? (or something like that). In other words, there has to be a trigger for the tasering, it can't be just out of the blue. I think one of the cops mentioned that they tasered because they didn't want to use a baton.

*add* I just watched the video again. It sounds like after he started screaming "don't touch me!" the cops reply "stand up". I'm guessing he must have sat right down or something like that which means he wasn't leaving or complying anymore. The kid then shouts some profanities at the cops and in a calm voice delivers a monologue. All throughout, the kid does not cooperate at all. He claims he will leave but then just sits there and tells the cops to "fuck off" or "you motherfuckers". In the end, they had to drag him out (he still wasn't cooperating). Maybe they just should have done that in the first place.

Damn, I wish we had the other videos to see. My friends said it was a complete circus at the library. The campus is pretty divided now.

dksuddeth

That is from rule #3. What was 'reasonable cause' to ask for presentation of ID?

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jorgelito

It is after hours at the library. There are clear signs everywhere saying that after hours, the library is only accessible to students with ID. They even made an announcement before hand that the CSOs would begin to go around and check IDs.

ratbastid

I'll only say this: I've watched the video. There's a LOT you don't see in it. It's he-said-she-said about how the whole incident started, and if it wasn't for a very dramatic-looking piece of footage, it would be a non-story.

One thing it certain: the campus cops need training in diplomacy and conflict resolution. Even if it started the way they said, it didn't need to end the way it ended.

longbough

Maybe it's just my mood speaking tonight but I can't help but remember how many UC students (and I was once a UC student) seem to behave as if basic legal protocol shouldn't apply to them.

Since I wasn't there I can't comment on whether or not the use of force was excessive but the guy did not have his ID and did not leave voluntarily.

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Dilbert1234567

?????

the school regulations clearly state that you may be asked to ID yourself at any time.

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Kalibah

This is true at a lot of universities. I think its important to note that he didn't get tased for not having his ID as is sometimes insinuated. Rather he got tazed for not complying with the officers demands.

I was always told to comply with a law enforcement officer at all times. If you feel what they are asking is unlawful- then you appeal later.

If they "removed" him by force, is there any doubt in your mind he would have gone after them for injuries? Buises, etc. I seem to recall Michael Jacksons shoulder injury as the result of being put in handcuffs. If they so much as bruised him they would be dammed for not using the tools they are given designed to force compliance.

To be honest though I am a little unsure of the timeline. Correct me if im wrong but it goes like this.

He shows up- asked to show ID- refused crying racism.
He used computers to finish a paper.
As he was about to leave campus security shows up.
He says he is leaving.
They ask him to stop. He goes limp to protest and refuses to come with them.

Is that about right?
If so then their stopping him was totally justified. If he broke a university rule- ie failed to show ID- then the fact that he was leaving is moot- he broke a rule. From what I understand library staff asked him to show an ID and he refused - at that time he could have left without an alteraction (still breaking the rules however).

Its like trespassing- it doesnt matter if you will leave when the cops show up - when they get there - they are going to investigate.

pig

Yes, being tasered is "no biggie." I mean, that's why they use it to temporarily incapacitate non-compliant suspects, or to put them back in line (on the low-dose prong setting). Its like a cool wiff of Aqua Blue Velva, without all the annoying green color. I'm thinking of getting one for the home, for those times when I just don't have time for coffee. I don't know why all these people are acting like the cops "did something." They clearly did nothing, constituted of tasing the everloving shit out of this kid about five times. What other recourse could there have been? Hmmmm...I don't know. They could have let him leave, and simply remained to escort him. That would have been tough. Usually when a kid is dicking around in a situation like this (assuming that's what was happening) its because they want attention. They're busy rebelling against society in pretty useless fashions. This is a lot of what college is about. Challenge what you've been taught. Challenge authority. So this kind of attitude is frequently encouraged or tolerated at many schools, but that's a little bit non-sequitur. In any case, if this kid was lolly-gagging on the way out, the worst thing the cops could do is what they did. They just justified all the crap the kid did. They gave him what he wanted, to the tune of a few hundred thousand dollars before its all said and done...minimum.

