Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community  

Go Back   Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community > Chatter > General Discussion


 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 11-14-2006, 11:14 AM   #1 (permalink)
<3 TFP
 
xepherys's Avatar
 
Location: 17TLH2445607250
Toys for Tots says No to Jesus!

Quote:
Originally Posted by http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/11/14/toy.jesus.ap/index.html
LOS ANGELES, California (AP) -- A talking Jesus doll has been turned down by the Marine Reserves' Toys for Tots program.

A Los Angeles company offered to donate 4,000 of the 1 foot-tall dolls, which quote Bible verses, for distribution to needy children this holiday season. The battery-powered Jesus is one of several dolls manufactured by one2believe, a division of the Valencia-based Beverly Hills Teddy Bear Co., based on biblical figures.

But the charity balked because of the dolls' religious nature.

Toys are donated to kids based on financial need and "we don't know anything about their background, their religious affiliations," said Bill Grein, vice president of Marine Toys for Tots Foundation, in Quantico, Virginia.

As a government entity, Marines "don't profess one religion over another," Grein said Tuesday. "We can't take a chance on sending a talking Jesus doll to a Jewish family or a Muslim family."

Michael La Roe, director of business development for both companies,
said the charity's decision left him "surprised and disappointed."

"The idea was for them to be three-dimensional teaching tools for kids," La Roe said. "I believe as a churchgoing person, anyone can benefit from hearing the words of the Bible."

According to the company's Web site, the button-activated, bearded Jesus, dressed in hand-sewn cloth outfits and sandals, recites Scripture such as "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again" and "Love your neighbor as yourself." It has a $20 retail value.

Grein questioned whether children would welcome a gift designed for religious instruction. "Kids want a gift for the holiday season that is fun," he said.

The program distributed 18 million stuffed animals, games, toy trucks and other gifts to children in 2005.
So yeah... I agree with this stance. I'm a bit sickened by the fact that someone is actually SUPRISED by the fact they turned down the offer. Also, "Michael La Roe, director of business development for both companies"... does that mean the jesus doll manufacturer AND the Toys for Tots Charity? I was a touch confused on this part.

At any rate, good for them turning it down!
__________________
The prospect of achieving a peace agreement with the extremist group of MILF is almost impossible...
-- Emmanuel Pinol, Governor of Cotobato


My Homepage
xepherys is offline  
Old 11-14-2006, 11:25 AM   #2 (permalink)
Insane
 
Tamerlain's Avatar
 
Location: Victoria
Quote:
...manufactured by one2believe, a division of the Valencia-based Beverly Hills Teddy Bear Co...
I think it means that he's the director for both of those companies.

And I agree with you, I'm surprised that he's surprised they turned down his offer. It's not a Christian group he was offering toys too, so he shouldn't be surprised at all.

-Tamerlain
__________________
I never let school interfere with my education.
Tamerlain is offline  
Old 11-14-2006, 11:27 AM   #3 (permalink)
Kick Ass Kunoichi
 
snowy's Avatar
 
Location: Oregon
This seems like a no-brainer to me. The Toys For Tots program clearly made the right decision here.
__________________
If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau
snowy is offline  
Old 11-14-2006, 11:30 AM   #4 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Infinite_Loser's Avatar
 
Location: Lake Mary, FL
So if they didn't recite Bible verses, then they'd be ok? Or is it the fact that they resembled a religious figure?
__________________
I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.
Infinite_Loser is offline  
Old 11-14-2006, 11:35 AM   #5 (permalink)
<3 TFP
 
xepherys's Avatar
 
Location: 17TLH2445607250
I'd imagine it's both. It's religious in nature, for both reasons, and that's where the problem lies. It's not even really anti-religious, as far as the decision goes, but I think it's in good taste.
__________________
The prospect of achieving a peace agreement with the extremist group of MILF is almost impossible...
-- Emmanuel Pinol, Governor of Cotobato


My Homepage
xepherys is offline  
Old 11-14-2006, 11:37 AM   #6 (permalink)
All important elusive independent swing voter...
 
jorgelito's Avatar
 
Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia
I don't know man, I mean, the gifts are a nice gesture. It should be up to the parent to decide if they want it or not.

