highthief

I'm blown away by this one. The military allows virtually any other faith to be displayed on a soldier's tombstone, and indeed, are ok with the Wiccan faith to be noted on a soldier's dogtags, but the poor bastards can't have it on their headstone?

This one leaves me scratching my head:


http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2006Nov...oldier,00.html


Widows Sue Over Wicca Symbol, Headstones
Monday, November 13, 2006

By SCOTT BAUER, Associated Press Writer

MADISON, Wis. — The widows of two Wiccan combat veterans sued the government Monday, saying the military has dragged its feet on allowing the religion's symbols on headstones.

The Department of Veterans Affairs allows military families to choose any of 38 authorized headstone images. The list includes commonly recognized symbols for Christianity, Buddhism, Islam and Judaism, as well as those for smaller religions such as Sufism Reoriented, Eckiankar and the Japanese faith Seicho-No-Ie.

The Wiccan pentacle, a five-pointed star surrounded by a circle, is not on the list, an omission the widows say is unconstitutional.

Wiccans worship the Earth and believe they must give to the community. Some consider themselves"white,"or good, witches, pagans or neo-pagans. Approximately 1,800 active-duty service members identify themselves as Wiccans, according to 2005 Defense Department statistics.

The lawsuit was filed by four plaintiffs: Roberta Stewart, whose husband, Nevada National Guard Sgt. Patrick Stewart, was killed in combat in Afghanistan last year; Karen DePolito, whose husband, Jerome Birnbaum, is a Korean War veteran who died last year; Circle Sanctuary, a Wisconsin-based Wiccan church; and Isis Invicta Military Mission, a California-based Wiccan and pagan congregation serving military personnel.

It claims that the VA has made"excuse after excuse"for more than nine years for not approving the symbol and that by doing so, it has trampled on the plaintiffs'constitutional rights of freedom of speech, religion and due process.

Circle Sanctuary and Stewart began calling in 1997 for the VA to allow the symbol's use.

Americans United for Separation of Church and State, a Washington, D.C.-based group representing the plaintiffs in court, is seeking an order compelling the VA to make a decision.

"After asking the VA on a number of occasions to stop its unfair treatment of Wiccans in the military, we have no alternative but to seek justice in the courts,"said the Rev. Barry Lynn, the group's executive director.

The lawsuit was filed in U.S. District Court in Madison and the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit in Washington.

In memos and letters cited by the lawsuit, Lindee L. Lenox, director of memorial programs for the veterans agency, said the government was reviewing the process for evaluating and approving new emblems and would not accept new applications until the review was complete.

The VA issued a statement Monday that outlined the procedure under way to create uniform standards under which new symbols can be accepted, but did not comment on the lawsuit itself.

Stewart said she wants the lawsuit to send a message that the government can't pick and choose which faiths appear on headstones.

"I'm hoping it's going to open the door to allow other pagan faiths to be approved,"Stewart said.

Attorneys for Americans United argued in legal papers that it makes no sense for Wiccans to be excluded, saying that the Army allows Wiccan soldiers to list their faith on dog tags, that Wiccan organizations are allowed to hold services on military installations and that the Army Chaplains Handbook includes an explanation of the religion.

__________________
Si vis pacem parabellum.

Willravel

I really don't see the harm. It's not even a taboo to be wiccan anymore (cept maybe in Jesusland). I sincerly hope that they get to show their religon, as they gave their lives just like any Jew, Christian, Muslim, or athiest.

hunnychile

....so much for freedom of faith here in the good ol' US of A, huh?

__________________
"I need compassion, understanding and chocolate." - NJB

Ourcrazymodern?

Maybe we've got more important things to worry about: It seems not! Somebody please share with me: How can a symbol on a tombstone be more important than that the tombstone represents a life lost? Do the dead care, or are the living being selfish and a little retarded? I love you all - please stay alive and open-minded!

aKula

Well there isn't really much effort involved in allowing it instead of disallowing it.

__________________
"I am the wrath of God. The earth I pass will see me and tremble." -Klaus Kinski as Don Lope de Aguirre

Carno

The Dept of Veteran Affairs' being douchebags does not equal religious persecution. They might be discriminated against, but that is not exactly saying that they are not allowed to practice their religion. They are free to be Wiccans, the DoVA is just being retarded.

__________________
http://how-to-spell-ridiculous.com/

Lady Sage

The pentacle upright, inverted or otherwise is a symbol to many pagan faiths. Freedom of religion is a so called right, so why bend it over and do it dirty?

