Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community  

Go Back   Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community > Chatter > General Discussion


 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 11-14-2006, 05:34 PM   #1 (permalink)
Junkie
 
highthief's Avatar
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
So, why not Wicca?

I'm blown away by this one. The military allows virtually any other faith to be displayed on a soldier's tombstone, and indeed, are ok with the Wiccan faith to be noted on a soldier's dogtags, but the poor bastards can't have it on their headstone?

This one leaves me scratching my head:


http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2006Nov...oldier,00.html


Widows Sue Over Wicca Symbol, Headstones
Monday, November 13, 2006


By SCOTT BAUER, Associated Press Writer

MADISON, Wis. — The widows of two Wiccan combat veterans sued the government Monday, saying the military has dragged its feet on allowing the religion's symbols on headstones.

The Department of Veterans Affairs allows military families to choose any of 38 authorized headstone images. The list includes commonly recognized symbols for Christianity, Buddhism, Islam and Judaism, as well as those for smaller religions such as Sufism Reoriented, Eckiankar and the Japanese faith Seicho-No-Ie.

The Wiccan pentacle, a five-pointed star surrounded by a circle, is not on the list, an omission the widows say is unconstitutional.

Wiccans worship the Earth and believe they must give to the community. Some consider themselves"white,"or good, witches, pagans or neo-pagans. Approximately 1,800 active-duty service members identify themselves as Wiccans, according to 2005 Defense Department statistics.

The lawsuit was filed by four plaintiffs: Roberta Stewart, whose husband, Nevada National Guard Sgt. Patrick Stewart, was killed in combat in Afghanistan last year; Karen DePolito, whose husband, Jerome Birnbaum, is a Korean War veteran who died last year; Circle Sanctuary, a Wisconsin-based Wiccan church; and Isis Invicta Military Mission, a California-based Wiccan and pagan congregation serving military personnel.

It claims that the VA has made"excuse after excuse"for more than nine years for not approving the symbol and that by doing so, it has trampled on the plaintiffs'constitutional rights of freedom of speech, religion and due process.

Circle Sanctuary and Stewart began calling in 1997 for the VA to allow the symbol's use.

Americans United for Separation of Church and State, a Washington, D.C.-based group representing the plaintiffs in court, is seeking an order compelling the VA to make a decision.

"After asking the VA on a number of occasions to stop its unfair treatment of Wiccans in the military, we have no alternative but to seek justice in the courts,"said the Rev. Barry Lynn, the group's executive director.

The lawsuit was filed in U.S. District Court in Madison and the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit in Washington.

In memos and letters cited by the lawsuit, Lindee L. Lenox, director of memorial programs for the veterans agency, said the government was reviewing the process for evaluating and approving new emblems and would not accept new applications until the review was complete.

The VA issued a statement Monday that outlined the procedure under way to create uniform standards under which new symbols can be accepted, but did not comment on the lawsuit itself.

Stewart said she wants the lawsuit to send a message that the government can't pick and choose which faiths appear on headstones.

"I'm hoping it's going to open the door to allow other pagan faiths to be approved,"Stewart said.

Attorneys for Americans United argued in legal papers that it makes no sense for Wiccans to be excluded, saying that the Army allows Wiccan soldiers to list their faith on dog tags, that Wiccan organizations are allowed to hold services on military installations and that the Army Chaplains Handbook includes an explanation of the religion.
__________________
Si vis pacem parabellum.
highthief is offline  
Old 11-14-2006, 05:37 PM   #2 (permalink)
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
 
Willravel's Avatar
 
I really don't see the harm. It's not even a taboo to be wiccan anymore (cept maybe in Jesusland). I sincerly hope that they get to show their religon, as they gave their lives just like any Jew, Christian, Muslim, or athiest.
Willravel is offline  
Old 11-14-2006, 05:46 PM   #3 (permalink)
Alien Anthropologist
 
hunnychile's Avatar
 
Location: Between Boredom and Nirvana
....so much for freedom of faith here in the good ol' US of A, huh?
__________________
"I need compassion, understanding and chocolate." - NJB
hunnychile is offline  
Old 11-14-2006, 06:25 PM   #4 (permalink)
still, wondering.
 
