U.S. man sues Rumsfeld for Iraq jail time - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

xepherys · 11-16-2006, 02:18 PM

http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/ande...oper.360/blog/

Quote:

U.S. filmmaker describes Iraq imprisonment
Cyrus Kar, an Iranian-American, traveled to Iraq in the middle of the war to shoot a documentary about Cyrus the Great, the Persian conqueror. But the Los Angeles-based filmmaker came back from Iraq with a very different story than the one he set out to tell.

A few days after arriving in Iraq, Kar got into a taxicab that was later stopped at a checkpoint and searched. Iraqi police found three dozen washing machine timers. Those, as you know, are widely used in Iraq to trigger IEDs or roadside bombs. Kar says he didn't know the timers were in the cab and that he has no idea how they got there. He says the cab driver later admitted they were his.

Kar was arrested by Iraqi Security Forces and then handed over to U.S. troops. Even though Kar showed his U.S. passport and his Navy veteran's card to the U.S. troops, he was still taken to the notorious Abu Ghraib prison and then to Camp Cropper, where he was thrown into solitary confinement for nearly two months. (Camp Cropper, by the way, that's the same prison where Saddam Hussein is being held) Kar told me American troops referred to him as the "American Terrorist" and nearly suffocated him by putting a hood over his head. Also, he says he was left to bake for hours in a cage in 120 degree heat.

Here is Kar's question: Why did it take the U.S. government and the FBI 55 days (53 of them in solitary) to figure out Kar was innocent? He is now suing U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and other high-ranking military officials for violating his civil rights. It's the first case of its kind.

The Pentagon says Kar was "treated fairly and humanely in accord with the Geneva Convention." Kar begs to differ.

First of all, I hope he wins. Torture and "humane" treatment are bullshit. Truly humane treatment doesn't encompass this kind of behavior. Frankly, I'll be in a situation where I can say this with utmost authority soon, but even if torturing someone meant gaining intel that saved my life... I still don't believe in it. This guy wasn't even guilty. This guy was a US citizen. There was no due process. Why not?! Even in a foreign country, if a US entity is going to detain a US citizen, how is due process not invoked?

Argh! I really hate our current administration. I think Rumsfeld, Rove, Bush, et al should be shoved in solitary for 53 days so they can see why it's inhumane!

Willravel · 11-16-2006, 03:22 PM

Now that Rummy has retired from his clean and safe polsition, he leaves himself in a very actionable position. Nail the fucker.

Ch'i · 11-16-2006, 03:24 PM

I'm glad he's suing, and hope he wins.

feelgood · 11-16-2006, 03:43 PM

Can you really do that? I mean, say you're a software programmer working for Microsoft and you produced a crappy program for a company. That company knows it's your fault that it sucks and sues you for it, would that work? How about if you retire and the company sues you, would that work as well?

Willravel · 11-16-2006, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by feelgood

Can you really do that? I mean, say you're a software programmer working for Microsoft and you produced a crappy program for a company. That company knows it's your fault that it sucks and sues you for it, would that work? How about if you retire and the company sues you, would that work as well?

I think we all know that Donald Rumsfeld is responsible for defending the blatent breach of the Geneva Conventions. As Secretary of Defence, he is ultimately responsible for this.

xepherys · 11-17-2006, 09:26 AM

I don't think that a crappy program and inhumane detention are quite on the same level. Also, part of it is intent. If you are a crappy programmer, you'll get fired for writing crappy code. If you are an evil madman, you should be punished for those actions as well.

feelgood, I know that wasn't a troll, but it also wasn't really an apples to apples comparison.

The_Jazz · 11-17-2006, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

Now that Rummy has retired from his clean and safe polsition, he leaves himself in a very actionable position. Nail the fucker.

Will, how has his resignation opened him to litigation for acts done while he was in office? Either he's got sovereign immunity or not. The timing of the suit has nothing to do with his liability. If (and that's a big if) any offenses were committed during his tenure, he has the same immunity as every other Cabinet-level official for acts and decisions during his tenure.

I'm glad he's gone, although it opens the military to more scrutiny now for their actions, but this suit has about 0% of actually succeeding. US civilians detained by the US military while in combat situations don't exactly have the same rights as they do here.

xepherys · 11-17-2006, 01:12 PM

I'm curious where, in US Code, a US citizen can be held by US authority without due process or civil liberties assured by the Consitution or other bodies of US law if:

a) not withint the borders of the United States proper, and
b) not a member of the US Military.

feelgood · 11-17-2006, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xepherys

I don't think that a crappy program and inhumane detention are quite on the same level. Also, part of it is intent. If you are a crappy programmer, you'll get fired for writing crappy code. If you are an evil madman, you should be punished for those actions as well.

feelgood, I know that wasn't a troll, but it also wasn't really an apples to apples comparison.

Well, what if the company lost millions of dollars as a result of the crappy program?

xepherys · 11-17-2006, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by feelgood

Well, what if the company lost millions of dollars as a result of the crappy program?