Dilbert

Note that 1. the rules say you have to identify yourself, not that you have to carry identification. Same for the rules that Cyn pointed out. That can be interpretted as you have to actually answer the authorities if they ask you "who are you, what are you doing here?" It doesn't mean you have to have a UCSB barcode imprinted on your pecker at all times on campus.

To me, its not clear that this kid was actually doing anything "wrong," other than perhaps not going fast enough. I don't know that that's actually a requirement, incidentally. In the worst case that everything said about this no-good low-down non-compliant sumbitch is true, the way the cops handled this only made it worse.

jorgelito: if you're worried about the kid getting a bruised elbow from being escorted out, tasering him 5 times in front of a large crowd full of camera phones isn't really a "smart" thing to do.

Anyone have a link to the rules on campus that failure to comply with school rules and/or the directions of campus authorities in a timely manner results in tasering, with additional helpings if non-compliance continues? I bet this kid, nor his parents, were made aware of such a policy. The notion that somehow this treatment follows in sort of logical fashion from the "but he broke some rules" statement is unjustifiable to me.

Once again, this could have turned out very badly for a couple of campus policeman, who apparently don't have much training in conflict resolution and diplomacy.

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USMC6531

While I didn't read all of the above comments I would like to put in a cops perspective....from what I heard on the video he was refusing to identify himself on a private campus where an ID was probably required to use the computers, then he refused to leave and when the police showed up to escort him out he begins flailing and resisting which is active aggression which MORE than constitutes the use of a tazer which is non-lethal even to those who have a medical condition. So this should be a warning to those ignorant college kids who have a problem with any sort of authority and think they can just do what they please when they please. The Officers were well within their rights to taze him for the safety of themselevs as well as those on campus.

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Xera

I get the idea Kalibah that your timeline is pretty much the way it happened, except now the cops are saying that he WASN'T leaving, but the witnesses are saying that he was.

The consequence of breaking the rule says that he will be asked to leave, not that he will be tazered. If the goal was to get him out of the library, this was not a necessary way to do it. It seems like anyone that thinks this was an acceptable response are basically saying, "the kid was an arsehole and deserved this."

The problem with that is that in this nation people are supposed to go before a jury and be found to be guilty of a crime, and then sentenced to a REASONABLE punishment BEFORE the punishment takes place. The police, other students, librarians, teachers, etc. are not supposed to be allowed to meet out punishments without due process.

If they were just trying to get the guy out, and he was already leaving, and his first real fit, not just inaction, but real honest fit, was when he demanded the cops not touch him, then the whole thing could have been avoided by the cops NOT TOUCHING HIM.

Again I ask, is there some policy I'm unaware of that says that the cops MUST have their hands physically on the guy? If not then the only reason these cops had for refusing to get their hands off of him was that they were the cops, he was the 'bad guy' and by George they were gonna make him do whatever they said, how they said, and by the means that they said.

From what I could see of the videos the kid was protesting the cops putting their hands on him, not the library rules. He was refusing to comply with the library rules, but not protesting them.

This reaction went against the goal. The goal was to get this kid out of the library, unless I missed something big somewhere? From what I read of the rules failure to comply could result in refusal to be allowed into the library. I don't recall tazering being one of the consequences mentioned.

Seems like if they let the guy leave and, once outside, the police had checked the kid out to verify his name and such, the library then could have followed its OWN POSTED REGULATIONS AND CONSEQUENCES and banned the guy from coming back in again, for failure to follow the rules.

This would have been appropriate and would have had the added benifit of following the regulations that were part of the school.

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USMC6531

The cops touching him was probably to gain compliance due to the fact that he wasen't moving till they were able to gain control of him. From the point, just like a little kid mad for not getting a new toy he went limp and refused STILL to leave....and as soon as he became a risk, the tazing became justified.....and just a heads up for pigglet as far as I know there are no "dose settings" on tazers, and the tazer can be used as many times as necessary to gain compliance. While the college students may have one story, that video actually showed the truth, the police asked him multiple times to stand up to leave in which he continually ignored the command and screamed and yelled trying to incite a riot among the students, and was presenting a safety concern.....