Ourcrazymodern?'s Avatar
 
Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge
Maybe we've got more important things to worry about: It seems not! Somebody please share with me: How can a symbol on a tombstone be more important than that the tombstone represents a life lost? Do the dead care, or are the living being selfish and a little retarded? I love you all - please stay alive and open-minded!
Ourcrazymodern? is offline  
Old 11-14-2006, 06:45 PM   #5 (permalink)
Psycho
 
aKula's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ourcrazymodern?
Maybe we've got more important things to worry about: It seems not! Somebody please share with me: How can a symbol on a tombstone be more important than that the tombstone represents a life lost? Do the dead care, or are the living being selfish and a little retarded? I love you all - please stay alive and open-minded!
Well there isn't really much effort involved in allowing it instead of disallowing it.
__________________
"I am the wrath of God. The earth I pass will see me and tremble." -Klaus Kinski as Don Lope de Aguirre
aKula is offline  
Old 11-14-2006, 06:49 PM   #6 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Carno's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hunnychile
....so much for freedom of faith here in the good ol' US of A, huh?
The Dept of Veteran Affairs' being douchebags does not equal religious persecution. They might be discriminated against, but that is not exactly saying that they are not allowed to practice their religion. They are free to be Wiccans, the DoVA is just being retarded.
Carno is offline  
Old 11-14-2006, 06:55 PM   #7 (permalink)
Mistress of Mayhem
 
Lady Sage's Avatar
 
Location: Canton, Ohio
The pentacle upright, inverted or otherwise is a symbol to many pagan faiths. Freedom of religion is a so called right, so why bend it over and do it dirty?

Those that die whom are of pagan belief mean no less to their families than the christian casualties. Let us have our symbol. What have we done to earn this type of discrimination?

People put stars atop their christmas trees, it is on military uniforms, we earned them as children on our homework assignments, people earn them in the Hollywood Walk of Fame. What is so different if you put a circle around it and engrave it on a headstone? Is a star so offensive?
__________________
If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Minds are like parachutes, they function best when open
.
It`s Easier to Change a Condom Than a Diaper
Yes, the rumors are true... I actually AM a Witch.
Lady Sage is offline  
Old 11-14-2006, 07:21 PM   #8 (permalink)
Devils Cabana Boy
 
Dilbert1234567's Avatar
 
Location: Central Coast CA
So can atheist get Darwin fish on there tomb stone? Why is it not ok to be buried under the symbol of your faith? They served our country, they gave there life, let them have there damn token of faith.
__________________
Donate Blood!

"Love is not finding the perfect person, but learning to see an imperfect person perfectly." -Sam Keen
Dilbert1234567 is offline  
Old 11-14-2006, 07:26 PM   #9 (permalink)
All important elusive independent swing voter...
 
jorgelito's Avatar
 
Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia
Wow, this is totally weird. I never understand why we are so cold and aloof to our veterans. Whether it is denying them benefits or disallowing them the symbols of their faith for their own tombstone.

I find it funny that they are also intolerant of Christian symbols too when it comes to charitable gifts for theit Toys for Tots drive. I wonder if it is ok to donate some kind of Wiccan toy.

It would be nice if they could at least be consistent. Is there a Wiccan clergy or high councol that can act as an advocate for Wiccans in the military (and otherwise)?
jorgelito is offline  
Old 11-14-2006, 07:38 PM   #10 (permalink)
peekaboo
 
ngdawg's Avatar
 
Location: on the back, bitch
I'm curious as to what all 38 'symbols' are. "Wicca" as it is now is a fairly 'new' order(although its roots predate Christianity quite a bit) and probably just not seen as a true religion within traditional views of religious followings.
Trying to get any government agency, especially the military, to budge on something they've 'always' done would be next to impossible; they'd be better off just getting and paying for what they want.
__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.
ngdawg is offline  
Old 11-14-2006, 08:18 PM   #11 (permalink)
Mistress of Mayhem
 
Lady Sage's Avatar
 
Location: Canton, Ohio
Toys for Tots doesnt allow toys of ANY religion.

"Wicca" was made a protected religion in the 1950's I believe.

Its all or nothing. Ban it all or allow it all. Someone I once worked with tried to tell me I could not wear my pentacle to work. I asked them if they would be willing to not wear their cross. They thought I was kidding. I simply stated if they tried to ban me from wearing mine I would take them to court to ban it all.

So no, I dont think toys of any religion should be given to T4T. I wouldnt want to give a child something they considered useless. A soldier however died for the right of freedom of religion among other rights. To deny him or her one in death is being a hypocrite IMHO.
__________________
If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Minds are like parachutes, they function best when open
.
It`s Easier to Change a Condom Than a Diaper
Yes, the rumors are true... I actually AM a Witch.
Lady Sage is offline  
Old 11-14-2006, 08:36 PM   #12 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Location: Chicago
I don't think there is any maliciousness on the part of the VA in refusing to chisel a Wiccan symbol on a headstone. In actuality, I'd more likely believe that they're terrified of offending others who might not understand what the Wiccan symbol is about and won't want to have to defend themselves. I'd be even more willing to believe that if you asked 100 VA workers, 99.995 of them don't even know that Wicca is a recognized and protected religion. Hell, I bet 99.995 percent of ANY group of people are unaware of it.

The VA is one of the most incompetent bureaucracies in existence and has never, ever been accused of fighting tooth and nail for the rights and benefits of veterans.
__________________
"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses
JumpinJesus is offline  
Old 11-14-2006, 08:52 PM   #13 (permalink)
 
dc_dux's Avatar
 
Location: Washington DC
There are some religions I never heard of whose symbols are allowed.....ECKANKAR, SOKA GAKKAI INTERNATIONAL.

Not to mention the HUMANIST EMBLEM OF SPIRIT

Available emblems of belief:
http://www.cem.va.gov/cem/hm/hmemb.asp
__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire
dc_dux is offline  
Old 11-14-2006, 08:56 PM   #14 (permalink)
32 flavors and then some
 
Gilda's Avatar
 
Location: Out on a wire.
This is ridiculous, and it seems obvious to me to be a reaction to the pentacle being a symbol many Christians associate with Satanism or other "evil" religions. It's a simple numbers game--they'll offend fewer Wiccans by not putting the symbol on the tombstones than they will Christians by putting it there.

I do find it amusing that on the listing of approved symbols, they have a few that may have only a few thousand adherents in the US, such as KONKO-KYO FAITH, a sect of Shinto (which does not have an approved symbol) or IZUMO TAISHAKYO MISSION OF HAWAII, also with only a few thousand adherents.

The difference, of course, is that if you put a symbol for a small Japanese religion with a tiny number of American adherents on a tombstone, nobody is going to blink; a pentacle pisses off the wrong people. This doesn't make catering to their ignorance any better.

--------------------

So the Christians and the Pagans sat together at the table
Finding faith and common ground the best that they were able
Lighting trees in darkness, learning new ways from the old,
And making sense of history and drawing warmth out of the cold.


Dar Williams, "The Christians and the Pagans"
__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

Last edited by Gilda; 11-14-2006 at 08:58 PM..
Gilda is offline  
Old 11-14-2006, 09:56 PM   #15 (permalink)
Devils Cabana Boy
 
Dilbert1234567's Avatar
 
Location: Central Coast CA
Quote:
Originally Posted by http://www.cem.va.gov/cem/hm/hmemb.asp
Not shown because of copyrights
nothing sums up religion quite like that...
__________________
Donate Blood!

"Love is not finding the perfect person, but learning to see an imperfect person perfectly." -Sam Keen
Dilbert1234567 is offline  
Old 11-14-2006, 10:34 PM   #16 (permalink)
Banned
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JumpinJesus
The VA is one of the most incompetent bureaucracies in existence and has never, ever been accused of fighting tooth and nail for the rights and benefits of veterans.
In my pharmacy, we deal with a VA clinic on a somewhat regular basis... veterans unable to get there sometimes come to us to have a prescription filled. Getting a transfer from another pharmacy is normally a fairly quick procedure- getting ANYTHING from the VA clinic is like pulling teeth without anesthetic. They take forever to do anything, rarely return calls or faxes, and just act like we're wasting their time when we DO manage to communicate with them. No other group/people in the pharmacy or doctor businesses are anywhere near as bad.

...which is a shame.
analog is offline  
Old 11-14-2006, 10:35 PM   #17 (permalink)
Crazy
 
Intense1's Avatar
 
Location: Music City burbs
Speaking as a citizen of willravel's aforementioned "JesusLand", I am kinda puzzled as to why the Wiccan symbol isn't allowed on the gravestones of these deceased heros, when the symbols of 38 other religions are allowed. I mean, it would be understandable if only the cross, star of David or the stars and cresent were acceptable (representing Christianity, Judaism and Islam), but if religious symbols from the foreign-based Sokka Gakkai are allowed, why not Wicca?

Other than bureaucrasy, I can't think of another reason wny it's not allowed, especially if these brave souls died with a Wiccan designation on their dogtags.

Then again, I can imagine the stink that would be raised by Christians who would walk by the graves in Arlington and see the Wiccan symbol.....

Yikes, what an uproar that would be.
__________________
(none yet, still thinkin')

Last edited by Intense1; 11-14-2006 at 10:37 PM..
Intense1 is offline  
Old 11-15-2006, 05:43 AM   #18 (permalink)
Misanthropic
 
Crack's Avatar
 
Location: Ohio! yay!
My dog tags said "Jedi" Swear to god.

It helped that I had made out with the chick that was making them the night before at the officers club..
__________________
Crack, you and I are long overdue for a vicious bout of mansex.

~Halx
Crack is offline  
Old 11-15-2006, 09:16 AM   #19 (permalink)
Junkie
 
highthief's Avatar
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
Quote:
Originally Posted by JumpinJesus
I don't think there is any maliciousness on the part of the VA in refusing to chisel a Wiccan symbol on a headstone.
I think I have to disagree here. The spouses and families of the deceased have been fighting for years to get this allowed so it's not like the lawsuit would have been some big surprise. The VA has had years to become aware and even marginally educated about this matter. And given that I cannot really see the VA winning this suit, I'm more inclined to think of them as being spiteful and deliberately stubborn in this matter.
__________________
Si vis pacem parabellum.
highthief is offline  
Old 11-15-2006, 12:35 PM   #20 (permalink)
Pip
Likes Hats
 
Pip's Avatar
 
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Quote:
Originally Posted by dc_dux
There are some religions I never heard of whose symbols are allowed.....ECKANKAR, SOKA GAKKAI INTERNATIONAL.

Not to mention the HUMANIST EMBLEM OF SPIRIT

Available emblems of belief:
http://www.cem.va.gov/cem/hm/hmemb.asp
That was a strange collection of symbols indeed. I guess some beliefs/churches have better lobbyists than others.

I was a bit surprised there was no Asatru symbol, it's a good religion for warriors. :P
Pip is offline  
Old 11-15-2006, 01:03 PM   #21 (permalink)
peekaboo
 
ngdawg's Avatar
 
Location: on the back, bitch
The Civil War Confederate Southern Cross of Honor??
__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.
ngdawg is offline  
Old 01-19-2009, 07:25 PM   #22 (permalink)
Upright
 
secretgem's Avatar
 
Location: Nunya
Wiccan?

How many of you actively practice Wicca whether or not it be as a Solitaire?
__________________
secretgem is offline  
Old 01-19-2009, 07:37 PM   #23 (permalink)
Minion of Joss
 
levite's Avatar
 
Location: The Windy City
Oh, good Lord, that's just ridiculous! If someone is brave or stupid enough to volunteer to give up his life for this country, they should put whatever the hell he wants on his tombstone! He died for the freaking USA! The least the damn American government can do is display the symbol of his faith, whatever it might be. I don't care if he was a goddamn cock worshipper, put a stone stiffy on the guy's grave and let him have some peace. And if someone wants to complain about it, let them go volunteer to die for the country!

Christ, talk about fucking insensitive bastards!
__________________
Dull sublunary lovers love,
Whose soul is sense, cannot admit
Absence, because it doth remove
That thing which elemented it.

(From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne)
levite is offline  
Old 01-19-2009, 07:54 PM   #24 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Location: San Francisco
Old news. Check that list again, #37.
__________________
"Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded." --Abraham Lincoln
n0nsensical is offline  
Old 01-19-2009, 08:08 PM   #25 (permalink)
I Confess a Shiver
 
Plan9's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crack View Post
My dog tags said "Jedi" Swear to god.
+1 Minor threadjack:

Dog tags thing is total bunk. I was a paratrooper at Bragg and my unit was notorious for all sorts of crazy shit on the "religion" line of the ID tags.

One guy was "Ins Salesmn," another was "Jedi Knight." We had "Godless" and "Pork Eater." I've seen some hilarious ones.

...

ID tags don't mean anything. You get them for $1.50 at the sew shop and nobody cares what it says on it as long as it has your accurate name, social, and blood type above it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by levite View Post
Oh, good Lord, that's just ridiculous! If someone is brave or stupid enough to volunteer to give up his life for this country, they should put whatever the hell he wants on his tombstone! He died for the freaking USA! The least the damn American government can do is display the symbol of his faith, whatever it might be. I don't care if he was a goddamn cock worshipper, put a stone stiffy on the guy's grave and let him have some peace. And if someone wants to complain about it, let them go volunteer to die for the country!

Christ, talk about fucking insensitive bastards!
Didn't you just say "...or stupid enough." Who's insensitive?
__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Last edited by Plan9; 01-19-2009 at 08:12 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Plan9 is offline  
Old 01-19-2009, 08:28 PM   #26 (permalink)
After School Special Moralist
 
Location: Large City, Texas.
Quote:
Originally Posted by n0nsensical View Post
Old news. Check that list again, #37.
Ya beat me to it. The list of symbols has been updated since the link was first posted.
__________________
In a society where the individual is not free to pursue the truth...there is neither progress, stability nor security.--Edward R. Murrow
Anormalguy is offline  
Old 01-20-2009, 05:39 AM   #27 (permalink)
zomgomgomgomgomgomg
 
telekinetic's Avatar
 
Location: Fauxenix, Azerona
Quote:
Originally Posted by n0nsensical View Post
Old news. Check that list again, #37.
You're right, it is old news. 2 years old to be specific.
__________________
twisted no more
telekinetic is offline  
Old 01-20-2009, 06:29 AM   #28 (permalink)
Psycho
 
Cynosure's Avatar
 
Location: the center of the multiverse
Quote:
Originally Posted by n0nsensical View Post
Old news. Check that list again, #37.
Quote:
Originally Posted by twistedmosaic View Post
You're right, it is old news. 2 years old to be specific.
Those of you who are Wiccan practitioners/supporters, here, should've already known that.



Really, this is, like, the third or forth time I've seen a thread on this very subject flame up, on a message board such as this, in the past couple of years.
Cynosure is offline  
Old 01-20-2009, 07:05 AM   #29 (permalink)
I Confess a Shiver
 
Plan9's Avatar
 
But I love ID tags.
__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."
Plan9 is offline  
Old 01-20-2009, 09:43 AM   #30 (permalink)
Paladin of the Palate
 
LordEden's Avatar
 
Location: Redneckville, NC
/THREADJACK [minor]

Think we could get Pastafarism on the list?
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru View Post
In my own personal experience---this is just anecdotal, mind you---I have found that there is always room to be found between boobs.
Vice-President of the CinnamonGirl Fan Club - The Meat of the Zombiesquirrel and CinnamonGirl Sandwich
LordEden is offline  
Old 01-20-2009, 10:32 AM   #31 (permalink)
Eccentric insomniac
 
Slims's Avatar
 
Location: North Carolina
...Maybe because some guy made it all up in the 1950's in order to make money.
__________________
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence
Slims is offline  
Old 01-20-2009, 10:43 AM   #32 (permalink)
warrior bodhisattva
 
Baraka_Guru's Avatar
 
Super Moderator
Location: East-central Canada
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slims View Post
...Maybe because some guy made it all up in the 1950's in order to make money.
I thought Wicca was that thing Christianity appropriated hundreds of years ago.
__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Last edited by Baraka_Guru; 01-20-2009 at 10:44 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Baraka_Guru is offline  
Old 01-20-2009, 10:47 AM   #33 (permalink)
lightform
 
lostgirl's Avatar
 
Location: Edge of the deep green sea
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru View Post
I thought Wicca was that thing Christianity appropriated hundreds of years ago.

I believe he is referring to Pastafarism that LordEden mentioned in the previous post.
lostgirl is offline  
Old 01-20-2009, 10:58 AM   #34 (permalink)
 
roachboy's Avatar
 
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
back in the olde days, there was little difference between xtianity and other forms of magick. augustine argues in city of god that rome should convert because jesus-mojo was bigger than other forms of mojo, and this would be demonstrated in various miracle contests.
made for a pretty exciting period, all these magician duels, i would expect.

then later, after aquinas and other such, xtianity entered a more paranoid, less magical phase. some of the stuff that aquinas hallucinated about the outer edges of xtiandom found their way into canon law, and with that the great adventure of witch hunting was born. it was never clear if there actually was a witchcraft that was being hunted or if it was a construct--and in those cases where there was clearly something else going on, how and in what ways what the inquisition thought was happening intersected with what was happening. much of this confusion probably comes from the inquisition's use of torture as an interrogation technique---oddly, things were even more out of hand in protestant areas which took over the idea without the legal procedures. those wacky guys.

basically, it is not obvious either that there was or was not a continuous tradition of witchcraft, or if it is a way of referring to all kinds of magic practices that don't necessarily have much to do with each other, or if it was a function of christian paranoia about anything and everything that is not itself.

so what crowley and others outlined is no more or less legit than anything else, and is certainly no more or less legit as a religion (even if it is one for people who like to think themselves Naughty in a way) than any other, including christianity. they're all charades that people believe in so aren't charades unless you don't believe in them.

there was a point to this, but i've forgotten it.
__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite
roachboy is offline  
Old 01-20-2009, 11:02 AM   #35 (permalink)
Eccentric insomniac
 
Slims's Avatar
 
Location: North Carolina
No, modern Wicca was more or less created by Gerald Gardner in 1954 who wrote a book popularizing "Witchcraft" and detailing ceremonies, traditions, etc. Most of which he made up...taking inspiration from just about every major religious tradition. Christianity borrowed a few bits and pieces (like the Christmas Tree) from earlier religions, but they were emphatically not Wicca.

The simple fact is that there is almost zero surviving knowledge of the real religious traditions of the 'Druids' or 'Celtic Pagans.' The information simply isn't there, aside from a few lines written in Caesars Conquest of Gaul.

Gardner took an empty void and built a tradition out of it, but all roads lead to him.
__________________
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence
Slims is offline  
Old 01-20-2009, 11:03 AM   #36 (permalink)
lightform
 
lostgirl's Avatar
 
Location: Edge of the deep green sea
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slims View Post
No, modern Wicca was more or less created by Gerald Gardner in 1954 who wrote a book popularizing "Witchcraft" and detailing ceremonies, traditions, etc. Most of which he made up...taking inspiration from just about every major religious tradition. Christianity borrowed a few bits and pieces (like the Christmas Tree) from earlier religions, but they were emphatically not Wicca.

The simple fact is that there is almost zero surviving knowledge of the real religious traditions of the 'Druids' or 'Celtic Pagans.' The information simply isn't there, aside from a few lines written in Caesars Conquest of Gaul.

Gardner took an empty void and built a tradition out of it, but all roads lead to him.

I guess I misunderstood, my apologies.
lostgirl is offline  
Old 01-20-2009, 11:34 AM   #37 (permalink)
 
roachboy's Avatar
 
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
slims--that actually doesn't alter anything about my basic point--but it's interesting nonetheless.
i don't see how being able to say "it starts here, in 1954, for cash" makes it any more or less legit than any other religion.
__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite
roachboy is offline  
Old 01-20-2009, 01:14 PM   #38 (permalink)
Eccentric insomniac
 
Slims's Avatar
 
Location: North Carolina
Um, at least the hokey-pokey origins for other religions are buried by time.

This one is a clear cut scam for gullible people. No different than the Nigerian E-mail scams that are so popular.

The military has at least a small obligation to protect it's soldiers from stupidity. That the big three religions are so entrenched as to be untouchable by the establishment doesn't mean the Army shouldn't be able to shield it's soldiers from this superstition.

At least scientology let's people make lots of money and become accepted members of society before it milks them dry.


Personally, if I were to pick a fake religion I would go with the Church of the Subgenious. At least they have a doctrine and a bible of sorts. Plus, for a small fee you can be guaranteed entrance into heaven upon your death or your money back.*


As far as your original point, you are right in that there is likely little difference in now religions originate. The older religions, however, have had hundreds of years of social and doctrinal evolution working away at them. Christianity as it is practiced today is night and day different than it was originally, except for the basic premises which many would argue are all that matters.
__________________
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

Last edited by Slims; 01-20-2009 at 01:17 PM..
Slims is offline  
Old 01-20-2009, 01:17 PM   #39 (permalink)
 
roachboy's Avatar
 
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
i'm not sure what you mean by calling the church of the sub-genius fake.
everyone is looking for slack.
everyone wants to avoid the stark fist of removal.
everyone looks to j.r. "bob" dobbs when they see his face stenciled on the ground or in an avatar.
__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite
roachboy is offline  
Old 01-20-2009, 01:23 PM   #40 (permalink)
Eccentric insomniac
 
Slims's Avatar
 
Location: North Carolina
Touche, I forgot you had he and his corn cob pipe immortalized in your avatar.

Oh, and to be clear, I don't personally care what symbol someone wants on their tombstone, I would allow it. I am (partially) playing devils advocate here, and partially seriously arguing that it is hard to claim something so preposterous as Wicca as a real religion.

As Douglas Adams said so eloquently: "I don’t accept the currently fashionable assertion that any view is automatically as worthy of respect as any equal and opposite view. My view is that the moon is made of rock. If someone says to me “Well, you haven’t been there, have you? You haven’t seen it for yourself, so my view that it is made of Norwegian Beaver Cheese is equally valid” - then I can’t even be bothered to argue"

Of course, he was talking about religion in general, but I think it is equally appropriate here.
__________________
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence
Slims is offline  
 

Tags
so, wicca

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 01:04 AM.

Tilted Forum Project

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
© 2002-2012 Tilted Forum Project

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 259 260 261 262 263 264 265 266 267 268 269 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360