Those that die whom are of pagan belief mean no less to their families than the christian casualties. Let us have our symbol. What have we done to earn this type of discrimination?

People put stars atop their christmas trees, it is on military uniforms, we earned them as children on our homework assignments, people earn them in the Hollywood Walk of Fame. What is so different if you put a circle around it and engrave it on a headstone? Is a star so offensive?

__________________
If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Minds are like parachutes, they function best when open.
It`s Easier to Change a Condom Than a Diaper
Yes, the rumors are true... I actually AM a Witch.

Dilbert1234567

So can atheist get Darwin fish on there tomb stone? Why is it not ok to be buried under the symbol of your faith? They served our country, they gave there life, let them have there damn token of faith.

__________________
Donate Blood!

"Love is not finding the perfect person, but learning to see an imperfect person perfectly." -Sam Keen

jorgelito

Wow, this is totally weird. I never understand why we are so cold and aloof to our veterans. Whether it is denying them benefits or disallowing them the symbols of their faith for their own tombstone.

I find it funny that they are also intolerant of Christian symbols too when it comes to charitable gifts for theit Toys for Tots drive. I wonder if it is ok to donate some kind of Wiccan toy.

It would be nice if they could at least be consistent. Is there a Wiccan clergy or high councol that can act as an advocate for Wiccans in the military (and otherwise)?

ngdawg

I'm curious as to what all 38 'symbols' are. "Wicca" as it is now is a fairly 'new' order(although its roots predate Christianity quite a bit) and probably just not seen as a true religion within traditional views of religious followings.
Trying to get any government agency, especially the military, to budge on something they've 'always' done would be next to impossible; they'd be better off just getting and paying for what they want.

__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

Lady Sage

Toys for Tots doesnt allow toys of ANY religion.

"Wicca" was made a protected religion in the 1950's I believe.

Its all or nothing. Ban it all or allow it all. Someone I once worked with tried to tell me I could not wear my pentacle to work. I asked them if they would be willing to not wear their cross. They thought I was kidding. I simply stated if they tried to ban me from wearing mine I would take them to court to ban it all.

So no, I dont think toys of any religion should be given to T4T. I wouldnt want to give a child something they considered useless. A soldier however died for the right of freedom of religion among other rights. To deny him or her one in death is being a hypocrite IMHO.

__________________
If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Minds are like parachutes, they function best when open.
It`s Easier to Change a Condom Than a Diaper
Yes, the rumors are true... I actually AM a Witch.

JumpinJesus

I don't think there is any maliciousness on the part of the VA in refusing to chisel a Wiccan symbol on a headstone. In actuality, I'd more likely believe that they're terrified of offending others who might not understand what the Wiccan symbol is about and won't want to have to defend themselves. I'd be even more willing to believe that if you asked 100 VA workers, 99.995 of them don't even know that Wicca is a recognized and protected religion. Hell, I bet 99.995 percent of ANY group of people are unaware of it.

The VA is one of the most incompetent bureaucracies in existence and has never, ever been accused of fighting tooth and nail for the rights and benefits of veterans.

__________________
"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

dc_dux

There are some religions I never heard of whose symbols are allowed.....ECKANKAR, SOKA GAKKAI INTERNATIONAL.

Not to mention the HUMANIST EMBLEM OF SPIRIT

Available emblems of belief:
http://www.cem.va.gov/cem/hm/hmemb.asp

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Gilda

This is ridiculous, and it seems obvious to me to be a reaction to the pentacle being a symbol many Christians associate with Satanism or other "evil" religions. It's a simple numbers game--they'll offend fewer Wiccans by not putting the symbol on the tombstones than they will Christians by putting it there.

I do find it amusing that on the listing of approved symbols, they have a few that may have only a few thousand adherents in the US, such as KONKO-KYO FAITH, a sect of Shinto (which does not have an approved symbol) or IZUMO TAISHAKYO MISSION OF HAWAII, also with only a few thousand adherents.

The difference, of course, is that if you put a symbol for a small Japanese religion with a tiny number of American adherents on a tombstone, nobody is going to blink; a pentacle pisses off the wrong people. This doesn't make catering to their ignorance any better.

--------------------

So the Christians and the Pagans sat together at the table
Finding faith and common ground the best that they were able
Lighting trees in darkness, learning new ways from the old,
And making sense of history and drawing warmth out of the cold.