It happens all the time. What about network outages because someone changed the wrong ACL on a router. What about phone outages becuase someone ran into a phone pole. The difference is that those inconveniences do not alienate someones rights. You don't have a RIGHT to good software, or a RIGHT to telephone service or a RIGHT the the internet. You do have a protected right to due process and lawful imprisonment as a US citizen being held by a US agency. I still don't see how these can compare. Human rights and civil rights are not the same as conveniences or business/profit.

dc_dux · 11-17-2006, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

Now that Rummy has retired from his clean and safe polsition, he leaves himself in a very actionable position. Nail the fucker.

While the case may have merit, the legal standing is shaky. Rumsfeld can still claim sovereign immunity for his actions while in office, particularly in a civil suit in a US court.

Willravel · 11-17-2006, 04:36 PM

Why is it that political figures are only answerable to the governments that protect them? Does it really have to take war crimes in the same scope of genocide in order for a world court to charge political and military personel with hainus crimes? In other words: are we answerable to anyone?

Seaver · 11-17-2006, 05:45 PM

Why the hell did he go to Iraq to film a documentary in the middle of the war? Something just doesn't sound right to me...

Willravel · 11-17-2006, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaver

Why the hell did he go to Iraq to film a documentary in the middle of the war? Something just doesn't sound right to me...

Why the hell did Dan Rather go to Vietnam when he KNEW there was a war going on? Was he nuts?

Xera · 11-17-2006, 06:03 PM

I thought that you could sue individual people in the government, but not the government itself, so long as you could prove that it was an inappropriate and unsanctioned action by the official that resulted in the violation of law/rights? I really haven't researched this one very much because I've never yet decided I wanted to sue anyone in the government.

Brewmaniac · 11-18-2006, 07:44 AM

Any U.S. citizen held by the military should be treated humanly no matter where he is. Even if he's an Iranian-American!

11-16-2006, 03:43 PM	#4 (permalink)
feelgood Free Mars! Location: I dunno, there's white people around me saying "eh" all the time	Can you really do that? I mean, say you're a software programmer working for Microsoft and you produced a crappy program for a company. That company knows it's your fault that it sucks and sues you for it, would that work? How about if you retire and the company sues you, would that work as well? __________________ Looking out the window, that's an act of war. Staring at my shoes, that's an act of war. Committing an act of war? Oh you better believe that's an act of war

11-17-2006, 09:26 AM	#6 (permalink)
xepherys <3 TFP Location: 17TLH2445607250	I don't think that a crappy program and inhumane detention are quite on the same level. Also, part of it is intent. If you are a crappy programmer, you'll get fired for writing crappy code. If you are an evil madman, you should be punished for those actions as well. feelgood, I know that wasn't a troll, but it also wasn't really an apples to apples comparison. __________________ The prospect of achieving a peace agreement with the extremist group of MILF is almost impossible... -- Emmanuel Pinol, Governor of Cotobato My Homepage

11-17-2006, 01:12 PM	#8 (permalink)
xepherys <3 TFP Location: 17TLH2445607250	I'm curious where, in US Code, a US citizen can be held by US authority without due process or civil liberties assured by the Consitution or other bodies of US law if: a) not withint the borders of the United States proper, and b) not a member of the US Military. __________________ The prospect of achieving a peace agreement with the extremist group of MILF is almost impossible... -- Emmanuel Pinol, Governor of Cotobato My Homepage

11-17-2006, 05:45 PM	#13 (permalink)
Seaver Junkie Location: Fort Worth, TX	Why the hell did he go to Iraq to film a documentary in the middle of the war? Something just doesn't sound right to me... __________________ "Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

11-17-2006, 06:03 PM	#15 (permalink)
Xera Crazy	I thought that you could sue individual people in the government, but not the government itself, so long as you could prove that it was an inappropriate and unsanctioned action by the official that resulted in the violation of law/rights? I really haven't researched this one very much because I've never yet decided I wanted to sue anyone in the government. __________________ ~~^~<@Xera @>~^~~ "A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing." ~Erno Philips

11-16-2006, 03:22 PM	#2 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Now that Rummy has retired from his clean and safe polsition, he leaves himself in a very actionable position. Nail the fucker.

11-16-2006, 03:24 PM	#3 (permalink)
Ch'i Artist of Life	I'm glad he's suing, and hope he wins.

11-17-2006, 04:36 PM	#12 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Why is it that political figures are only answerable to the governments that protect them? Does it really have to take war crimes in the same scope of genocide in order for a world court to charge political and military personel with hainus crimes? In other words: are we answerable to anyone?

11-18-2006, 07:44 AM	#16 (permalink)
Brewmaniac Searching for the perfect brew!	Any U.S. citizen held by the military should be treated humanly no matter where he is. Even if he's an Iranian-American! __________________ "That's a joke... I say, that's a joke, son"