It seems about as smart a decision as the muslims turning down Jewish doctors during the tsunami.
jorgelito is offline  
Old 11-14-2006, 11:51 AM   #7 (permalink)
Adequate
 
cyrnel's Avatar
 
Location: In my angry-dome.
I'd say it's about as smart as (insert interest group) turning down medical help from a whale biologist.

What is so difficult to understand about people not wanting to be preached at by religion? For whatever odd reason, people are naturally resistant to being told their path in life is doomed or a waste. If anyone has "bonus" sensitivity to this I'd think it would be Christians.
__________________
There are a vast number of people who are uninformed and heavily propagandized, but fundamentally decent. The propaganda that inundates them is effective when unchallenged, but much of it goes only skin deep. If they can be brought to raise questions and apply their decent instincts and basic intelligence, many people quickly escape the confines of the doctrinal system and are willing to do something to help others who are really suffering and oppressed." -Manufacturing Consent: Noam Chomsky and the Media, p. 195
cyrnel is offline  
Old 11-14-2006, 12:04 PM   #8 (permalink)
Darth Papa
 
ratbastid's Avatar
 
Location: Yonder
Quote:
Originally Posted by jorgelito
I don't know man, I mean, the gifts are a nice gesture. It should be up to the parent to decide if they want it or not.
Well, but think about the logistical challenge of that.

Suddenly you don't just have big boxes of pre-wrapped, generic gifts that any child can get and appreciate. Suddenly you have to have some set aside for special looking at and questions. You've got to manage a quick little interview with each parent before giving the gift to the child, make sure none of them accidentally get the wrong thing. Your staff requirements just went way up, as well as your PR liability. It's a whole big hassle that only distracts from the stated mission of TfT.
ratbastid is offline  
Old 11-14-2006, 12:05 PM   #9 (permalink)
All important elusive independent swing voter...
 
jorgelito's Avatar
 
Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia
I don't agree with you there. Also your analogy doesn't fit at all (at least I don't see it).

First of all, the doll doesn't tell anyone their path in life is doomed or a waste (it's possible but we don't have the facts). I can understand if someone doesn't want to have a Jesus doll but it's a matter of choice. If you read my post, you will see that I believe it should be up to the parent to decide if they want it or not.

As for preaching, one could argue that a Barney doll or Sesame Street preaches also. All that love and what-not.

If they don't like a "gift", then they can either turn it down or not accept it whatever. Did anyone consider that some of the kids might want that doll? If people are going to be overly sensitive about these things, then they should also turn down Barbie dolls as being sexually offensive and racist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ratbastid
Well, but think about the logistical challenge of that.

Suddenly you don't just have big boxes of pre-wrapped, generic gifts that any child can get and appreciate. Suddenly you have to have some set aside for special looking at and questions. You've got to manage a quick little interview with each parent before giving the gift to the child, make sure none of them accidentally get the wrong thing. Your staff requirements just went way up, as well as your PR liability. It's a whole big hassle that only distracts from the stated mission of TfT.
Hmmm...you have a point there. I really have no idea how these things work. I saw a toy drive once where they just had people come up to a truck and pick out toys so I assumed that's how they work. Also, every year when they have toy drives, they always want it to be unwrapped. I mean think about it, how do you separate boy toys from girl toys then right?

At the end of the day, it just seems silly to turn down someone's goodwill and charity.

Last edited by jorgelito; 11-14-2006 at 12:09 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
jorgelito is offline  
Old 11-14-2006, 12:09 PM   #10 (permalink)
Winter is Coming
 
Frosstbyte's Avatar
 
Location: The North
Think cymel pretty much said it all.
Frosstbyte is offline  
Old 11-14-2006, 12:10 PM   #11 (permalink)
<3 TFP
 
xepherys's Avatar
 
Location: 17TLH2445607250
jorgelito,

You don't get to choose what you get... it's not Toys R Us. The charity gives x gifts per child per family and that's that. Neither the parents nor the children get to choose a Tonka Truck or a Barbie (or a talking Jesus). The possibility to offend with a Furby is far smaller than with a talking Jesus doll.
__________________
The prospect of achieving a peace agreement with the extremist group of MILF is almost impossible...
-- Emmanuel Pinol, Governor of Cotobato


My Homepage
xepherys is offline  
Old 11-14-2006, 12:19 PM   #12 (permalink)
All important elusive independent swing voter...
 
jorgelito's Avatar
 
Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia
Quote:
Originally Posted by xepherys
jorgelito,

You don't get to choose what you get... it's not Toys R Us. The charity gives x gifts per child per family and that's that. Neither the parents nor the children get to choose a Tonka Truck or a Barbie (or a talking Jesus). The possibility to offend with a Furby is far smaller than with a talking Jesus doll.
Ah, I see, I see. I guess each charity is different then. Then poor little boy who gets the Barbie then LOL!

Is Toys for Tots a Christmas thing? It just occurred to me if it's a Christmas thing, then there should be zero chance of offending Jewish and Muslim kids. All my previous examples and experiences are based on a Christmas toy drive thingy.
jorgelito is offline  
Old 11-14-2006, 12:21 PM   #13 (permalink)
...is a comical chap
 
Grasshopper Green's Avatar
 
Location: Where morons reign supreme
"The idea was for them to be three-dimensional teaching tools for kids," La Roe said. "I believe as a churchgoing person, anyone can benefit from hearing the words of the Bible."

Teaching tool? Tell that to the atheist, Jewish, Muslim, or any non-Christian household that receives the doll. The specifics of Toys for Tots is a toy that a boy OR girl could play with, because they don't have the resources to be separating the gifts for any reason. I agree, Toys did the right thing.
__________________
"They say that patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings; steal a little and they throw you in jail, steal a lot and they make you king"

Formerly Medusa
Grasshopper Green is offline  
Old 11-14-2006, 12:24 PM   #14 (permalink)
<3 TFP
 
xepherys's Avatar
 
Location: 17TLH2445607250
Quote:
Originally Posted by jorgelito
Ah, I see, I see. I guess each charity is different then. Then poor little boy who gets the Barbie then LOL!

Is Toys for Tots a Christmas thing? It just occurred to me if it's a Christmas thing, then there should be zero chance of offending Jewish and Muslim kids. All my previous examples and experiences are based on a Christmas toy drive thingy.
Hmm, that's a really good point... Christmas gifts shouldn't offend non-Christians since they wouldn't likely participate in Christmas. However, I think Toys for Tots may also encompass other "holiday season" holiday's as well. Also, many atheists and agnostics celebrate Christmas as a non-religious, tradition-based holiday. *shrug* It's a thought though...
__________________
The prospect of achieving a peace agreement with the extremist group of MILF is almost impossible...
-- Emmanuel Pinol, Governor of Cotobato


My Homepage
xepherys is offline  
Old 11-14-2006, 12:52 PM   #15 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Carno's Avatar
 
I bet the Jesus doll is white too...
Carno is offline  
Old 11-14-2006, 12:54 PM   #16 (permalink)
Addict
 
Deltona Couple's Avatar
 
Location: Spring, Texas
YAHOOOOO!!! Another thread where I actually have experience in the area! I was in the Marine Corps for 8 years, and helped out on the drive, and the distribution. The process is simplified where you bring an UNWRAPED toy, it can be gender specific, or not, doesn't matter. Next step, we go thru the toys to make sure there is no religious content...this includes Bibles of any religion, or toys oriented towards religion. Next they are sorted by gender, or non-gender, and by age groups(we bring toys to any age child) After this is done, they are then wrapped by one of the local charities, with a tag stating gender and age group. The distribution centers are either ran by the Marines, or a local charity group, who then distributes anywhere from 3 to 5 toys per child in some cases, depending on apparent demand, and how well the drive did. So the parents have no idea what the gifts are either, since they are already wrapped.
__________________
"It is not that I have failed, but that I have found 10,000 ways that it DOESN'T work!" --Thomas Edison
Deltona Couple is offline  
Old 11-14-2006, 01:13 PM   #17 (permalink)
All important elusive independent swing voter...
 
jorgelito's Avatar
 
Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deltona Couple
YAHOOOOO!!! Another thread where I actually have experience in the area! I was in the Marine Corps for 8 years, and helped out on the drive, and the distribution. The process is simplified where you bring an UNWRAPED toy, it can be gender specific, or not, doesn't matter. Next step, we go thru the toys to make sure there is no religious content...this includes Bibles of any religion, or toys oriented towards religion. Next they are sorted by gender, or non-gender, and by age groups(we bring toys to any age child) After this is done, they are then wrapped by one of the local charities, with a tag stating gender and age group. The distribution centers are either ran by the Marines, or a local charity group, who then distributes anywhere from 3 to 5 toys per child in some cases, depending on apparent demand, and how well the drive did. So the parents have no idea what the gifts are either, since they are already wrapped.
Awesome, thanks for the insight Deltona. Good to hear from a first-hand experience. That makes more sense now.

One question, are these drives just for Christmas or is it ongoing? If so, do they remove any reference to Christmas, or Santa so as not to offend anyone? I think they started doing this at schools too (EX: Holiday Drive instead of Christmas).

In my experience, the staffers always wore Santa hats (for a Christmas toy drive that is).

In the end though, I think it's the spirit of giving that's important here instead of the silly PCness.
jorgelito is offline  
Old 11-14-2006, 01:45 PM   #18 (permalink)
32 flavors and then some
 
Gilda's Avatar
 
Location: Out on a wire.
I can't really see why not distributing the Jesus dolls would be a problem. Imagine that it was a Buddha reciting Buddhist teachings or a Wiccan pentacle that played neo-Pagan recordings. It would hardly be a blip, except for the condemnation of the group attempting to force their belief system on others.
__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert
Gilda is offline  
Old 11-14-2006, 01:52 PM   #19 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Location: Chicago
I want to address the "surprise and disappoint[ment]" faced by Michael La Roe.

They knew exactly what they were doing when they offered to donate the buddy christs to Toys for Tots. Feigning surprise is tacky on his part. Common sense would tell us that one2believe decided it would be wonderful to spread the word of Jesus by donating all these wonderful teaching tools to poor kids around the country. They knew they would be turned down and knew they would use this to again say something like, "Help! Help! I'm being oppressed!"

Also, why do they work on batteries? Why can't they work on faith? That way the little poor kids can be told, "If it doesn't work, it's because you're a heathen. You don't believe in Baby Jesus enough."
__________________
"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses
JumpinJesus is offline  
Old 11-14-2006, 02:11 PM   #20 (permalink)
All important elusive independent swing voter...
 
jorgelito's Avatar
 
Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia
Quote:
Originally Posted by JumpinJesus
I want to address the "surprise and disappoint[ment]" faced by Michael La Roe.

They knew exactly what they were doing when they offered to donate the buddy christs to Toys for Tots. Feigning surprise is tacky on his part. Common sense would tell us that one2believe decided it would be wonderful to spread the word of Jesus by donating all these wonderful teaching tools to poor kids around the country. They knew they would be turned down and knew they would use this to again say something like, "Help! Help! I'm being oppressed!"

Also, why do they work on batteries? Why can't they work on faith? That way the little poor kids can be told, "If it doesn't work, it's because you're a heathen. You don't believe in Baby Jesus enough."
Interesting theory, do you have any evidence to back this assertion up?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JumpinJesus
I want to address the "surprise and disappoint[ment]" faced by Michael La Roe.

They knew exactly what they were doing when they offered to donate the buddy christs to Toys for Tots. Feigning surprise is tacky on his part. Common sense would tell us that one2believe decided it would be wonderful to spread the word of Jesus by donating all these wonderful teaching tools to poor kids around the country. They knew they would be turned down and knew they would use this to again say something like, "Help! Help! I'm being oppressed!"

Also, why do they work on batteries? Why can't they work on faith? That way the little poor kids can be told, "If it doesn't work, it's because you're a heathen. You don't believe in Baby Jesus enough."
Interesting theory, do you have any evidence to back this assertion up?

Or it could be just one organization donating an item for a charity.

They got turned down, that's it.

End of story.

Last edited by jorgelito; 11-14-2006 at 02:12 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
jorgelito is offline  
Old 11-14-2006, 02:15 PM   #21 (permalink)
Junkie
 
kutulu's Avatar
 
It smells like a publicity stunt to me. Maybe I'm just a cynic but think it's quite probable that the guy knew that T4T would reject the toys because of their religious content. Now they are able to:

1) Cry foul on T4T because they are trying to take Christ out of Christmas
2) Let the public know about their product in hopes that parents will buy this for their kids, and finally,
3) Hope that Christian charity groups and people that buy toys for those groups will buy the toys and donate them.