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pig

Hey, I was just reacting to the comments by dilbert above, who used to set up the tasers for his college - when he said you've prong tasing, which is the lite version, and full on cable in your ass heavy duty tasing. And if some assholes, cops or otherwise, were simulataneously tasering me, and saying "stand up, stand up...you're making us look bad...i wouldn't cooperate at that point either, unless it was make a lunge to deliver a mighty cockpunch to one of these guys. As has been pointed out, where exactly does it state that a student not complying with ID rules or library rules shall be tasered?

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dksuddeth

non-compliance is a 'risk' to officer safety? Is that anything like the washington state sheriff applying pepper spray in the eyes of protesters who'd linked their hands together inside PVC pipes? For officer safety?

we're quickly sliding down the slope to where if YOU, as a non-authority, don't do WHAT you're told, WHEN you're told, and HOW you're told to do it, you get zapped or maced. This attitude is insane.

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USMC6531

No but trying to incite a riot is officer safety, and non compliance and refusal to obey a command is always a safety risk.

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Dilbert1234567

The dangers of the non compliant:

The true non compliant is no real danger, the danger comes from the combative feigning as a non compliant. As the police move in to drag his limp body, he could lash out, with a fist, or a knife, injuring or killing a cop. as pigglet put it:
People like you are the reason they tasered him. Because cops are afraid of getting hurt for just asking some questions. Anyone try thinking this through from the cop’s point of view? You get a call, there’s some ass hat in the library that was asked for ID, refused and then refused to leave. You show up, and you see him walking towards the exit (or sitting at a desk). You need to talk with him, to find out if he’s just some student who forgot there ID, or some rapist / serial killer / douche bag who shouldn’t be there. You approach and place you hand on his shoulder to stop him and question him. Maybe you wanted to be quiet in a library so you don’t yell ‘we want to talk with you’. As soon as you touch him, he screams and goes limp. Why did he go limp, is he just an ass hat, or is he going for a weapon. You ask him to get up, he screams, instead of getting close and getting cockpunched or worse you give him a jolt, he screams even louder, a crowed begins to gather, and the situation is getting out of your hands, a riot could start placing you in serious jeopardy. Some other students are getting antsy, yelling at you the situation is going down hill you threaten them to make sure they don’t interfere; he needs to be removed to diffuse the situation. He still won’t get up and you don’t want to be cockpunched. Tasered again, and again until he complies or you can get enough guys on him to completely control him and drag him so he can’t cockpunch anyone.

He could have solved everything, by saying 'please don’t touch me, I am leaving right now, do you guys need to talk with me, or can I leave.

This is being made into a bigger issue then it is. There is police brutality, and it’s horrible, but this is not it. If you get combative with a cop, expect to get hurt. If you feel like you were wrongly treated by a cop, get there badge number, and file a report if the report did nothing, call your mayor, senator someone higher up. Eventually it will be taken care of, and if you were wronged, it will be straitened out.

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Zeraph

Ignorant assholes like this (quoted from youtube comments) are why cops have to act the way they do. They may have been able to handle it better but maybe not. It sounded a lot like a setup or deliberate provocation of the cops. And while the cops may have been able to handle it more gently that student got what he deserved, and the crowd should have been maced for pressing in.

I really wish I could send all these ignorant police haters to their own society, where they would promptly tear themselves apart.

roachboy

1. generally speaking, libraries that actually stick to the official policies regarding ids (in reality this is far more flexible than the paper rules make it appear to be) have some kind of gate at the entrance--to get in at all you need a university id.
you can pass through them if you have another form of id, but not if you dont.
usually, the desk folk give you a proxy id when you enter the library.
and there are generally time parameters to this--for example, the main library at penn gave non-penn folk considerably more trouble on the weekends and after 9 pm than at other times if they wanted access to the library.

i do not know the particulars about getting access to this library, but it seems to me that the whole situation--all of it--was tripped by the decision to let this student in without an id.
if what he showed at the entrance was adequate to gain entry, then what unfolded inside begins to look more like harrassment--arguably more like harrassment--that was triggered by the carding policies that govern computer lab usage.
but the fact is that in this case, the concern is not and was not security.
it was turnover management in the computer lab.
the security issue was resolved when this student got access.

the same student, under the same logic, could have been reading in the stacks and would have consitituted no "security" concern.

so the whole "security" argument seems to me to be moot.

1a. i have to say that the element of this whole farce that really bugs me is that is happened in a library.
i do not think that the private property arguments advanced in this thread over and over should simply apply to university libraries--they are repositories of information of a quality that far exceeds those of even very good public libraries. (for myself, i have been spoiled by these resources--their value really cannot be overstated)--and as repsitories of information, these private spaces have a necessary public function and the spaces a necessarily public dimension.
a library cannot and should not be a fortress.
they should not be about preventing public access to information.

to go further would be a digression in this context, because the fact of the matter is that the kid was a student.
period.


2. many urban campuses have border trouble like that jorgelito described as happening at ucla. this does not constitute a state of emergency and in no way justifies police actions in this particular case.

3. usmc's posts are interesting, but they also seem to me to demonstrate the case i was making earlier: once the cops found themselves faced with a situation that it seems to me their own approach generated, what happened followed in a more or less straight line. the problem was the approach itself.

4. i had read about the charges of racism that surround this whole thing. i was not sure what to make of them, and so left them to the side. i dont think the perception the student had is in any way altered by referencing the skin color of the cops involved. but that is as far as i feel like i can go with this.

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KellyC

Update:

http://www.ucpd.ucla.edu/ucpd/zippdf...2011-15-06.pdf

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dksuddeth

people crack me up. So many people think that when police abuse their powers, it's just a single incident, or that there are always a 'few bad apples', but let a regular citizen turn out to be a bad seed and EVERYBODY is an asshat police hater. what a joke.

Not that I put too much stock in department issued reports, I have to wonder why the police just didn't cuff him when he went limp, then lift his dumb ass up and walk him out? Could it be that they wanted to jack him up with a taser to 'force' him to comply to their orders?

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Dilbert1234567

roachboy, I don’t attend cal poly, but I do use the library every once in a while, I’ve never been asked for ID at the gate. And I’ve never been challenged inside, but I have seen it. They may not have the staff to constantly have some one at the front taking ID, it may be easier for them to have some one walking the inside watching for idiots, and asking for ID.

About the racism; I doubt there was any racism involved in the cops actions they were asked to remove him, they did not chose him, whether or not he was singled out from the guy checking ID remains to be seen, but i doubt it can be proven.


That’s why we have independent investigations, there are bad apples out there, and bad apples do spoil the bunch, but we have people with video cameras watching them, and if they do act inappropriately, they will be removed and punished.


Or because he could still be dangerous when he was limp; see my previous post. Or if you want to see how fast I can draw my knife and stab when I’m on the ground, come on over.

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jorgelito

There was no racism, the student is white.

When I was at Georgetown, the security was even more strict than at UCLA, same with the Library of Congress. Campus security is an issue. Just think, if this person had hurt someone at the library then people would be screaming why didn't anyone check id. Especially since someone got stabbed in front of the library a few weeks ago.

Piggy, the person was uncooperative and refused to comply with an officers orders. I wonder if he would have behaved the same way at an airport.

pig

I was referring to what happened after they repeatedly tasered him, and still sat there saying "stand up. stand up." taser. "stand up, stand up". taser. that doesn't exactly inspire the desire to cooperate - and were it I, I do believe I would be a little perturbed. Mildly pieved. In such situations, one does always make rational, coherent responses to things like being tasered. I fear, I might have acted in a physical manner in self defense, as I would have been in the process of being tasered.