Dar Williams, "The Christians and the Pagans"

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

Dilbert1234567

nothing sums up religion quite like that...

__________________
Donate Blood!

"Love is not finding the perfect person, but learning to see an imperfect person perfectly." -Sam Keen

analog

In my pharmacy, we deal with a VA clinic on a somewhat regular basis... veterans unable to get there sometimes come to us to have a prescription filled. Getting a transfer from another pharmacy is normally a fairly quick procedure- getting ANYTHING from the VA clinic is like pulling teeth without anesthetic. They take forever to do anything, rarely return calls or faxes, and just act like we're wasting their time when we DO manage to communicate with them. No other group/people in the pharmacy or doctor businesses are anywhere near as bad.

...which is a shame.

Intense1

Speaking as a citizen of willravel's aforementioned "JesusLand", I am kinda puzzled as to why the Wiccan symbol isn't allowed on the gravestones of these deceased heros, when the symbols of 38 other religions are allowed. I mean, it would be understandable if only the cross, star of David or the stars and cresent were acceptable (representing Christianity, Judaism and Islam), but if religious symbols from the foreign-based Sokka Gakkai are allowed, why not Wicca?

Other than bureaucrasy, I can't think of another reason wny it's not allowed, especially if these brave souls died with a Wiccan designation on their dogtags.

Then again, I can imagine the stink that would be raised by Christians who would walk by the graves in Arlington and see the Wiccan symbol.....

Yikes, what an uproar that would be.

__________________
(none yet, still thinkin')

Crack

My dog tags said "Jedi" Swear to god.

It helped that I had made out with the chick that was making them the night before at the officers club..

__________________
Crack, you and I are long overdue for a vicious bout of mansex.

~Halx

highthief

I think I have to disagree here. The spouses and families of the deceased have been fighting for years to get this allowed so it's not like the lawsuit would have been some big surprise. The VA has had years to become aware and even marginally educated about this matter. And given that I cannot really see the VA winning this suit, I'm more inclined to think of them as being spiteful and deliberately stubborn in this matter.

__________________
Si vis pacem parabellum.

Pip

That was a strange collection of symbols indeed. I guess some beliefs/churches have better lobbyists than others.

I was a bit surprised there was no Asatru symbol, it's a good religion for warriors. :P

ngdawg

The Civil War Confederate Southern Cross of Honor??

__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

secretgem

How many of you actively practice Wicca whether or not it be as a Solitaire?

__________________

levite

Oh, good Lord, that's just ridiculous! If someone is brave or stupid enough to volunteer to give up his life for this country, they should put whatever the hell he wants on his tombstone! He died for the freaking USA! The least the damn American government can do is display the symbol of his faith, whatever it might be. I don't care if he was a goddamn cock worshipper, put a stone stiffy on the guy's grave and let him have some peace. And if someone wants to complain about it, let them go volunteer to die for the country!

Christ, talk about fucking insensitive bastards!

__________________
Dull sublunary lovers love,
Whose soul is sense, cannot admit
Absence, because it doth remove
That thing which elemented it.

(From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne)

n0nsensical

Old news. Check that list again, #37.

__________________
"Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded." --Abraham Lincoln

Plan9

+1 Minor threadjack:

Dog tags thing is total bunk. I was a paratrooper at Bragg and my unit was notorious for all sorts of crazy shit on the "religion" line of the ID tags.

One guy was "Ins Salesmn," another was "Jedi Knight." We had "Godless" and "Pork Eater." I've seen some hilarious ones.

...

ID tags don't mean anything. You get them for $1.50 at the sew shop and nobody cares what it says on it as long as it has your accurate name, social, and blood type above it.

Didn't you just say "...or stupid enough." Who's insensitive?

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Anormalguy

Ya beat me to it. The list of symbols has been updated since the link was first posted.

__________________
In a society where the individual is not free to pursue the truth...there is neither progress, stability nor security.--Edward R. Murrow

telekinetic

You're right, it is old news. 2 years old to be specific.

__________________
twisted no more

Cynosure

Those of you who are Wiccan practitioners/supporters, here, should've already known that.



Really, this is, like, the third or forth time I've seen a thread on this very subject flame up, on a message board such as this, in the past couple of years.

Plan9

But I love ID tags.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

LordEden

/THREADJACK [minor]

Think we could get Pastafarism on the list?

__________________
Vice-President of the CinnamonGirl Fan Club - The Meat of the Zombiesquirrel and CinnamonGirl Sandwich

Slims

...Maybe because some guy made it all up in the 1950's in order to make money.