Brilliant.
kutulu is offline  
Old 11-14-2006, 02:32 PM   #22 (permalink)
Getting it.
 
Charlatan's Avatar
 
Super Moderator
Location: Lion City
I agree.

This a win win for donating company. If the toys were accepted they get to prosthletyze if they are not, they get to open another front in the war on Christmas.
__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke
Charlatan is offline  
Old 11-14-2006, 02:35 PM   #23 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Location: Chicago
Quote:
Originally Posted by jorgelito
Interesting theory, do you have any evidence to back this assertion up?



Interesting theory, do you have any evidence to back this assertion up?

Or it could be just one organization donating an item for a charity.

They got turned down, that's it.

End of story.
By it's very definition, an opinion is unprovable. But I'll say it again, just because I enjoy saying it so much. They knew exactly what they were doing. Their feigned surprise and disappointment is a ruse.

And I still say it should run on faith, not batteries.
__________________
"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses
JumpinJesus is offline  
Old 11-14-2006, 02:52 PM   #24 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Carno's Avatar
 
Religious people always have an agenda. They didn't want to donate those toys so that kids could have fun with them, they wanted to donate those toys so they could spread their disease and/or have a publicity stunt.

Now the religious nutjobs can call for a boycott on Toys for Tots
Carno is offline  
Old 11-14-2006, 03:19 PM   #25 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Infinite_Loser's Avatar
 
Location: Lake Mary, FL
Quote:
Originally Posted by JumpinJesus
Also, why do they work on batteries? Why can't they work on faith? That way the little poor kids can be told, "If it doesn't work, it's because you're a heathen. You don't believe in Baby Jesus enough."
"Poor little kids", huh?

I'd be willing to bet that the children receiving these toys wouldn't be the least bit offended by their religious context, primarily because they'd be too young to understand them. They'd simply be happy to receive a free toy.

People are always making mountains out of molehills.
__________________
I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

Last edited by Infinite_Loser; 11-14-2006 at 03:22 PM..
Infinite_Loser is offline  
Old 11-14-2006, 03:31 PM   #26 (permalink)
Getting it.
 
Charlatan's Avatar
 
Super Moderator
Location: Lion City
As a parent, I would be deeply offended if someone started trying to convert my child to any religion.

There is no molehill here.

It is just being polite.

Would it have been better if it had have been any one of the following toys:

A talking George W. Bush: "Stay the Course!" "Mission Accomplished"
A talking Buddha: "Peace" "Your possessions chain you to the material world"
A talking Terrorist: "I'm getting some virgin tail! Allah Ahkbar!"

The answer is you don't give political/religious toys to a charity.
__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke
Charlatan is offline  
Old 11-14-2006, 03:44 PM   #27 (permalink)
Insane
 
Tamerlain's Avatar
 
Location: Victoria
Quote:
"I believe as a churchgoing person, anyone can benefit from hearing the words of the Bible."
I can't believe I missed this earlier. Of course as a "churchgoing person" he's going to believe that! If I'm a Muslim then of course I'm going to believe anyone can benefit from the words of the Koran - and we could go on like this with every religion and their teachings.

-Tamerlain
__________________
I never let school interfere with my education.
Tamerlain is offline  
Old 11-14-2006, 03:55 PM   #28 (permalink)
 
abaya's Avatar
 
Location: Iceland
Is it just me, or is this thread split down partisan lines?
__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.

--Khalil Gibran
abaya is offline  
Old 11-14-2006, 03:59 PM   #29 (permalink)
Crazy
 
I would very much like to know if Carno were being sarcastic. I don't know enough about any of the people here yet to be able to tell for sure. If not your post was very offensive. Many religious people are not only not nut jobs, but quite sane and some are even well educated. In fact there are even some scientists that profess a faith in religion. I think all people that lump members of any large grouping (such as religion and gender) and make stereotypical offensive statements based on that grouping are nut jobs, though I do admit it would be considered offensive to state that.

Christmas is a religious holiday. I can't imagine anyone getting upset about receiving Jewish religious toys for Chanukah. This is like getting mad at people for giving away free costumes at Halloween- it's an expected part of the holiday, because it is where the holiday stems from.

Now if you want to argue that Christmas and Easter should not be supported in any way by the government, this includes closing of government agencies and schools, I might be able to agree with the arguments. But the Marines, as a whole organization, by giving gifts for ANY religious holiday, are already involved in promoting the religion that the holiday celebrates.

As for whether this was a publicity stunt or not, I dunno. It would certainly not be the first time that a company, regardless of whether it is religious in nature or not, had pulled something of the sort. It’s the American Way.
__________________
~~^~<@Xera @>~^~~


"A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing." ~Erno Philips
Xera is offline  
Old 11-14-2006, 04:00 PM   #30 (permalink)
Junkie
 
kutulu's Avatar
 
Everything is split down partisan lines these days.
kutulu is offline  
Old 11-14-2006, 04:00 PM   #31 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Infinite_Loser's Avatar
 
Location: Lake Mary, FL
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlatan
As a parent, I would be deeply offended if someone started trying to convert my child to any religion.
If you're so concerned then take the toy away from your child.

I still think it's a case of people making a mountain out of a molehill.
__________________
I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.
Infinite_Loser is offline  
Old 11-14-2006, 04:10 PM   #32 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Location: Chicago
Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser
"Poor little kids", huh?
Nope, "little poor kids."
Remember, intent matters. My wording implies a certain amount of cynicism directed at those who think that these kids are in such dire straits that they just beam when us upper middle class philanthropists give to them so altruistically. Hell, I'll bet they're just happy knowing we acknowledge them. We don't need to give them toys. But this is far off topic, and a lot of people at TFP hate semantic debates, sooo....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite Loser
I'd be willing to bet that the children receiving these toys wouldn't be the least bit offended by their religious context, primarily because they'd be too young to understand them. They'd simply be happy to receive a free toy.

People are always making mountains out of molehills.
To answer this, I defer to Charlatan's post since this is pretty much what I would say but I would like to add:

Would it be okay if I donated thousands of Anton LaVey talking dolls that spouted things like, "There is no heaven; there is no hell, except here on earth"? I'm sure there would be no uproar at all over that. Would I be allowed to act surprised and disappointed when they were returned to me?
__________________
"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses
JumpinJesus is offline  
Old 11-14-2006, 04:26 PM   #33 (permalink)
32 flavors and then some
 
Gilda's Avatar
 
Location: Out on a wire.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser
If you're so concerned then take the toy away from your child.

I still think it's a case of people making a mountain out of a molehill.
I agree there. If the Marines didn't want to take their donation, they shouldn't have raised such a fuss over it.
__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert
Gilda is offline  
Old 11-14-2006, 04:28 PM   #34 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Infinite_Loser's Avatar
 
Location: Lake Mary, FL
Quote:
Originally Posted by JumpinJesus
Nope, "little poor kids."

Remember, intent matters. My wording implies a certain amount of cynicism directed at those who think that these kids are in such dire straits that they just beam when us upper middle class philanthropists give to them so altruistically. Hell, I'll bet they're just happy knowing we acknowledge them. We don't need to give them toys. But this is far off topic, and a lot of people at TFP hate semantic debates, sooo....
Intent matters, you say? Fine then. Prove that they had some alterior motive for distributing the toys. The bottom line is that you can't, as intent is nearly impossible to prove. What we do know is that they toys were donated to TFT for distribution on/around Christmas. Anything else you want to add beyond that is pure speculation and holds about as much water as a cup with no bottom.

Oh. And I also hate semantics.

Quote:
To answer this, I defer to Charlatan's post since this is pretty much what I would say but I would like to add:

Would it be okay if I donated thousands of Anton LaVey talking dolls that spouted things like, "There is no heaven; there is no hell, except here on earth"? I'm sure there would be no uproar at all over that. Would I be allowed to act surprised and disappointed when they were returned to me?
They're sure to be some people offended by the doll while others aren't. Of course, if you're offended by the doll and don't want your child to have it, then take it away from them.

Simple, eh?

I would also like to reiterate a point which has been brought up a few times. What's wrong in receiving a doll of Jesus on a holiday with explicit ties to Christianity? Jesus is one of the staples of Christmas, the other being Santa Clause.
__________________
I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

Last edited by Infinite_Loser; 11-14-2006 at 04:34 PM..
Infinite_Loser is offline  
Old 11-14-2006, 04:37 PM   #35 (permalink)
 
roachboy's Avatar
 
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
jj:

please please please can i have an anton lavey doll?

addendum:

in a case like giving a jesus doll to a muslim family, say, intent is irrelevant.
the inability to acknowledge the simple fact of the family's being muslim points to an obliviousness that no amount of vacant "well i meant well" is going to erase.
it's just stupid.
__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Last edited by roachboy; 11-14-2006 at 04:40 PM..
roachboy is offline  
Old 11-14-2006, 04:48 PM   #36 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Location: Chicago
Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser
Intent matters, you say? Fine then. Prove that they had some alterior motive for distributing the toys. The bottom line is that you can't, as intent is nearly impossible to prove. What we do know is that they toys were donated to TFT for distribution on/around Christmas. Anything else you want to add beyond that is pure speculation and holds about as much water as a cup with no bottom.

Oh. And I also hate semantics.
I think you misunderstood my "intent matters" comment. I was referring to the order of my words, not the intent of Mr. LaRoe. I was going down a semantic road and had to stop myself.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite Loser
They're sure to be some people offended by the doll while others aren't. Of course, if you're offended by the doll and don't want your child to have it, then take it away from them.

Simple, eh?

I would also like to reiterate a point which has been brought up a few times. What's wrong in receiving a religious doll on a religious holiday?
I grew up in a secular household. Neither of my parents were religious (well, that is until they divorced and my mother became a crazy Seventh Day Adventist - but that's a different topic). I grew up knowing Christmas as the holiday where I got lots of presents and ate a lot of chocolate. I can say this, if I got a doll that told me the only way to get to heaven was to be born again, I'd never play with it unless it was to put a firecracker in its ass. I know I know, I'm going to Hell for that, but back to the topic.

If that is what Mr. LaRoe thinks is a neato toy for kids, then he's an idiot and has no concept of what kids want on Christmas. How many letters do you think Santa is getting this year that read:

Dear Santa,
I've been really good this year. Please bring me a PSP, a bunch of Yugi-oh cards, a Dragon Ball-Z Destroyer set, and a talking Jesus doll.
__________________
"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses
JumpinJesus is offline  
Old 11-14-2006, 04:52 PM   #37 (permalink)
All important elusive independent swing voter...
 
jorgelito's Avatar
 
Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia
Quote:
Originally Posted by JumpinJesus
Nope, "little poor kids."
Remember, intent matters. My wording implies a certain amount of cynicism directed at those who think that these kids are in such dire straits that they just beam when us upper middle class philanthropists give to them so altruistically. Hell, I'll bet they're just happy knowing we acknowledge them. We don't need to give them toys. But this is far off topic, and a lot of people at TFP hate semantic debates, sooo....



To answer this, I defer to Charlatan's post since this is pretty much what I would say but I would like to add:

Would it be okay if I donated thousands of Anton LaVey talking dolls that spouted things like, "There is no heaven; there is no hell, except here on earth"? I'm sure there would be no uproar at all over that. Would I be allowed to act surprised and disappointed when they were returned to me?
Ok JJ, that's a fair counter-point (in terms of 'shoe on the other foot' perspective). My disagreement with your post (previous) stems from the point that I don't believe there's any ill-intent here (at least not just yet). If and when it is ever exposed as a publicity stunt then I shall certainly concede. But so far, I agree with the "mountain-out-of-a-molehill" view here. It's a charitable donation. Nothing more. I also agree with gilda and other's contention that it's no big deal. Much ado about nothing...

Roach, why would a Muslim child be receiving a Christmas gift? I think that is a very relevant point. If it's just random gifts for the needy then sure, religious sensitivity would make some sense, just like they should refuse Barbie dolls and Star wars figures (sexist, violent, racist). But if it's a charitable donation for a religious holiday such as Christmas, then a Jesus doll would be highly appropriate. For example, if there was a similar drive for Halloween, should all the costumes that reflect the religion behind Halloween be refused/returned (witch costumes etc)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JumpinJesus
I think you misunderstood my "intent matters" comment. I was referring to the order of my words, not the intent of Mr. LaRoe. I was going down a semantic road and had to stop myself.





I grew up in a secular household. Neither of my parents were religious (well, that is until they divorced and my mother became a crazy Seventh Day Adventist - but that's a different topic). I grew up knowing Christmas as the holiday where I got lots of presents and ate a lot of chocolate. I can say this, if I got a doll that told me the only way to get to heaven was to be born again, I'd never play with it unless it was to put a firecracker in its ass. I know I know, I'm going to Hell for that, but back to the topic.

If that is what Mr. LaRoe thinks is a neato toy for kids, then he's an idiot and has no concept of what kids want on Christmas. How many letters do you think Santa is getting this year that read:

Dear Santa,
I've been really good this year. Please bring me a PSP, a bunch of Yugi-oh cards, a Dragon Ball-Z Destroyer set, and a talking Jesus doll.
Well now, if you're gonna call out Mr. LaRoe for being stupid for not knowing what kids like these days then a whole bunch of people are gonna fall into that category: grandmas for giving socks and underwear, relatives for giving fruitcake, significant others for giving the wrong size/color sweater etc.etc.

Likewise, if you gave me a Barney doll or Tickle-me Elmo doll, I would also be pissed at it for telling me all the time to love everyone etc, or to tickle it. I happen to like the Cartman Talking doll but I bet that some parents would take exception to the things he says. But hey, as long it doesn't speak any religion that's a-ok.

This is like people who get mad at In-N-Out for putting religious quotes on their soft drink cups and food wrappers.

At the end of the day, if it was truly that big of a deal, then take it back.

Whatever happend to beggars can't be choosers.....

Last edited by jorgelito; 11-14-2006 at 04:58 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
jorgelito is offline  
Old 11-14-2006, 05:28 PM   #38 (permalink)
Junkie
 
highthief's Avatar
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
I wonder if Jesus would approve of a talking Jesus doll.

Methinks, not ...
__________________
Si vis pacem parabellum.
highthief is offline  
Old 11-14-2006, 05:46 PM   #39 (permalink)
peekaboo
 
ngdawg's Avatar
 
Location: on the back, bitch
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilda
I agree there. If the Marines didn't want to take their donation, they shouldn't have raised such a fuss over it.
As Deltona pointed out, there are protocols and procedures they follow and anyone donating could easily have found that out. It wasn't the Marines making a fuss, it's the guy trying to ram the dolls down their throats doing such. The TfT's has been a great cause for years and they strive to make it as unoffensive and fair as can be.

Like Charlatan, I'd be offended. We're not talking street urchins with no adults around; yes, the kids might not care or just want to stick a firecracker up the doll's ass, but ultimately it's the parents/guardians choice how to raise those kids, not some Fundy's. And as someone who has donated a great deal of toys both to T4T and the local hospital, I know enough to make the donations as neutral all around as possible.

Actually, I would think Christians would be offended as well, making their supreme icon nothing more than a toy with batteries?
jesus doll I should buy a few, switch the robes to black leather and sell them as Bikers for Christ dolls.....
__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.
ngdawg is offline  
Old 11-14-2006, 06:02 PM   #40 (permalink)
Crazy
 
Quote:
I wonder if Jesus would approve of a talking Jesus doll.

Methinks, not ...
That is a very good question. IMO most people that make money on religion have a far greater chance of going to hell than those that simply don't believe. Kind of the money changers at the temple sort of thing. But like I said before, God hasn't ever seen fit to come knocking on my door to hand me the trophy of understanding, so it's still possible I'm wrong, don't tell my husband I said that though ok? Might make him think I can be wrong other times, and we can't be having that.
__________________
~~^~<@Xera @>~^~~


"A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing." ~Erno Philips
Xera is offline  
 

Tags
jesus, tots, toys


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 11:46 PM.

Tilted Forum Project

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
© 2002-2012 Tilted Forum Project

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 259 260 261 262 263 264 265 266 267 268 269 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360