Notably different than the approach appropriate from both sides before the situation got out of hand. Ergo, I'm not advocating or sympathizing with random cockpunch distribution as a response to interactions with law enforcement. I've dealt with tons of cops in my days, and have yet to pull out a solitary bagsmash, or any other physical issue. But then again, I've never been surrounded by five of them tasering the shit out of me. So I can kind of see how someone in that situation might have such a response. I mean I know it sounds crazy, but I think its plausible...you know, just maybe. And all this kid did is go limp!!!. No cockpunches. Just went limp!!! Crap, that's an extra two taserings for being a pussy.

Yes, once again - how could they possibly have handled this without the taser? See, I sort of expect college kids to be jackasses. Cops are supposed to be above such behavior...or don't be a damn cop. Its justifications like yours that make people think all cops are powerhungry labotomized assholes, and that's just not the case. Shitheads like this ruin the rep of good cops that do make intelligent choices when handling these types of situations. These guys felt threatened by the crowd, so obviously keep tasering the shit out of this kid...that'll calm them down. And then a bunch of people throw up their hands and say "Well shit, what else could possibly be done? The kid could have had a dirty bomb in his back pocket? He might have had a gremlin and a glass of water...it was almost midnight afterall? How do you know he wasn't the spawn of fucking Satan?" The fact is, he had shown no actual "violence" as far as I can see, only a failure to comply as fast as the cops would have liked. Inappropriate response to the situation.

edit I realize that he refused to cooperate, at least after they got on him as he was leaving (at least by many of the accounts of this thing). I don't know if he would have behaved like that in an airport, but he wasn't in an airport. I realize I'm being a smartass in a lot of responses, and I know you generally try to play it nice with everyone - so take my tone as a bit of personal style - but I stand behind my points. What I can't understand is that people are condoning the use of a taser device to compell cooperation from a college student who was in the library (or elsewhere on campus) without his ID. Yes, he might have been a rapist. Yes, he might have had a knife. Yes, he might have been Damien. But there was a pretty good chance he was a student working on a term paper in the library. So instead of a benefit of the doubt, the police get to taser his ass because it doesn't leave marks like a baton or a leather strap would, and he could have been almost anyone or anything!!!!.

To me, that just doesn't make sense.

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Dilbert1234567

5 times may have been excessive, we don't know everything that happened. My main point is that it may have been justified, and instead of going 'it looks excessive, everybody panic. Let’s sit back and let the system work. I hope they give all 5 desk jobs at the least for the next month until the investigation is done.

the kid was looking for a fight, he was looking to cause trouble, yes slapping cuffs on him would have solved the issue, but getting close to a suspect on the ground is dangerous, his arms where near his sides, not out stretched like suspects are usually ordered to do. Furthermore, I don’t think the cops wanted to take him out in hand cuffs, it looks bad for the person being lead out, they probably just wanted to talk with him and make sure he was not a threat, they may have even been able to verify his identity and let him stay, we will never know. Instead of just talking with the cops, he caused a scene and tried to incite others to join him. The cops were right to put a stop to it.

More technical notes, in the video you hear the taser a lot, but its not being used all that time. Listen to it, when the volume gets lower its being used, there was a few times when it was on for a few seconds but only used for half a second, when it is discharged into the open air, it crackles very loudly, when it is used on some one, it still crackles but not as loud, its muffled. The drive setting, through clothing is not that powerful, I had the drive setting directly on my skin, I have 2 tiny little scars from where the skin 'boiled', still, it was not painful and after it was off, I had complete control of my body, albeit with a huge serge of adrenalin.

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roachboy

1.
i sense hysteria in this.
again--the sad reality is that every urban university has boundary problems, every urban university has occaisonal violence because, to one extent or another, it seems that every urban university is something of a flashpoint in the ambient class war that characterizes much of the actual life of being-in-the-states that--like everything of any importance--unfolds beneath the venner provided by television. so again, i do not see anything particular about the immediate conditions that obtained at ucla, and certainly nothing that excuses anyone involved with this sorry situation.

2.
nor do i see anything beyond a kind of routine harrassment involved in ths cimputer lab that is at the center of this. harrassment in the sense that having a work-study student come by every hour and a half to check your id again is not about anything beyond reminding you that a discrete duration has elapsed and following on that to provide that work study with a time-index that can be used to nudge students off the terminals if others are waiting. THAT is the primary function of these carding routines. the security function is a sales function.
again, beyond the above, there IS NO meaningful function to this kind of carding.
the question of status is resolved by the fact that the student is logged on--which presupposes that he or she has a valid id and pin number.

3.
the question of racism is not a simple fuction of skin color--geez---in the states since 2001--and by extension since 1979 (with reference to iran) you have sustained mechanisms of exclusion/racism directed against persian and arab students who, from the simple-minded viewpoint informed by skin tone, would be categorized as white. i know many folk who fall into these categories who have had significant aspects of their lives impacted by these mechanisms, and the apparent fact that for folk who have not been subjected to them these mechanisms do not appear to exist says nothing about the mechanisms and everything about the viewpoint of the observer.

but (again) i do not feel like i can say more about this particular situation except to say that the kind of arguments being advanced by jorgelito against the notion of racism being a factor at one level or another seem to me to be beside the point.

but it gets tricky here, because once you shift away from general mechanisms into individual perceptions based one way or another on experiences shaped by them--who gets to determine what is and is not a legitimate occasion for activating such experience or using it to determine what action is or is not racist?
what kind of criteria can one bring to bear from the outside to make a coherent judgment about such situations?
does one necessarily have to accept every perception concerning every situation that is taken or described as involving racism?
if there are problems at that level, does it follow that one should simply invert the above and dismiss all such situations?
what role does skin color in the end play here?

it all seems terribly simple-minded to me to revert to skin color as if that was a determinate criterion--it seems to rest on the assumption that there is only one type of racism in america--which seems pollyanna to me in that americans are often virtuosii in this department. particularly in these sorry times, within which the outmoded notion of "nation" is being propped up with sacrificial narratives that turn entirely on racist assumptions.

but does all this mean that you are simply presented with apparently undecidable situations in every such case?

maybe one asnwer is that you need to know the details.
and i dont.
so there we are.

but that doesn't obviate the general questions/problems.

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DaElf

All I can think when I watch that video is "what a spoiled bitch" I'm not sure if that kid is spoiled but he sure acts like it. I know anyone that screams "don't touch me" like that is definetly a bitch. The police were'nt asking that idiot to do anything they should not have been. He was being stupid just laying there. If the cops had a reason for not just dragging him out then they were in the right tasering him. If they could have just dragged him out I think they should have. If it was me though I don't know if I could have held back from hurting that kid just the tone of his voice pisses me off.

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Coppertop

Now that is comedy. The only reason this even has a possibility of being "taken care of" is that it was (mostly) captured on film. But even that is not a guarantee - remember Rodney King?

That's an interesting way of going about it, then.

pig

I think that for purposes of online discussion, this situation is far more interesting in a general context. What actions are appropriate in such a situation? As roach, dilbert and others have pointed out, we don't have a lot of details here, and I expect that will be resolved at the campus level. Hopefully so - frankly, I don't think there's any way to sweep this one under the rug at this point. Lawsuits and cameraphone footage abound. I guess my position is that unless a person actually shows a propensity to violence in such a situation, that the use of a device such as a taser is an inappropriate response. I don't mean to put words in your mouth, dilbert, but I'm surmising from your statements thus far you would advocate a "better safe than sorry" approach, leaning to the personal safety of the law enforcement. I can understand this approach, and would agree with it to an extent. I'm just not seeing compelling reason for the lengths that were employed here.

I also think that roach brings up an interesting point: namely, to what extent is this situation a reflection of our social attitudes? How is it shaped by the specter of fear in the name of security that seems pandemic in our society? As far as the racism issue, what extend is the social mindset defined by fear of the "other," and does that have any play in this situation?

Hmmm...regardless, if you catch me without an ID somewhere dilbert, just give me a chance to get my shit together and break out before taserage ensures

In a tangential thought, this reminds me of when I used to play a lot of intramural soccer matches. We were always required to have ID to prove we were a student, and not an outside ringer. I can think of several times I forgot my ID, and I'd frequently go over to my bag to dig around for it. Its pretty routine for the players and refs (frequently you "know" each other, and sometimes its a real love/hate situation) giving each other huge amounts of shit during such situations, and during matches, and after...and in the bars the next night, and so forth. Would those guys have the need for such practices? I mean, it would be a whole lot easier for me to stash a weapon in my bag, and in fact I usually carry a knife to cut off the tape I use to hold up my shinguards/keep my socks up. I can't imagine it would go over too well for campus police to be using such tactics on a player who didn't leave the field quickly enough after being carded out, or who didn't bring an ID to the field. You're definately on school ground, and you definately are in a more dangerous environment...via pure adrenaline rush if nothing else.

Regardless, interesting situation. I felt a little sick watching the video.

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Dilbert1234567

I would definitely say better safe then sorry, I’d rather have some guy tasered then a cop stabbed, especially because a taser causes no real lasting results, they have an extremely low mortality and injury rate, there was more risk from dragging him out then having him tasered and walking out on his own.. That being said, the taser may not have been necessary. A lot of things are still not known. Was this on the first floor, or would the officers had to drag him down 5 flights of stairs, risking injury to both the officers and the guy? Was he going to stay limp, or start thrashing around.

And pigglet, the issue was not having ID, it was refusing to leave because he had no ID. if I go to a bar, and forget my ID, and I get carded, I’ll be asked to leave, or they may just call the cops, if I tell them to screw themselves and stay, I’m asking for trouble.

The issue of not having ID was security based, it was late, and there are predators out there, he could have been a stalker, or rapist watching for a target. All he had to do was leaving, or talk to the cops to show he was not a threat; he overreacted and caused a scene. It could have been handled better, but it was not over the line; its better then mace, and better then a club.

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Infinite_Loser

If I'm pulled over by the cops and not only refuse to show any ID but refuse to follow orders, what do you think is going to happen to me? Even if I pose no threat at all, my actions warrant suspicion on part of the cop and will most likely get me subdued in some fashion.

Rules aren't made to be broken. You don't have to agree with them, but you do have to follow them whether you like them or not. Even if he felt as if he was being unfairly profiled, he should have still complied with what the library staff and cops told him to and waited until after the fact to file a complaint. Also, the fact that he was in the process of leaving doesn't matter. He was told to produce some form of ID or leave the premises immediately. He did neither. Therefore he was tresspassing and subject to being removed forcefully as per the law.

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pig

But with the taser vs. stabbing - isn't that a false hypothetical? I mean, there's no evidence he had a knife. I don't see any violent behavior described that would make this that type of confrontation. I guess I don't understand where that supposition comes from - although I agree I'd rather have one person tased than one person stabbed, regardless of who the tasee and stabee would have been.

I guess this one of those places where the details will shake out. Some say he was leaving, some say he wasn't. If he wasn't leaving, why use something that incapacitates...doesn't that make it harder to leave? I didn't see evidence of a stand off in this stuff - but a situation where he didn't actually start to leave until the cops show up. I'd think that happens all the time. As someone mentioned, is there actually any evidence to this guy having mental problems or something? Something just isn't adding up - I'll give you that.

I kind of think that using the cuffs might have been better from a pr perspective...even if you put the taser on a setting equivalent to a calf massage, its going to look bad in front of a bunch of students in a crowd at a university. What is the reaction of the alumus / parents to all of this?

I can certainly understand the need for ID's - that seems to have been the impetus for this situation, and if there is any actual race/ethnicity based selection criteria, perhaps a cover for discrimination (not saying that happened, but it is interesting...were other students asked to leave as well? Was he the only person in the library without an ID?). Was the guy showing any other signs of interest? Were other patrons uncomfortable around him based on his behavior or whatnot, and this provided a screen to remove a disruption? There's just a lot of things that we don't know. I've just been in and around schools for a long time, and I've never seen an ID policy or student removal from premises handled this way, nor have I heard about it - but that's anecdotal evidence. It'll shake out at this point, with all the coverage.

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