__________________
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

Baraka_Guru

I thought Wicca was that thing Christianity appropriated hundreds of years ago.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

lostgirl

I believe he is referring to Pastafarism that LordEden mentioned in the previous post.

roachboy

back in the olde days, there was little difference between xtianity and other forms of magick. augustine argues in city of god that rome should convert because jesus-mojo was bigger than other forms of mojo, and this would be demonstrated in various miracle contests.
made for a pretty exciting period, all these magician duels, i would expect.

then later, after aquinas and other such, xtianity entered a more paranoid, less magical phase. some of the stuff that aquinas hallucinated about the outer edges of xtiandom found their way into canon law, and with that the great adventure of witch hunting was born. it was never clear if there actually was a witchcraft that was being hunted or if it was a construct--and in those cases where there was clearly something else going on, how and in what ways what the inquisition thought was happening intersected with what was happening. much of this confusion probably comes from the inquisition's use of torture as an interrogation technique---oddly, things were even more out of hand in protestant areas which took over the idea without the legal procedures. those wacky guys.

basically, it is not obvious either that there was or was not a continuous tradition of witchcraft, or if it is a way of referring to all kinds of magic practices that don't necessarily have much to do with each other, or if it was a function of christian paranoia about anything and everything that is not itself.

so what crowley and others outlined is no more or less legit than anything else, and is certainly no more or less legit as a religion (even if it is one for people who like to think themselves Naughty in a way) than any other, including christianity. they're all charades that people believe in so aren't charades unless you don't believe in them.

there was a point to this, but i've forgotten it.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Slims

No, modern Wicca was more or less created by Gerald Gardner in 1954 who wrote a book popularizing "Witchcraft" and detailing ceremonies, traditions, etc. Most of which he made up...taking inspiration from just about every major religious tradition. Christianity borrowed a few bits and pieces (like the Christmas Tree) from earlier religions, but they were emphatically not Wicca.

The simple fact is that there is almost zero surviving knowledge of the real religious traditions of the 'Druids' or 'Celtic Pagans.' The information simply isn't there, aside from a few lines written in Caesars Conquest of Gaul.

Gardner took an empty void and built a tradition out of it, but all roads lead to him.

__________________
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

lostgirl

I guess I misunderstood, my apologies.

roachboy

slims--that actually doesn't alter anything about my basic point--but it's interesting nonetheless.
i don't see how being able to say "it starts here, in 1954, for cash" makes it any more or less legit than any other religion.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Slims

Um, at least the hokey-pokey origins for other religions are buried by time.

This one is a clear cut scam for gullible people. No different than the Nigerian E-mail scams that are so popular.

The military has at least a small obligation to protect it's soldiers from stupidity. That the big three religions are so entrenched as to be untouchable by the establishment doesn't mean the Army shouldn't be able to shield it's soldiers from this superstition.

At least scientology let's people make lots of money and become accepted members of society before it milks them dry.


Personally, if I were to pick a fake religion I would go with the Church of the Subgenious. At least they have a doctrine and a bible of sorts. Plus, for a small fee you can be guaranteed entrance into heaven upon your death or your money back.*


As far as your original point, you are right in that there is likely little difference in now religions originate. The older religions, however, have had hundreds of years of social and doctrinal evolution working away at them. Christianity as it is practiced today is night and day different than it was originally, except for the basic premises which many would argue are all that matters.

__________________
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

roachboy

i'm not sure what you mean by calling the church of the sub-genius fake.
everyone is looking for slack.
everyone wants to avoid the stark fist of removal.
everyone looks to j.r. "bob" dobbs when they see his face stenciled on the ground or in an avatar.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Slims

Touche, I forgot you had he and his corn cob pipe immortalized in your avatar.

Oh, and to be clear, I don't personally care what symbol someone wants on their tombstone, I would allow it. I am (partially) playing devils advocate here, and partially seriously arguing that it is hard to claim something so preposterous as Wicca as a real religion.

As Douglas Adams said so eloquently: "I don’t accept the currently fashionable assertion that any view is automatically as worthy of respect as any equal and opposite view. My view is that the moon is made of rock. If someone says to me “Well, you haven’t been there, have you? You haven’t seen it for yourself, so my view that it is made of Norwegian Beaver Cheese is equally valid” - then I can’t even be bothered to argue"

Of course, he was talking about religion in general, but I think it is equally appropriate here.

__________________
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence